I would think the disparity in ability would be important to such a game and I am not sure RPGs are a good medium for that. You need a player that does not mind being the comic relief and/or totally out of his league.
For starters, I would really restrict magic significantly. Only a very small number of the highest level characters mentioned in the books had any capacity to use magic at all. Magic items are so rare that they are valued beyond price. Certain kinds of spells are simply not going to be possible; among those may include raise dead and higher level spells of that type. What you may consider is simply restricting caster classes to NPC status and make classes such as the hunter and paladin into non- casting classes. This is just off the top of my head during my lunch half hour. I am sure others can come up with other ideas.
While this seems like a wonderfully fun world/campaign to create. I daresay it would be a task beyond reckoning. The basic problem I see, is that the adventure hook is to take back The Lonely Mountain, which requires the tiny little task of ousting the only dragon left on all Middle-Earth from his comfortable lair. If you are starting this campaign at low levels and want to have a party that closely mimics the party in the story you have one wizard, 11 dwarven warriors, and a halfling thief (if memory serves). Good luck! In addition, in order to fully realize the potential of a The Hobbit campaign you have to realize that all Middle-Earth is open for adventure. Just because the party in the story took one path doesn't mean the PCs in your group will take the same path. Unless of course you create Gandalf as an NPC, which could work, as a storytelling element, and as party "police." Remember, though, that there were times when Gandalf left the party and they continued on on their own. In those cases the party could go wherever they wanted, and you, as the GM would have to be ready for anything. (I suppose, though, that a good GM is ready for anything all the time.)
I also agree with Reynard, magic ran through, in, around, and beside just about everything. In the beginning of the Fellowship, you see the hobbits succumbing to magical sleep multiple times. So much so that some of my RPG cohorts and I decided that if you were ever going to fully create a hobbit race, they would have to have a natural vulnerability to magical sleep, something akin to a -5 to any sleep inducing magical effects. They also get lost in a fog that appears from out of nowhere (obscuring mist, solid fog, fog cloud). Just because the magical rings are so few, doesn't mean that other magical items aren't around. It's just that many of the magical effects in Middle-Earth aren't flashy like thundering, flaming swords. Think, though of the quintessential Elven Cloak. This cloak that adds a bonus to anyone's hide skill almost undoubtedly came directly from the cloaks that were given to the Fellowship as they left Lothlorien. So there was quite a bit of magic in Middle-earth, it just hides itself in various, seemingly mundane, forms.
Ah, I love that book. For some reason it appealed to me far more than the Lord of the Rings series... but on to the task at hand.
Like others have said, I'd severely restrict magic, or at least limit the number of spellcasters in the main party to perhaps one. Magical items would be rare, so you can make them worth using, like Sting or Glamdring (THE FOEHAMMER!!!).
The campaign would have to be a very loose adaption of the novel. The adventure hook won't be same - having the Wizard/Sorcerer PC/NPC knock on your door and shove Dwarves down your throat won't get many adventurers to risk their lives.
I imagine the common hooks would be:
* Promises of the riches possessed by Smaug
* Saving Laketown
* Well, killing a dragon for the heck of it?
There is plenty of material to make it a series of adventures, though obviously much of it would have to be adapted. I could easily see Drow being adapted for the elves of Mirkwood, some templated spiders worked up in the forest, and the good ol' goblin/worg combo.
The number one challenge will be not railroading everything along the specific line set by the book.
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Let me explain a little: I don't necessarily mean run The Hobbit as an adventure, so much as i mean a) use the Middle Earth as presented in The Hobbit as the setting, and b) capture the tone of The Hobbit in whatever adventures do take place there. I'd specifically leave out the LotR because they are of an very different sort of story and the Middle Earth of LotR is only superficially the same place.
First, I think it would have to be a "low level" setting by an large -- PCs capping out at say 9th or 10th level. Also, the list of available classes would have to be limited and in some cases tweaked. Spell lists for casters would have to be modified and I would be inclined to making Human (Gandalf) magic different than Elf, Dwarf or Goblin Magic.
There'd have to be an emphasis on and mechanism for "social combat" given that so many "encounters" in the book are resolved by wit -- though there are more than a few deadly combats (poor old Goblin King).
If you HAD to run the game using Pathfinder, you would at least have to modify it to use the E6 mechanics. There are better systems out there to model the low-magic, gritty setting that is Middle Earth.
Let me explain a little: I don't necessarily mean run The Hobbit as an adventure, so much as i mean a) use the Middle Earth as presented in The Hobbit as the setting, and b) capture the tone of The Hobbit in whatever adventures do take place there. I'd specifically leave out the LotR because they are of an very different sort of story and the Middle Earth of LotR is only superficially the same place.
First, I think it would have to be a "low level" setting by an large -- PCs capping out at say 9th or 10th level. Also, the list of available classes would have to be limited and in some cases tweaked. Spell lists for casters would have to be modified and I would be inclined to making Human (Gandalf) magic different than Elf, Dwarf or Goblin Magic.
There'd have to be an emphasis on and mechanism for "social combat" given that so many "encounters" in the book are resolved by wit -- though there are more than a few deadly combats (poor old Goblin King).
If that's the case I'd say you are already well on your way through the initial design creative phase. You have an idea of what to limit and what to tweak. Let me present one caveat though. I don't believe there is one pinpoint tone of The Hobbit. I mean, think about the differences in tone in just a few of the instances: hanging out at Beorn's house (which, btw, brings up lycanthropes either as PCs or NPCs. You'll have to work on that as part of the creation process), or hanging out with Elrond in The Last Homely House in Rivendell, contrast those with traipsing through Mirkwood, or the huge epic Battle of Five Armies that takes place at the end. I just don't see a particular pinpointable tone. I think the genius of that book was that it was at turns comedic, at turns harrowingly suspenseful, and at turns pure adventure.
Not to mention the fact that there were more than a few places where Deus ex machina drops on by. Giant Eagles saving the day anyone?
…they fire all the arrows in the dark at the spiders and throw the bows away.
Yeah. Good luck getting a group of PCs to make poor tactical decisions.
I was just perusing the interwebs today and came across this: Middle Earth Role Playing. Didn't even know there was such a thing until today. Also came across this: SCRIBD database of MERP stuff.
Thought I'd pass it along in case you were interested.
Hmm, running a game that feels like The Hobbit but is still original enough to keep the players interested? How about something like....
"A series of calamities strikes a Dwarven Hold. Upon consultation with a wizard the Dwarves discover that the problem is brought on by a cursed ring that was stolen long ago from a Dragon's horde by a Halfling thief. In order to break the curse the ring must be returned to the Dragon's horde by a Halfling's hand without the Dragon realizing it's being returned."
That's a little rough, I might work on it more later.
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If you're after the tone of the Hobbit, as told by Bilbo, you'd need to make the players roll characters that were NOT adventurers. Or, at a minimum, lie to them about the campaign, and toss in a bait and switch in the very first play session. Bilbo was out of his element, as is later Frodo. This is the point of the Hobbits in those stories, I think. To heighten the fantasy.
Once, in a Modern game, I told the players all to roll up characters who were working for various government agencies. They generated back stories involving an espionage-type campaign, with all the requisite skills. Their first mission was to go into orbit and investigate what was happening on a larger version of the ISS. Crap happened, they got bathed in blue light, and woke up on the surface of a RIFTS-style campaign.
They were completely unprepared, despite being viable characters. They had to investigate their surroundings and got in a fair bit of trouble before they correctly identified the setting I was robbing.
They loved it.
This is the emotional situation that the Hobbit would need to draw upon in an RPG format.
There was an article written for Dragon Magazine written in the 70's about playing a middle-earth campaign. It was called Gandalf was a Fifth Level Magic User.
While it was written for first edition, it's a fair assessment, third level spells really portray the height of magic in Middle Earth, and for that matter most fantasy fiction (Steven Brust's Taltos series is more like fifth level spells actually).
This was the basis for E6. I'm sure you've heard of it- I think it works well for this type of story.
There was an article written for Dragon Magazine written in the 70's about playing a middle-earth campaign. It was called Gandalf was a Fifth Level Magic User.
While it was written for first edition, it's a fair assessment, third level spells really portray the height of magic in Middle Earth, and for that matter most fantasy fiction (Steven Brust's Taltos series is more like fifth level spells actually).
This was the basis for E6. I'm sure you've heard of it- I think it works well for this type of story.
The assessement of Gandalf works pretty well until one detail is put in.
He went one on one with a Balor. he died in that fight but not before taking it down.
Try that with your 5th level MU, I dare ya.
Gandalf was also an angel, not a human so...
Simple, that Balor was CR 6.The assessement of Gandalf works pretty well until one detail is put in.
He went one on one with a Balor. he died in that fight but not before taking it down.
Try that with your 5th level MU, I dare ya.
Er... yeah! That was babau dual wielding!
Well, I just read through the "Gandalf was Fifth Level" article, and it's a fair enough assumption, but I think, in keeping with the feel of those stories, it's important to remember that Gandalf was a mostly well-played GMNPC.
He is the adventure hook. He knows everything (or most everything) that's going on, and he's kindly helping the dwarves and Bilbo along, but disappears whenever it would be needed to create drama. "Oh, uh, you guys go here, but I'm going to go, um, read something, uh, a few towns over..."
And that applies to the 5th level post. Sure, he 'only' cast 3rd level spells, but that's because it was just enough to help the hapless PCs along, without winning every fight for them... Also, the idea that magic was vulnerable, that using it drew the eye of powerful beings also explains why the big stuff was held back. It also fits very well with the concept of him being a supernatural being, and the idea that the gods help those that help themselves.
Now, as for the Hobbit-style/Middle Earth campaign, folks talk about it being a low-magic setting, but nearly every character had a magic weapon by the end of LotR (or maybe lost them along the way). There was magic armor, cloaks, rope, healing, food and even pseudo magical armor. The gear was there. Not to mention (it's been a while since I've read the books) some supernaturally awesome fighting and skill use.
Namely, the black arrow and Smaug, and Aragon's tracking skills and stamina.
However, the point of the stories, and the theme is that the gear isn't the point. Each of the undefeatable monsters/enemies they fought had a weakness that wasn't just hit points. The biggest weakness was the resolution and determination of the folks that stood against them, if they were united.
Think in terms of artifacts and overwhelming enemies, remind the PCs that not every fight can be won directly, and give them help and faith when they're in trouble. Also remember that the most terrible enemy in Middle Earth was not just a ring, but the temptation to use the ring.
Well, I just read through the "Gandalf was Fifth Level" article, and it's a fair enough assumption, but I think, in keeping with the feel of those stories, it's important to remember that Gandalf was a mostly well-played GMNPC.
He is the adventure hook. He knows everything (or most everything) that's going on, and he's kindly helping the dwarves and Bilbo along, but disappears whenever it would be needed to create drama. "Oh, uh, you guys go here, but I'm going to go, um, read something, uh, a few towns over..."
And that applies to the 5th level post. Sure, he 'only' cast 3rd level spells, but that's because it was just enough to help the hapless PCs along, without winning every fight for them... Also, the idea that magic was vulnerable, that using it drew the eye of powerful beings also explains why the big stuff was held back. It also fits very well with the concept of him being a supernatural being, and the idea that the gods help those that help themselves.
Now, as for the Hobbit-style/Middle Earth campaign, folks talk about it being a low-magic setting, but nearly every character had a magic weapon by the end of LotR (or maybe lost them along the way). There was magic armor, cloaks, rope, healing, food and even pseudo magical armor. The gear was there. Not to mention (it's been a while since I've read the books) some supernaturally awesome fighting and skill use.
Namely, the black arrow and Smaug, and Aragon's tracking skills and stamina.
However, the point of the stories, and the theme is that the gear isn't the point. Each of the undefeatable monsters/enemies they fought had a weakness that wasn't just hit points. The biggest weakness was the resolution and determination of the folks that stood against them, if they were united.
Think in terms of artifacts and overwhelming enemies, remind the PCs that not every fight can be won directly, and give them help and faith when they're in trouble. Also remember that the most terrible enemy in Middle Earth was not just a ring, but...
You make a point, but If I was traveling with a high level wizards and he pulled that crap, I'd be ticked. I'm risking my hobbit butt (I'm like Pippen or something, probably Sam, as that's my name) to save the world and the jerk angel with wizard levels isn't using his magic to save existence because...he doesn't want to steal the spotlight?! No, that would not fly, the stakes are just to high on a based of verisimilitude and narrative.
I'll accept that Gandalf did things as simple as possible (never use an ace when a two will do) but I don't like the idea that he could have teleported the party to mount doom the day after the meeting in Rivendell, had Frodo plunk in the ring and teleport everyone out because... it wouldn't be dramatic enough- I think Gandalf did everything he could to help the fellowship, it's just that his abilities weren't as impressive as a 17th level wizard.
That doesn't make the story any worse, but it has different basic assumptions than Pathfinder...
Secondly, if that was a campaign I was in, I'd complain about the lack of magic items and the crappyness of the ones we got (I have been in campaigns like that and have) They got some +! swords (Aragorn got a +1 holy sword by my reckoning and Gimli and Legolas's equipment wasn't much better than +2 enchantments) cloaks of elvenkind, an a vial that could cast light. Oh, and a mithral chain shirt. Bah.
Again, good for a story, or an E6 game, but sad for a vanilla Pathfinder game.
I'm currently reading The Hobbit with my 5th graders. We had our first class discussion yesterday covering chapters 1-6. My starting point for the discussion:
If this is an adventure story, why don't we have a single hero in it?
The students did a good job of identifying the unheroic character and motives of the Bilbo and the Dwarfs. They noticed that Gandalf is somewhat less than as useful as he could be (for example, his inaction in the face of Fili and Kili's lie about thoroughly searching the cave leads to the party getting captured by goblins).
Fundamentally, The Hobbit isn't about lost treasure, dragons, et cetera. It is about flawed persons making choices either for good or for evil, and then living with the consequences of those choices. It's about a hobbit and a gang of dwarfs with base motives being gently nudged onto the path of heroism.
Turn *that* into an adventure, and I think you'd have something memorable and rare in RPGing.
Simple, that Balor was CR 6.The assessement of Gandalf works pretty well until one detail is put in.
He went one on one with a Balor. he died in that fight but not before taking it down.
Try that with your 5th level MU, I dare ya.
We all know the real question, not what CR the Balor was, but whether he had wings!
OP: As mentioned many times before, the main issue isn't that they turned halflings into little elf wannabies somewhere around 3.0, but instead that the magic system is NOT subtle at all.
Magic in middle earth is powerful, but subtle. It shapes the world, but does so in a way that isn't flashy. Largely, those of power didn't really use "spells" at all in a D&D sense, but instead had powerful forces of will.
As someone mentioned there is a game from the 80's called MERP that was a convert from Role-Master - if you haven't played it before, be aware the critical hit system leads to TPK's, even in what should be "routine" encounters.
Decipher made a Lord of the Rings roleplaying game a few years ago that came and went quickly enough that I assume it tanked. The play system is passable, but the character advancement system blows. I ran it for a bit, but had to levelup the characters myself in order to make it work, which of course is normally a step players enjoy.
So basically, there is no perfect solution if you want to play in the world of The Hobbit. Pick your poison I guess.
My $.02 is that while Gandalf may have been a 5th level Wizard, he also had some levels in Druid, perhaps a level or two in Fighter or Paladin, and maybe a few levels of Bard.
Forgetting that he was an angel for a moment, he shows skills and aptitudes that go beyond just Wizard (or Magic User in the old days):
Druid: Speaking to Butterflies, Summoning giant-ass Eagles, throwing flaming pinecones.
Fighter or Paladin: Wielding swords, military tactics.
Bard or Paladin: His ability to inspire others to greatness (even though he doesn't explicitly use songs or music).
Am I being liberal in my perceptions, perhaps, but a:
Wizard 5/Druid 5/Fighter 2/Bard 3 stands a heck of a better chance against a Balrog than just a 5th level Wizard.
Hey, just a bit unrelated to current wizardly discussion - Check the Bestiary 2. Rock trolls that turn to stone in sunlight are here ;)
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Two things -
1. There's already a ton of material available for RPGs in Middle Earth. I really like the old MERP.
2. Read DM of The Rings for some pointers about how stories don't always make good RPGs. (And some serious funniness!)
Two things -
1. There's already a ton of material available for RPGs in Middle Earth. I really like the old MERP.2. Read DM of The Rings for some pointers about how stories don't always make good RPGs. (And some serious funniness!)
I do love that comic, while it's mostly the one joke, but it's a great one.