|
My group is having a potential problem with a Witch.
Recently, a PC got killed and the Player, with his shiny new APG, has brought in a witch. No problem there.
The group is APL 5 so the new PC witch is 5th level. No problem there.
But in our first fight with the Witch (2 randomly encountered scrags) he put them to sleep and the other PCs just surrounded them one at a time; one PC would perform a coup de gras and the others, as the scrag awoke, killed it.
It was not a fight. That's where the problem is.
The Witch can put any HD creature to Sleep (Will Save negates) and when you add his flying, levitating and other above-5th-level abilities, it kinda seems broken.
As I recall, the PC has the "Make Everyone Sleep" and "Move Around Alot" Class Features.
Can you guys show some crunch stuff that better illuminates the Witch as a Class: what parts are broken / not broken, how to handle things RAW, what Houserules other DMs are incorporating, that kinda schtick?
.... Or, at least provide a linky to a few other Threads that have dealt with the Witch?
Thanks.
(Oh, and feel free to check out the Campaign Journal "The Wizard of Witchfire Mt: A Sandbox Campaign in the Sterich March"
I dont think there is anything wrong with the witch per say, you have to adapt acordingly. Remember that pass or fail the witch only gets one shot at sleep per enemy per 24 hours. In the above example the best way I can see , assuming they one failed on round one and the other failed on round 2, have them use a standard action to wake the other.
Putting crazy house rules on some one is just no fun. Tactics can solve most problems.
Here are two threads that address the Slumber Hex:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/advice/amIBeingFair&page=1
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/advice/witchsSleepHexMakesItAllTooEasy&page=1&source=search#0
I think there was some sort of consensus that an alteration was in order for some campaigns. Many suggested having something based on HD being greater or less the the witches caster level, and using fatigued, exhausted or dazed.
I think anything that sets up a coup de grace is VERY powerful, and should not be treated lightly!
Here are two threads that address the Slumber Hex:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/advice/amIBeingFair&page=1
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/advice/witchsSleepHexMakesItAllTooEasy&page=1&source=search#0
I think there was some sort of consensus that an alteration was in order for some campaigns. Many suggested having something based on HD being greater or less the the witches caster level, and using fatigued, exhausted or dazed.
I think anything that sets up a coup de grace is VERY powerful, and should not be treated lightly!
There are already so many save or die spells, abilities and situation in pathfinder and 3.5 anyway that I dont see a reason to put harsh house rules on one guy just because you dont want to try to adapt your style and find a way to make things challenging with out cheezing your players.
|
You might assure that the PC is calculating the save DC correctly (10 + 1/2 the witch level + intelligence modifier).
This means that the save on the slumber hex will always be equal or 1 less than the highest level spell she can cast.
Sleep is easily countered with a standard action from an enemy to wake the hexed enemy.
Another way to counter slumber witches (and SOD in general) is to have the PCs encounter 3 to 5 enemies instead of 1 or 2. Sometimes this is easier said than done because I know as a DM I'm always wanting the PCs to face the "cool monsters" which are always at or a little above the PCs lvl so you can't throw multiples.
Possibly most importantly, each enemy can only be targeted by the witches slumber hex once per day. If the monster makes the save or even if he doesn't and is brought awake he is no longer an eligible target for the slumber hex.
Lastly, IMO many of the witches spell choices are sub-optimal. She doesn't have the variety that the wizard has. She doesn't have the times per day the sorcerer has. She only has a single Patron (similar to a domain) unlike clerics.
Another option...
Elves are immune to sleep and charm
Urban Druids over level 10 are immune to Compulsions (sleep, charm, holds, etc)
Constructs would be immune to sleep/charm spells
Dragons are immune to sleep or paralysis effects/spells.
Ooze are immune to sleep/charm spells
Plants creatures are immune to sleep spells
Undead are immune to sleep spells
Elemental subtype are immune to sleep effects.
There are already so many save or die spells, abilities and situation in pathfinder and 3.5 anyway that I dont see a reason to put harsh house rules on one guy just because you dont want to try to adapt your style and find a way to make things challenging with out cheezing your players.
Forum at my post, so here is the summary.
SoD effects have been getting fewer and fewer since AD&D because they are lame. Why make up these interesting monsters and PCs if one die roll is going to decide your fate?
Please explain, "...adapt your style and find a way to make things challenging with out cheezing your players."?
Short of only using the creatures listed above, or having every encounter be against a half dozen or more creatures, how would you adapt?
There are already so many save or die spells, abilities and situation in pathfinder and 3.5 anyway that I dont see a reason to put harsh house rules on one guy just because you dont want to try to adapt your style and find a way to make things challenging with out cheezing your players.Forum at my post, so here is the summary.
SoD effects have been getting fewer and fewer since AD&D because they are lame. Why make up these interesting monsters and PCs if one die roll is going to decide your fate?
Please explain, "...adapt your style and find a way to make things challenging with out cheezing your players."?
Short of only using the creatures listed above, or having every encounter be against a half dozen or more creatures, how would you adapt?
Well the creatures above plus the one with unnaturally high will save for thier level make up a very large mount of creatures in the MM's. Using a standard action to wake up my buddy works very well. Effects the block line of sight , like obscuring mist also work well. Get creative , not sure what else to say really.
Edit - add swarms to that list above as well
Edit 2 - They are what.. Level 5 I think? A perfect example of a monster that they could fight that is there level but also has the tools to survive are phase spiders. As a free acion these guy can go etheral and "invisable". While like this they can also move up and down and through stuff. I dont think they count as being cheeze to your party either because they have access to things like see invisability , purge and the like. I stand by my belief that you shouldnt alter a monsters entry just to make things harder. Nothing says " im going to be changing dms now " like seeing your party is all magic users and changing the entire games to work around golems and the new big bad has globe of invunerability.
The hex is also 30' from the witch. That's not all that far. Lots of creatures have ranged attacks, place some archers on the field, spread out the challenge. Instead of using a 7th level baddie, make him lv6 and get 3 ranger 2 mooks. Also, Iron Will.
Taigon - Umm, you just suggested an encounter that will be plowed through EASILY by the witch.
Phase spiders have a +3 will save. The witches slumber hex is going to be what? DC 17ish. Since the phase spider has no ranged attack, it will phase in within coup de grace range, and everyone will have to ready actions anyway.
One spider fails his save, and gets coupe de graced, and even if the other saves, it has become a fairly easy encounter. If both fail, the party has just beaten a "Hard" encounter, and used not 50%, not 25%, bit ZERO resources. This is an ideal encounter for the slumber hex!
That is why slumber is overpowered.
|
|
Thanks guys.
Yeah, I guess the second Scrag could've used a Free Action in round two to scream at the sleeping Scrag to wake up (what Perception DC to awake??) -- they were "just more" than fireball-area-of-effect away from each other so, hmmm, a Standard Action wakes someone up, you say?....
.... Looking at the Witch doesn't make me think of the 3.5 Warlock at all. But maybe I saw Warlocks being played much differently -- though I did see Warlocks ALOT back in 3E.
.... Oooh, didn't see the 30' Range on Sleepy Hex. Thanks!
We'll just keep all the immune-to-sleep and lots-of-mooks stuff in mind and only let that MY-WITCH-CAN-RUIN-THE-GAME stuff shine occassionally (can't trump the PC's stuff all the time, of course).
Sleep hex is balanced it get one guy that it per round. (and verse mass horde it hugely week cause yes get one guy each round but guy #2 of 12 just wakes him up)
If you start nefing it where do you stop. I mean what next, Smite, Sneak attack, Favored enemy, turn burst ect...
(2 randomly encountered scrags) so it was fill fight not a bose fight or end story fight. Big deal. So 10-15 minute fight became 5 minutes. So now you have time to do more or one against
Elves are immune to sleep and charm
Urban Druids over level 10 are immune to Compulsions (sleep, charm, holds, etc)
Constructs would be immune to sleep/charm spells
Dragons are immune to sleep or paralysis effects/spells.
Ooze are immune to sleep/charm spells
Plants creatures are immune to sleep spells
Undead are immune to sleep spells
Elemental subtype are immune to sleep effects
6 of the 13 monster base types are immune to it... Use a wider range of monsters.
Also at 5th level most folk start to think in the 3rd diminution. Ie fly hex for 5 minutes big deal fly spell just as long. It the Feather fall at will self only that strong but the is only ring that only 2,200 gp so how strong is that really…
Taigon - Umm, you just suggested an encounter that will be plowed through EASILY by the witch.
Phase spiders have a +3 will save. The witches slumber hex is going to be what? DC 17ish.
One spider fails his save, and gets coupe de graced, and even if the other saves, it has become a fairly easy encounter. If both fail, the party has just beaten a "Hard" encounter, and used not 50%, not 25%, bit ZERO resources.
That is why slumber is overpowered.
The witch has to see them first, the invisablilty is a free action. It lets you get a good fight in while not making for pcs trivial. A sleeping phase spider is still not on the material plane. If yours looking for TPW them just send them against a CR 25 and be done with it.
Edit - slumber is balanced. You get one guy a round with in 30ft once per day per guy. have his buddy use a standard action to wake him up and move on.
What was the other bad-guy doing while his buddy was getting put to sleep?
I never hear anyone complain when a Barbarian uses a standard action to squish a BG with one hit... "What that's what he is supposed to do! Smash things"... Well, this is what Witch's are supposed to do control things :). If that means they can potentially take out one-BG a round... It is nothing I have not seen before.
Thanks guys.
Yeah, I guess the second Scrag could've used a Free Action in round two to scream at the sleeping Scrag to wake up (what Perception DC to awake??) -- they were "just more" than fireball-area-of-effect away from each other so, hmmm, a Standard Action wakes someone up, you say?....
.... Looking at the Witch doesn't make me think of the 3.5 Warlock at all. But maybe I saw Warlocks being played much differently -- though I did see Warlocks ALOT back in 3E.
.... Oooh, didn't see the 30' Range on Sleepy Hex. Thanks!
We'll just keep all the immune-to-sleep and lots-of-mooks stuff in mind and only let that MY-WITCH-CAN-RUIN-THE-GAME stuff shine occassionally (can't trump the PC's stuff all the time, of course).
Respect.
Not all GMs can swallow their pride when a player does something to counter their effort in short order. It is not all that hard to challenge players if you are running within the limitations of Core (which I personally suggest everyone does, as it is all too easy to break the game with 3.X material, like the stupid drow cloak that mimics Epic Dodge 3/day, or the tide of unbalanced prestige classes). Get to know their characters, their strengths and weaknesses, and find a balance of encounters to allow them all to shine and strive.
Also, witches are made for debuffs. Like how a fighter is made for beating stuff over the head.
Thanks guys.
Yeah, I guess the second Scrag could've used a Free Action in round two to scream at the sleeping Scrag to wake up (what Perception DC to awake??) -- they were "just more" than fireball-area-of-effect away from each other so, hmmm, a Standard Action wakes someone up, you say?....
.... Looking at the Witch doesn't make me think of the 3.5 Warlock at all. But maybe I saw Warlocks being played much differently -- though I did see Warlocks ALOT back in 3E.
.... Oooh, didn't see the 30' Range on Sleepy Hex. Thanks!
We'll just keep all the immune-to-sleep and lots-of-mooks stuff in mind and only let that MY-WITCH-CAN-RUIN-THE-GAME stuff shine occassionally (can't trump the PC's stuff all the time, of course).
Respect.
Not all GMs can swallow their pride when a player does something to counter their effort in short order. It is not all that hard to challenge players if you are running within the limitations of Core (which I personally suggest everyone does, as it is all too easy to break the game with 3.X material, like the stupid drow cloak that mimics Epic Dodge 3/day, or the tide of unbalanced prestige classes). Get to know their characters, their strengths and weaknesses, and find a balance of encounters to allow them all to shine and strive.
Also, witches are made for debuffs. Like how a fighter is made for beating stuff over the head.
I agree , your handling the situation very well. Another idea might be to have less monster based challenges and add in more traps or haunts or even puzzles. Cant sleep a pit ;p
|
|
Keep in mind the OP guys: "potential problem."
It was just the first fight with a new PC with a Class that, though we had browsed the APG, hadn't really seen. And it was like, "Whoa, stop the press."
I hate crunch so when I forsee a "potential" problem I come here and let my crunch Paizonians help.
And you've been a big help; I'm convinced now that it won't be broken.
Keep in mind the OP guys: "potential problem."
It was just the first fight with a new PC with a Class that, though we had browsed the APG, hadn't seen. And it was like, "Whoa, stop the press."
I hate crunch so when I forsee a "potential" problem I come here and let my crunch Paizonians help.
And you've been a big help; I'm convinced now that it won't be broken.
Besides the crunch factor, already covered, don't forget the campaign factor... it is easy to assume that many enemies of a certain intelligence (including e.g. goblinoids), especially superstitious ones, can be wary of witches or prospective witches and their "mind tricks"... so, it is fair that the Witch PC in your party becomes the target of choice for many monsters, especially once she puts to sleep, for instance, a couple goblins... if others notice, the next encounter will probably start peppering him/her with arrows/stones/whatever from a distance, or rush her, etc etc...
Keep in mind the OP guys: "potential problem."
It was just the first fight with a new PC with a Class that, though we had browsed the APG, hadn't really seen. And it was like, "Whoa, stop the press."
I hate crunch so when I forsee a "potential" problem I come here and let my crunch Paizonians help.
And you've been a big help; I'm convinced now that it won't be broken.
I must admit, I remember when it was first used in one of our games there was some shock value. We had anticipated the Witch to be underpowered, and were caught off guard when he used the slumber ability. Especially, since it is basically at will.
When it comes to witch's slumber hex I think I'm going allow save per round. No one in our group has played a witch yet but I have feeling it's just a matter of time.
Slightly OT, but I recall a 3.5 game where the GM wanted to railroad us all into a particular situation and decided to hit us with some kind of power word sleep trap with a nearly impossible to make save. All of us failed the save.
My GM smirked. "You all fall asleep."
I blinked, realized what he said, and shook my head. "No I don't. I'm a half-elf. Racial immunity to all magic sleep."
The look on his face is a satisfying memory to this day.
At any rate, sounds like there are plenty of things to do about the Witch's slumber ability. Good luck.
The witch has to see them first, the invisablilty is a free action. It lets you get a good fight in while not making for pcs trivial. A sleeping phase spider is still not on the material plane. If yours looking for TPW them just send them against a CR 25 and be done with it.Edit - slumber is balanced. You get one guy a round with in 30ft once per day per guy. have his buddy use a standard action to wake him up and move on.
I guess I'm confused by the whole "invisibility" thing. All the witch needs to do is ready vs the thing being on the material plane, then Slumber Hex, then wait for a friend to coup de grace it. I would encourage you to play it out in your mind. Again, the encounter you are suggesting is easy meat for a slumber.
The rules for waking someone up from the sleep spell say that you must use slapping or damage to wake someone, and reference the aid another action.
If your idea of fixing slumber is to simply not use most of the monsters in the books, and/or only use them as hoards of mooks, by all means go for it. Short of that, it takes very little tactics to use slumber as written to make the party a coup de grace machine that 1-shots creatures an infinite number of times per day.
NOTE: If slumber was one of the witches primary abilities, I would say that it is OK as written. However witches are bad-ass full casters with plenty of great abilities. Slumber is just the added use-at-will ability that puts them over the top - in a way that isn't fun for anyone.
The witch is annoying, I agree - sleep hex just isn't kosher. But:
- Only one enemy is targeted per round
- Waking someone up is only a standard action (provided you adjacent)
It is not that hard to have those two facts modify encounters to work in a way that will challenge the party and the character as a whole. And if that fails, there are many ways to get immunity to mind/compel effects.
Also remember that Coup de Grace is a full-round action that provokes an Attack of Opportunity.
So the Witch sleeps a target. Another character then has to move up to that target and on the following round he can do the full-round Coup de Grace.
As long as the target is not alone it is far easier for an ally to move and wake him with a Standard action. You can even just shot your friend with an arrow if you are desperate. Yeah it will hurt, but not as much as a Coup de Grace.
If this is a BBEG and he gets taken out by the Slumber Hex, well, a Hold Person or Deep Slumber spell would have the same effect and you would still have a dead BBEG.
Only time this is not true is if the BBEG is <5' away from the party. Then you could 5 foot step and coup de grace.
My group is having a potential problem with a Witch. . .
Yep, witches are pretty awesome at 5th level, but the witch won't really get much better, and the opposition will.
A few things to keep in mind:
- Flight is a 5th level ability (3rd level spell, druid shapechange, etc.) that is awesome at 5th level, and decreases in effectiveness as levels increase. As your party levels, more creatures will have flying, spells, and effective ranged attacks.
- The sleep hex can only be used once per target per day, no retries!
- The sleep hex only has 30' range.
- The sleep hex is useless or very risky against many higher level enemies.
Blueluck pretty mch covered everythign important that needed to be said. Also I believe there is a cantrip on some spell list in the APG that awakens sleeping allies.
The witch's slumber is a powerful ability, no doubt. But it has limitations and easy counters just like every other hunk of character cheese out there.
I also have a policy of "do unto others". Essentially whatever cheese the characters unleash on me, I have the right to unleash on them. IT gives them pause when they find out that not only have the bad guys found a way to counter their tactics, but also adopted it into their own repertoire.
|
|
Blueluck pretty mch covered everythign important that needed to be said. Also I believe there is a cantrip on some spell list in the APG that awakens sleeping allies.
The witch's slumber is a powerful ability, no doubt. But it has limitations and easy counters just like every other hunk of character cheese out there.
I also have a policy of "do unto others". Essentially whatever cheese the characters unleash on me, I have the right to unleash on them. IT gives them pause when they find out that not only have the bad guys found a way to counter their tactics, but also adopted it into their own repertoire.
I try to think 5 min ahead of my DM, and prepare my guy (im a wizard) spell slots so 'ok the spells are far what i think he wqould put up agasint my party, and these spells are the stuff to deal with what i think he well counter us....'
so far its worke3d out greatMy wizard is the only one that hasnt been hit (4 levels of play) never been parlized or anything like that...
And i never use mage armour.....
I guess I'm confused by the whole "invisibility" thing. All the witch needs to do is ready vs the thing being on the material plane, then Slumber Hex, then wait for a friend to coup de grace it. I would encourage you to play it out in your mind. Again, the encounter you are suggesting (phase spiders) is easy meat for a slumber.
I'd tend to disagree. Phase spiders are an ambush predator with the special abilities needed to start any fight out with a bang. I'd expect most fights to begin with the spiders using their surprise round to deliver a big, ugly bite and pop back into the ethereal plane. A nice, squishy witch would make an excellent target. Sure, they're in for a rougher time once the party is on its guard, but they're hardly pushovers.
If your idea of fixing slumber is to simply not use most of the monsters in the books, and/or only use them as hoards of mooks, by all means go for it. Short of that, it takes very little tactics to use slumber as written to make the party a coup de grace machine that 1-shots creatures an infinite number of times per day.
While the witch's slumber hex is potent against a variety of targets, other classes have comparably-destructive abilities. The main difference is that the witch's power comes down to one saving throw where the barbarian's raging full power attack or the min/max archer's ranged barrage require several rolls. Hold firm about the hex's range and other limits and its power can be kept in check.
My group is having a potential problem with a Witch.
Recently, a PC got killed and the Player, with his shiny new APG, has brought in a witch. No problem there.
The group is APL 5 so the new PC witch is 5th level. No problem there.
But in our first fight with the Witch (2 randomly encountered scrags) he put them to sleep and the other PCs just surrounded them one at a time; one PC would perform a coup de gras and the others, as the scrag awoke, killed it.
It was not a fight. That's where the problem is.
The Witch can put any HD creature to Sleep (Will Save negates) and when you add his flying, levitating and other above-5th-level abilities, it kinda seems broken.
As I recall, the PC has the "Make Everyone Sleep" and "Move Around Alot" Class Features.
Can you guys show some crunch stuff that better illuminates the Witch as a Class: what parts are broken / not broken, how to handle things RAW, what Houserules other DMs are incorporating, that kinda schtick?
.... Or, at least provide a linky to a few other Threads that have dealt with the Witch?Thanks.
(Oh, and feel free to check out the Campaign Journal "The Wizard of Witchfire Mt: A Sandbox Campaign in the Sterich March"
I had a witch in one of my games, and they are annoying at low levels, but the monster's save eventually catch up, and the sleep thing does not work as much. Evil Eye does stay useful though. Just remember Evil and maybe Sleep requires a witch to be within 30 feet. The witch's best spells seem to be necromancy or enchantment. Undead and constructs don't care about such spells.
One thing I did was to not use single monster encounters a lot, at least not until lawter levels. Swapping out monster feats for Iron Will and Improved Iron Will is also a good idea since the sleep hex can only be performed on a particular creature once per 24 hours. I think all bad guys should have ranged attacks if possible. What monsters have you been using?
One thing to mention:
Witches can get sleep hex, which can be auto coup-de-grace on one target.
the biggest advantage i can see is the fact that there isnt a limit on uses per day..
Wizards can get color spray..
How many times have I seen a low lvl encounter where wizard/sorcerer is like 'ok, color spray... 4 out of those 6 baddies in the cone fail their save.. ok lets see they are unconscious for 2d4 rounds. everyone go coup-de-grace them and then we are on their way as long as someone distracts the 2 that made their saves' or whatever. and yes i know color spray gets way weaker after a lvl or two, but still... plus a heavens oracle can make use of it till much later anyway.
just my 2c
|
|
If your idea of fixing slumber is to simply not use most of the monsters in the books, and/or only use them as hoards of mooks, ....
Well, in general there's some give and take. A good DM would never go all the way here. Occassionally a DM has to give an encounter where the Witch's Hex will really work -- and some where it won't. Otherwise the DM would just be trumping the PC's good stuff. That's the same as a DM constantly using NPCs with Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Fortification and such so the "Rogue-that's-broken-with-Sneak-Attack" isn't broken anymore. You gotta give the Enchanter the occassional monster with a low Will Save; you gotta give the Ranger his Favored Enemy, etc.
Even at higher levels there is nothing stopping the witch from taking ABILITY FOCUS for her sleep hex and using any one of the myriad of debuffs that she has to keep up with higher level enemies.
Get your save DC as high as you can, hit their saves with a deuff hex, then hit them with a sleep hex.
Though it's potency might wane and waver, it stays useful through all levels if you know what you're doing.
|
|
Even at higher levels there is nothing stopping the witch from taking ABILITY FOCUS for her sleep hex and using any one of the myriad of debuffs that she has to keep up with higher level enemies.
Get your save DC as high as you can, hit their saves with a deuff hex, then hit them with a sleep hex.
Though it's potency might wane and waver, it stays useful through all levels if you know what you're doing.
Where does it say that the witch hexs are Ability?
|
|
Paizo has printed assassins with Ability Focus: Death Attack, and I believe suggested using it on Stunning Fist. Where does it say the hexes are NOT abilities?
Where does it say that the witch hexs are Ability?
I noticed with pazio there response to most questions is if it doesn't say it, its not there.
The obvious solution that people tend to miss is that it only takes a standard action to wake up a sleeping monster. That's one goblin minion to go running to the troll boss and rustle him a bit to completely end the effect.
That's at least how I've dealt with it so far and it's no longer a problem.
They're all abilities: extraordinary once or twice, mostly supernatural. Since slumber is a supernatural ability (that's that su. in parentheses after "slumber"), seems fair to let someone take Ability Focus for it.
It seems to me I'm getting in on the tail-end of this discussion, but I'll toss my non-mechanical tuppence in anyway:
Consider the moral implications of wantonly killing helpless opponents. If you have any Paladins, Lawful Good/Neutral Clerics, or even just plain "moral" characters, wading through the blood of the helpless should -not- sit well with them. Using sleep-y effects to put opponents in a position where you can demand their surrender, sure. Putting opponents to sleep so you can slit their throats (or allow your allies to do so) is in no way or shape "moral", "good" or "lawful" for a significant number of opponents, intelligent or humanoid ones in particular.
|
|
Consider the moral implications of wantonly killing helpless opponents....
It is something all groups have to consider.
We certainly have a Paladin: -- among other do-gooders.
But it's up to the Player running the strongly Aligned PC, along with the DM, to determine what that Alignment means in game.
In this case the Paladin in question (run by ME) knows that if it Detects as Evil, it's fair game. See, he's incredibly stupid and has ABSOLUTELY NO Diplomacy or Sense Motive (well, +4CHA & +3WIS, but...), and so he is not in to rehabilitation. He's not qualified. What Pelor and Mayaheine and Lydia and Ehlonna and a few others have done is give him the qualifications and desire and duty to kill evil.
And that's what he does.
.... This actually works well in our game because other PCs, though not goody-goody Pallys, are still goody-goody and would MUCH rather rehabilitate.
Against some monsters, though, rehabilitation ain't exactly an option (as per DM style), and that's where really has fun -- Thibbledorf Pwent fun!
I agree. Coup de grace isn't exactly "sporting" but it is almost the definition of a quick death. In a world where demons, devils, and various other pure evil races kill and destroy for their evil gods, things are very different then our own purely subjective definitions of good and evil.
Good points all around, and at the risk of beating a dead horse, I just want to add one more thing. The slumber hex is best used with a readied action. The witch readies for the creature to be in melee range, uses the hex, and then the melee guy does the coup de grace on his turn (you might be able to delay, but the language is a little tricky). Throw in enlarge person, a longspear or glaive, and you can coup de grace someone 20' away.
The witch has to see them first, the invisablilty is a free action. It lets you get a good fight in while not making for pcs trivial. A sleeping phase spider is still not on the material plane. If yours looking for TPW them just send them against a CR 25 and be done with it.Edit - slumber is balanced. You get one guy a round with in 30ft once per day per guy. have his buddy use a standard action to wake him up and move on.
I guess I'm confused by the whole "invisibility" thing. All the witch needs to do is ready vs the thing being on the material plane, then Slumber Hex, then wait for a friend to coup de grace it. I would encourage you to play it out in your mind. Again, the encounter you are suggesting is easy meat for a slumber.
The rules for waking someone up from the sleep spell say that you must use slapping or damage to wake someone, and reference the aid another action.
If your idea of fixing slumber is to simply not use most of the monsters in the books, and/or only use them as hoards of mooks, by all means go for it. Short of that, it takes very little tactics to use slumber as written to make the party a coup de grace machine that 1-shots creatures an infinite number of times per day.
NOTE: If slumber was one of the witches primary abilities, I would say that it is OK as written. However witches are bad-ass full casters with plenty of great abilities. Slumber is just the added use-at-will ability that puts them over the top - in a way that isn't fun for anyone.
To wake up from a witches slumber hex takes a standard action. If there is a friend with in movement range the hex is next to useless or might as well be the daze spell.
In your senario the witch readys. I ,as the dm, have the spider have the spider move and not attack. now the witch is at the bottom of the order and the spiders free to act until she can ready again. rinse repeat.
Edit - I would encourage you to play it out with tactics in your mind instead of the standard " Monster attack until dead RAWRRRRR!!!"
Slumber is not over powered, the Phase Spider can come in Invisible and Phased before the party knows their there ;)
Does the Slumber Hex provoke AoO and can it be disrupted like a normal spell?
Slumber is not over powered, the Phase Spider can come in Invisible and Phased before the party knows their there ;)
Phase Spiders have no invisibility, nor anything else that makes them special on the material plane. If they are on the ethereal plane (phased?), they can not affect the material plane. Since everyone is going to have to ready actions anyway, and the spider has no abilities beyond a bite attack, it will always be in coupe de grace rage if it wants to do anything.
To wake up from a witches slumber hex takes a standard action. If there is a friend with in movement range the hex is next to useless or might as well be the daze spell.In your senario the witch readys. I ,as the dm, have the spider have the spider move and not attack. now the witch is at the bottom of the order and the spiders free to act until she can ready again. rinse repeat.
Edit - I would encourage you to play it out with tactics in your mind...
The key difference between daze and slumber is that one causes a missed action, the other leaves you unconscious, prone, and presumably, you drop everything you were holding. So slumber causes team monster to lose a round of actions for two monsters, and causes one to provoke an AoO standing up, with zero expenditure of resources... what part of that isn't great for team witch?
I don't think you are understanding the value of readying an action. So you move, while the witch is readying... You have accomplished nothing, and neither has the witch. Since the action was never triggered, initiative is unaffected. The next round, the witch readies again, you enter the material plane, slumber goes off, followed by a coup de grace. In short, no matter how the spider dances around, he still can't accomplish anything without getting hit by the slumber (once the party has become aware of a threat). If you have any tactics that would hep the spiders in that situation, please post.
Initiative Consequences of Readying: Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don't get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.
Does the Slumber Hex provoke AoO and can it be disrupted like a normal spell?
As a (Su) or supernatural ability, no it does not. As far as I can tell, the witch can also do it in any form (beastshape, form of the____, etc.)
Supernatural Abilities: These can't be disrupted in combat and generally don't provoke attacks of opportunity. They aren't subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or dispel magic, and don't function in antimagic areas.
No SR!