Harsk as a concept was even less optimized than Valeros until the APG came out and offered a Crossbow Fighting style to Ranger. It's still not a great build option but switch hitter crossbow Ranger isn't completely horribad now.
Is Valeros one of the iconics listed for the default party for Serpent's Skull? If he isn't, than the discussion of his survival in that AP is largely moot, as the people likely play the iconics for the entire party won't see him as an option anyway, and if as a DM I had a player who needed a pregen, I would just hand them one from the AP, rather than try to dig elsewhere for one.
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Is Valeros one of the iconics listed for the default party for Serpent's Skull? If he isn't, than the discussion of his survival in that AP is largely moot, as the people likely play the iconics for the entire party won't see him as an option anyway, and if as a DM I had a player who needed a pregen, I would just hand them one from the AP, rather than try to dig elsewhere for one.
My impression is that he is listed for the default party, and that is precisely what prompted our dear OP to begin posting.
Here's my advice: If your character has bad stats, then work with them. Don't get worked up if he bites it. Don't take the game too seriously and don't belittle others if their stats are better or worse than yours. Be cunning like a serpent, and calm like a dove.
Me, my lantern, my dagger, and my ten-foot pole are ready for any dungeon, any time.
Is Valeros one of the iconics listed for the default party for Serpent's Skull? If he isn't, than the discussion of his survival in that AP is largely moot, as the people likely play the iconics for the entire party won't see him as an option anyway, and if as a DM I had a player who needed a pregen, I would just hand them one from the AP, rather than try to dig elsewhere for one.
Yes, Valeros is from the AP. Anyone who plays him is going to get a really rude suprise. His best chance in the latest one is a 50% chance to make a DC 15 Will Save for Daze Monster...a low level effect. Most of the Save DC's are 18 or higher, and his odds of success are 35% or less. Heck, the wizard serpent woman specifically calls out targeting a strong warrior type with Unwilling Ally...his chances of saving are 15%.
Plus he now has the worst AC (beyond the wizard who has no real AC at all), he finally has the strength most fighters have at level 4 or 8, and as I noted, his saves SUCK. Even his fort save. +28 of total saves is horrid. His save stats aren't totally horrible, but his defenses are pitiful, and they are sacrificed to fuel a suboptimal offense...with his diluted stats, he hits less, does less damage.
And I'm not sure what you're looking at, but Valeros doesn't look like he's wearing a breastplate. Half-plate at least, and it could even be a motley form of plate armor. I mean, seriously, you're a TWF fighter, not a ranger...why are you sticking with substandard armor? You got the Dex for a reason.
At level 13, his AC should have been solidly 33-35, and it could be done with little effort...especially if he just used a shield. Getting rid of TW Defense, taking a shield up, would net him +2 AC and a feat! Make that shield +3, get rid of the TWF chain for the shield chain, and he's qualifying for Shield Mastery, and doubling his money on his off hand weapon.
Meh. Sorry, I just irritated at the abuse heaped on poor fighters, and Valeros is pretty iconic in that regard...abused because he can't do the job he's going to be needed to.
The level 10 Serpentfolk fighter in the AP would kick his ass. Similar damage, +5 AC and a DR Valeros can't overcome.
==Aelryinth
The problem here is that, as those who already have seen Serpent's Skull adventures pointed out, (somewhat spoilerish) ** spoiler omitted **
Now, the GM can play the opponents in such a way that they refrain from using their signature abilities. If you're fine with being pampered, you're likely not to have issues with that. Otherwise...
(not a spoiler)
(the ultra nice GM) "Dear PCs, this beholder is half-blind to accomodate your weakness. Enjoy your encounter while I pull my punches."
Now, I am not a good optimizer. Frankly, I suck at optimizing my characters (as a GM, the story is different, but as a player, I often fall into the trap of "concept over common sense"), and that's probably why my 3.x dwarf rogue/ranger is mostly talk.
I'll try to do better when my current character dies... did I mention that I hold the record count of character deaths? I'm not happy about this, either.And so here is my advice: don't suck. You can be cool without being a wimp.
Regards,
RuemereHaving not read the adventure in question I'm going to assume that this refers to a category of attacks that target will saves.
I'm going to call shennanigans on this. Yes.. Fighters have lousy will saves, they always have. But truth be told, ANY character can fail them. Heck... a dominated wizard while less likely to fail such a save can be an even greater threat if he's dominated at the right moment.
An even highly optimised characters can fail because of a poorly timed suckage die roll.
The point being made is that the the icon is very likely to fail them while someone with a strong will save won't. A wizard can technically stand on the front line and hope all the attacks miss his AC, but I doubt anyone will try it. Can the icon make it? Sure. Is he likely to be liability? Yes. That is the issue.
Yes, Valeros is from the AP. Anyone who plays him is going to get a really rude suprise. His best chance in the latest one is a 50% chance to make a DC 15 Will Save for Daze Monster...a low level effect. Most of the Save DC's are 18 or higher, and his odds of success are 35% or less. Heck, the wizard serpent woman specifically calls out targeting a strong warrior type with Unwilling Ally...his chances of saving are 15%.
Out of curiosity, who are the other iconics included? Because my impression of all of the iconics is that by themselves they aren't that good, and require help from their fellow party members to cover their weak spots. Just because they aren't totally self reliant doesn't make them bad; it means they have to work as a team. And while not everyone likes the gritty challenge of scraping through even basic fights, that definitely is feel I get for how the iconics were set up. They are designed to be interesting characters that require team work to survive.
Yes, Valeros is from the AP. Anyone who plays him is going to get a really rude suprise. His best chance in the latest one is a 50% chance to make a DC 15 Will Save for Daze Monster...a low level effect. Most of the Save DC's are 18 or higher, and his odds of success are 35% or less. Heck, the wizard serpent woman specifically calls out targeting a strong warrior type with Unwilling Ally...his chances of saving are 15%.Out of curiosity, who are the other iconics included? Because my impression of all of the iconics is that by themselves they aren't that good, and require help from their fellow party members to cover their weak spots. Just because they aren't totally self reliant doesn't make them bad; it means they have to work as a team. And while not everyone likes the gritty challenge of scraping through even basic fights, that definitely is feel I get for how the iconics were set up. They are designed to be interesting characters that require team work to survive.
Listen, no matter how much you work as a team, there is an exceedingly limited number of ways to block Will-saves that turn you against your own team. Given what you are replying to, I don't even know what point you are trying to make.
My point is that they may well have set it up so it is possible to reduce the number of times that Valeros has to to rely on his saves depending on the other party members' actions. People are making it sound like he is going to have make will saves every single combat, and I find that a little hard to believe. If he is having to make that many will saves that often, the party needs to adjust their tactics to compensate for that threat. If the party is not balanced in such a way as to successfully do that, then the problem may well be the party composition and not weaknesses in the individual builds.
Again, I can understand that not everyone likes the real gritty feel of having even basic combats be challenges that require team work and synergy between characters, but that seems to be what the iconics are set up for.
My point is that they may well have set it up so it is possible to reduce the number of times that Valeros has to to rely on his saves depending on the other party members' actions. People are making it sound like he is going to have make will saves every single combat, and I find that a little hard to believe. If he is having to make that many will saves that often, the party needs to adjust their tactics to compensate for that threat.
Like kick out Valeros? Good idea.
Again, I can understand that not everyone likes the real gritty feel of having even basic combats be challenges that require team work and synergy between characters, but that seems to be what the iconics are set up for.
Please explain what "tactics" are usable to prevent terrible will-save characters from being turned against the party.
Know what situations the party is vulnerable to, and work to avoid them. You cannot tell me that the party is completely incapable of controlling when, where, and who they fight. They might not have a choice all the time, but after a while, they should certainly be able to control key elements on a fairly regular basis.
The other iconics are the Human Wizard, the Human Priestess of Saraenrae, and the Elven Theif.
The latter two are passable. It's hard to go wrong with a cleric, and I think most people would simply point at her spell selection as pretty odd...but changing spell selection on a cleric is no problem.
The theif is okay, with the caveat that she has no skill boosters and thus will be failing her opposed checks half the time, and she has no ranged sneak attack except thrown daggers.
The mage might as well be an archer. He has no defensive spells to speak of; no control spells; precious few utility spells (no TELEPORT? C'mon.) His shtick is direct damage, and he gets 3 levels of 'free' metamagic a day.
Wow. His AC is also a base 18 or something. Heck, he doesn't even have False Life!
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The only way the party can cover Valeros' horrid saves is to make him immune to will save effects...and there's no spell that can do that for a protracted duration. Furthermore, it's a GREAT action for a monster to grab control of him and have him start hacking on the spellcasters, who somehow need to dispel/negate an effect against a fighter with Disruptive and Step Up. Yeah, that'll be easy. Add to that the fact he's the easiest person to INTIMIDATE in the whole party, and I just roll my eyes.
A spellcaster with any brains will grab control of Valeros, throw him against the cleric, move to deal with the wizard while weathering the attacks of the theif, and then double team the cleric and finish off the theif. Then they'll put Valeros' brain in a jar and put the fool out into the world to be useless to more adventurers.
There are many, many ways to build a Fighter, and optimizing them with core feats and gear is not all that hard. This, this is just PAINFUL to see. When you have an 85% chance to be turned against the rest of the party, you are not an asset to your partners, you are a liability. I don't want to admit it, but it's true.
===Aelryinth
The best way for the party to cover weak will saves is to make sure they aren't needed in the first place. Unless the party is stupid enough to give all control of when, where, and how the combats occur to their opponents, then the party can in fact cover that weakness by making sure it comes up at little as possible. If the party is unable to keep any control of combat frequency and location, then the party as a whole as a problem, not just one single member of the party. And frankly, any party that relies on the fighter making the will save as the first line of defense is already dead.
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The best way for the party to cover weak will saves is to make sure they aren't needed in the first place. Unless the party is stupid enough to give all control of when, where, and how the combats occur to their opponents, then the party can in fact cover that weakness by making sure it comes up at little as possible. If the party is unable to keep any control of combat frequency and location, then the party as a whole as a problem, not just one single member of the party. And frankly, any party that relies on the fighter making the will save as the first line of defense is already dead.
It's an AP, not a sandbox. There are quite a few set pieces that happen where and when they happen. Players have absolute control in a sandbox. Published adventures tend not to be so kind about leaving the tracks.
The best way for the party to cover weak will saves is to make sure they aren't needed in the first place. Unless the party is stupid enough to give all control of when, where, and how the combats occur to their opponents,
Lolwhat? Unless they plan to end the combat before it begins, there is NO WAY to mitigate 'natural' mental control capabilities of the enemy that may be expressed in combat using ANY sort of tactics.
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Again, I can understand that not everyone likes the real gritty feel of having even basic combats be challenges that require team work and synergy between characters, but that seems to be what the iconics are set up for.Please explain what "tactics" are usable to prevent terrible will-save characters from being turned against the party.
Protection from X spells boost will saves, as will owls wisdom. If the party knows they're fighting creatures that charm, which they will after the first time, they can cast these spells on their fighter to boost his saves. If you have a a divine and arcane caster that's a single buff from each and provides a +4 to will saves. hell, if the party just casts protection before hand, he can't be dominated. But that doesn't work for your argument, funny because that took me two seconds to come up with.
And a party member with an 16+ wis that can't spare a singe level 1 spell slot by they time your dealing with domination, is actually worse then the guy with the low wis.
Yes you can use Protection from X. The problem with that being what was already pointed out.
You can't control every encounter and that is a minute per level spell.
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Yes you can use Protection from X. The problem with that being what was already pointed out.
You can't control every encounter and that is a minute per level spell.
You don't need it to, it provides a save at the time of casting, you hold it in reserve for when it's needed. Or are we back to every fight he's going to have his will save targeted by a charm effect? oh and then you make a wand, hell you're one of the people who usually expects characters to run around with a wand of cure light wounds, but a wand of prot from evil, that's too much to expect. except for the times when the party is caught completely off guard, they can use the wand right before they go charging in. But I guess that isn't tactical.
It's an AP, not a sandbox. There are quite a few set pieces that happen where and when they happen. Players have absolute control in a sandbox. Published adventures tend not to be so kind about leaving the tracks.
The AP is not so unkind about leaving the tracks that the party can't figure out how to buy time to prepare for, work around, or rearrange at least a few of the fights.
You don't need it to, it provides a save at the time of casting, you hold it in reserve for when it's needed. Or are we back to every fight he's going to have his will save targeted by a charm effect?Yes you can use Protection from X. The problem with that being what was already pointed out.
You can't control every encounter and that is a minute per level spell.
Indeed. It also provides a bonus. So now they are failing the save 75% of the time?
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Indeed. It also provides a bonus. So now they are failing the save 75% of the time?You don't need it to, it provides a save at the time of casting, you hold it in reserve for when it's needed. Or are we back to every fight he's going to have his will save targeted by a charm effect?Yes you can use Protection from X. The problem with that being what was already pointed out.
You can't control every encounter and that is a minute per level spell.
See above, it's a cheap wand.
But what I love is the shifting goalposts, the original question is "Please explain what "tactics" are usable to prevent terrible will-save characters from being turned against the party"
The answer is, have a wand of prot from evil and owls wisdom, or party members willing to cast them when needed. Which then if that fails have a scroll of dispel magic that you keep in reserve for dire straights. Viola fighters liability is greatly reduced. and said precautions can be easily taken by the time the party is fighting enemies that dominate.
Unless you're telling me that every single fight they get into in that AP they'll have to deal with a will save that turns the fighter AGAINST the party, and that all of those fights are surprise fights with no time for preparation, that answers the question.
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It's an AP, not a sandbox. There are quite a few set pieces that happen where and when they happen. Players have absolute control in a sandbox. Published adventures tend not to be so kind about leaving the tracks.The AP is not so unkind about leaving the tracks that the party can't figure out how to buy time to prepare for, work around, or rearrange at least a few of the fights.
A few. You were insinuating they should be able to control most, if not all, or they're crappy players.
It's not every single fight they have to worry about. it's the one where it happens, and the party TPK's. It only has to happen once, and the party is hosed. Or is your spellcaster planning to try and get that spell off as a touch attack on the dominated fighter who is Disruptive and going to take the AoO on you? Also note, it's a touch attack that's going to trigger an AoO, too...Prot/Evil isn't a weapon attack.
And Owl's Wisdom being short term, he's now got only a 65% chance of failure, and you've blown two spells on him with short durations, and there's another fight coming that you can't avoid. just how many times are you going to do this, or is going to be the 5 minute workday for you?
Meh.
==Aelryinth
Creative Director
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Dirty secret time.
We pick iconics for an AP solely based on who we think would look cool illustrated in the pictures, and generally try NOT to use iconics who "starred" in the previous Adventure Path. Whether or not they'd work well as a team or are perfectly suited to excel in every adventure in that AP doesn't figure into that decision much at all. After all, from what we've heard, the MAJORITY of folks who play an AP make their own characters.
In any event, starting with Carrion Crown, the pregenerated iconics aren't going to be part of the AP anymore. We've already stopped putting them in our modules, and no one seems to have noticed.
Oh, I wasn't actually thinking people would play the iconics as a 'team'. But someone might play an iconic as a pick-up character, and so they should be decent at their task. "If you don't have a character available for this AP, use this", type of thing.
Valeros not being decent at his kinda irks me, 'cause I'm a fightery-type.
==Aelryinth
It's not every single fight they have to worry about. it's the one where it happens, and the party TPK's. It only has to happen once, and the party is hosed.
==Aelryinth
As a final note before I depart this thread, I would like to point out that your point applies to all parties in all campaigns. Depending on the party build and the situations they find themselves in, some parties have to worry about it more than others, but ultimately all parties have to practice risk management.
Well, Risk management is based on odds.
Let's say 50% of your encounters result in Will saves (that's actually low at higher levels...it's more like 80%).
Let's say Valeros is going to blow his will save in 75% of those encounters.
That means that in 37.5% of encounters, Valeros is either going to be completely neutralized OR he's going to be turned against the rest of the party, resulting in the party going from 4 to 2, as actions are wasted either freeing him or neutralizing the control...and 2 people trying to handle the rest of the encounter is a recipe for disaster.
If the chance of a will save is 80% per encounter, now fully 60% of the time your enemy is using your fighter as a weapon against you.
That is a recipe for a TPK. At some point, there's going to be a lucky crit, another failed save, and it's all over.
By taking his failure chance down to a mere 50%, now we're at the point where he's a liability only 1 time in 3.
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I would also like to point out that one of the ways to mitigate the odds of this happening is to get into the face of the spellcasters and not let them get the spells off.
Valeros has Disruptive and Step up. He does not have Combat Reflexes, and he does not have any form of enhanced movement, especially flying capability. So the odds are that he can't even reach most intelligent spellcasters to stop them from doing what they want.
And it can be very, very hard to stop spellcasters from getting off their spells. They try really, really hard to get them off, after all!
basically, Valeros' only chance is surprise attacks that put him up against the spellcaster, and hoping they just don't fly away, and that he can make it over the terrain in between. That's one heck of a bet.
==Aelryinth
Just a point to help in future debates. You might want to actually see what the other person is arguing. All of your posts are about Valeros, and only Valeros, when he is not the only person on the field. You give the enemy caster all the intelligence in the world while completing ignoring the capabilities of the party casters. As long as you ignore that, you will never get the point I am trying to make; Valeros is not by himself and he is not going to the the caster's primary threat. Statistics and probability is great on paper, but all your numbers completely ignore that fact that other people in the party have actions as well that the enemy caster has to account for, as well the roll the battlefield itself can play. Until these are factored into the numbers, they aren't going to be any good since the situation for the numbers you so kindly generated actually comes up. I just have a hard time picturing a caster getting the opportunity to force the weak saving throws as much as you seem to think they do if the party fights intelligently on a fairly regular basis; there are too many factors that come into play in actual battles, especially in a jungle where the terrain and environment are going to be major factors.
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Just a point to help in future debates. You might want to actually see what the other person is arguing. All of your posts are about Valeros, and only Valeros, when he is not the only person on the field. You give the enemy caster all the intelligence in the world while completing ignoring the capabilities of the party casters. As long as you ignore that, you will never get the point I am trying to make; Valeros is not by himself and he is not going to the the caster's primary threat. Statistics and probability is great on paper, but all your numbers completely ignore that fact that other people in the party have actions as well that the enemy caster has to account for, as well the roll the battlefield itself can play. Until these are factored into the numbers, they aren't going to be any good since the situation for the numbers you so kindly generated actually comes up. I just have a hard time picturing a caster getting the opportunity to force the weak saving throws as much as you seem to think they do if the party fights intelligently on a fairly regular basis; there are too many factors that come into play in actual battles, especially in a jungle where the terrain and environment are going to be major factors.
Dude, you can have all the tactics and teamwork in the multiverse, and it isn't going to overcome a seriously sub-par character. A liability is a liability no matter how strong everything else is.
Just a point to help in future debates. You might want to actually see what the other person is arguing. All of your posts are about Valeros, and only Valeros, when he is not the only person on the field. You give the enemy caster all the intelligence in the world while completing ignoring the capabilities of the party casters. As long as you ignore that, you will never get the point I am trying to make; Valeros is not by himself and he is not going to the the caster's primary threat. Statistics and probability is great on paper, but all your numbers completely ignore that fact that other people in the party have actions as well that the enemy caster has to account for, as well the roll the battlefield itself can play. Until these are factored into the numbers, they aren't going to be any good since the situation for the numbers you so kindly generated actually comes up. I just have a hard time picturing a caster getting the opportunity to force the weak saving throws as much as you seem to think they do if the party fights intelligently on a fairly regular basis; there are too many factors that come into play in actual battles, especially in a jungle where the terrain and environment are going to be major factors.
The default fighter in any group is the IDEAL candidate to fail a will save. Rogues get slippery mind. Barbarians are harder to affect when raging. Rangers usually have good Wis.
Fighters...have a crappy will save. No class defenses.
And so he's going to be the target of Will save-or-sucks, because the DM is going to play the casters smart, yes? Of course, he could play the enemy stupid and target, say, the cleric with the massive Wis, good Will save, and protective spells, with a Will save, riiiiight.
And unless the spellcasters spend power trying to keep him from being used as a weapon against them, it's going to happen. So...why can't Valeros take care of the problem himself?
Defenses are there because crap happens. Tactics only go so far, and can be used against you as well as for you.
===Aelryinth
I'd borrow a spoiler from 1E and give him a necklace of 8 Amethysts. Wearing this would give him the equivalent of a 23 Wisdom for protection against mental magic (i.e. a +6 Will save), which would be a good start.
==Aelryinth
Minor spoiler here:** spoiler omitted **
Regarding weak-willed fighters:
Playing a stupid stereotype (pun intended) is not a problem usually. Unfortunately for Valeros, he is in for a rough ride this time, and his party is likely to go down along with him.
Given who and what the primary villains of this AP are that's a remarkably safe bet.
Just a point to help in future debates. You might want to actually see what the other person is arguing. All of your posts are about Valeros, and only Valeros, when he is not the only person on the field. You give the enemy caster all the intelligence in the world while completing ignoring the capabilities of the party casters. As long as you ignore that, you will never get the point I am trying to make; Valeros is not by himself and he is not going to the the caster's primary threat. Statistics and probability is great on paper, but all your numbers completely ignore that fact that other people in the party have actions as well that the enemy caster has to account for, as well the roll the battlefield itself can play. Until these are factored into the numbers, they aren't going to be any good since the situation for the numbers you so kindly generated actually comes up. I just have a hard time picturing a caster getting the opportunity to force the weak saving throws as much as you seem to think they do if the party fights intelligently on a fairly regular basis; there are too many factors that come into play in actual battles, especially in a jungle where the terrain and environment are going to be major factors.
All of your "tactics" rely on the opponents having astoundingly poor tactics. Serpent's crown is full to the brim of will saves, primarily charm and compulsion effects, and areas that cannot be taken 1 encounter per day as they take place in complexes with multiple enemy groups in them. Why wouldn't the enemies use manipulation magic on fighter type that can disrupt the casters.
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Just a point to help in future debates. You might want to actually see what the other person is arguing. All of your posts are about Valeros, and only Valeros, when he is not the only person on the field. You give the enemy caster all the intelligence in the world while completing ignoring the capabilities of the party casters. As long as you ignore that, you will never get the point I am trying to make; Valeros is not by himself and he is not going to the the caster's primary threat. Statistics and probability is great on paper, but all your numbers completely ignore that fact that other people in the party have actions as well that the enemy caster has to account for, as well the roll the battlefield itself can play. Until these are factored into the numbers, they aren't going to be any good since the situation for the numbers you so kindly generated actually comes up. I just have a hard time picturing a caster getting the opportunity to force the weak saving throws as much as you seem to think they do if the party fights intelligently on a fairly regular basis; there are too many factors that come into play in actual battles, especially in a jungle where the terrain and environment are going to be major factors.All of your "tactics" rely on the opponents having astoundingly poor tactics. Serpent's crown is full to the brim of will saves, primarily charm and compulsion effects, and areas that cannot be taken 1 encounter per day as they take place in complexes with multiple enemy groups in them. Why wouldn't the enemies use manipulation magic on fighter type that can disrupt the casters.
Yep. Standard "he'll do fine, I'll just play the bad guys like idiots" gloss over.
Dirty secret time.
We pick iconics for an AP solely based on who we think would look cool illustrated in the pictures, and generally try NOT to use iconics who "starred" in the previous Adventure Path. Whether or not they'd work well as a team or are perfectly suited to excel in every adventure in that AP doesn't figure into that decision much at all. After all, from what we've heard, the MAJORITY of folks who play an AP make their own characters.
In any event, starting with Carrion Crown, the pregenerated iconics aren't going to be part of the AP anymore. We've already stopped putting them in our modules, and no one seems to have noticed.
You guys make MODULES!?!?!?
You may be right on the unusually high number of will saves required for the AP; I haven't seen it so I don't know. But too many people seem to think that brute force is the only way to get things done, and decide that party tactics don't make any difference at all. If the AP requires so many saving throws that he is still being forced to make them every single combat irregardless of party tactics than the party has a far bigger problem than weak saving throws; it has the problem that as a party it is unable to do what it needs to do to survive. That is not a problem that is going to be resolved just by killing off Valeros, and replacing him with a "properly built" fighter. I am not saying play the enemies stupid, just that the party lives or dies as a whole, based on how well they cover their individual and collective weaknesses. If the party casters cant keep enemy casters occupied or the party can't figure out how to use terrain to interrupt line of sight, which is required for just about every single enchantment effect, that is not just the dumb fighter's fault, it is everyone's fault. All I'm saying is quit blaming one guy for the entire party's failure; this game is a team effort, and anything serious enough to potentially cause a tpk is a team problem, which the team has to either overcome or die. You may well be right that this is the wrong team for this AP, but that doesn't change the fact the team is the problem, not the individual characters.
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You may well be right that this is the wrong team for this AP, but that doesn't change the fact the team is the problem, not the individual characters.
Actually, the OP was pretty much talking about this AP specifically. And how Valeros is uniquely a liability in this AP, before it got to be a more general discussion.
You may be right on the unusually high number of will saves required for the AP; I haven't seen it so I don't know. But too many people seem to think that brute force is the only way to get things done, and decide that party tactics don't make any difference at all. If the AP requires so many saving throws that he is still being forced to make them every single combat irregardless of party tactics than the party has a far bigger problem than weak saving throws; it has the problem that as a party it is unable to do what it needs to do to survive. That is not a problem that is going to be resolved just by killing off Valeros, and replacing him with a "properly built" fighter. I am not saying play the enemies stupid, just that the party lives or dies as a whole, based on how well they cover their individual and collective weaknesses. If the party casters cant keep enemy casters occupied or the party can't figure out how to use terrain to interrupt line of sight, which is required for just about every single enchantment effect, that is not just the dumb fighter's fault, it is everyone's fault. All I'm saying is quit blaming one guy for the entire party's failure; this game is a team effort, and anything serious enough to potentially cause a tpk is a team problem, which the team has to either overcome or die. You may well be right that this is the wrong team for this AP, but that doesn't change the fact the team is the problem, not the individual characters.
What we are saying is the icon is not ready for the AP's, and there is nothing any of his team mates can do to save him, and when you have one character not pulling their weight it has a big affect. V is 1/4 of the team. That is a big loss if he is charmed or dominated. I have been in games where replacing one member has made a big difference so many times it is that one person bringing the party down. I have been the one playing that character before. I simply asked the DM can I make a new characters, and things got a whole lot easier.
What we are saying is the icon is not ready for the AP's, and there is nothing any of his team mates can do to save him, and when you have one character not pulling their weight it has a big affect. V is 1/4 of the team. That is a big loss if he is charmed or dominated. I have been in games where replacing one member has made a big difference so many times it is that one person bringing the party down. I have been the one playing that character before. I simply asked the DM can I make a new characters, and things got a whole lot...
You say he's a big loss, but than complain that his offensive capabilities are just as weak as his defenses. If that's the case I don't really see how him being charmed or dominated is really going to do much to the group. Based on all the arguments I've heard complaining about him, I would run him as being the obvious target that the party keeps with them as a trap for enemy spell casters to waste spells and actions on; after all, if he's not a threat to an enemy spell caster, he's equally not a threat to the party casters, who have precise knowledge on what to do to make him unable to do anything against them. I just find it funny how he can be a complete nonthreat to the enemy, and then turn around and somehow have the ability to possibly cause a tpk if dominated. For this to be true, you would have to run the party casters as complete idiots who are incapable of understanding their party member's weakness. If you are going to assume that one group of casters is intelligent to make him a liability, you have to assume all casters are intelligent enough to know how to use him to their advantage, this includes friendly ones.
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You say he's a big loss, but than complain that his offensive capabilities are just as weak as his defenses. If that's the case I don't really see how him being charmed or dominated is really going to do much to the group. Based on all the arguments I've heard complaining about him, I would run him as being the obvious target that the party keeps with them as a trap for enemy spell casters to waste spells and actions on; after all, if he's not a threat to an enemy spell caster, he's equally not a threat to the party casters, who have precise knowledge on what to do to make him unable to do anything against them. I just find it funny how he can be a complete nonthreat to the enemy, and then turn around and somehow have the ability to possibly cause a tpk if dominated. For this to be true, you would have to run the party casters as complete idiots who are incapable of understanding their party member's weakness. If you are going to assume that one group of casters is intelligent to make him a liability, you have to assume all casters are intelligent enough to know how to use him to their advantage, this includes friendly ones.
What we are saying is the icon is not ready for the AP's, and there is nothing any of his team mates can do to save him, and when you have one character not pulling their weight it has a big affect. V is 1/4 of the team. That is a big loss if he is charmed or dominated. I have been in games where replacing one member has made a big difference so many times it is that one person bringing the party down. I have been the one playing that character before. I simply asked the DM can I make a new characters, and things got a whole lot...
I'm glad you weren't my C.O. when I was in the Army. See, there's this thing called action economy. Normally, you'd have four party members going after the opposition. If Valeros is dominated (or whatever) that is one less person attacking the enemy and one more person attacking the party. In an encounter that still assumes four party members.
Great, the party knows old Valeros' weaknesses. Every action they take to counter him is one they're not taking to defeat the enemy. And, every attack Valeros takes against the party is an attack not taken against the enemy. And the enemy is still attacking. If 1/4 of a S.E.A.L. team all of the sudden turned on the team, it wouldn't matter that they know their poor dominated buddy's weaknesses, they'd be dead. And that is directly analogous.
Having a party member turn is disastrous, just about always.
Well, unless your GM plays the enemies like their idiots.
Unless the GM is doing some serious metagaming, I seriously doubt he's always going to target Valeros because of his terribad Will save.
Sometimes the enemies ARE idiots, btw.
If it's that big of a problem, just have the party wizard dominate Valeros himself. Than any dominate or charm effects have to overcome the party caster, not Valeros. It may not be a strictly good act, but I don't think at that point the party is going to care. I still cannot see how if Valeros is such a nonthreat to the enemy caster, he is suddenly going to be a major thorn for the party. Just plan on him being useless for anything but bait, and make plans accordingly. If he proves to actually be useful, all the better. Dominate him, treat him like as trap bait, force enemy casters to expend their resources to make him a threat to the party, or whatever other methods the party can come up with to use him to the party's advantage. Unless he's paired with the paladin, I really don't see his party members hesitating to do any of these things. If the enemy is going to be smart enough to think of it, so should the party.
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Unless the GM is doing some serious metagaming, I seriously doubt he's always going to target Valeros because of his terribad Will save.
Sometimes the enemies ARE idiots, btw.
If I see a 10 Int and a 10 Wis in the stat block, they're average. If, however, they're well into bonus level, not a chance. Well, maybe at low levels, experience counts, but by 10th level? They should know a thing or two.
I don't do Dr. Evil BBEGs, I do Scott Evil BBEGs. My players expect nothing less.
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If it's that big of a problem, just have the party wizard dominate Valeros himself. Than any dominate or charm effects have to overcome the party caster, not Valeros. It may not be a strictly good act, but I don't think at that point the party is going to care. I still cannot see how if Valeros is such a nonthreat to the enemy caster, he is suddenly going to be a major thorn for the party. Just plan on him being useless for anything but bait, and make plans accordingly. If he proves to actually be useful, all the better. Dominate him, treat him like as trap bait, force enemy casters to expend their resources to make him a threat to the party, or whatever other methods the party can come up with to use him to the party's advantage. Unless he's paired with the paladin, I really don't see his party members hesitating to do any of these things. If the enemy is going to be smart enough to think of it, so should the party.
I'm not sure, but I think someone said the wizard had a really LOUSY, blaster heavy spell book. Not much help there. Which brings up the other point: they don't test the AP with the iconics. James basically said they just throw them in there as an afterthought, and they'll be gone all together in future releases.
Right now, they're just filling space. Poorly built, because there's no point in making an effort (Jacobs again: "We assume y'all are making your own characters" - paraphrased), and not even put together with any party synergy in mind (Jacobs again: "It's all about the pics, baby" - paraphrased).
The O.P.'s ultimate point was the iconics are a complete waste of time because they a) cannot do their jobs, and b) set a very bad example of what viable characters look like. Which was supported by one of the devs in a round about way.
Y'all are just arguing to argue, really. It's pretty obvious to everyone else the iconics are weak sisters.
You say he's a big loss, but than complain that his offensive capabilities are just as weak as his defenses. If that's the case I don't really see how him being charmed or dominated is really going to do much to the group. Based on all the arguments I've heard complaining about him, I would run him as being the obvious target that the party keeps with them as a trap for enemy spell casters to waste spells and actions on; after all, if he's not a threat to an enemy spell caster, he's equally not a threat to the party casters, who have precise knowledge on what to do to make him unable to do anything against them. I just find it funny how he can be a complete nonthreat to the enemy, and then turn around and somehow have the ability to possibly cause a tpk if dominated. For this to be true, you would have to run the party casters as complete idiots who are incapable of understanding their party member's weakness. If you are going to assume that one group of casters is intelligent to make him a liability, you have to assume all casters are intelligent enough to know how to use him to their advantage, this includes friendly ones.
What we are saying is the icon is not ready for the AP's, and there is nothing any of his team mates can do to save him, and when you have one character not pulling their weight it has a big affect. V is 1/4 of the team. That is a big loss if he is charmed or dominated. I have been in games where replacing one member has made a big difference so many times it is that one person bringing the party down. I have been the one playing that character before. I simply asked the DM can I make a new characters, and things got a whole lot...
I never said the offense was weak, but it probably is. Even if his offense is weak he can still make caster's fail concentration checks either through hp damage or grapple checks. Even a badly made fighter can take care of an arcanist in melee. Druid and clerics might be able to fend him off, but that means you now have 2 people out of the fight most likely. Weak does not equal auto-ignore especially if the party member is not just feared, but dominated. That means the other team just gained an ally. I never said he was a non-threat. He is however a liability, much like the character I had to trade out. He was not pulling his weight. You keep assuming that good party members can make a subpar one average. It does not work like that. I willing to entertain you though. We can do a play by post, and see how well Mr.V does. You game?
Edit:I am sure you will ask how the druid or cleric is out of the game. My point was that he is busy dealing with the fighter.
Unless the GM is doing some serious metagaming, I seriously doubt he's always going to target Valeros because of his terribad Will save.
Sometimes the enemies ARE idiots, btw.
Most fighters having weak will saves is not uncommon knowledge in the gameworld. Even published AP, and modules suggest that certain monsters will target saves of certain classes if they know what they are. It is not hard to tell who is what by their equipment. Paladins and fighters look to be similar, but the fighter has no holy symbol, and most people don't disguise themselves as other classes so that is an edge case.
Oh, there's no arguing that the iconics blow. Ezren's spell arsenal is horrible, Lini's strength is ridiculously low, and I don't even know what to say about Seltiyel (terrible spelling, lmao). They're just there to look pretty in the pictures, I highly doubt Valeros could take on three ticked-off ogres on a cliff side.