So obviously the classic wizard would focus on Intelligence to get more spells and boost the save DCs. What if you didn't build a classic wizard though? Do you still want to focus on Intelligence? Can you be effective if you focused on another stat instead?
What I'm getting at is let's say you want to build a swashbuckling wizard. Using only the wizard class, and focusing on being a swashbuckler, how would you do it? Do you still need Intelligence? What if you wanted to make a wizard that was a sneaky mother-f sir! Essentially filling in as the party rogue. Do you still need intelligence and if not, how would you go about doing it? Could you make an effective unarmed combatant who is a wizard?
Is there a level cut off where maintaining the concept isn't going to work anymore? Is there a level where you must be in oder to establish that concept?
Just for fun, I would like to see what people can come up with for wizards that don't focus on Intelligence but are still effective characters that are also fun to play. 20 point buy is probably enough to see what you can do. I'm working on seeing if I can make a two-handed combatant wizard who revels in melee combat.
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I played a dwarven ranger/wizard once, with the intent of going EK. While we were using high-power rolling (4d6 reroll ones or something) I didn't put his highest in Int. So I mostly focused on no-save spells. I think his usual loadout was expeditious retreat, grease, and feather fall. I'm not sure how it would have changed if we had gotten further on in level.
I've done something similiar, granted it was in 3.5 with Wu Jen instead of Wizard, and focused on Strength based combat instead of Dexterity based swashbuckling. Str was high, followed by Con, then Dex, then Int, then Cha, and lastly Wis. My spell list was almost entirely buff spells, like Giant Size (nothin' makes a mage feel more like a man than grappling a Gargantuan Dragon), with a few summons thrown in to aid (Elemental Monolith saw a ton of use). It was a ton of fun to play. The campaign went through to epic levels.
This could be fun. I'll build one later once I get off work and have my books at hand and see what I can come up with.
In 3.5, played a half-ogre with an INT of 15, STR of 24.
Went Wizard / Barbarian / Rage Mage.
Worked pretty well.
Cast Enlarge Self, jump, land on 4 goblins. Goblin squash good. LOL
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I often do not put my best stat in Int for my Wiz (or any other spell caster). Generally I am not looking to create a primary caster, just using some caster levels to help round out the abilities of my character, or just enough levels to get some item creation feats. Spells i do cast are not save dependent (self and group buffs mostly)
I should probably expand just a little on my premise: I'm talking about a single class wizard. No prestige or multiclass.
I'm thinking that at low levels it would be more difficult since you want the extra spells but as you increase in levels you can have more leeway. You can even have more fun with the metamagic feats.
I never play a spellcaster with a 20 in the primary casting stat, even at a 32 point buy (yes, 32 PF point buy). 19 including racial is the highest I will go and even that is unnecessary. You can do fine with less.
If you don't pump your intelligence, you're basically building Draco Malfoy or Hagrid, a third-rate or failed wizard who put all his points into something else--family connections and Charisma for the first, a half-giant template and handle animal for the other.
Can such a character be fun? Sure. Playing the scullery maid can be fun given the right game.
Will the character be effective, either in combat or in the world of wizard politics? Not really, no. Draco and Hagrid couldn't magic their way out of a paper bag, and Draco coasted by on family (presumably there were some actual competent wizards back in the Malfoy family tree) and Hagrid got by on being nice and a personal favorite of Dumbledore (which is better than tenure).
Much as I usually hate minmaxing, my opinion of wizards who don't put all their points into Intelligence is that these are basically the Draco Malfoys of the world, the people who went to wizardry school because their family paid their way and expected them to do it, not that they would ever amount to much. Which is fine for NPCs, or even for certain special PCs, but in general isn't going to fit the mold of someone who's going to take the profession all the way to 20.
Are you seriously suggesting that anything less than int 20 is a scullery maid of a wizard?
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If you don't pump your intelligence, you're basically building Draco Malfoy or Hagrid, a third-rate or failed wizard who put all his points into something else--family connections and Charisma for the first, a half-giant template and handle animal for the other.
What's the dfference between a wizard with a 16 Int and one with an 18 Int?
The 18's DCs work 5% more often and he gets an extra 4th level spell slot.
How much effect does this have in game?
Now how much effect does this have in a game where neither use spells with saves or reach 6th level?
Having less than a 20 does not relegate you to joke status.
Are you seriously suggesting that anything less than int 20 is a scullery maid of a wizard?
Starting with an 18 int, that is one hella smart maid. I wouldn't hire her. Over qualified.
Greg
Depends, what's her Cha? ;)
I am not that smart, but I am smart enough to know that she would have my job in a week, and prolly be running the whole organization in a month. Put her in wizzie school... and send her on adventures.
Greg
Nosh, my character in Monte's last 2E game before 3rd edition, was a wizard modeled after Indiana Jones, complete with whip. He started with a 12 Int. I had to use every single ability score bump to keep up with my highest spell slots (and I recall not being able to cast my 6th-level spells at level 11, had to wait for that +1 at 12th...).
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/DnD_CGT_001.asp
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http://www.wizards.com/dnd/DnD_CGT_001.asp
Off-topic: I always liked Icerazor and Nosh's Energy Whip
In Pathfinder, the minimum casting stat you need for a full caster is 15.
By using that minimum, I find that it makes a character more interesting, mechanically speaking. It sort of removes the "one-trick pony" feel by allowing the character to do something interesting besides their main power.
For example building a Gnome Sorcerer with 20 CON is absolutely hilarious. He can easily have 18 HP at level 1.
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Over the life of a character spanning a 20 level career he will get 5 ability score increases. Thus if you were running a single class wizard you could start with an intelligence of 14, put all your ability score increases into intelligence, and still be able to cast 9th level spells at 20th level. Granted, wizards with a high enough intelligence can start casting 9th level spells at 17th level, so if you wanted to be able to do that then your starting intelligence should be 15.
My first officially generated character for PFOS is an elven wizard (evocation specialist, opposition schools necromancy & enchantment) who has an intelligence of 18 and no ability score below 10. Consistently taking his favored class bonus as a skill point he has 7 skills that he's trained in. Two of them are perception and stealth.
While those aren't class skills for a wizard, it nevertheless makes sense to me for him to have them. First of all, as a wizard, if he can't see something it's harder for him to target it. But with him putting a skill point into perception each level plus the advantages he has as an elf that should solve that problem. As well as making it harder for people to sneak up on him. I also am training him in stealth to give him the ability to try to simply sneak away if things go totally sour. It's not like he's wearing a lot of armor that's going to be making noise when he moves :-)
While I haven't done it with this character, I have another single class wizard (human) who is not only trained in perception and stealth, but sleight of hand as well. The sleight of hand skill is largely used for hiding things on or about his person that he doesn't want people to find. He has taken the bonded item option instead of having a familiar. He wears an obvious, but not too flashy, ring on his right hand. He also wears loose fitting high necked shirts. The ring is just costume jewelry. His bonded item is an amulet worn around his neck that he's hidden as well as he can. Also, if nobody *expects* the wizard to be able to pull off pickpocket type stunts, then there's a higher chance he can get away with them. :-)
One of the other things that I normally do when I'm working with a point buy system is to generate a list in advance that has most of the options I'd want to use under that system on it. Some of the options for a 20 point buy are:
18, 13, 10, 10, 10, 10
18, 12, 11, 10, 10, 10
16, 16, 10, 10, 10, 10
16, 14, 14, 10, 10, 10
16, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12
I am not an "uber optimist" in that I won't drop ability scores for a character below 10 if I can avoid it. Given that I don't see the need for a single class wizard to have a starting intelligence of 20 (especially since buying an 18 just about robs everything else blind) then I go for an option that will let me buy an intelligence of 16 and use a race mod to push it to 18. If I'm going to be making a wizard multiclass character then the first thing I'm going to do is decide how many levels worth of wizard I'm going to want him to end up with. Then I check to see what level spell that would give him access to and use that to determine what the intelligence I want him to have is. Unless there is an overriding reason not to for a particular character design I will normally get an even numbered intelligence score to get the extra skill point as opposed to going to a lower odd number just to meet a feat or a spell requirement.
IMHO the most important thing about designing a character is to sit down and come up with a concept that makes *sense*. While it can be fun to design a character that's uber optimized for a single class/task that's likely to put him at a serious disadvantage if it turns out he can't get the support from the other members of the party that he's depending on. This becomes even more of a consideration in the type of situation you have with PFOS where you may be playing with different groups of people/characters all the time.
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Really anything less than a 20 sucks if you insist on playing optimize or die. Making a wizard with 14 int is still smart but maybe not the best wizard. Does this mean every npc wizard built using the elite array does not know how to cast spells properly. If the race has an int bonus they will start with a 17 as how you would build a wizard. So an 18 is smarter than most wizards which are already smart people. INsulting the npc wizards inteligence is not a smart thing to do.
As cutlass noted, if you are playing a game through to high levels and you want to eventually be able cast all spells, you'll want to start with at least an Int of 15 so you can boost that Int with ability score increases as you level up.
If you're playing a short, low level campaign, you could probably go lower, though I wouldn't go much because you'll get bonus spells and that might be important in a short, low level campaign.
Int factors into five things:
- Whether you get bonus spells for the first few levels of spells. Can make a difference at low levels, almost unnoticeable at high levels.
- The highest level of spells you can cast. Important especially for mid-high level campaigns (IIRC, does not apply to spell trigger items though)
- The height of the DCs of any spells that call for DCs
- How well you can make Concentration checks (CL + Int mod)
- Skill points (since wizards only get 2 otherwise)
So: if your spell list is going to consist of a lot of spells that don't call for saves, or spells that if they do call for saves, still have some effect, and you're sure you are going to stay out of melee (and/or put combat casting and other tactics to use), then you could have a lower-than-typical starting Int for a wizard.
Now mind, in every game that I've played from AD&D to Pathfinder that I can recall, no one EVER started at 1st level with a 20 in any score, even a spellcasting stat. Most spellcasting stats tended to be around 15-17, whether die rolling or point buy (of course, if you rolled an 18, sure you'd probably put it in your spellcasting stat, but that hasn't happened very often). When I hear stuff like, "If you don't start with less than 20 in your spellcasting stat at level 1, you JUST CAN'T PLAY!" I have to wonder if I'm playing an entirely different game.
ETA: Now, if I wanted to play a swashbucklery wizard... well, I'd probably play a bard ;) ... but seriously, sure I'd probably be willing to take a slightly lower than typical int for some dex and charisma or something. It'd depend on the particular concept, but I think it could be done.
Nosh, my character in Monte's last 2E game before 3rd edition, was a wizard modeled after Indiana Jones, complete with whip. He started with a 12 Int. I had to use every single ability score bump to keep up with my highest spell slots (and I recall not being able to cast my 6th-level spells at level 11, had to wait for that +1 at 12th...).
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/DnD_CGT_001.asp
That's exactly what I'm talking about. He looks like he was a lot of fun to play.
Really anything less than a 20 sucks if you insist on playing optimize or die. Making a wizard with 14 int is still smart but maybe not the best wizard. Does this mean every npc wizard built using the elite array does not know how to cast spells properly. If the race has an int bonus they will start with a 17 as how you would build a wizard. So an 18 is smarter than most wizards which are already smart people. INsulting the npc wizards inteligence is not a smart thing to do.
I'm not talking about optimize or die campaigns. I'm wondering if you can make a fun and playable wizard that doesn't use Intelligence as his focus. As I said in the opening post, I'm not talking about the classic wizard. He would definitely want to focus on his Intelligence. So instead of choosing spells that have saving throws, you would focus on other spells. Instead of worrying about high level spells, you would focus on metamagic feats.
I wonder if you could make one that summmons and does other tihngs without saves. You could also focus on summoning. Get augment summoning would help if you do not have that high and intelligence. Buffs could also work. If you focused on summoning and buffs it would work as what would have a save.
So I went through a case of Woodchuck and my core book and worked on a handfull of fun 10th level wizards with Int just high enough to cast their spells. My first attempt was to make an archer out of pure Transmuter with standard WBL. Here's what I have so far:
Dex 24 (16 + 2 Human + 2 Levels + 4 Belt)
Con 18 (15 + 3 Transmuter Enhancement)
Int 15 (13 + 2 Headband)
Wis 10
Cha 10
AC 31
To 17
Ff 25
Fort +14 (3 + 3 Resistance + 2 Rat Familiar + 2 Great Fortitude + 4 Con)
Ref +13 (3 + 3 Resistance + 7 Dex)
Will 10 (7 + 3 Resistance)
CMD 22
HP 87.5 (Avg + Transmuter Con)
Feats: Improved Init., Scribe Scroll (W), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Still Spell (W), Arcane Strike, Deadly Aim, Great Fortitude (or Defensive Combat Training, or Dodge, or Iron Will, or whatever), Quicken Spell (W)
Skills: Haven't messed with them yet.
Gear: +1 Ring of Pro., +1 Amulet of Nat. Arm., +4 Belt of Dex, +2 Headband of Int, +1 Frost Shocking Heavy Crossbow, +4 Mithril Chain Shirt, +4 Buckler, +3 Cloak of Res.
A few things to note; my math may be fuzzy - drinking while character building will do that. The armor has no ACP so non-proficency isn't a problem. There is a small spell failure %. It can mostly be ignored - the spells that are used will be Verbal only or very long duration cast before the armor goes on for the day or after it comes off. Heavy crossbow can be fired every round, Unseen Servent reloads it every round. Str, Wis, Cha can all be lowered to raise Dex, Con, and Int further, if that makes weight a problem, the crossbow can be made Darkwood - I avoided dumping stats even though it would likely improve the character. With a low Int lowering Spellcraft I avoided item creation and took some useful metamagic instead - Still is great for a couple of spells due to the armor, Quicken will be better at higher levels for True Strike, expecially once Vital strike is an option.
Definately not a powerful character by any means, but it should be passable for a prebuilt AP. I only have my core book on me, so no traits or other APG content (my friend is borrowing mine).
Spells Prepared:
Cantrips - Whatever.
1- Unseen Servent (to reload crossbow), Silent Image (probably change this to Gravity Bow once I get to see my APG back), Identify (low spellcraft due to low Int), Reduce Person (+2 to hit for an encounter with only a small damage loss), True Strike
2- Rope Trick, False Life, See Invisibility, Resist Energy, +2 more
3- Greater Magic Weapon (pimp the crossbow a bit more), Keen Edge (pimp the crossbow a bit more), Flame Arrow (pimp the crossbow a bit more), + 1 more
4- Mnemonic Enhancer (True Strike x3 - I'm lazy, sue me), Dim. Door (Verbal only), Stilled Dispell Magic (deal with those pesky Wind Walls), +1 more
5- Overland Flight, Stilled Greater Invisibility, +1 more
I'm still picking spells.
The crossbow, when buffed with all of the long duration spell buffs and used with Arcane Strike, Point Blank Shot, and Deadly Aim is:
+13 1D10+1D6 Fire+1D6 Cold+1D6 Electricity+10 That is an average of 26...ish, I think. Math is hard right now. That about a Schorching Ray damage per shot. Obviously this is a subpar archer compared with just about ANY other class, but I did the best I could with the current materials at hand.
The AC means he will be hit on an average of 13 or better from a CR 10, less often by mooks. His to hit isn't too bad, though he will only hit a CR 10 50% of the time, more often on mooks.
Who wants to double check my impaired math (it isn't that good normally anyway) and improve upon the design? If nothing else it would be cute and fun to play; would probably be better as a Sorcerer. Meh.
Next up I'm going to try a Polymorphing high Str wizard likely a Transmuter again, then perhaps a Summon based Conjurer, then see what I can do with TWF and a THW.
Considering the game math is roughly balanced against elite array I think as long as you have a 15+ as your starting caster stat you should have a relatively high rate of success.
With Humans, Half-Elves, and Elves all potentially getting a +2 to Int (I go with Beta Half-Orc stats), a 15 in Int translates to a 17 which is already +1 to casting stat vs a default wizard.
A starting 20 means that you hit harder as a wizard but a higher rate of success isn't actually required to be an effective character.
Here's an example wizard of what I'm talking about. He's not a standard caster at all. He isn't the best in melee but he can certainly put some hurt on the enemy. This is something I threw together rather quickly. The math is right but I don't think he's optimized at all and he could probably be better.
Male Half-Orc Wizard 10
CN Large Humanoid (Orc)
Init +3; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +12
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DEFENSE
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AC 25, touch 13, flat-footed 23. . (+4 armor, +4 shield, +1 Dex, -1 size, +4 natural, +2 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 92 (10d6+40)
Fort +12, Ref +10, Will +13
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OFFENSE
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Spd 60 ft., Flight (60 feet, Average)
Melee +2 Greataxe +14 (3d6+23/19-20/x3) and
. . Unarmed Strike +12 (1d4+16/20/x2)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Wizard Spells Known (CL 10, 12 melee touch, 8 ranged touch):
3 (3/day) Haste (DC 14)
2 (4/day) Bear's Endurance (DC 13)
1 (5/day) Enlarge Person (DC 12)
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STATISTICS
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Str 17/24, Dex 12/13, Con 14/18, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +5; CMB +13; CMD 27
Feats Arcane Strike, Combat Casting, Craft Wand, Improved Natural Armor, Ironhide, Power Attack -2/+4, Quicken Spell, Scribe Scroll, Wizard Weapon Proficiencies
Traits Focused Mind, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +3, Appraise +3, Bluff +1, Climb +9, Diplomacy +1, Disguise +1, Escape Artist +3, Fly +7, Heal +3, Intimidate +12, Perception +12, Ride +3, Sense Motive +3, Spellcraft +15, Stealth -1, Survival +3, Swim +9
Languages Common, Dwarven, Orc
SQ Augment (+4 ability or +3 AC, 5r) (Sp), Bonded Object: +2 Greataxe (1/day) (Sp), Enhancement, Illusion, Necromancy, Orc Ferocity (1/day), Perfection of Self +5: Strength (10/day) (Su), Physical Enhancement +3: Dexterity (Su)
Combat Gear +2 Greataxe; Other Gear Amulet of Natural Armor +2, Bracers of Armor, +4, Cloak of Resistance, +3, Pearl of Power, 1st Level, Pearl of Power, 2nd Level, Pearl of Power, 3rd Level, Ring of Protection, +2
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Bonded Object: +2 Greataxe (1/day) (Sp) - 0/1
Orc Ferocity (1/day) - 0/1
Perfection of Self +5: Strength (10/day) (Su) - 0/10
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Arcane Strike As a swift action, add +1 damage, +1 per 5 caster levels and your weapons are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Augment (+4 ability or +3 AC, 5r) (Sp) Grant either +4 to an ability score or +4 natural armor by touch.
Bonded Object: +2 Greataxe (1/day) (Sp) DC 20 + spell level to cast spells without the bonded object. Once per day, you can cast any spell in your spellbook for free.
Combat Casting +4 to Concentration checks to cast while on the defensive.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Enhancement Associated School: Transmutation
Flight (60 feet, Average) You can fly!
Focused Mind +2 to Concentration checks
Illusion You must spend 2 slots to cast spells from the Illusion school.
Ironhide You gain a +1 natural armor bonus due to your unusually tough hide.
Necromancy You must spend 2 slots to cast spells from the Necromancy school.
Orc Ferocity (1/day) 1/day, when brought below 0 HP but not killed, you can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. The next round, unless brought to at least 0 HP, you immediately fall unconscious and begin dying.
Perfection of Self +5: Strength (10/day) (Su) At 8th level, as a swift action you can grant yourself an enhancement bonus to a single ability score equal to 1/2 your wizard level (maximum +10) for one round. You may use this ability for a number of times per day equal to your wizard level.
Physical Enhancement +3: Dexterity (Su) +1 bonus to physical ability, +1 per 5 levels (change per day).
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Quicken Spell Cast another spell in the same round you cast this one. +4 Levels.
HP: 130 (33.5/hit, 100.5 on crit, Slash needs 6-7 rounds without crits to single handedly win)
AC: 24 (10 or better to hit, Slash has a 50% hit chance)
Attack: +13-18 (7-12 to hit, enemy has a roughly 50% hit chance)
Average Damage: 33-45 (Slash has 4-6 rounds assuming only half the attacks hit)
Primary Ability DC: 19 (6-9 to pass)
Secondary Ability DC: 13 (2-3 to pass)
Slash is roughly equal to his opposition.
So I went through a case of Woodchuck and my core book and worked on a handfull of fun 10th level wizards with Int just high enough to cast their spells. My first attempt was to make an archer out of pure Transmuter with standard WBL. Here's what I have so far:
So I plugged everything into Hero Lab and this is what I got:
WOODCHUCK CR 9
Male Human Wizard 10
NN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +11; Senses Perception +2
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DEFENSE
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AC 26, touch 17, flat-footed 20. . (+8 armor, +6 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 87 (10d6+40)
Fort +14, Ref +13, Will +10
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +5 (1d3+3/20/x2)
Ranged +1 Shock Crossbow, Heavy +11 (1d10+8/19-20/x2)
Wizard Spells Known (CL 10, 5 melee touch, 10 ranged touch):
5 (2/day) Overland Flight, Invisibility, Greater, Still
4 (3/day) Dimension Door, Dispel Magic, Still, Mnemonic Enhancer
3 (3/day) Magic Weapon, Greater, Flame Arrow, Keen Edge
2 (5/day) Resist Energy, False Life, See Invisibility, Rope Trick, Rope Trick
1 (5/day) True Strike, True Strike, True Strike, True Strike, Identify, Reduce Person (DC 13), Silent Image (DC 13), Unseen Servant
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STATISTICS
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Str 10, Dex 20/24, Con 15/18, Int 13/15, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +5; CMB +5; CMD 23
Feats Arcane Strike, Deadly Aim -2/+4, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Quicken Spell, Scribe Scroll, Still Spell, Wizard Weapon Proficiencies
Skills Perception +2, Sense Motive +2
Languages Common, Draconic, Other Language
SQ +2 to Fortitude saves, Change Shape (10 rounds/day) (Sp), Deliver Touch Spells Through Familiar (Su), Empathic Link with Familiar (Su), Physical Enhancement +3: Constitution (Su), Share Spells with Familiar, Speak with Animals (Ex), Speak With Familiar (Ex), Telekinetic Fist (5/day) (Sp), Transmutation
Combat Gear +4 Mithral Chain Shirt, +1 Shock Crossbow, Heavy; Other Gear Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Belt of Incredible Dexterity, +4, Cloak of Resistance, +3, Headband of Vast Intelligence, +2: -Choose-, Ring of Protection, +1
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Change Shape (10 rounds/day) (Sp) - 0/10
Telekinetic Fist (5/day) (Sp) - 0/5
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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+2 to Fortitude saves You gain the Alertness feat while your familiar is within arm's reach.
Arcane Strike As a swift action, add +1 damage, +1 per 5 caster levels and your weapons are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Change Shape (10 rounds/day) (Sp) Use Beast Shape II or Elemental Body I as a Spell-Like ability.
Deadly Aim -2/+4 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Deliver Touch Spells Through Familiar (Su) Your familiar can deliver touch spells for you.
Empathic Link with Familiar (Su) You have an empathic link with your Arcane Familiar.
Physical Enhancement +3: Constitution (Su) +1 bonus to physical ability, +1 per 5 levels (change per day).
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into combat.
Quicken Spell Cast another spell in the same round you cast this one. +4 Levels.
Share Spells with Familiar The wizard may cast a spell with a target of "You" on his familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on himself. A wizard may cast spells on his familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar's type (magical beast).
Speak with Animals (Ex) Your familiar can communicate with similar animals to itself.
Speak With Familiar (Ex) You can communicate verbally with your familiar.
Still Spell You can cast a spell with no somatic components. +1 Level.
Telekinetic Fist (5/day) (Sp) 30' ranged touch attack, 1d4+5
Transmutation Transmuters use magic to change the world around them.
WBL for level 10 is 62,000. You spent 68,450.
You need to choose two forbidden schools (you have no evocation spells known)
Spells Known to choose:
Level 1: 1
Level 4: 1
Level 5: 3
Spells to Prepare:
Level 0: 4
Level 1: 1
Level 2: 1
Level 3: 1
Level 4: 1
Level 5: 1
Evocation and Enchantment were what I was planning on neglecting. I really can't do math tonight. I keep going over my gear and the numbers keep coming out differently. I go over it again after recovering tomorrow, likely scrapping the gear and starting over. And working up skills. Probably switch him over to the Enhancement subschool once I get my APG back, and see what feats and traits I can pull too.
Bob,
I recently had a DEX18/INT16/STR14 Fighter/Wiz/EK and she rocked. Solid AC, plenty accurate (Elven Curve Blade) and buffs as needed ;)
INT is important, but "20 is the minimum stat for success in any class" is a trap. It assumes that there is only one way to play a type of character. Build your Mage the way you like and enjoy the game. If you 'can't compete' it's because the game is not about competing; it's about playing.
And if you are having fun, then no you are not doing it wrong.
GNOME
Bob,
I recently had a DEX18/INT16/STR14 Fighter/Wiz/EK and she rocked. Solid AC, plenty accurate (Elven Curve Blade) and buffs as needed ;)INT is important, but "20 is the minimum stat for success in any class" is a trap. It assumes that there is only one way to play a type of character. Build your Mage the way you like and enjoy the game. If you 'can't compete' it's because the game is not about competing; it's about playing.
And if you are having fun, then no you are not doing it wrong.
GNOME
This is just a thought exercise. I never worry about having a starting stat of higher than 17 and that's only because I would be using the elite array. That 17 may not be in the generally assumed primary stat either. I build characters that are fun to play, not necessarily the most optimized.
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For many campaigns, or even the "baseline" Pathfinder game (as represented by the pre-generated iconics), you do not "need" to start with a 20 Int at level 1 to be an effective wizard. As many have stated, a single class wizard starting with a 15-17 Int can work just fine.*
*- Note that I tend to use 15-point buy and expect "well rounded" characters instead of hyper-optimized, overly focused "one-trick ponies." And yes, I consider a wizard with 7 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 20 Int, 7 Wis, 7 Cha (an elf would have 16 Dex, 12 Con) a "one trick pony" in that he has extremely limited options except for casting spells and acting as a sage at 1st level (he has a lot of skill ranks but has poor modifiers outside of Dex- and Int- based skills, his Will save is +0, etc.); well, he can hide in the back and shoot his light crossbow, but he can't carry much in the way of ammunition (23 lbs or less for all gear or he's at a medium load).
For a swashbuckler wizard, an elf (or half-elf with the Ancestral Weapon alternate racial trait from the APG or a human using the bonus feat on Martial Weapon Proficiency) would probably be the easiest race to take as they can start with a rapier. 20-point buy: 12 Str, 16 Dex, 12 Con, 15 Int, 10 Wis, 14 Cha (13 Str, 15 Dex for a half-elf or human).
Another possibility is a creepy, but strong necromancer wizard who likes to use a scythe: Human 20-point buy 16 Str (+2 race), 14 Dex, 14 Con, 15 Int, 10 Wis, 8 Cha (I'll occasionally drop one ability score to an 8, if it fits the concept; a necromancer with a low Cha is almost cliche); Martial Weapon Proficiency (Scythe) as one of his 1st level feats; enlarge person and mage armor as two of his starting spells. He's not going to be as good at melee as the fighter, but with a +3 attack bonus and 2d4+4 damage roll (2d6+6, 10 ft reach with enlarge person) he's more competent than the "typical" wizard.
I build characters that are fun to play, not necessarily the most optimized.
Excellent! What are you doing Tuesday and Friday nights? lol
GNOME
I play a sorcerer that gave up max charisma (this is even in a very high point buy) to have 16 int. :)
Her mother always said she should have been a wizard.
I build characters that are fun to play, not necessarily the most optimized.Excellent! What are you doing Tuesday and Friday nights? lol
GNOME
Working :(
Working :(I build characters that are fun to play, not necessarily the most optimized.Excellent! What are you doing Tuesday and Friday nights? lol
GNOME
Preach it, brother. :(
Greg
Working :(I build characters that are fun to play, not necessarily the most optimized.Excellent! What are you doing Tuesday and Friday nights? lol
GNOME
Preach it, brother. :(
Greg
No worries; Durkadurkastan is a hell of a commute anyway ;)
Reaver: I have one of those; nerd girl elemental sorc (from FR 3.5 Bloodline of Fire feat) that was all but raised in a library! :D
GNOME
I do not believe you have to "max out" your int to be effective.. but for the same reason high strength fighters or high wisdom clerics Have high numbers in those stats- i also have a difficult time rationalizing making myself crappier at what it is I do (spell casting) in order to be "more effective" at something I'm not going to be effective at anyway.
A wizard needs int and con. They need at least a +0 wisdom- maybe higher if you want even more of your best save. You don't really need alot of strength and with the number of skill points you get you don't reallly NEED charisma. (afterall- unless you tank it completely you can still come out pretty decently in them from the sheer number of skill points you get).
This isn't to say you ought to "dump everything' for intelligence.. but really- what is your non-multiclass wizard doing besides casting spells? You have half-bab. You aren't archering anything effectively and you aren't engaging in melee with that d6 and no armor.
It just seems that not giving an 18 or 20 for the sake of some other stat that in the long run doesn't do much anyway is just making yourself worse at what you are actually there to do (cast spells) for the sake of something you'll never be good at anyway.
I mean, I do things for story purposes too... but I also want to be competent at what I'm there for. A greatsword melee wizard isn't a pure wizard, and neither is the archery wizard.
The pure wizard is 100% spell caster.. and if you design your pure wizard to do something else then you'll be doing two things badly instead of doing well, the one thing you are supposed to be doing.
Even a design of 'i'm going to buff everyone so I never need to worry about saving throws and SR" is "I can do it better with higher Int so I have more spells to toss around". For a pure, 100% straight no-multiclassing wizard you are either a spell caster or you are.. better off rolling something else. (like a 2nd class, if you are intent on melee or archery or whatever). As long as you are going to 100% full caster route though then you need to do it right.
Can you do it? Sure. Can you do it very well? Not really. Certainly not as well as you Could be doing it- and at the expense of doing something else that you really can not be built very well for.
I'm currently building a Witch. He is starting at level 1 with a 18 intelligence. I just look over it all, and what all it gives.. and can't really justify NOT doing it.
In a lower point buy it would be an 16 (or as low as needed depending on the point buy, of course), but there really is no incentive Not to max it out if you are playing full levels of a full spell casting class.
It'd be like a stealth spec rogue maxing out charisma instead of Dex or a melee focused druid using strength as a dump stat. It just doesn't work for the purpose you are intending.
(for what its worth, my Witch doesn't have a "dump stat".. His lowest score is a 10.. with a 20PB, its 10/12/14/18/11/12)
-S
Don't forget that you gain the upper spell slots regardless of your ability to cast spells of that level so you can use those slots to cast spells with metamagic feats on them (other than heightened).
Selgard, I completely agree with you if you are building a the classic wizard. My question is: can you build a fun and effective wizard that doesn't focus on his Intelligence beyond the minimum needed to fill the concept?
I can build a variety of fighters that focus on things other than Strength. I can build rogues that don't focus on Dexterity. Can other classes be used in unintended ways that are still effective? I am a big fan of building concept characters that are still effective. I love seeing what I can do, especially when I'm told it's not possible. Sometimes it's not possible. Other times it just takes thinking in a different way.
You can build rogues who focus on strength and fighters who focus on dexterity- no problem. They can be very effective.
But building a melee rogue of either variety (dex or strength) and then dumping that stat in favor of Charisma isn't going to yield a very effective combat built rogue. You are in effect saying you are building for combat when you are not.
A stealthy rogue has dexterity as their max stat. Why? Because that is the stat for Stealth. You don't build the uber-stealth rogue with high strength. it just doesn't work out very well. Not to say you can't still max out stealth without a high dex- it just won't be as effective.
(obviously- you Can build it however you want to..).
Myself, as a purely subjective matter for a character I was playing? No, I could not do a low int pure caster wizard. The reason isn't "omg I'm not powerful!". It is because during the campaign I would undoubtedly run out of spells.. and then I'd be left wondering.
if I'd built my full caster as a full caster- would I have the spell I needed right now? if I'd built my character with high int instead of high strength would the group be ok? would I have had that extra dispel or would that X spell i needed have worked instead of being resisted?
Anything can look interesting or even workable in a thought exercise. In an actual game though I want to be effective. Not "God" or super powered or even over powered.. but i don't want the group to look at my wizard and say "a stupid wizard with high strength? Why are you even here?". neat and Rp and all that are all well and good and such- but you Also need a good, solid, effective character. "I chose to do X instead of being a full caster with my full caster" is purposefully choosing to fluff your character up to the detriment of the reason they are actually there in the first place.
Our group isn't full of min-maxed characters and the ones i've brought certainly are Not min-maxed. They haven't been a waste of space either and neither has anyone else's characters.
So for me, I'd say no. I couldn't do it as my character.
Your group, and campaign, and your own opinion may certainly differ however. :)
-S
But building a melee rogue of either variety (dex or strength) and then dumping that stat in favor of Charisma isn't going to yield a very effective combat built rogue. You are in effect saying you are building for combat when you are not.
That's exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not saying to build a wizard that is focused on tons of spells. I'm talking about playing a wizard that uses only a few spells but uses those few spells to enhance his other talents.
Myself, as a purely subjective matter for a character I was playing? No, I could not do a low int pure caster wizard. The reason isn't "omg I'm not powerful!". It is because during the campaign I would undoubtedly run out of spells.. and then I'd be left wondering.
if I'd built my full caster as a full caster- would I have the spell I needed right now? if I'd built my character with high int instead of high strength would the group be ok? would I have had that extra dispel or would that X spell i needed have worked instead of being resisted?
That's kinda the point I'm trying to figure out. I don't know how much fun or effective the characters would be in actual play. I remember it wasn't a problem in 1st and 2nd editions but that's because there wasn't so much benefit from Intelligence. What if you could find a way around those spells/day limitations? What if you used feats like Arcane Talent and Minor and Major Spell Expertise? What if you focused on metamagic feats to increase the benefits of your spells (quickened true strike is a boon to a melee caster)?
Anything can look interesting or even workable in a thought exercise. In an actual game though I want to be effective. Not "God" or super powered or even over powered.. but i don't want the group to look at my wizard and say "a stupid wizard with high strength? Why are you even here?". neat and Rp and all that are all well and good and such- but you Also need a good, solid, effective character. "I chose to do X instead of being a full caster with my full caster" is purposefully choosing to fluff your character up to the detriment of the reason they are actually there in the first place.
I completely agree. I would never suggest sacrificing competence for concept. You have to do both. If you can't create the concept competently then you have failed to build a successful adventurer.
Our group isn't full of min-maxed characters and the ones i've brought certainly are Not min-maxed. They haven't been a waste of space either and neither has anyone else's characters.
That's what I am trying to avoid.
So for me, I'd say no. I couldn't do it as my character.
Your group, and campaign, and your own opinion may certainly differ however. :)
I don't currently have an opinion on the matter. I'm trying to see if my assumptions are correct. I have been proven wrong with other ideas I've had and I don't expect to be right on this, or any other idea. One of the concerns I have with the build I posted and the one that Ringtail is working on is that they may be effective at level 10, but could they have survived long enough to make it to level 10?
Selgard, I completely agree with you if you are building a the classic wizard. My question is: can you build a fun and effective wizard that doesn't focus on his Intelligence beyond the minimum needed to fill the concept?
Fun, sure...effective? Maybe. I certainly think it's a bad idea for a wizard to dump everything but INT and CON for the purposes of boosting INT and CON as much as possible. Especially in the point buy system, the sliding scale really kicks you in the behind if you try for the 20 INT right out the gate.
I'm not a big believer in dump stats, especially STR. Strength isn't just about getting +X to hit and damage, after all. Being able to carry your own gear (and your own share of the loot at the end of the day) is a good thing. A lot of people seem to think the resident fighter is also the resident beast of burden :D
A lot of people seem to think the resident fighter is also the resident beast of burden :D
But, we used party funds and bought him mule cords and a masterwork pack. Honestly, I think he likes to carry stuff. Might as well act like a mule since with such a low charisma he has the personality of an a...ahm...best not go TOO offtopic. :P
Greg
This might be a post for the rules forum, but since metamagic feats actually increase the level of your spells, it may not be possible just to metamagic low level spells to high level slots and be able to cast them. Add to that the need to pick up metamagic feats in the first place, instead of feats that focus on your preferred character ideal, and this isn't the best way to go.
If you are going straight wizard, you MUST start with at least a 14 in your Intelligence after racials, and put every stat boost into Intelligence. Even then, there will be four levels (15th, 17th-19th) where you can't cast from your highest spell slots. The higher your starting Intelligence, the more of your stat increases can go elsewhere, though you need only a (post-racial) 15 starting to use all your slots. If you aren't even going to start with a 14 after racials, there is NO REASON to take 20 levels of Wizard.
Given that, some build using Combat Expertise and some of the Improved X that derive from it would seem to be the best way to go.
This might be a post for the rules forum, but since metamagic feats actually increase the level of your spells, it may not be possible just to metamagic low level spells to high level slots and be able to cast them.
Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: , a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell. Saving throw modifications are not changed unless stated otherwise in the feat description.
I don't see where you think that.