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So a +1 weapon requires 1000 gold in raw materials. What constitutes raw materials for this? Do you have to have the gold to buy random stuff like virginal blood and newt's eyes, which implies the necessity of a town or city where these sorts of things are stockpiled for the inevitable adventurer. Does some part of the value of +1 armor or a different +1 weapon constitute raw materials? Some part of the value of a non-magical but still pricey jade figurine?
So a +1 weapon requires 1000 gold in raw materials. What constitutes raw materials for this? Do you have to have the gold to buy random stuff like virginal blood and newt's eyes? Does some part of the value of +1 armor or a different +1 weapon constitute raw materials?
The rules don't specify. It is more of a fluff thing. The important part is the gold. I would not allow someone to create a magic sword in the middle of nowhere without a sword being available for example. I would allow them to enhance a sword that is already there though. For things like magical gloves I assume the basic material such as leather is part of the magic item price. Once again if they are out in the middle of nowhere without access to such material no magic gloves will be created.
Yes.
I don't think it should be a detailed list of "you need 4 newt's eye, 2 ounces of rainbow scales..." But, as detailed as "1,000 gold worth of weapon enchanting goodies". In the case of items (as opposed to Scrolls, Potions) you could have a difference as defined as Weapons are not Armor are not Wands are not Staves are not
Are you thinking of using "Crafting Materials" as loot?
How much is a "Fully equipped laboratory" worth?
GNOME
The first thing that every "crafter" learns is how to make an Reverse Philosopher's Stone. Instead of turning lead into gold, it turns gold into lead...and bestows the magic of the gold (you did know gold was magic, yes?) upon the item to be crafted. Hence, a pile of assorted coins becomes an enchanted sword.
At least, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
I always give highly detailed loot, gems, music boxes, bundles of exotic fabrics. I allow players to use these bits of loot as Material for making magic items. Sure, you could say that you pay the 1000 for incense and the right magic words to say, but I like to think it's more along the lines of enchanting the sword by say...... magically charging a gem, then placing it in the hilt... or the cost of etching magical runes into the armor.
Should've seen the looks on my player's faces when they discovered this, They looked back through the loot lists of all the stuff they hadn't sold up to that point and went mad trying to think of ways to break it down into magic items.
one of the best ones was when they had the mage break down the music box they'd been lugging about since lvl 1 into a clockwork mace that produced music every time it hit. +2 Warhammer with thundering enchantment.
I think it's lame to assume a pile of gold coins turns into a powerful, enchanted item. (and begs the question why not platinum, silver, or copper, too?)
I miss the XP cost, because transferring power and life force made perfect sense for crafting items. In the end days of 3.5e, they had methods of allowing party members to donate XP, too.
As for GP costs, I never assume any actual gold is involved. I assume the gold is used to purchase the materials necessary. For gloves of dexterity, I assume rare herbs and incense is used in the leatherworking for making the gloves. The leather for the gloves is an exotic leather from a rare creature related to speed or reflexes, like the hide of a white dire eagle, or the skin of an air element anaconda snake. The crafter of the gloves are highly experience, as well. Gems related to increasing reflexes and speed are embedded into the knuckles of the gloves. And so on.
Clearly this can only be done in cities, laboratories, wizard colleges, etc. where the resources to put all this together can happen. Also, depending on the caster, the methods are different.
For druid magic item crafters, they use natural methods and elements to form their items. For clerics, they channel divine energies, perform rituals involving powdered valuables, burning exotic materals, etc.
I also allow the use of power components that are the equivalent of GP cost. The horn of the red minotaur can be used towards 1,000gp of the cost of an item to craft, for example. There's a Dragon Magazine issue #317 dedicated to power components. (though article says XP, it also says you can use the market price of the component as GP value for the item's materials needed).
I also allow magic items as raw materials. Like a +2 greatsword being put to use as materials for enchanting armor. I like to think of it as transferring the magic from one item, shaping it, and embedding it into a new one.
You have to be imaginative and realistic. I just find it weird for someone to collect gold coins enough to run a kingdom just to make a +5 vorpal longsword. It just leads to weird questions like "What makes gold such a powerful metal to craft he most dangerous of artifacts?!" And if your world is rich in items, then you're going to have spellcasters opening up millions of gold mines to craft magic items. In very short time, all the gold in your world would've been depleted within the first century of the beginning of magic item crafting in your world. There'd be wars fighting over the rare gold, and then gold would eventually be just too rare to even use as currency for mundane things.
Yeah over all the whole "gold spent" "material costs" and even "wealth by level" is a bit misleading -- so long as they are *generally* in the range of "wealth by level" with just their adventuring gear I don't care about too much else. Personally I'm not so fond of the craft feats -- I think they generally open up more problems than they are worth so I will allow anyone to craft what they want (or fits) to a certain extent with the players realizing that it's full price from wealth by level so long as the item doesn't come from a specific class features.
Four palaces, a shipping company, and a bunch of titles? Sure fine so long as it doesn't directly impact you do your adventuring I'm not so worried about such "wealth" -- it's fluff -- which is great for the game, but doesn't matter so much for mechanics.
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Thanks for the posts all. A bit more background:
On Monday we're starting Serpent's Skull and I get the impression from the Player's Guide that the game might somewhat limit our trips to town to exchange all our loot for new shineys. So I was thinking, well, maybe my Magus can pick up Craft Magic Arms and Armor. I had already decided to put a few ranks in Craft (Weapons) for character reasons and this sort of dovetailed in nicely.
But then it struck me that if I need to get into a town to exchange the swords and whatnots for gold to craft, then its a bit of a moot point.
It sounds like most people think that a magic weapon could be considered raw materials for the purposes of enhancing another weapon, assuming the other conditions of crafting are met (heat source, appropriate tools, etc). How much of their value would count? Half of retail, so basically the crafting cost? Only a quarter to represent some difficulty in the process?
Thanks for the posts all. A bit more background:
On Monday we're starting Serpent's Skull and I get the impression from the Player's Guide that the game might somewhat limit our trips to town to exchange all our loot for new shineys. So I was thinking, well, maybe my Magus can pick up Craft Magic Arms and Armor. I had already decided to put a few ranks in Craft (Weapons) for character reasons and this sort of dovetailed in nicely.
But then it struck me that if I need to get into a town to exchange the swords and whatnots for gold to craft, then its a bit of a moot point.
It sounds like most people think that a magic weapon could be considered raw materials for the purposes of enhancing another weapon, assuming the other conditions of crafting are met (heat source, appropriate tools, etc). How much of their value would count? Half of retail, so basically the crafting cost? Only a quarter to represent some difficulty in the process?
The weapon itself is not included in the price. Sorry about the confusion. If you have a masterwork sword then it cost 1000 to enhance the sword. My point was that you at least need a sword to enhance, and to have the other materials(which are unnamed by the rules) to complete the process.
Having a sword does not get you a discount. Example a magic sword cost 2000+base weapon price + cost to make it masterwork(usually 300).
If you do it yourself the price is 1000+base weapon price+cost to make it masterwork.
If the player picked up the crafting feat before he left town I might allow say he actually purchased certain unnamed material before he left town. This breaks immersion for many people so it really depends on the group.
Right but what about turning a +1 weapon into a +2 weapon using other magical weapons as materials?
You just need 3000gp worth of material to upgrade. The weapon is not party of magical upgrading material though. It is just the object being upgraded. The actual weapon, and the upgrading material are two different things. That is why I had my price breakdown in the above post. Most DM's gloss over the materials because it is really just fluff to justify gold going away and a weapon gaining magical properties.
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Again. I'm talking about other magical weapons. Let me try again.
I have a +1 short sword. I would like it to be a +2 shortsword. I don't have the necessary amount (3000) of gold in my possession to upgrade it. But I do have a +1 greatsword, a +1 hand axe, and two +1 shields. That's more than 3000 gp in stuff. If I have crafting tools and a heat source can I upgrade my short sword?
Again. I'm talking about other magical weapons. Let me try again.
I have a +1 short sword. I would like it to be a +2 shortsword. I don't have the necessary amount (3000) of gold in my possession to upgrade it. But I do have a +1 greatsword, a +1 hand axe, and two +1 shields. That's more than 3000 gp in stuff. If I have crafting tools and a heat source can I upgrade my short sword?
No. The expenditure of gold represents you buying the material you would have needed. By the rules you can't substitute magic items for gold. There is a class called the Artificer that breaks item's down so their enhancements can be substituted for gold. It is in a book called Tome of Secrets(3rd party book). I combined that feature with the Eberron Artificer.
Again. I'm talking about other magical weapons. Let me try again.
I have a +1 short sword. I would like it to be a +2 shortsword. I don't have the necessary amount (3000) of gold in my possession to upgrade it. But I do have a +1 greatsword, a +1 hand axe, and two +1 shields. That's more than 3000 gp in stuff. If I have crafting tools and a heat source can I upgrade my short sword?
I personally house-ruled for it. That way (cost vs worth), but went with the similar to similar requirement: weapons to weapons, armors to armors, etc. I allow transfer of other abilities as similar (not exactly the same) ex.: Bane; Human to Bane; Giant with access to the blood of both types that had fought each other (fun fluff).
Again. I'm talking about other magical weapons. Let me try again.
I have a +1 short sword. I would like it to be a +2 shortsword. I don't have the necessary amount (3000) of gold in my possession to upgrade it. But I do have a +1 greatsword, a +1 hand axe, and two +1 shields. That's more than 3000 gp in stuff. If I have crafting tools and a heat source can I upgrade my short sword?
I think it would still be highly dependent upon conditions and location. "Crafting tools and a heat source" implies an anvil, heavy hammers, and a rather large forge, none of which are easily portable. You could do it on something like a ship that was properly equipped, though it would be tough; middle of the jungle would be a lot tougher. As a GM, I'd argue that the crafting rolls would be substantially higher.
Again. I'm talking about other magical weapons. Let me try again.
I have a +1 short sword. I would like it to be a +2 shortsword. I don't have the necessary amount (3000) of gold in my possession to upgrade it. But I do have a +1 greatsword, a +1 hand axe, and two +1 shields. That's more than 3000 gp in stuff. If I have crafting tools and a heat source can I upgrade my short sword?
Two answers (non-cheeky this time):
1. You shouldn't need to reforge your weapon, only re-enchant it. No need for anvils and the like.
2. That being said, the process by which you upgrade the item is entirely up to the GM. Entirely. It can be as specific or as general as the campaign demands or needs. "Cannibalizing" other magic weapons to upgrade a particular one while "in the field" is as supported by the rules as any other process. You exchange X for Y amount of gold to improve Z. What these steps entail is left up to the the GM and the players.
And gold is magic. That's why the sages say, "Money makes the world go round." ;)
The first thing that every "crafter" learns is how to make an Reverse Philosopher's Stone. Instead of turning lead into gold, it turns gold into lead...and bestows the magic of the gold (you did know gold was magic, yes?) upon the item to be crafted. Hence, a pile of assorted coins becomes an enchanted sword.
At least, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
Rockin'! My explanation next time I have to answer that Q.
In two different groups, one I play in, another that I GM, we have what I think is a rather interesting approach to satisfying the gp requirements for crafting...
In one campaign, my character, an academically trained transmuter is on an expedition within a colonial region with no economy to speak of. In the one I run, the main crafter is a druid. Given these circumstances, the solution we have arrived at is that the material items may be much like high-end material components and focus items for spell.
Naturally you need something of masterwork value to enchant. To use the spell analogy, this would be a focus — it is not consumed in the casting of the spell.
The bulk of the cost then lies in the 'components'.
Examples:
- We used the hides of two different owlbears as the leather needed for a pair of boots of striding and a belt of giant strength.
- Rare wood was harvested from a dangerous locale to craft what would become a magical bow.
- Gems that can only be formed by condensing the essence of a defeated elemental could qualify for the cost of adding energy resistance to an item or a damage property to a weapon.
- The smoke from burning rare herbs or monster bits in a brazier might be what imparts the enchantment to a suit of armor.
- In a time consuming process, inks gained from a deadly kraken are used to draw magical runes over the surface of the focus item.
- Grind/recycle an existing magic item and use the dust as part of the process. (This should probably yield no higher that the amount it would have cost to make that item, not how much it would cost to buy the item brand new.)
- We planned to use the horns of a defeated minotaur champion as the raw material to form the focus item for a horn of good/evil.
Now how did we put nice crunchy numbers on all this 'fluff'? Simple, cross reference the CR of the threat against the gp reward for besting an encounter of the same APL.
If your average owlbear is CR 4, it would be an equal-level encounter for APL 4. Using the Medium XP progression, that made it worth 1,150 gp towards the crafting of those boots. (Mind you, for creatures that actually have treasure, you should subtract its worth from that of the beastie's remains — no double-dipping! ;)
Naturally, in a city or some place with an economy, a solution like this isn't necessary — you can just go and buy whatever 'fluff' items are needed to meet the cost. However, this solution has proved invaluable and well-balanced in the two campaigns with which I am involved. Hope you find it useful.
No. The expenditure of gold represents you buying the material you would have needed. By the rules you can't substitute magic items for gold. There is a class called the Artificer that breaks item's down so their enhancements can be substituted for gold. It is in a book called Tome of Secrets(3rd party book). I combined that feature with the Eberron Artificer.Again. I'm talking about other magical weapons. Let me try again.
I have a +1 short sword. I would like it to be a +2 shortsword. I don't have the necessary amount (3000) of gold in my possession to upgrade it. But I do have a +1 greatsword, a +1 hand axe, and two +1 shields. That's more than 3000 gp in stuff. If I have crafting tools and a heat source can I upgrade my short sword?
Actually, yes, he technically could. And that depends on how he wants to run it. He can have it where they sell the items and use 1/2 their value toward crafting the item.
He can also choose to say, in his world, one can drain magic and power from one item, shape it, and enhance another. This would allow a "trade in", so to speak. By taking the +1 short sword, a 2,310gp item, and using half (or full, if he wishes) value towards enhancing that greatsword.
No. The expenditure of gold represents you buying the material you would have needed. By the rules you can't substitute magic items for gold. There is a class called the Artificer that breaks item's down so their enhancements can be substituted for gold. It is in a book called Tome of Secrets(3rd party book). I combined that feature with the Eberron Artificer.Again. I'm talking about other magical weapons. Let me try again.
I have a +1 short sword. I would like it to be a +2 shortsword. I don't have the necessary amount (3000) of gold in my possession to upgrade it. But I do have a +1 greatsword, a +1 hand axe, and two +1 shields. That's more than 3000 gp in stuff. If I have crafting tools and a heat source can I upgrade my short sword?
Actually, yes, he technically could. And that depends on how he wants to run it. He can have it where they sell the items and use 1/2 their value toward crafting the item.
He can also choose to say, in his world, one can drain magic and power from one item, shape it, and enhance another. This would allow a "trade in", so to speak. By taking the +1 short sword, a 2,310gp item, and using half (or full, if he wishes) value towards enhancing that greatsword.
Anyone can do anything they want in a home game, but this is the rules area, and by the rules he can't use one item to enhance another. The rules require actual gold*. The DM can fluff the lost of gold however he wants, but gp, not gp or equal value magic item is the rule.
I know it is hard to get tone of voice online so know that I am not doing the equivalent of yelling or raising my voice.*I saw your earlier post, and the concept is strange, but it is one of those things each group/DM will have to fluff out for themselves to make it make sense.
In two different groups, one I play in, another that I GM, we have what I think is a rather interesting approach to satisfying the gp requirements for crafting...
Oh!, that is SOOOOO cheating! Working the shopping list into the game? Actually making a side quest integral to the actual adventure? And not only working out the thinking behind what to go fetch, but giving unwary GMs a warning about double dipping? I can see it now: "I forged this blade, Dragonblood from shards of lesser blades that also slew dragons and quenched it in the blood of a just slain dragon!", so much cooler than: 'Yeah, its a +3 dragonbane...' What are you trying to do? make this game 'wonderful' again?
+1
edit: I am so Jones-ing to use this in-game!
I posited this to a couple of players that poked in while I was clearing up last night's wreck. One pointed out that there must be a demand to support any supply. Look for Commodore Vic games, buggy whips or space shuttles. Also, a surplus of anything drives down the price, so stockpiling rabbit's feet will kill the market. On the other hand, the demand for lamp oil nearly drove whales into extinction and it's replacement with kerosine led to oil drilling and Standard Oil.
Again, you open whole new vistas of gaming opportunities! You do realize that po' GMs like me have to come up with those dreaded 'out-of-the-box/book' adventures, don't you? I WAS planning on a canned adventure for next week, but now I have to figure out a "poppin' hunt for ingredients".
Bwang: Hah! Thanks for the thumbs-up, I appreciate it. Have fun with the fowling expedition! :)
I found it worked alright but there were several issues. Allowing players to harvest physical components for magic items from monsters -and- giving the full monster's treasure essentially leads to a double material reward. Luckily, the economy in my game was quite depressed and monetary treasure was a bit below book levels, so it wasn't much of an issue.
Yep, that's why I mentioned the caveat about no double-dipping. :) In the game I play in, it's a non-issue since it's a fledgling colony on the verge of a vast wilderness. The nearest city is back across the ocean we spent 3 months crossing. Most trade is barter or services at this point.
In my game, I make use of an XP/GP calculator I built to easily keep tabs on how much treasure encounters should be worth. Since I try to make sure that I know if the players are specifically looking for crafting materials, that makes it easier to factor such challenges and rewards into the story.
Laithoron I like your "you can quest instead of simply spending the money" thats make the game little bit more alive. :)
I think I will introduce it in my campaign as well :)
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It sounds like most people think that a magic weapon could be considered raw materials for the purposes of enhancing another weapon, assuming the other conditions of crafting are met (heat source, appropriate tools, etc).
A literary example could be Aragorn's sword, Narsil, which was reforged as Andúril. This could be interpreted as mending a shattered item, or creating a totally new one (hence the renaming).
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(Mind you, for creatures that actually have treasure, you should subtract its worth from that of the beastie's remains — no double-dipping! ;)
That shouldn't be a problem for many beast encounters, since they tend to have more treasure than they should, simply as an abstract metagame way to ensure the PCs keep up to the expected WBL gold, to fund the abstract metagame crafting costs...and round and round it goes.
Make the beast's organs the treasure, but only of interest to a few dozen rich crafter people in the area, and it explains why every peasant isn't raiding owlbear nests; they haven't any contacts to offload anything they find, so it's not worth the danger.And for those who do have treasure; I don't know about anyone else's PCs, but mine don't go diving into owlbears' nests weighed down with sacks of coins. If they even take anything other than combat gear with them, it's in a bag of holding or somesuch, so if they die, this will probably get ripped to shreds as a chew toy, and the contents lost.