Flyby Attack (attack of opportunity)


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Quote:
Benefit: When flying, the creature can take a move action and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.

Does using the Flyby Attack feat provoke an attack of opportunity?

Can any standard action be used with this feat or does it have to be an attack (as the name implies)?


reefwood wrote:
Quote:
Benefit: When flying, the creature can take a move action and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.

Does using the Flyby Attack feat provoke an attack of opportunity?

Can any standard action be used with this feat or does it have to be an attack (as the name implies)?

I haven't godt experience with this, but by RAW I'd say yes to both.

1) Compare it to Spring Attack, which directly states that there is no AoO against the target.

2) It allows a standard action as written, so that could be anything.


HaraldKlak wrote:

I haven't godt experience with this, but by RAW I'd say yes to both.

1) Compare it to Spring Attack, which directly states that there is no AoO against the target.

2) It allows a standard action as written, so that could be anything.

Thanks, and that's what I figured. It seems a bit odd for Flyby Attack to provoke an attack of opportunity, but then again, it is sort of like the cheap easy way to earn Spring Attack with less prerequisites, so with that in mind, it makes sense that it isn't as awesome/powerful.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Well, if you want to make it more powerful just add a note that creatures with a non-magical racial ability to fly don't provoke when using this feat.

That would simulate some kind of evolutionary trait of the creature at how it makes its flying attack.

Or create another feat called Improved Flyby Attack. ;)


HaraldKlak wrote:
reefwood wrote:
Quote:
Benefit: When flying, the creature can take a move action and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.

Does using the Flyby Attack feat provoke an attack of opportunity?

Can any standard action be used with this feat or does it have to be an attack (as the name implies)?

I haven't godt experience with this, but by RAW I'd say yes to both.

1) Compare it to Spring Attack, which directly states that there is no AoO against the target.

2) It allows a standard action as written, so that could be anything.

I disagree, about the AoO. If we compare to the rideby attack, which is essentially the same, apart from it is done from a horseback instead. The rideby attack does NOT provoke an AoO. So under the same circumstances it makes most sense that Flyby attack doesn't provoke an AoO eighter.

From PRD:

Ride-By Attack (Combat)
While mounted and charging, you can move, strike at a foe, and then continue moving.

Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat.

Benefit: When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can't exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Hm.
In general flyby attack is combined with a movement (through space) of a creature which per se provokes if the creature leaves a threatened square (or equivalent for 3D movement).
Rideby seems different because
a) it is based off of charge
b) you are mounted.

Going back to the charge describtion in the combat section of 20pfsrd.com I do not find the text mentioning anything concerning AoO so I would assume that you also incur AoO when charging.

What I do find, is this:

Quote:

Provoking an Attack of Opportunity

Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing certain actions within a threatened square.
Moving

Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.

So I would agree, that the fly by manouver incurs AoO.

Ruyan.


I must say, that i do not see your point about the Charge. When charging the AC is lowered by 2, thus making the charging character easier to hit.

What difference does it make if a giant eagle is airborne, dives, claws it's target (with only one talon, as we are talking about a standard action), and continues away with the same speed, compare to a knight riding by swinging his sword a the target, and continues galloping away?

What makes the knight AND his mount harder to hit?

They are both "approach, attack, withdraw" combinations done in one movement. Therefore the same rules should be applied to them, IMO.

- Deer


reefwood wrote:
Quote:
Benefit: When flying, the creature can take a move action and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.

Does using the Flyby Attack feat provoke an attack of opportunity?

Can any standard action be used with this feat or does it have to be an attack (as the name implies)?

Any standard action. "Attack" has more meanings than "attack action", even in Pathfinder. There are ways to attack others that do not involve attack rolls.

I think this feat was created with fire-breathing dragons in mind.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Well, there seems to be a difference in wording between fly by and ride by. One incurs no AoO, in the other it is not mentioned.

So, here general trumps special; moving past an opponent, leaving a threatened square does incur AoO (holds for charge, fly by), while ride by seems to be special and it's explicitely stated that you don't incur an AoO while performing the necessary set of actions.

The two points mentioned are my attempt to categorize the different combat actions.

Ruyan.


Hmm, is does make sense, what you say. Im more argumenting for that it Should be mentioned. We are talking about a monsterfeat so poorly written that its general description goes against the detailed benefit description. Leaving the flyby attack open to AoO makes it almost useless to monsters without magic or ranged attacks.

Specific, im playing a Druid with a Roc companion.
There is no reason that the Roc should make a flyby where he can only make one bite attack, if he still gets bashed by everything nearby, when he could go into normal close combat and gain full attack with bite and two talons.

I would like to hear an official ruling from paizo, and maybe that they would rewrite the feat. Its horrible flawed as it is.

I agree with you, as the rules are written, flyby does provoke AoO.
But won't you at least agree that it doesn't make much sense, when compared to rideby?

Liberty's Edge

Deer wrote:

Hmm, is does make sense, what you say. Im more argumenting for that it Should be mentioned. We are talking about a monsterfeat so poorly written that its general description goes against the detailed benefit description. Leaving the flyby attack open to AoO makes it almost useless to monsters without magic or ranged attacks.

Specific, im playing a Druid with a Roc companion.
There is no reason that the Roc should make a flyby where he can only make one bite attack, if he still gets bashed by everything nearby, when he could go into normal close combat and gain full attack with bite and two talons.

I would like to hear an official ruling from paizo, and maybe that they would rewrite the feat. Its horrible flawed as it is.

I agree with you, as the rules are written, flyby does provoke AoO.
But won't you at least agree that it doesn't make much sense, when compared to rideby?

The feats are different. Being susceptible to AoO with Flyby Attack is the balancing factor of being able to do any standard action, while both Ride-by Attack and Spring Attack only allow an attack.

Also, with Flyby Attack, your Roc AC can fly down, grab his target and get back high in the air, which is usually a great incentive for said target to stop trying to break the grapple or kill the Roc ;-)


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Hmm, okay, I concur.
I would still ask the good folk of Paizo to rewrite the feat, for it is, as i said, flawed.

I can see that i did not read the details on the rideby close enough, regarding the charge and attack action.

On the other hand, i agree that a grapped creature of course will try to break free, but wouldn't it require lightning reflexes or something to react AS IT IS BEEING GRAPPED?
Sorry for the capitals, but i haven't figured underline out.
Also a grappled foe would still be close to the bird, and would get his normal attack (unless pinned).

In Law there is a term called "precedent", which means that if some rules are applied in a certain way, they shall then be applied the same way in similar cases.

My argument is still that flyby and rideby are so similar, if used to attack, that the same conditions for countering them should be applied.


Looks pretty straightforward to me:

Ride-by attack: Move up to 2x your mount's speed and make a charge attack during movement, without an AoO from your target.

Spring Attack: Move up to your speed and make a single attack during movement, without an AoO from your target.

Shot on the Run: Move up to your speed and make a single ranged attack during movement.

Flyby Attack: Move up to your speed and use a standard action during movement.

The first two let you avoid AoOs from your target, the last two do not. Looks like Flyby Attack is just a more generalized Shot on the Run, that's all. This benefits fliers with ranged weapons, spellcasters, etc, and allows melee types to keep going so they don't end up in close proximity to their targets.

Liberty's Edge

Flyby Attack does provoke AoO's, but the creature flying by might have enough reach to not care. Also, they can get Spring Attack and do both.


Lyrax wrote:
Flyby Attack does provoke AoO's, but the creature flying by might have enough reach to not care. Also, they can get Spring Attack and do both.

No they can't. Each feat works a specific way with regard to actions. Spring Attack limits you to only a melee attack. Flyby Attack allows you to take any standard action. Even if you take the attack you still have to use one feat or the other.

edit:If you are saying that you can take both feats and choose when to use either one depending on circumstances then I agree.


Deer wrote:
On the other hand, i agree that a grapped creature of course will try to break free, but wouldn't it require lightning reflexes or something to react AS IT IS BEEING GRAPPED?

No more or less than it would require it to react as someone runs up to you and grapples you. It's a game abstraction - grapples provoke AoO's, unless you have an ability that they don't.

Quote:
Sorry for the capitals, but i haven't figured underline out.

No underlines, but [ b][ /b] for bold and [ i][ /i] for italics (remove the spaces from inside the []'s).

Quote:

In Law there is a term called "precedent", which means that if some rules are applied in a certain way, they shall then be applied the same way in similar cases.

My argument is still that flyby and rideby are so similar, if used to attack, that the same conditions for countering them should be applied.

Consider the reverse: Flyby attack specifically says you can make any standard action, rideby is only an attack. Why not, under your logic, say that rideby is supposed to allow any standard action? You have one feat which says "Ignore the attack of opportunity, but you're limited to these actions" and another which says "you can do anything, but you suffer AoO's normally"


KaeYoss wrote:

Any standard action. "Attack" has more meanings than "attack action", even in Pathfinder. There are ways to attack others that do not involve attack rolls.

I think this feat was created with fire-breathing dragons in mind.

Actually, I'm kind of fond of using it to get Pixies into Point Blank Range and then out again. :)

But yes, the magic here is the "standard action" - which can include a whole bunch of potentially fun things - breath weapons, spells, wails/etc, grapples -- many of which may take away the opponent's ability to retaliate with said AoO before you leave. (Think flying monk with stunning fist, for instance).

Also, you know, if you're not alone, it may be that someone else has already drawn the AoO and so you're clear. Or, you know, you get +4AC for having Mobility.

The gain here is that you can get in, do something, and then keep on moving without having to then stand there and get swarmed.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Another thing to note is that Ride-by-Attack is a feat possessed by a rider, not the creature doing the movement.

Fly-by-Attack is a monstrous feat that is possessed by the creature doing the movement.

You can't really compare the two as apples to apples - if so, a horse would have to have Ride-by-Attack, not the PC. And because precedent does not apply, you have to go by RAW which gives an AoO for Fly-By.


Hmm, i guess your right :)


all these pale before mounted archery


Deer wrote:

Hmm, is does make sense, what you say. Im more argumenting for that it Should be mentioned. We are talking about a monsterfeat so poorly written that its general description goes against the detailed benefit description. Leaving the flyby attack open to AoO makes it almost useless to monsters without magic or ranged attacks.

Specific, im playing a Druid with a Roc companion.
There is no reason that the Roc should make a flyby where he can only make one bite attack, if he still gets bashed by everything nearby, when he could go into normal close combat and gain full attack with bite and two talons.

I would like to hear an official ruling from paizo, and maybe that they would rewrite the feat. Its horrible flawed as it is.

I agree with you, as the rules are written, flyby does provoke AoO.
But won't you at least agree that it doesn't make much sense, when compared to rideby?

To sum up my response to your posts:

1. Both mounted and flying combat have been imperfect since D&D 3.0 was born.
2. Rideby is a little different, since it's the rider making the attack. Also, it does have one prerequisite feat (Mounted Combat) and a minor skill prereq (1 rank ride.)
3. There was a 3.5 feat "improved flyby attack" that negated AOO, but it had prereqs of dodge and mobility (so it was basically a flying spring attack.)
4. I'd say do away with improved flyby, and if the creature has dodge and mobility (with flyby attack) it becomes like spring attack.
5. Pathfinder changed flight by making "fly" into a skill. They made the "hover" feat somewhat optional, and now it can be accomplised with a skill check (for example, the druid's Roc companion would need to hover to get off its multiattack.) You could easily do the same with improved flyby attack - make it a check (DC 20?) without the feat, and make it automatic with the feat along with some minor benefit.


Do you realize that you are replying to a user who has not posted here in over eight years?


I'll add a little to the necro.

Ride By does provoke AoOs, just not from the target of the attack.

I also agree, Fly By with Reach is the best way to get an attack in the middle of a move.

/cevah

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