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Ok, so here's the issue. In the group I am currently in, three of us DM (not in the same campaign- one of the other players and myself just happen to DM when not playing)and an issue has come up with Lightning Bolt. Both the actual DM and the other player seem to think that despite being a Line Spell, it only hits the first target "unless it does sufficient damage to destroy that target" as in the spell description.
I do not think this is the case. For some reason I believe that Lightning Bolt acts just like every other Line Spell in the game, and hits every target in the line. Furthermore, I think that the rules for it destroying objects in its way relate the the "Line of Effect" rules in the Core Book, rather than monsters stupidly standing in rows.
I have multiple reasons why Lightning Bolt should work this way, ranging from comparisons with Fireball to cross-checking with 3rd level Ray Spells like Sound Lance.
Of course, both the DM and player in question thought that Lightning Bolt also needed a Ranged Touch Attack to Hit, implying that they didn't read the rules. So I thought I'd ask here.
We are playing 3.5 with some Pathfinder material, but since the rules for Line Spells are the same in both, it shouldn't matter.
Thanks.
It says "deals damage to EACH creature in its area".
area=120 ft line.
I think thats pretty clear-every "target" gets a hit.
The lightning bolt hits everyone in the line.
While logic might dictate that the first target hit would create a path to ground, lightning bolt has never been nor is it intended to be a single target evocation. Indeed in prior incarnations it even did relatively nonsensical things like bounce off solid walls. If it was supposed to be a single target evocation it would be indicated on it's spell description and would like function like a ranged touch attack ray (ala scorching ray or polar ray).
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Ok, thanks. Hopefully this will change some minds.
Also, on the subject of "Wait...whaaat?" The player in my group also believes that since the rules allow Wizards to add spells to their Spellbooks via copying from Scrolls, that they can do so with ANY Scroll.
IE: A 5th level wizard gets a Divine Scroll of Cure Serious Wounds created by a 5th level Cleric. He then Copies the Spell into his Spellbook and can from then on prepare Cure Serious Wounds, presumably as a 3rd level Arcane Spell.
Say it with me now: "Wait... whaaat?"
Horrible, horrible game balance issues notwithstanding, could somebody come in here and state that Wizards don't cast Divine Spells? Please?
Also, this is funny: nowhere in the rules for Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook does it state that you can't add Divine Spells from Scrolls. I would think this would be commons sense... but you know...
Thanks again.
No need to say something specifically Ninten, but note it says under Spells in the Wizard class description that they cast spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. Last I checked, cure serious wounds isn't on there, so no, they can't cast it. Also, nowhere does it say that a wizard can decipher a divine writing and add it into their spellbooks either. I dislike using such methods, but the magic section says under Arcane Magical Writings the methods for arcane magical writings. The following section refers to this section, saying nothing about divine writings being allowed whatsoever.
Ok, thanks. Hopefully this will change some minds.
Also, on the subject of "Wait...whaaat?" The player in my group also believes that since the rules allow Wizards to add spells to their Spellbooks via copying from Scrolls, that they can do so with ANY Scroll.
IE: A 5th level wizard gets a Divine Scroll of Cure Serious Wounds created by a 5th level Cleric. He then Copies the Spell into his Spellbook and can from then on prepare Cure Serious Wounds, presumably as a 3rd level Arcane Spell.
Say it with me now: "Wait... whaaat?"
Horrible, horrible game balance issues notwithstanding, could somebody come in here and state that Wizards don't cast Divine Spells? Please?
Also, this is funny: nowhere in the rules for Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook does it state that you can't add Divine Spells from Scrolls. I would think this would be commons sense... but you know...
Thanks again.
Spells: A wizard casts arcane spells drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list presented in Spell Lists. A wizard must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time.
I am pretty sure that spell list is limited. :)
Spellbooks: A wizard must study his spellbook each day to prepare his spells. He cannot prepare any spell not recorded in his spellbook, except for read magic, which all wizards can prepare from memory.
A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from his prohibited schools, if any; see Arcane Schools) plus three 1st-level spells of his choice. The wizard also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells equal to his Intelligence modifier to add to the spellbook. At each new wizard level, he gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new wizard level) for his spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards' spellbooks to his own (see Magic).
As noted above a wizard can only cast spells from his spell list.
Ok, thanks. Hopefully this will change some minds.
Also, on the subject of "Wait...whaaat?" The player in my group also believes that since the rules allow Wizards to add spells to their Spellbooks via copying from Scrolls, that they can do so with ANY Scroll.
IE: A 5th level wizard gets a Divine Scroll of Cure Serious Wounds created by a 5th level Cleric. He then Copies the Spell into his Spellbook and can from then on prepare Cure Serious Wounds, presumably as a 3rd level Arcane Spell.
Say it with me now: "Wait... whaaat?"
Horrible, horrible game balance issues notwithstanding, could somebody come in here and state that Wizards don't cast Divine Spells? Please?
Also, this is funny: nowhere in the rules for Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook does it state that you can't add Divine Spells from Scrolls. I would think this would be commons sense... but you know...
Thanks again.
Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook
Wizards can add new spells to their spellbooks through several methods. A wizard can only learn new spells that belong to the wizard spell lists.
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Second line of the first paragraph: "A wizard can only learn new spells that belong to the wizard spell lists."
And as others have said, yes, the Lightning Bolt spell works exactly the same as every other line effect in the game.
EDIT: four replies in three minutes, three of which site the precise text. These forums are awesome.
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Ok, thanks. Hopefully this will change some minds.
Also, on the subject of "Wait...whaaat?" The player in my group also believes that since the rules allow Wizards to add spells to their Spellbooks via copying from Scrolls, that they can do so with ANY Scroll.
IE: A 5th level wizard gets a Divine Scroll of Cure Serious Wounds created by a 5th level Cleric. He then Copies the Spell into his Spellbook and can from then on prepare Cure Serious Wounds, presumably as a 3rd level Arcane Spell.
Say it with me now: "Wait... whaaat?"
Horrible, horrible game balance issues notwithstanding, could somebody come in here and state that Wizards don't cast Divine Spells? Please?
Also, this is funny: nowhere in the rules for Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook does it state that you can't add Divine Spells from Scrolls. I would think this would be commons sense... but you know...
Thanks again.
You can always point out this section:
Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook
Wizards can add new spells to their spellbooks through several methods. A wizard can only learn new spells that belong to the wizard spell lists.
ninja'd by many! :P
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Ok, thanks. Hopefully this will change some minds.
Also, on the subject of "Wait...whaaat?" The player in my group also believes that since the rules allow Wizards to add spells to their Spellbooks via copying from Scrolls, that they can do so with ANY Scroll.
IE: A 5th level wizard gets a Divine Scroll of Cure Serious Wounds created by a 5th level Cleric. He then Copies the Spell into his Spellbook and can from then on prepare Cure Serious Wounds, presumably as a 3rd level Arcane Spell.
Say it with me now: "Wait... whaaat?"
Horrible, horrible game balance issues notwithstanding, could somebody come in here and state that Wizards don't cast Divine Spells? Please?
Also, this is funny: nowhere in the rules for Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook does it state that you can't add Divine Spells from Scrolls. I would think this would be commons sense... but you know...
Thanks again.
I think they maybe be able to copy the spell...
But even if they can copy it, they still can't cast or prepare it.
Bards have an arcane version of cure light/moderate/ serious but its not a wizard spell, so they can't cas that either even tho its arcane.
If its not under "wizard/sorcerer spells" they can't cast it.
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As for the adding spells, I would be more tolerant of a sorcerer adding divine spells to their list due to the following lines:
Spells: A sorcerer casts arcane spells drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list presented in Spell Lists.
(so you can use other sources)
and
A sorcerer's selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of her choice. At each new sorcerer level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study.
but even then, you had better have a good RP reason to do so.
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Thanks guys. I'm not planning on rubbing anything in anybody's faces. But it's nice to know I'm justified in thinking they're crazy.
All this came about, by the way, due to my character, a Summoner 4/Oracle 4 (his Mystery is basically "the Mystery of counting half your Oracle levels as Summoner levels for Summoner Class Features") He will be taking Mystic Theurge next level, and so I wanted to begin working on inventing a spell which would be inspired by the Magic card "Lightning Helix". It would be a single target Lightning Ray (1d6/lvl, 10d6 Max) or a slightly nerfed Cure Serious Wounds(no bonus for CL),my choice at time of casting, that would count as both an Arcane and Divine spell that I could prepare in any of my 3rd level slots.
"Ok cool" says the DM: "Then you can teach it to the Wizard in the group so he can heal."
Yeah, no. I take 4 levels of two spontaneous casting classes and a PrC so that I can make Arcane/Divine connections, invent a spell, and then roll it over to the Wizard so that he can prepare it at 5th level and Born of Three Thunders it, while I'm still casting 3rd level spells at 11th level? Does anybody else think is is highly uncool and walks all over my character concept?
Also, since I'm technically a Sorcerer analogue, said Wizard couldn't even teach me Fireball in return.
As for the adding spells, I would be more tolerant of a sorcerer adding divine spells to their list due to the following lines:
Spells: A sorcerer casts arcane spells drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list presented in Spell Lists.(so you can use other sources)
and
A sorcerer's selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of her choice. At each new sorcerer level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study.but even then, you had better have a good RP reason to do so.
I think that is going back to the 3.5 rule that allowed you to create your own spells, but I don't think Pathfinder even mentioned it. It would be cool to see a sorcerer throwing out divine spells though. A celestial bloodline with a cure spell or a restoration spell would make sense.
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I think that is going back to the 3.5 rule that allowed you to create your own spells, but I don't think Pathfinder even mentioned it. It would be cool to see a sorcerer throwing out divine spells though. A celestial bloodline with a cure spell or a restoration spell would make sense.As for the adding spells, I would be more tolerant of a sorcerer adding divine spells to their list due to the following lines:
Spells: A sorcerer casts arcane spells drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list presented in Spell Lists.(so you can use other sources)
and
A sorcerer's selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of her choice. At each new sorcerer level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study.but even then, you had better have a good RP reason to do so.
I agree, but that is the only loophole like that I can see in the RAW. If you check Wizards, they say nothing like that.
Ok, thanks. Hopefully this will change some minds.
Also, on the subject of "Wait...whaaat?" The player in my group also believes that since the rules allow Wizards to add spells to their Spellbooks via copying from Scrolls, that they can do so with ANY Scroll.
IE: A 5th level wizard gets a Divine Scroll of Cure Serious Wounds created by a 5th level Cleric. He then Copies the Spell into his Spellbook and can from then on prepare Cure Serious Wounds, presumably as a 3rd level Arcane Spell.
Say it with me now: "Wait... whaaat?"
Horrible, horrible game balance issues notwithstanding, could somebody come in here and state that Wizards don't cast Divine Spells? Please?
Also, this is funny: nowhere in the rules for Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook does it state that you can't add Divine Spells from Scrolls. I would think this would be commons sense... but you know...
Thanks again.
I'd tell him "sure you can write as many divine spells in your book that you want to. you still can't cast them though because wizards cast arcane spells."
I agree, but that is the only loophole like that I can see in the RAW. If you check Wizards, they say nothing like that.I think that is going back to the 3.5 rule that allowed you to create your own spells, but I don't think Pathfinder even mentioned it. It would be cool to see a sorcerer throwing out divine spells though. A celestial bloodline with a cure spell or a restoration spell would make sense.As for the adding spells, I would be more tolerant of a sorcerer adding divine spells to their list due to the following lines:
Spells: A sorcerer casts arcane spells drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list presented in Spell Lists.(so you can use other sources)
and
A sorcerer's selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of her choice. At each new sorcerer level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study.but even then, you had better have a good RP reason to do so.
Perhaps this is just referring to the bonus spells that Sorcerers receive because of their bloodline, which aren't on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. A Wizard on the other hand does not receive bonus spells because of the schools he picks. Hence the "primarily" from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, and the "unusual" spells that he/she got a better understanding of. I doubt it was written to imply that a Sorcerer could learn Divine spells - that would be craaaazy!
People get all kinds of crazy beliefs about spells. I had a dungeon master who said that freedom of movement would make you fall in water since the water had no effect on you.
Interesting... very interesting. One is not effected by the water buoyancy and there for falls throw water. :0 ohhhhh Very interesting interpretation :)
This thread makes me want to start a "Silly Interpretations of Rules" thread.
Though. I'm sure that exists. Somewhere...