I realize that races out of the Bestiary are not legal, but it seems all of the races in the new bestiary 2 seem to be very balanced.
So, will the races in the Bestiary 2 become legal for play in Pathfinder Society?
Thanks in advance for the reply.
BS
We currently have no plans to open up races from products other than the Core Rulebook.
Curse your rules and restrictions you tyrant of gaming! I gnash my size and color changing teeth at you from the maelstrom because now I can't play a fetchling in PFS. Bah!
;)
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We currently have no plans to open up races from products other than the Core Rulebook.
Mark
It would be a great reward for the Gen Con special
"You have recruited a new society member"
Your next character can be one of the new races.
Limit one special race character per player
Or you could grant a special race access cert to the 32-64 ranked items in the RPG Superstar competition.
Sort of your item was good just not Top 32 worthy
Or grant the cert to 3-5 star GMs and Organizers
Of course since I proposed these great ideas you could reward me with a special cert as well
Just saying ;-)
Rich
Retired PFS in NYC organizer
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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There are other open play systems that are very much about character abilities instead, and race is a big part of that. I often wondered why cities were okay with the party that wandered in comprised of a minotaur, revenant, kenku, orc, bladeling and shapeshifter. I'd think the first thing that would happen is that they would be attacked outright by the guard/clergy/citizenry of that city. Of course, for "game reasons" that stuff was overlooked, as they were there to save the day.
PFS, on the other hand, is very centered on the story that is Golarion. I like that. Paizo, you've done an awesome job making a game world where being human/demihuman matters. Keep it up.
Edit: pulled the quote. Hit "reply" instead of "add new post." Sorry...
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There are other open play systems that are very much about character abilities instead, and race is a big part of that. I often wondered why cities were okay with the party that wandered in comprised of a minotaur, revenant, kenku, orc, bladeling and shapeshifter. I'd think the first thing that would happen is that they would be attacked outright by the guard/clergy/citizenry of that city. Of course, for "game reasons" that stuff was overlooked, as they were there to save the day.
PFS, on the other hand, is very centered on the story that is Golarion. I like that. Paizo, you've done an awesome job making a game world where being human/demihuman matters. Keep it up.
All true. 100% agree and support.
There are other open play systems that are very much about character abilities instead, and race is a big part of that. I often wondered why cities were okay with the party that wandered in comprised of a minotaur, revenant, kenku, orc, bladeling and shapeshifter. I'd think the first thing that would happen is that they would be attacked outright by the guard/clergy/citizenry of that city. Of course, for "game reasons" that stuff was overlooked, as they were there to save the day.
You just described the fun part of role playing one of those races. Hated and feared, yet a force for good.
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There are other open play systems that are very much about character abilities instead, and race is a big part of that. I often wondered why cities were okay with the party that wandered in comprised of a minotaur, revenant, kenku, orc, bladeling and shapeshifter. I'd think the first thing that would happen is that they would be attacked outright by the guard/clergy/citizenry of that city. Of course, for "game reasons" that stuff was overlooked, as they were there to save the day.
Races? That's the least of the turn-a-blind-eye syndrome that's just as prevalent in PFS as in all organized play campaigns. In PFS, you could entirely legally have guard/clergy/citizenry facing a PC party like the following:
1) A party of druids, summoners, and cavaliers with a variety of large-sized monsters (some of them incredibly dangerous-looking) surrounding them.
2) A party full of followers of Asmodeus, each of them prominently bearing holy symbols of Asmodeus and preaching Asmodeus' will.
3) A party full of lithe, cloaked, assassin-looking characters (whether rogues, monks, inquisitors, etc.) who resemble nothing more than a troupe of hired killers.
4) A party containing blatantly rude or offensive characters. (I've played and played with characters described as "hideously ugly", "incredibly ill-mannered", "having anger management issues," etc., and found these faults to be roleplayed very well.)
In any of these situations, the *players* might all be having a grand old time, enjoying the game and each other's company. But I'm puzzled at why anyone wouldn't attack/avoid/lock up such characters, other than to handwave the fiction of "oh, they're Pathfinders."
It seems like, say, a well-behaved kenku, particularly one plainly outfitted as a paladin of Iomedae, might be the least questionable (and most approachable) member of an adventuring party.
It's just the in-game fiction we share for the purposes of an organized play campaign, and it seems arbitrary to allow PCs that are evangelizing priests of evil gods, cackling witches, roc-riding druids, sociopathic barbarians, and summoners with flying chicken-monsters, but disallow other balanced near-human races. But that's just the line they've decided to draw.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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1) A party of druids, summoners, and cavaliers with a variety of large-sized monsters (some of them incredibly dangerous-looking) surrounding them.
Heh. This one's funny, and a good point. The cavalier, in PFS, is limited to "normal" animals that can pass as a mount, so doesn't count. The druid and summoner you are correct about, however, so I'll grant you that.
2) A party full of followers of Asmodeus, each of them prominently bearing holy symbols of Asmodeus and preaching Asmodeus' will.
This one you don't score. Cheliax is an accepted nation of the Inner Sea, and Asmodeus is known to be its deity. He is also known to be a force for law, having taken an anarchic Cheliax by the throat and restored safety to its citizens. They may be worshiping an evil deity, but he keeps them safe so they accept it. The other nations *have* to accept it, as Cheliax is still one of the most powerful countries on the continent.
And, by the way, Cheliax is thoroughly human; moreover, very discriminatory toward other races. And it is a huge part of that story I was talking about that is Golarion.
3) A party full of lithe, cloaked, assassin-looking characters (whether rogues, monks, inquisitors, etc.) who resemble nothing more than a troupe of hired killers.
4) A party containing blatantly rude or offensive characters. (I've played and played with characters described as "hideously ugly", "incredibly ill-mannered", "having anger management issues," etc., and found these faults to be roleplayed very well.)
And with these, when they get out of line, I always have the authorities of the land step up and address the characters: "Keep that up and we'll be having a conversation." That does not constitute outright attack. Why? because while they look sketchy and might be very rude, they haven't broken the laws of the land. Also, they aren't of a race that is *expected* to murder, rape and pillage human lands. And every time I have that conversation, I make the players very aware of just how powerful the local authorities are; after all, they hold sway over cities and nations. Somewhere there are people who can deal with the kind of offenses such as a group of recalcitrant PCs are liable to mete out.
In any of these situations, the *players* might all be having a grand old time, enjoying the game and each other's company. But I'm puzzled at why anyone wouldn't attack/avoid/lock up such characters, other than to handwave the fiction of "oh, they're Pathfinders."
See above. I never hand-wave it, and don't think it should be.
It seems like, say, a well-behaved kenku, particularly one plainly outfitted as a paladin of Iomedae, might be the least questionable (and most approachable) member of an adventuring party.
And I would love to see that. I never have. Most players who play monsters portray them as monsters. They pick the races due to optimization, and if there is any roleplaying, it is to make them act like the creatures they are. Otherwise, they are just humans with monster appearances. It's an unnecessary fiction that needs to be inflicted on what Paizo has done with Golarion. Let it be restricted to home games, where a GM can make that fiction a part of his story.
Accept the challenge of playing within the limits Paizo has set for PFS. Roleplay that. It's rewarding.
However:
It might not be a bad idea for playing a "non-standard" race as some sort of PFS GM or game reward.
If this were very rare, so that the kenku paladin that WelbyBumpus described was actually a possibility, I would enjoy seeing it. But if it's merely open to everyone, I think it would detract from the experience, instead. If it's actually a hard-won reward that only happens a few times per year, then bring it on.
Having said that, I still fully support the "No" position that Paizo has taken.
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Also, they aren't of a race that is *expected* to murder, rape and pillage human lands.
IMO, this is perhaps your strongest point, and a really good argument against most of the "monster" races like minotaurs, orcs, gnolls, etc. Less strong against other races (like kenku and shifters), or at least as applicable to those races as to half-orcs perhaps, but also valid.
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You just described the fun part of role playing one of those races. Hated and feared, yet a force for good.There are other open play systems that are very much about character abilities instead, and race is a big part of that. I often wondered why cities were okay with the party that wandered in comprised of a minotaur, revenant, kenku, orc, bladeling and shapeshifter. I'd think the first thing that would happen is that they would be attacked outright by the guard/clergy/citizenry of that city. Of course, for "game reasons" that stuff was overlooked, as they were there to save the day.
PFS isn't about being a force for good. It's about being raiding temples for lost artifacts, retrieving lost manuscripts, placating the wealthy so the society can get access to some treasure horde, etc. Few PFS teams would be considered a force for good under any light.
So all that's left is hated and feared.
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It seems like, say, a well-behaved kenku, particularly one plainly outfitted as a paladin of Iomedae, might be the least questionable (and most approachable) member of an adventuring party.
I don't think goblins, gnolls, orcs and other 'known' hostile races would work well as PCs but I agree that some of the less hostile or easier to pass for human races would be interesting and a good reward. It brings up a lot of issues though. You suggest a 'well behaved' tengu but what does a GM do with the poorly behaved ones?
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It seems like, say, a well-behaved kenku, particularly one plainly outfitted as a paladin of Iomedae, might be the least questionable (and most approachable) member of an adventuring party.I don't think goblins, gnolls, orcs and other 'known' hostile races would work well as PCs but I agree that some of the less hostile or easier to pass for human races would be interesting and a good reward. It brings up a lot of issues though. You suggest a 'well behaved' tengu but what does a GM do with the poorly behaved ones?
What does a GM do with poorly behaved humans?
If we include/exclude PC races in a campaign based solely on behaviour (potential for evil?), then humans have to go!
Let's look at the facts: every nefariously evil spellcaster, cult followers, hired thugs, slavers etc Pathfinders find themselves up against, they're predominantly human!
Don't want no nasssty humans in my adventuring group :-(
Cheers,
DarkWhite
Director of Brand Strategy
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While there are many elements that go into the decision not to make these races open in our OP environment, including in-world aspects of the Pathfinder Society's membership makeup and the average inhabitant's perception of "monsters" but the main reason for me is that once the door is opened on something like this, it completely changes the feel of the campaign, and why not play some crazy, off-the-wall monster race? I'd wager it wouldn't take too long before a sizable portion of players had something extraordinary simply because they could. And once it's done, there's no putting the lid back on the jar.
Were we to open any non-core races up for PFS play, they would almost certainly be limited rewards for attendants at specific events, or who had displayed exceptional service to Pathfinder Society Organized Play as a real-world entity.
. I often wondered why cities were okay with the party that wandered in comprised of a minotaur, revenant, kenku, orc, bladeling and shapeshifter. I'd think the first thing that would happen is that they would be attacked outright by the guard/clergy/citizenry of that city.
Let's imagine you're a guard in that city and a Minotaur, revenant, kenku, Orc, bladeling and shapeshifter all armed to the teeth just walk right in without giving you a second glance. What are you gonna do, challenge them all to a fight? Or just let them go and hope they don't cause any trouble?
Let's imagine you're the guard captain with maybe a dozen guards, all local men, who you can call on quickly. How good do you think those guards will be in melée against such an unknown quantity? Some of those guards may even be your friends, would you risk their lives? Do you really need to fight these guys? Sure, you'll advise the local magistrates or elders so they're aware of the situation, but you're not going to start a fight if you don't know you can win it.
And let's imagine you're the local mayor and a Minotaur, revenant, kenku, Orc, bladeling and shapeshifter all armed to the teeth just walk right in. Do you know how tough they are? What resources do you have at your disposal? What resources can you afford to lose and what would you hope to gain? I think the questions the mayor will be asking are: how long are they staying, will they cause any problems and can I make use of them in some way as they've pretty much got to be adventurers... Adventurers also tend to be rich, so maybe this will be good for the local economy.
Playing LFR we often have an Orc in the party and if the rest of us are human he gets insulted all the time. But if the rest of us are playing more bizarre races, villagers tend not to say anything... It's easy to pick on loners and weaklings, but few people pick on big tough groups of creatures unless their lives are threatened or they're not actually doing the fighting themselves.
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While there are many elements that go into the decision not to make these races open in our OP environment, including in-world aspects of the Pathfinder Society's membership makeup and the average inhabitant's perception of "monsters" but the main reason for me is that once the door is opened on something like this, it completely changes the feel of the campaign, and why not play some crazy, off-the-wall monster race? I'd wager it wouldn't take too long before a sizable portion of players had something extraordinary simply because they could. And once it's done, there's no putting the lid back on the jar.
Were we to open any non-core races up for PFS play, they would almost certainly be limited rewards for attendants at specific events, or who had displayed exceptional service to Pathfinder Society Organized Play as a real-world entity.
Get out of my head Mark! I was going to say tht this could be a GM reward. :-)
Something like 3-star GM's get mailed a special chronicle for a single character of race X or Y. 4-star GM's get another chronicle for race Z. 5-star GM's get punched in the groin.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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. I often wondered why cities were okay with the party that wandered in comprised of a minotaur, revenant, kenku, orc, bladeling and shapeshifter. I'd think the first thing that would happen is that they would be attacked outright by the guard/clergy/citizenry of that city.Let's imagine you're a guard in that city and a Minotaur, revenant, kenku, Orc, bladeling and shapeshifter all armed to the teeth just walk right in without giving you a second glance. What are you gonna do, challenge them all to a fight? Or just let them go and hope they don't cause any trouble?
Let's imagine you're the guard captain with maybe a dozen guards, all local men, who you can call on quickly. How good do you think those guards will be in melée against such an unknown quantity? Some of those guards may even be your friends, would you risk their lives? Do you really need to fight these guys? Sure, you'll advise the local magistrates or elders so they're aware of the situation, but you're not going to start a fight if you don't know you can win it.
And let's imagine you're the local mayor and a Minotaur, revenant, kenku, Orc, bladeling and shapeshifter all armed to the teeth just walk right in. Do you know how tough they are? What resources do you have at your disposal? What resources can you afford to lose and what would you hope to gain? I think the questions the mayor will be asking are: how long are they staying, will they cause any problems and can I make use of them in some way as they've pretty much got to be adventurers... Adventurers also tend to be rich, so maybe this will be good for the local economy.
Playing LFR we often have an Orc in the party and if the rest of us are human he gets insulted all the time. But if the rest of us are playing more bizarre races, villagers tend not to say anything... It's easy to pick on loners and weaklings, but few people pick on big tough groups of creatures unless their lives are threatened or they're not actually doing the fighting...
Thanks for proving my point. Leave this stuff in the home games. Or in LFR.
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Let's imagine you're the guard captain with maybe a dozen guards, all local men, who you can call on quickly. How good do you think those guards will be in melée against such an unknown quantity? Some of those guards may even be your friends, would you risk their lives? Do you really need to fight these guys? Sure, you'll advise the local magistrates or elders so they're aware of the situation, but you're not going to start a fight if you don't know you can win it.
No guard capatain that actually thought this way would remain guard captain long. His job is to protect the populace. He's going to let that group just walk in? Where his family lives? Where they people that pay him to not let that kind of creature in town live?
Orc horde coming!
Let me just hold the door for you.
One guard, or several, may not be up to a PC or group of them. They do have one major advantage. Numbers. Numbers always win in the end.
I don't let people play these races in home games. I'd rather not see it in PFS. There's more than enough available diversity in what is currently legal. You don't need a super-dooper-ultra-rare race to do it.
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Let's imagine you're the guard captain with maybe a dozen guards, all local men, who you can call on quickly. How good do you think those guards will be in melée against such an unknown quantity? Some of those guards may even be your friends, would you risk their lives? Do you really need to fight these guys? Sure, you'll advise the local magistrates or elders so they're aware of the situation, but you're not going to start a fight if you don't know you can win it.No guard capatain that actually thought this way would remain guard captain long. His job is to protect the populace. He's going to let that group just walk in? Where his family lives? Where they people that pay him to not let that kind of creature in town live?
Orc horde coming!
Let me just hold the door for you.
One guard, or several, may not be up to a PC or group of them. They do have one major advantage. Numbers. Numbers always win in the end.
I don't let people play these races in home games. I'd rather not see it in PFS. There's more than enough available diversity in what is currently legal. You don't need a super-dooper-ultra-rare race to do it.
And most towns that we have run into are walled as well. Even a lone guard is there so that when he spots the party coming he can close & bar the town gates and call out the militia.
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5-star GM's get punched in the groin.
hmmmm Maybe I don't want to be a 5-star GM...;)
GMing with any of Kyle's PCs at the table pretty much amounts to the same thing.
How about playing at one of his tables?
I would love the opportunity. Even if it meant the death of my character that I love and adore, raised from 1st level by my own hands. And if I ever get in the area, I will. But I have never been to that part of the country and I don't foresee it happening soon. :-( It saddens me that I may never get the chance to game with some of the great GMs and players on these boards.
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I would love the opportunity. Even if it meant the death of my character that I love and adore, raised from 1st level by my own hands. And if I ever get in the area, I will. But I have never been to that part of the country and I don't foresee it happening soon. :-( It saddens me that I may never get the chance to game with some of the great GMs and players on these boards.5-star GM's get punched in the groin.
hmmmm Maybe I don't want to be a 5-star GM...;)
GMing with any of Kyle's PCs at the table pretty much amounts to the same thing.
How about playing at one of his tables?
you're in SD?? short drive to Iowa in Feb and you'll see a DougDoug, BobBob and Kyle (he's not as special so only gets one name)
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you're in SD?? short drive to Iowa in Feb and you'll see a DougDoug, BobBob and Kyle (he's not as special so only gets one name)
AND I'll be running mid-level stuff all weekend. Plenty of opportunity to slaughter...err, entertain your character all weekend long!
Only one name? Doesn't that make me more special? Or is that specialer? More specialerest? ;-)
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you're in SD?? short drive to Iowa in Feb and you'll see a DougDoug, BobBob and Kyle (he's not as special so only gets one name)AND I'll be running mid-level stuff all weekend. Plenty of opportunity to slaughter...err, entertain your character all weekend long!
Only one name? Doesn't that make me more special? Or is that specialer? More specialerest? ;-)
Really Kyle .. we're talking about my little world :P
Oh and sign up on warhorn :P
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Kyle, you are the most specialist **patting your head**. Isn't that right everyone ;-)hrmm ... if we have to agree to keep him from banging his head on the floor again sure... but really no :D
Thanks Bobbob!
Thea, you weren't planning to play at any of my tables were you? They're now invite only, and you aren't on the list! :P
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Kyle, you are the most specialist **patting your head**. Isn't that right everyone ;-)hrmm ... if we have to agree to keep him from banging his head on the floor again sure... but really no :DThanks Bobbob!
Thea, you weren't planning to play at any of my tables were you? They're now invite only, and you aren't on the list! :P
Pfft I'm taking all the people that are scared of you .. they like their characters and want to keep them for another adventure
*cause apparently people think I'm like nice and junk.. not sure where they got that idea*
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Which event is that and where in Iowa? I may have a group of 3 to 6 players and GMs that would come down for the event.
you're in SD?? short drive to Iowa in Feb and you'll see a DougDoug, BobBob and Kyle (he's not as special so only gets one name)
Iowa city IA, Gamicon -- Feb 10-12 .. I have a thread with the mods and websites -- both for registration and warhorn sign ups shortly below this one (at the time of this posting.)
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Were we to open any non-core races up for PFS play, they would almost certainly be limited rewards for attendants at specific events, or who had displayed exceptional service to Pathfinder Society Organized Play as a real-world entity.
May I respectfully request that you either open up completely, or never allow any. To me, the "limited rewards" aspect simply promotes the elitism and snobbery that drove me away from Living Greyhawk.
If I ever sit down and find that a player is playing a non-core race that regular players are not allowed to use, I'll simply vacate the table, and never play PFS again.
(No, not a threat, it's just that that will be the point where I say the snobs have taken over, and it's time for me to leave.)
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Were we to open any non-core races up for PFS play, they would almost certainly be limited rewards for attendants at specific events, or who had displayed exceptional service to Pathfinder Society Organized Play as a real-world entity.May I respectfully request that you either open up completely, or never allow any. To me, the "limited rewards" aspect simply promotes the elitism and snobbery that drove me away from Living Greyhawk.
If I ever sit down and find that a player is playing a non-core race that regular players are not allowed to use, I'll simply vacate the table, and never play PFS again.
(No, not a threat, it's just that that will be the point where I say the snobs have taken over, and it's time for me to leave.)
And if you find out that the person playing the non-core race donated 400 hours of their life running tables for others and got that race as a reward?
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Were we to open any non-core races up for PFS play, they would almost certainly be limited rewards for attendants at specific events, or who had displayed exceptional service to Pathfinder Society Organized Play as a real-world entity.May I respectfully request that you either open up completely, or never allow any. To me, the "limited rewards" aspect simply promotes the elitism and snobbery that drove me away from Living Greyhawk.
If I ever sit down and find that a player is playing a non-core race that regular players are not allowed to use, I'll simply vacate the table, and never play PFS again.
(No, not a threat, it's just that that will be the point where I say the snobs have taken over, and it's time for me to leave.)
How is a reward for GMing a lot of games being a Snob?...
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And if you find out that the person playing the non-core race donated 400 hours of their life running tables for others and got that race as a reward?Were we to open any non-core races up for PFS play, they would almost certainly be limited rewards for attendants at specific events, or who had displayed exceptional service to Pathfinder Society Organized Play as a real-world entity.May I respectfully request that you either open up completely, or never allow any. To me, the "limited rewards" aspect simply promotes the elitism and snobbery that drove me away from Living Greyhawk.
If I ever sit down and find that a player is playing a non-core race that regular players are not allowed to use, I'll simply vacate the table, and never play PFS again.
(No, not a threat, it's just that that will be the point where I say the snobs have taken over, and it's time for me to leave.)
The snippy answer is: If you are being paid through rewards, it's not a donation.
The more complex answer is that people DM because they enjoy doing so. There are a great many judges who get just as much, if not more enjoyment from DMing than they ever would through playing. In which case, such a reward is simply rewarding them for doing something that they gain the most enjoyment from in the first place.
Regardless of why a person has gained a boon not available to other players, the reality is that once such boons start to be granted, it is inevitable that more will come, and that this will at some point be used to separate "regular players" from "elite players". My personal barometer of such, and the line that I personally will draw is as stated. For others it may be something else.
(Just as for some players, any replay at all is reason enough for them to quit PFS, while others favor some limited number of replays. We all have our personal preferences, and the point at which we say it's not the system we will want to play anymore.)
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The snippy answer is: If you are being paid through rewards, it's not a donation.
The more complex answer is that people DM because they enjoy doing so. There are a great many judges who get just as much, if not more enjoyment from DMing than they ever would through playing. In which case, such a reward is simply rewarding them for doing something that they gain the most enjoyment from in the first place.
Regardless of why a person has gained a boon not available to other players, the reality is that once such boons start to be granted, it is inevitable that more will come, and that this will at some point be used to separate "regular players" from "elite players". My personal barometer of such, and the line that I personally will draw is as stated. For others it may be something else.
(Just as for some players, any replay at all is reason enough for them to quit PFS, while others favor some limited number of replays. We all have our personal preferences, and the point at which we say it's not the system we will want...
What About the 5 star only Scenarios? no problem with that?
They have stated in the past they will be giving some kind of reward for DMing a lot, they have just not as yet come up with it.
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What About the 5 star only Scenarios? no problem with that?They have stated in the past they will be giving some kind of reward for DMing a lot, they have just not as yet come up with it.
Given the crunch in availability of 1-7 scenarios, spending resources putting together scenarios that will only be usable by a thin slice of the player base seems ill-advised. But unless having played in them confers a dramatic in-game benefit over those who do not live in a community large enough to support 5-star judges, then it would seem to be an apples and oranges type of question.