New to casters and clerics, I've been asked to take over running our group for a bit(to give the main DM a bit of a break and some playing time)...
Now to balance encounters I have to take into account the characters in the group, and the biggest, nastiest tank happens to be the cleric. My main question is, how can a cleric become as tough as he is?
While I don't have the rundown on the character (and we won't be meeting for at least a week), I'd love to know how a cleric can be built tough, or if it's a misinterpretation of rules (the group used to play 3.5 a lot).
The cleric in question is level 11, very likely pure cleric, evil, follows a god of war, wears full plate and uses a 2-handed sword. The campaign has been very light on usable magic items so there are good odds AC coming from magic items/armor is in the 0 to +2 range. The base AC is 27, and buffed the cleric goes up to 30 (I'd casually asked about this before I was DM, and hadn't inquired further). So assuming armor (base 9), dex (1), dodge (1), that's 21 AC, and up to 6 almost constant AC from cleric buffs/abilities, and 3 more AC from a buff that was added just before a recent battle. Any insight as to where and how this extra AC would be coming from?
10 base
9 armor
1 dex
1 dodge
2 magic vestment
shield of faith would add 3.
animated shield?
need the build to be sure, but at level 11 I can hit over a 40 with a cleric.
so now that he is level 12 magic vestment gives +3 all the time (12 hour duration, not hard to mem 2)
Shield of faith gives +4 now, but with a 12 minute duration.
(numbers would be +2 and +3 prior, but that still leaves 4 AC, I'll have to find out if he has items or other abilities).
I'll have to see if I can catch him without buffs, as his AC is much higher than anyone else in the party. I see a definite skew the low magic campaign, anyone with spells has a huge advantage to the mundanes.
There may be a stacking issue there but the +3 i would guess came from Shield of Faith
The armor can be made +2 for 11 hours with magic vestment
If he has barkskin through his domain (plant, decay, growth, or defense)that would add the other 4 as natural
Ring of Force Shield +2 Ac shield bonus... 8500gold
Amulet of Natural Armor +2 AC ............ 8000gold
Magic item..... no you said that not possible...
hummm
only thing i can think of is Dodge Feat for +1 AC
Don't forget to hit him with touch attacks -- clerics are fairly "weak" to arcane magics -- monk's could ruin their day as well and superstitious witch hunting barbarians are good too.
Great advice, will make it easier to figure out balanced encounters to challenge the cleric without steamrolling over the rest of the party. Traps might be harder as it is the slowest party member, but arcane casters are something I've already considered throwing into the mix, especially if I add some way to mass dispell.
I guess that brings the next question - exactly how does concentration work?
I can figure out the defensive casting part, how does the part about concentration DC while being hit during casting work? Does that only apply if you cast full round spells (vs standard action casting duration.. and do full round spells not complete until your next action?) or when enemies hit you with readied actions while you are casting, or does it apply if you've been hit with damage in the round leading up to when you cast?
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I can figure out the defensive casting part, how does the part about concentration DC while being hit during casting work? Does that only apply if you cast full round spells (vs standard action casting duration.. and do full round spells not complete until your next action?) or when enemies hit you with readied actions while you are casting, or does it apply if you've been hit with damage in the round leading up to when you cast?
It happens any time you take damage while casting. So if you don't cast defensively or vs a readied action. I believe there are additional rules to handle taking continuous damage like from Acid Arrow. Anywho, at level 11 there's a pretty solid chance he'll pass any concentration check to cast defensively that he needs to. It's just not terribly hard. That means you need to ready actions to deal with him. Archers are great for this.
I can figure out the defensive casting part, how does the part about concentration DC while being hit during casting work? Does that only apply if you cast full round spells (vs standard action casting duration.. and do full round spells not complete until your next action?) or when enemies hit you with readied actions while you are casting, or does it apply if you've been hit with damage in the round leading up to when you cast?
Please remember that casting a Full-round spell (like the spontaneous casting of a Cure spell) is not the same as casting a 1-round spell. The Full-round spell starts to work in the same round in which it is cast - it merely needs a full-round action instead of a standard action (and so, the Cleric can only cast the spell + 5ft.step or equivalent action); the 1-round spell is completed on the following round in which the Cleric started to cast it, so any damage or distraction in the meanwhile forces a Concentration check.
Other than that, it is the first option you mentioned; the caster needs to make a Concentration check only if he is damaged or hindered (for example via vigorous motion or Grappling) while still casting a spell. As YuenglingDragon mentioned, this is usually due to continuous damage (Acid Arrow as an example) - which has a slightly lower DC that a direct damage in the round, '10+ 1/2 damage taken+ spell level' instead of '10+ damage taken+ spell level' - , Attacks of Opportunity, Readied Actions, Defensive Casting, Immediate Actions of the enemies, or damage taken by regular attacks or spells during a longer than a Full-round casting time spell (1-round or more... some spells have a casting time of 10 minutes or more, and so can be easily interrupted if the caster is left without defense!)
For a rather extreme example, if a Cleric moves around an enemy with a Move Action provoking an Attack of Opportunity and is damaged, he can still cast a Standard Action right on his face without having to make a Concentration check - this because the damage was taken before starting to cast the spell. Of course, if the enemy has the Combat Reflexes feat (and another AoO at disposal), the casting of the spell would provoke again, and in that case the Cleric would have to make the Concentration check if damaged by the attack (or make a Defensive Casting to avoid the second AoO completely).
On the other hand, if the Cleric casts a spontaneous Cure Light Wounds spell (a Full-round action) at Initiative count 10 in order to 'hold the charge' and move later to heal a nearby ally, and then is hit by a charging enemy during Initiative count 9, no check is needed because the spell has already been cast and completed - the spell is already 'hold in charge' and can be used on his following round without any Concentration check.
Please remember that casting a Full-round spell (like the spontaneous casting of a Cure spell) ...
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On the other hand, if the Cleric casts a spontaneous Cure Light Wounds spell (a Full-round action)...
Wraith - spontaneous casting cures is not a full-round action, unless you metamagic the spell as well (empowered cure critical wounds in place of blade barrier for instance).
100% agree with the rest of the post - very nice summary.
Lythe: 27/30 AC at 11th isn't that high for a cleric in full plate. The one thing you really need to check is that he has the Heavy Armor Proficiency feat, as cleric's are no longer proficient with heavy armor automatically.
What the cleric is doing with buffs can be easily surpassed by a fighter without them, so it's not that big a deal.
You know this is a big point to look at really -- and thank you LazarX for mentioning it, but I want to stress parts of your statement that I feel are important:
"What the cleric is doing with buffs can be easily surpassed by a fighter without them, so it's not that big a deal."
This is absolutely true -- I'm not going to argue against it (to do so would be fairly stupid) however a fighter with a few buffs (generally not as many as the cleric is going to need) will in return surpass what the cleric is doing in the fighter's forte (fighting -- obviously a fighter isn't going to out cast a cleric even when buffed).
The cleric will need to spend significant time and resources having all those buffs going, and won't be able to keep it up as long as the fighter probably can either -- and include that each buff he casts on himself for a battle is one less spell he has to do anything else that day on the balancing board -- and the fact that building a "hardcore" fighter isn't easy for everyone and you can easily have a situation where a player could innocently outstrip the others in his group without trying to be a jerk/powergamer/munchkin/whatever.
Just points to remember is all -- we've had a lot of threads about "over powered" characters recently and it's good to remember that many times these are fairly innocent on the player's behalf.
Lythe: 27/30 AC at 11th isn't that high for a cleric in full plate. The one thing you really need to check is that he has the Heavy Armor Proficiency feat, as cleric's are no longer proficient with heavy armor automatically.
Compared to the rest of the party it is very high, and anything I set up to hit him reliably will hit with everything on the rest of the party. 30 AC on the cleric fully buffed, maybe 32 now when he's level 12, is a big difference from the inquisitor at 21, hill giant at 21ish, and eidolon at not much higher. If the enemies can't hit him reliably they die extremely fast against this party and it's not even a challenge.
Though for the next few encounters I have (rise of the rune lords)
What the cleric is doing with buffs can be easily surpassed by a fighter without them, so it's not that big a deal.
Low magic campaign, the fighter could easily do this if he had access to the magic shoppe, but from what I've seen so far that is not the case (I did join the group fairly recently).
What the cleric is doing with buffs can be easily surpassed by a fighter without them, so it's not that big a deal.
In terms of hitting and damaging the target, absolutely, no question.
But a Cleric with Heavy Armor Prof. should be about equal with a fighter in AC. The Fighter has more feats but only a few feats increase AC, so the Cleric can still keep up. The Fighter also has no other abilities that increase his AC. He can increase his max dex to AC, but he'll probably need magic items to fill that out. You have to already have a whole lot of magic before the Cleric can't just spend the gold the Fighter spends on Belts of Dex on some other AC item. Even without Heavy Armor Prof. an unbuffed Cleric is only three AC behind and 1000 gp ahead of the Fighter.That said, there are many ways around a high AC, and most bosses hit any AC on a 2, so AC is only useful against mooks
Wraith - spontaneous casting cures is not a full-round action, unless you metamagic the spell as well (empowered cure critical wounds in place of blade barrier for instance).
Whoops, my mistake; you are correct, casting a spontaneous Cure spell is not usually a Full-round spell - basically, the Cleric works like a Sorcerer if 'converting on the fly' a prepared spell into a Cure spell (this is the reason of the increased casting time if casting a metamagic version of the spontaneous Cure spell).
The easiest fix i can think of would be to bring the rest of the party's AC up with a few choice items preferably ones that won't stack with the cleric's buffs.
Other than that Swarms ignore AC and damage everyone equally.
Touch attacks as stated above either by undead, (will die quick vs a cleric but should cause some harm first), or enemy casters (i think a level 4 kobold adept is only CR2 and can cast a scorching ray at about +5-6 ranged touch).
Creatures with a large number of high accuracy but low damage attacks could also be used (can't think of an example but you can always make one :)).
Something like a pyrohydra with its multiple breath weapon attacks will hit him in his bad save.
Finally there is always hitting them at night when he can't put his armor on or spend time buffing without missing the fight.
Creatures with a large number of high accuracy but low damage attacks could also be used (can't think of an example but you can always make one :)).
Fifth level dwarven phalanx fighters with: Combat expertise, power attack, gang up, Precise Strike, Outflank, Shield Wall
All using either heavy or tower shields, and in full plate with a level 5 bard, level 5 witch, and level 5 wizard for support.
That'll worry just about any party. You can have 9 of the fighters and the 3 casters as a CR 10 encounter too. The wizard will start with haste, the bard will go with bardic music, and the witch will make the enemies suffer with whatever she has. Have the witch and wizard take improved familiars to give disposable item support too (like a few partial charged wands of haste, or whatever).
Randomly, I'd throw a couple of night ambushes at the party. The cleric can't sleep in that full plate armor without getting fatigued, and somehow I doubt he spent a feat on Endurance.
Alternatively, an advanced elder black pudding does wonderfully horrible things to edged-weapons wielders in heavy armor. : )
Creatures with a large number of high accuracy but low damage attacks could also be used (can't think of an example but you can always make one :)).Fifth level dwarven phalanx fighters with: Combat expertise, power attack, gang up, Precise Strike, Outflank, Shield Wall
All using either heavy or tower shields, and in full plate with a level 5 bard, level 5 witch, and level 5 wizard for support.
That'll worry just about any party. You can have 9 of the fighters and the 3 casters as a CR 10 encounter too. The wizard will start with haste, the bard will go with bardic music, and the witch will make the enemies suffer with whatever she has. Have the witch and wizard take improved familiars to give disposable item support too (like a few partial charged wands of haste, or whatever).
That many low level mooks? I hope the party's Wizard didn't prep Cloudkill.
That many low level mooks? I hope the party's Wizard didn't prep Cloudkill.
Unlikely to get everyone, and if he did no big deal -- after all it's a low level encounter for this party, and while it isn't his highest level spell it is his second highest and another resource used up. Also the burst radius on cloudkill makes it very awkward to use if everyone is in a close melee. While the other PCs will survive a round in it the Con damage probably won't be appreciated. With a battle group of 12 people you can easily split it into three "parties" of 4 each that attack from different areas -- the team work feats work well with 3 fighters (and don't forget that since they are dwarves those fortitude saves are going to be great) and a single caster with each such group means you are unlikely to knock everyone down at once.
Now again if you play the encounter stupid (and not accusing just pointing out it would be stupid) and have the whole group march up in one unit all at the same time in the middle of the day with no cover with trumpets announcing their arrival then yeah, duh Cloudkill shake your head and move on.
But if the PCs wouldn't act that way I see no reason for the NPCs to do so either.