Good roleplayers will be good roleplayers, regardless of their stats. Bad stats don't magically make someone a good roleplayer, nor do good stats make one a bad roleplayer.
It's up to the player. If you're stuck with a bad crowd, forcing them to roll is not likely to help.
Both rolling and point buy have their qualities (even if I'd sooner stick a spike through my skull than play rolled scores again), but neither is the main or even a major determinant in the quality of RP. The difference it makes is so trivial that it pales next to the quality (or lack thereof) of the players themselves
I like the way you summed up the point a lot of people have been trying to make. Stats, while important to a point, can be worked around with a little creativity and good communication within the party.
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I think whether or not a bad stats char is viable really depends on the people you're playing with. Some groups expects a certain level of combat contribution from every member and having a lame duck will poison the party relationship. On the other hand, bad stats will survive fine in the "we're friends it's all about fun" group.
I like the way you summed up the point a lot of people have been trying to make. Stats, while important to a point, can be worked around with a little creativity and good communication within the party.Good roleplayers will be good roleplayers, regardless of their stats. Bad stats don't magically make someone a good roleplayer, nor do good stats make one a bad roleplayer.
It's up to the player. If you're stuck with a bad crowd, forcing them to roll is not likely to help.
Both rolling and point buy have their qualities (even if I'd sooner stick a spike through my skull than play rolled scores again), but neither is the main or even a major determinant in the quality of RP. The difference it makes is so trivial that it pales next to the quality (or lack thereof) of the players themselves
That doesn't look like the point being made...
The same way that a higher level character is more likely to live longer than a lower level one.
Yes and no. In multiple parts.
The same factors play into this.
No, it doesn't because that has nothing to do with this.
A character with good stats of the same level is mathematically better at living than the uber-RP, crappy-stat character of the same level
Rolled stats are just another way to restrict char-gen choices to force creativity. Instead of having a blank page and no direction, or an adventure path player's guide giving advice, or the DM for a themed game giving a limitted race or class selection, you get to figure out what can be done with the stats there, which can be a fun challenge, solving the riddle of the stats. They get you focused on building the character, mitigating the flipflopping and hemhawwing at all the wondrous variety of possible characters.
The big problem is if there's a disparity in the group, where one pc ends up superman and the rest end up comic relief and support. Some groups are ok with that, and that is the format for the majority of entertainment media, but most people I've met get tired of always being the sidekick and want to get a turn at being the hero, too, which is why gaming usually encourages a troupe of equals instead.
I agree that the big problem is when there is a disparity of stats. In that sense this groups has been pretty lucky. Everyone has rolled crappy stats so no one character will outshine the others and no one character will be a drag. The fact that they are all a little below 10pt buy means that the GM can take this into account and play a game geared towards weaker characters. In that sense I see no problem with them getting a good game out of these characters. With that said, rolling stats like this is a risk. If one person had rolled supremely well or incredibly bad there would be problems.
If you REALLY want to have the dice challenge you with interesting stats go ahead and roll, then make up a background for that character. Once you have your character background, take your 20 point buy, or whatever and challenge yourself to see if you can create stats that still fit the concept, but don't suck so bad.
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You know, it could be an opportunity for him to flex some roleplaying muscle. Think outside the box. Make it work.
I've played with the equal or worse, it's doable. And fun.
Kids, with their point buys and whatnot. Miss out on all of the fun of making something less than ideal legendary...
Pfft. We agree on a lot more than you like to admit. Just not on fiscal policy. And kender.
Search your soul, you know it's true ;-)
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That doesn't look like the point being made...I like the way you summed up the point a lot of people have been trying to make. Stats, while important to a point, can be worked around with a little creativity and good communication within the party.Good roleplayers will be good roleplayers, regardless of their stats. Bad stats don't magically make someone a good roleplayer, nor do good stats make one a bad roleplayer.
It's up to the player. If you're stuck with a bad crowd, forcing them to roll is not likely to help.
Both rolling and point buy have their qualities (even if I'd sooner stick a spike through my skull than play rolled scores again), but neither is the main or even a major determinant in the quality of RP. The difference it makes is so trivial that it pales next to the quality (or lack thereof) of the players themselves
Which point are you referring to?
The only point you're making is you can't think outside the box.
Or have fun if you're not "uber".
Or something.
I played with point buy for a while, and I got tired of seeing the exact same stat spreads for each class. Playing and DMing. Now, in the interest of full disclosure, I haven't played 3d6 in order since the first game I played in (1979, AD&D) and at some conventions for one offs, and have used 4d6, drop the lowest, any order, since 1980.
But, I don't understand your insistence that this group won't have fun. You don't know them, the OP isn't complaining (much) about his stats, and people here have given some reasonable advice on what kind of character he could play and not be completely ineffective. Your posts smack of "One True Way-ism", and are counterproductive.
I'm sure that somewhere, on some forum, someone is spreading misinformation about 4e. Why are you wasting your time here when you can put on your mask and cape and defeat that evil person?
What annoys me is the 'one-true-wayism' coming the other way. It's not a one-sided fail.
It's that insistence that rolling is the ONLY way to be creative and roleplay and that anyone that doesn't is a stupid munchkin.
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And, before anyone calls me out on it, rules =/= play style. My problem with the way 3x/Pf plays and favors casters (imo) has nothing to do with how I play the game.
Mechanics are mechanics, and can be looked at objectively. Play style is 100% subjective and is more a function of the social contract between the players and GM, and cannot be argued. You can't objectively say something is or isn't "fun", only the participants in a particular game can make that call.
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What annoys me is the 'one-true-wayism' coming the other way. It's not a one-sided fail.
It's that insistence that rolling is the ONLY way to be creative and roleplay and that anyone that doesn't is a stupid munchkin.
I don't think anyone has seriously said anything to that effect. Any instance of that in this thread is a direct result of other people thread crapping.
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I don't think anyone has seriously said anything to that effect. Any instance of that in this thread is a direct result of other people thread crapping.What annoys me is the 'one-true-wayism' coming the other way. It's not a one-sided fail.
It's that insistence that rolling is the ONLY way to be creative and roleplay and that anyone that doesn't is a stupid munchkin.
ghost post
A witch eh? Its worth a shot.
Nice build! I agree with the controller sentiment myself, and not just because I'm pro-witch. Let the gnome druid handle medic duty and supplement that with your Healing hex as needed. For your extra hex, I'd recommend Evil Eye or Misfortune, and you might consider snagging Cauldron at your next level up that grants a hex - it'll give you Brew Potion to complement your Hedge Magician trait.
Above all, have fun! Makes me wanna play with a Hand of God array myself - I don't see much of that outside of Call of Cthulhu any more.
I would like to point out that "the ridiculous adventuring companion who is terrible at what he does yet joins our party on our righteous quest to save the world" stretches my suspension of disbelief.
Dude. You play a game where people throw magic fireballs and fight dragons. Ridiculous, unskilled adventuring companions typically become epic heroes in worlds like this, given enough time and the right nurturing.
Yeah, and none of the other characters really WANT said companion, they get it forced on them by the author.
It sounds like you want a world where all adventurers are a mix of high school jocks, bullies, and short-tempered older siblings.
I removed a post. Play nice.
Also, the rest of you, play nice.
The big problem is if there's a disparity in the group, where one pc ends up superman and the rest end up comic relief and support. Some groups are ok with that, and that is the format for the majority of entertainment media, but most people I've met get tired of always being the sidekick and want to get a turn at being the hero, too, which is why gaming usually encourages a troupe of equals instead.
I don't think disparity in stats needs to be a big problem with players who are good at sharing the spotlight and the spoils when adventuring. It's a little like mixing player types. Hardcore min-maxers and casual players aren't that easy to mix if they aren't good at cooperating and tolerating each other's foibles. The same may be true if high stat character players won't tolerate their lower stat comrades having their modified die rolls average a few points lower.
But players who are good at tolerating the differences can make games work just fine even if they got blessed by lucky stats while the other players did not.
Yeah, and none of the other characters really WANT said companion, they get it forced on them by the author.
I call it the Jar Jar Paradigm.
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I'll probably take some hits from my 'interpretations' of some words used in the rules regarding traits and feats, but I think this will appease both sides of the argument
Human Witch
Initial rolls: 12 Str, 8 Dex, 15 Con, 15 Int, 10 Wis, 9 Cha
As the son of a Brevoy Noble, a father who was strict, soldierly and aloof. Poe’s father, Tobias was tall and strong, a proper warrior and Nobleman who resented the arranged marriage his parents forced him into. He was descended from Aldori sword lords, who was he to marry a merchants daughter.
Poe's mother, Illyssa, who was from a prominent merchant family from The Brevic city of Restov was a little different. She possessed a graceful, fragile physique that was accentuated by her slightly pointed ears, thus denoting an distant elven ancestor. She always seemed to be working in her garden tending strange plants and making odd smelling concoctions in her little stove. (i.e. Witch)
His parents marriage was an arranged marriage, thought to align a merchant family with a noble house and enrich both with stature, influence and money. There was little love between his parents, though Poe has an older brother and a younger sister.
As a young boy Poe spent many hours playing with his mothers pet fox at her side instead of with his expensive tutors and arms master, til one day his father caught him and in a fit of rage killed the animal by accident, thus hurting his mother in the process. His mother became sick and one strange evening she simply disappeared from their home entirely, but her work, her knowledge had been passed down to Poe and it is with these skills that he is now seeking to make his way in the world.
Shortly after his Mothers disappearance Poe’s father also became ill and over several months time he wasted away until he died, Within three months both of his parents had died or disappeared, and he was taken in by a friend and business partner of his Grandfather, the wealthy Dwarven merchant Jallan and his wife who dealt in gem & ore trading in The small mining village of Brunderton in eastern Rostland.
While Poe’s siblings went to live with other families til his older brother could come of age and take over the family holdings. Jallan would rear Poe to be a businessman and a proper Brevoy Gentleman. Jallan in his younger days was a warrior of some renown and a member of the Ninth Battalion, a dwarven military force without borders, he is now retired after many years of service.
His brother Villiam, was sent off to his great-uncle Nemas Ricasso a mercenary Captain of the Bloodstone Swords, after attending one of the esteemed and exclusive schools of the Aldori swordlords.
His sister, Rosalie was sent to live with his aunt, Karissa Keld a Cleric of Erastil (rumored to be a venture captain of a local pathfinder lodge) to study and grow further in her faith as a cleric of Erastil so that she may better help her older brother and increase the families holdings.
Poe carries a resentment towards his father and knowing that there is no place for him at home, since the holdings will all pass to his brother, he has set off into the world to make a name for himself and hopefully find his mother whom he still believes to be alive in the process.
Name: Poe EA -

Familiar: Raven* +3 bonus on Appraise checks *A raven familiar can speak one language of its master’s choice as a supernatural ability. 
Note: I chose a raven for its ability to talk & for the 'touch attack' ability of a flying familiar
Level 1

Kingmaker Campaign 

Race: Human

Class: Witch

Gender: Male 

HP: D6 (6+2 CON = 8)
The witch’s class skills are Craft (Int), Fly (Dex), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Knowledge (planes) 
(Int), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha). 
Skill Ranks per Level: 2 (+2/+4 INT = 4/6 ) (+1 for Human/lvl )
BAB +0
Fort Save +0 +2 = 2
Ref Save +0 +1 = 1
Will Save +2 +1 = 3
STR 12 

DEX 8 ( +2 DEX = 10 )

CON 15 ( +2 CON -2 CON = 15)

INT 15 ((+2 INT = 17 ) +2 Any = 19))

WIS 10 ( +2 WIS = 12 )
CHA 9 ( -2 CHA = 7 )
Note: Still have + 2 to any one ability score to add above. Add to INT for Witch
Human Racial Traits
+2 to One Ability Score: Human characters get a +2 bonus to one ability score of their choice at creation to represent
their varied nature.
Medium: Humans are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Normal Speed: Humans have a base speed of 30 feet.
Bonus Feat: Humans select one extra feat at 1st level.
Skilled: Humans gain an additional skill rank at first level and one additional rank whenever they gain a level.
Languages: Humans begin play speaking Common. Humans with high Intelligence scores can choose any languages they want (except secret languages, such as Druidic).
Traits: 

1) Hedge Magician: You apprenticed for a time to a craftsman who often built magic items, and he taught you many handy shortcuts and cost-saving techniques. Whenever you craft a magic item, you reduce the required gp cost to make the item by 5%.
2)Adopted ( Dwarf ): You were adopted and raised by someone not of your actual race, and raised in a society not your own. As a result, you picked up a race trait from your adoptive parents and society, and may immediately select a race trait from your adoptive parents’ race. Race Trait Chosen: (STATS) +2 Constitution, +2 Wisdom, –2 Charisma: Dwarves are both tough and wise, but also a bit gruff.
Possible Alternate Trait cause I know people are going to have difficulty with my interpretation of the "Adopted Trait":
1) Rich Parents: You were born into a rich family, perhaps even the nobility, and even though you turned to a life of adventure anyway, you enjoy a one-time benefit to your initial finances—your starting cash increases to 900 gp.
Feats: I know y'all are going to flip because of my 'interpretation' of the Racial Heritage Feat

1) Extra Hex - Gain one additional hex
2) Racial Heritage Feat: The blood of a non-human ancestor flows in your veins. (Elf)
Prerequisite: Human. 
Benefit: Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race. For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.
Elf Racial Traits
+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, –2 Constitution: Elves are nimble, both in body and mind, but their form is frail.
Medium: Elves are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Normal Speed: Elves have a base speed of 30 feet.
Low-Light Vision: Elves can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light. See Chapter 7.
Elven Immunities: Elves are immune to magic sleep effects and get a +2 racial saving throw bonus against
enchantment spells and effects.
Elven Magic: Elves receive a +2 racial bonus on caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance.
In addition, elves receive a +2 racial bonus on Spellcraft skill checks made to identify the properties of
magic items.
Keen Senses: Elves receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception skill checks.
Weapon Familiarity: Elves are proficient with longbows (including composite longbows), longswords,
rapiers, and shortbows (including composite shortbows), and treat any weapon with the word “elven” in
its name as a martial weapon.
Languages: Elves begin play speaking Common and Elven. Elves with high Intelligence scores can choose
from the following: Celestial, Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, and Sylvan.

3) Scribe Scroll Caster level 1st Create magic scrolls
Spells: (19 INT = how many additional spells?)

0: Spark: Ignites flammable objects.

0: Detect Magic: Detects all spells and magic items within 60 ft.

0: Guidance: +1 on one attack roll, saving throw, or skill check.

1: Mage Armor: Gives subject +4 armor bonus.

1: Cure Light Wounds: Cures 1d8 damage + 1/level (max +5).

1: Summon Monster I: Summons extraplanar creature to fight for you.

1: Enlarge Person: Humanoid creature doubles in size.

1: Chill Touch: One touch/level deals 1d6 damage and possibly 1 Str damage.

2: Summon Swarm: Summons swarm of bats, rats, or spiders.

2: Alter Self: Assume form of a Small or Medium humanoid.

2: Web: Fills 20ft.radius spread w/ sticky spiderwebs that can grapple foes & impair movement.

3: Vampiric Touch: Touch deals 1d6 damage per two levels; caster gains damage as temp hp.

3: Deep Slumber: Puts 10 HD of creatures to sleep.

4: Ice Storm: Hail deals 5d6 damage in cylinder 40 ft. across.
Hex: The save to resist a hex is equal to 10 + 1/2 the witch’s level + the witch’s Intelligence modifier. ( 10 + 1 + 4 = 15 )

1) Evil Eye (Su): The witch can cause doubt to creep into the mind of a foe within 30 feet that she can see. The target takes a –2 penalty on one of the following (witch’s choice): AC, ability checks, attack rolls, saving throws, or skill checks. This hex lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the witch’s Intelligence modifier. A Will save reduces this to just 1 round. This is a mind-affecting effect. At 8th level the penalty increases to –4.
2) Healing (Su): A witch can soothe the wounds of those she touches. This acts as a cure light wounds spell, using the witch’s caster level. Once a creature has benefited from the healing hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours. At 5th level, this hex acts like cure moderate wounds.
Patron: Still undecided between Elements or Agility, Thoughts?
Agility: 2nd—jump, 4th—cat’s grace, 6th—haste, 8th—freedom of movement, 10th—polymorph, 12th—cat’s grace (mass), 14th—ethereal jaunt, 16th—animal shapes, 18th—shapechange.
Elements: 2nd—shocking grasp, 4th—flaming sphere, 6th—fireball, 8th—wall of ice, 10th—flame strike, 12th— freezing sphere, 14th—vortex*, 16th—fire storm, 18th— meteor swarm.
Yar!
Ah yes, interpretations of 'race/racial trait'. Unfortunately, Race Traits and Racial Traits are NOT the same thing.
Adopted allows you to pick one Race Trait as detailed in the Traits chapter at the end of the APG, not one of it's Racial Traits (like darkvision or it's stat adjustments, you only get those for actually being that race)
Same with the Racial Heritage feat. You qualify to take Race Traits (such as Forlorn, Arcane Dabbler, or Warrior of Old), but you do not suddenly gain some or all of their Racial Traits (stat adjustments, magic affinity, immunities, etc).
Sorry.
(otherwise they would be too good, and I would always take that trait and feat for added stat boosts and racial abilities - tengu trained in all bladed weapons even exotics, other monster races that give +4 or more to some abilities, etc).
~P
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Yar!
Ah yes, interpretations of 'race/racial trait'. Unfortunately, Race Traits and Racial Traits are NOT the same thing.
Adopted allows you to pick one Race Trait as detailed in the Traits chapter at the end of the APG, not one of it's Racial Traits (like darkvision or it's stat adjustments, you only get those for actually being that race)
Same with the Racial Heritage feat. You qualify to take Race Traits (such as Forlorn, Arcane Dabbler, or Warrior of Old), but you do not suddenly gain some or all of their Racial Traits (stat adjustments, magic affinity, immunities, etc).
Sorry.
(otherwise they would be too good, and I would always take that trait and feat for added stat boosts and racial abilities - tengu trained in all bladed weapons even exotics, other monster races that give +4 or more to some abilities, etc).
~P
Yes, I kind of figured that would be the case, Haha, it just sounds like its a semantics issue and I thought I'd throw it together and thus out onto the board to see if I could add another log onto the fire that this thread has become.
All I did was ask for some advice and thankfully, I got a lot!
Tons of options for this character and Preston is right an elf would balance out nicely and I can easily adjust everything.
Thanks again for playing everyone!
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So, Hazzard, male witch? Human or possibly elf? Sounds good. Nice try on the mixed race traits, but as has been pointed out, they don't quite work that way. I could even stretch things a bit and let Adopted grant a cultural racial trait, but nothing biological like stats. Hedge Magician will be great, as there is a lot of down time in Kingmaker, perfect for magic item crafting, and the Rich Parents/Brevic nobility thing will also have benefits down the road.
Keep in mind that at least two of your companions are going to fail A LOT of Will saves (did you see those Wis?). Anything you can do to avoid their fate and/or bail them out would probably be good too.
Also, the two gnomes ought to be interesting: one Mr. Nature and the other Mr. Science. Yin and Yang. Ought to be fun. It'd be even funnier if they were brothers. It might be interesting if they were Bleachlings - late-life survivors of the Bleaching. Middle Ages would give them both +1 to all mental stats and -1 to physical stats.
Hey, are you still wanting me to consider a 0-level as warrior? I really like the first back story you posted (the second one was a bit convoluted), and the whole mercenary side-story seems kinda' unnecessary. I might consider 0-level aristocrat though. Let me know.
The GM
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Hey, are you still wanting me to consider a 0-level as warrior? I really like the first back story you posted (the second one was a bit convoluted), and the whole mercenary side-story seems kinda' unnecessary. I might consider 0-level aristocrat though. Let me know.The GM
Heh, Yes I know the traits and feats wouldn't work like that, I just found it funny enough to develop out and post about it. I wanted to see what people would say.
I developed the back story for the siblings and relatives as a way of stacking the deck for contacts and associates within the River Kingdoms region.
If you read the Faction Guide the:
1) Brother & Uncle = p.12 - Bloodstone swords operate within the River Kingdoms, with a citadel on the Sellen river, so having a brother placed high, close and related to the Commander of the group ( Nemas Ricasso ) might have a benefits if they needed to expand their training areas or would want to work out a deal of bolstering the new nations military for a time in trade for resources. The soldiers and their families could move to the region and help build it up in exchange for plots of land to farm for their own and for the nation.
2) Adopted Father = p.32 - The Ninth Battalion - an inter-clan of disenfranchised warriors dedicated to the stalwart defense of Golarion’s remaining dwarven enclaves. Again, this would be for a contact not only with the Ninth Battalion, the Dwarves and having an adopted father as a prominent and wealthy merchant in a highly dwarven populated region, might give me access to dwarven warriors, families and craftsmen who might want to emigrate to the new nation.
Then:
3) Sister & Aunt = Clerics of Erastil, i.e. a contact within the Church of Erastil LG God of farming, hunting, trade, family Animal, Community, Good, Law, Plant. Could only help by easing the request for Clerics to help out the new nations farm lands, trade, etc.
4) the two Gnomes in the party would take care of the contacts for the Gnomish communities and probably a lot of the Fey in the region.
I was going to go further with the Elven heritage racial trait story and say that his great grandmother was still alive and living in Kyonin and a prominent spell caster and craftsman, thus giving him a contact within the Elven community.
I'm not sure how the tiefling would fit in, but diversity is always good.
Regarding the 0-Level request, I was thinking of bolstering the skills the Witch has with some additional skill slots Aristocrat gives more than the Warrior, it would give the character more skill slots, HP and possibly ranks, but again its all up to you and the balance of the game, of course I am going to push for more, but I'll be happy either way:
Aristocrat
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d8.
Class Skills
The aristocrat's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all skills taken individually) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Swim (Str), and Survival (Wis).
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.
Class Features
The following is a class feature of the aristocrat NPC class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The aristocrat is proficient in the use of all simple and martial weapons and with all types of armor and shields.
Warrior
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d10.
Class Skills
The warrior's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str).
Skill Ranks per Level: 2 + Int modifier.
Class Features
The following is a class feature of the warrior NPC class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The warrior is proficient in the use of all simple and martial weapons and with all types of armor and shields.
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Its so nice to have my former DM, Current DM and Future DM all weigh in on this topic as well as everyone else who took time to read, respond and add their weight to all topics covered.
I'd roll dice with y'all anytime, whether its point buy or D6/hand of god.
The Witch is progressing well, I'll update with the final build when I have it... finalized.
Thanks again all!
- Hazzard
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I've also decided that, since our Will saves are going to be atrocious, that your feat for level three should be Craft Wondrous Item.
"Let's go witch! The Cloak of Resistance don't make itself!"
Haha, would the time for crafting a cloak of resistance for a Gnome be divided by half or less for the size? or I could just make one and then cut it in half and cut a hole in it for a poncho of resistance.
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Ah. I see we're already getting started with the short jokes!Haha, would the time for crafting a cloak of resistance for a Gnome be divided by half or less for the size? or I could just make one and then cut it in half and cut a hole in it for a poncho of resistance.I've also decided that, since our Will saves are going to be atrocious, that your feat for level three should be Craft Wondrous Item.
"Let's go witch! The Cloak of Resistance don't make itself!"
I apologize for being short with you, it was only a little joke.
I just noticed that if an Elf has brew potion & 5 ranks in cook he automatically knows how to make magic food. My specialty will be spiced Apples!