Why is a bank 'stuffy'?Because a stuffy old bank is just boring, now meeting new people seeing what they have to drop off or take away or who is interesting enough to follow home......
A dungeon is full of interesting things some sentient others not so, but still interesting!
Because a kender's "childlike wonder" is usually informed by the opinions of an adult human player fueled with adult stereotypes and an affected babydoll persona of what a child would act like and find interesting, as opposed to actual memories from childhood of what one found fascinating then or barring that observational data of what children find fascinating now.
A bank? It's a fascinating place. The tellers are these pretty, neatly dressed ladies who fan and count out bills with all the precision of a magician doing a card trick, there are these velvet ropes you can swing on and that make a hell of a clatter if you pull over the stanchion at the end, there are polished marble floors you can skate on, beautiful fascinating brasswork to admire, this enormous vault door with this big tumblers that's usually open to this big room made up of hundreds of little tiny doors each of which has its own keyhole. And that's not even counting the free candies and seasonal holiday decorations, which are always way more elaborate than anything you could hope to have in your living room.
You don't see anything near as interesting in a dungeon.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Interesting,
kryt-rider, kenderkin, and Freehold DM suddenly *prove* Kevin's point about metagaming. Kender will steal from party members, random strangers, open chests etc.
...until they get to meet someone who actually can have them killed. Then suddenly it's off admiring the scenery, or asking questions or completely changing their behaviour for metagame reasons.
Thank you gentlemen, for proving the point.
Even Goth Guru seems to support the 'play kender as annoyances, until you might derail the game, then suddenly switch to serious player mode'.
Remember, the archtypical kender, in his first novel, steals from a friend. He doesn't 'handle' or 'forget where it came from' he steals knowing full well what he did.
I never supported anyone being forced to play an annoyance.
I very much do not support a roleplaying straitjacket.
A dwarf has an appropriately ambiguous behavior description.
When I play a Dwarf, they view Elves as a tool for killing Giants and Orcs. There are other ways around it, like an Orc killing contest from Lord of the Rings.
Interesting,
kryt-rider, kenderkin, and Freehold DM suddenly *prove* Kevin's point about metagaming. Kender will steal from party members, random strangers, open chests etc.
...until they get to meet someone who actually can have them killed. Then suddenly it's off admiring the scenery, or asking questions or completely changing their behaviour for metagame reasons.Thank you gentlemen, for proving the point.
Even Goth Guru seems to support the 'play kender as annoyances, until you might derail the game, then suddenly switch to serious player mode'.
Remember, the archtypical kender, in his first novel, steals from a friend. He doesn't 'handle' or 'forget where it came from' he steals knowing full well what he did.
This may be a problem with the way kender are described- a lack of fear doesn't automatically equate with a death wish, most(I'm willing to say all) kender will act to defend their lives even when their own curiosity has gotten them into a situation. If they were the way you described, the race would have killed themselves a long time ago in a rash of mass-suicides not unlike that godawful movie, The Happening. If threatned with violence or around something that is a genuine threat(not just a dragon, an angry dragon that will certainly try to kill you if you as much as approach it), then they will do their best to leave the scene or even avoid the area unless they're looking to do some adventuring. To go out on a limb, stealing from a friend is one thing, stealing the gold that is just under the lip of an actively erupting volcano is something else.
Honestly as written kender are pretty much on the same level as many not so nice fey, kobolds and other menses to civilization and the common man. Sure they do not murder everyone they meet, but are harmful to Evey single person they meet and every village and town they vist just the same.
They lie as often as they breath and steal anything and everything not nailed down. They are thieves honestly should be treated as such.
As for the bank , yep kender as written would rob it, they have to, they just HAVE to know what is inside.
Actually, the point has been pretty well proven. Every time I or anyone else has suggested something that would attract a kender but is risky, sacrilegious, or borderline suicidal, the pro-kender camp suggests an alternate line of interaction that is not.
Instead of pickpocketing the princess, go talk to the other guests, investigate the punch recipe, and make courtly small talk about pineapples.
Instead of breaking into the safe deposit boxes, watch the customers and follow them home to find out what they retrieved from their box.
No one even touched the wizard lying in state at his funeral. I'm certain the suggestion would be to go talk to the mourners, eat food at the wake, and generally pilot the kender based on metagame knowledge of what is acceptable at human funerals and what will have the kender viewed as a miniature ghoul.
Basically, it seems the way to roleplay a kender is to use metagame knowledge to have them act cute, perky and whimsical at all times while steering them away from anything that could be viewed as antisocial, sacrilegious, or just plain ghoulish.
This may be a problem with the way kender are described- a lack of fear doesn't automatically equate with a death wish, most(I'm willing to say all) kender will act to defend their lives even when their own curiosity has gotten them into a situation. If they were the way you described, the race would have killed themselves a long time ago in a rash of mass-suicides not unlike that godawful movie, The Happening. If threatned with violence or around something that is a genuine threat(not just a dragon, an angry dragon that will certainly try to kill you if you as much as approach it), then they will do their best to leave the scene or even avoid the area unless they're looking to do some adventuring. To go out on a limb, stealing from a friend is one thing, stealing the gold that is just under the lip of an actively erupting volcano is something else.
Nobody said a kender wouldn't defend it's life, but the DL books themselves detail kender walking right up to angry dragons.
They're fearless, and with that seems to come an overconfidence in their abilities and what normal, sane people would call a "death wish".
This isn't being made up by anti-kender people, this is canon kender behavior!
Again, as multiple people have pointed out, the pro-kender faction keeps defining a race that simply is NOT kender as the various rulebooks and novels have defined them.
The title of this topic is,” Help me build a Kender without kender hate! “ The first step is to tear down the previous rulebooks and novels. You might want to use a new name like The Kinder.
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So at what point does the Kender say, "Why is everyone saying the princess is the prettiest one here? She's not. She's got the sparkliest dress, but honestly, she's not even average for all the girls here. The two prettiest ones are that countess over there and the third lady in waiting. Heck, even the baron there is prettier than the princess and is working his sparklies better."
"Hey, now, I just noticed in that portrait, the princess is a brunette, but today she's got blonde highlights. Which is she normally? Let's see if the collars and cuffs match!"
<dives under princess' skirt and rips off her knickers, comes out, waving them to the crowd.>
"Yup, I was right. SHE'S GOT A BROWN BEAVER, EVERYONE!"
Later, to executioner...
"What? What did I do?"
The title of this topic is,” Help me build a Kender without kender hate! “ The first step is to tear down the previous rulebooks and novels. You might want to use a new name like The Kinder.
In other word: Do not play kender. Wise words indeed.
It is not tricky at all. The race write up tells you how the typical kender acts. And that is in such a way they are a menace to everyone.
Sure you may have the odd one here and there does not act like a kender, but from what I have seen they act just like every other kender until a time it might get them killed then act like someone else till the danger has passed.
As a race they should have been wiped out, either by being kender or by anyone living near by.
Here's a question: How does a kender that learns and acts reasonably differ from a halfling?
Here's a question: How does a kender that learns and acts reasonably differ from a halfling?
Immune to fear and can enrage (almost) anything. It's not worth the baggage, play a halfling.
He isn't a kender. By the way its written they way they act is as much a part of being a kender as say an elves resistance to sleep or low light vision.
They choose to make it a part of the races make up, not learned behavior.
This may be a problem with the way kender are described- a lack of fear doesn't automatically equate with a death wish, most(I'm willing to say all) kender will act to defend their lives even when their own curiosity has gotten them into a situation. If they were the way you described, the race would have killed themselves a long time ago in a rash of mass-suicides not unlike that godawful movie, The Happening. If threatned with violence or around something that is a genuine threat(not just a dragon, an angry dragon that will certainly try to kill you if you as much as approach it), then they will do their best to leave the scene or even avoid the area unless they're looking to do some adventuring. To go out on a limb, stealing from a friend is one thing, stealing the gold that is just under the lip of an actively erupting volcano is something else.Nobody said a kender wouldn't defend it's life, but the DL books themselves detail kender walking right up to angry dragons.
They're fearless, and with that seems to come an overconfidence in their abilities and what normal, sane people would call a "death wish".
This isn't being made up by anti-kender people, this is canon kender behavior!
Again, as multiple people have pointed out, the pro-kender faction keeps defining a race that simply is NOT kender as the various rulebooks and novels have defined them.
Actually, the vast majority of situations described by the anti-kender faction do indeed insinutate suicidal behavior. Going up to an angry dragon is one thing. Going up to a dragon that is angry AT YOU is something else, and a crucial distinction that is glossed over by this faction.
+1 on what you said, Joe. Love that trilogy.
You can take bits and pieces of the Kender description and come up with a lot of negative concepts. I just read both the orginal Dragonlance Adventures and the 3.5 version and both entries seem like any other racial entry. As I've stated earlier, I've played with Kender as a DM and as a Player and never had any issues.
On a side note, I don't read RPG inspired books usually, so I never completely read the Dragonlance Novels. I tried and found them cliche and boring, so I can't comment on how that Kender acted. Still, can't base an entire race on how one acted in a novel.
You must be reading a different racial entry than the one being discussed here. The linked picture posted earlier railing on the kender? That's the racial write-up from the 3E/3.5 DL book. No other racial entry of any book that I've seen details how only close-minded people dislike the race being described, and how you're pretty much a giant bastard if you don't think they're the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Additionally, in the case of DL and kender, one CAN base an entire race on how one acted in a novel when that novel (or series of novels) are written by the exact same people who invented both Dragonlance AND the kender.
The kender detailed in those novels epitomizes the racial description from the rules. It's not farfetched to believe all kender act that way, given the circumstances.
The write up says the races acts like that. They way its written a kender that does not act like that is not acting like a kender at all.
The write-up is indeed from the 3e/3.5 DL book. It's not archaic; it's the current rules.
The only official thing more up-to-date on Kender is the listing in Races of Ansalon which I just looked up. Mixed with a lot of good advice on how not to play your Kender like an annoying prat the rest of the party would like to throttle (not their words, but the gist of it) is a further explanation of the Kender "excuses," and it's a doozy:
This absentminded approach to others’ personal
property can make the owner view a kender as a liar when
he is caught in the act. In most situations, the kender will
automatically have an excuse ready:• "You left it, so I didn’t think you wanted it anymore."
• "I was just holding it for you."
• "I was gonna give it back, but you wandered off
somewhere."
• "It must be magical, because it just appeared in my
pouch!"
• "Someone was going to steal it, so I'm holding it for
safekeeping."
• "Just because I have it, and you didn't know that I took
it, doesn't mean I stole it."Even more frustrating for the owner, the kender is
totally sincere and truly believes what they have just said.
Kender do not always realize what they are doing might be
wrong.
Translation: While having ADHD and kleptomania, Kender are not pathological liars, but only because they don't need to be. Instead, they're actively delusional.
What this means is that all kender are one magic mushroom away from cutting out your heart while you sleep, putting it in their pocket, and the next morning claiming with all sincerity that this was done by the goblins.
I really can't fathom this. I know it was put in in an attempt to make the race appear more innocent and charming, but all it does is make them more and more deranged and creepy.
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Um... Kevin? Maybe you read something else into the 3.5 racial description, but that's the interpretation I got from it from the beginning.
Something else to consider, is that nowhere does it really say that Kender are the kind of constant pickpockets you imply they are. Yes they are hyper curious, and I'm sure they do pick pockets sometimes, but I suspect more often than not they are handling things they found that aren't actually on someone at the time.
"Kender are never happier than when their hands are in the pockets, pouches, or backpacks of those around them."
Sometimes, kyrt?
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Um... Kevin? Maybe you read something else into the 3.5 racial description, but that's the interpretation I got from it from the beginning.
Something else to consider, is that nowhere does it really say that Kender are the kind of constant pickpockets you imply they are. Yes they are hyper curious, and I'm sure they do pick pockets sometimes, but I suspect more often than not they are handling things they found that aren't actually on someone at the time.
"Kender are never happier than when their hands are in the pockets, pouches, or backpacks of those around them."
Sometimes, kyrt?
Like I said, the only way to play a Kender in any way that isn't annoying is to ignore everything ever written about the buggers. Outside of maybe one in the novels, apparently.
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As an example consider playing a kender based upon scrappy-do, fearless and ready to go into danger wanting to find out what is going on, a little hyper...........So, a halfling, right?
Look at any racial description of halflings in 0E, BECMI/RC, 1E, or 2E. They're Tolkien's hobbits. With 3.0, halflings became watered down, bland kender, resembling the prior versions only in a physically sense.
So basically, you're saying that kender should be played as halflings...which are based on kender.
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Serious? Scrappy was my favorite character. And after him it was Shaggy.Yeah, I stopped watching Scooby Doo after Scrappy was introduced.Yeah, sorry, I've only got the Dragonlance novels as reference for kender, so of course I'm biased.
And yes, I think of Scrappy-do and kender as the same annoying type of creature.
Well, you see, by the time Scrappy came out, "annoying" was no longer "cute" to me. Same thing with Kender, I wasn't young enough to forgive how amazingly annoying and absolutely ecologically improbable they were.
How I loathed Scrappy when he appeared. How I loved what they did to him in the first movie.
Suggesting that Kender are like Scrappy do not in any way endear them to me.
How many people would want to play in a game that starts out with the party tasked to 'deal with' a local infestation of kender?
How many people would want to play in a game that starts out with the party tasked to 'deal with' a local infestation of kender?
Kender genocide is one of the few things that I can unequivocally get behind!
How many people would want to play in a game that starts out with the party tasked to 'deal with' a local infestation of kender?
I wouldn't do it the way the DM intended, but if this is what I had before me, I would start with Knowledge Religion checks to figure out which perverse and mad god cursed the world with Kender, then set out on a crusade to burn this god's temples to the ground until the god reconsidered his awful mistake and turned them back into halflings or goblins or whatever they were before.
If there were an orbital mind control laser or similar magic charming all good and neutral beings into being amused by the kender's "playful antics," I would work to destroy it, as it is clearly the work of an evil god or madman who hates free will.
In short, rather than commit genocide, I would set out to remove kender from existence so that they never were.
Barring patronage of a mad god, kender could not exist. Hence, the thing to do is to deal with the mad god.
WTB Boots of Kender Stomping PST. Name your price.