But! I cry. That is not how they are written, that's how bad players choose to play them.
You haven't read how they are written, have you? The link is further up the thread.
Alright, I'm obviously not expert on Kender, but it seems to me that this kind of character could be really fun if you scale it back a little bit and use their culture as a springboard instead of a straitjacket. Find a way to channel their curiosity so that they aren't compelled to activate a trap just to see how it works. Maybe they're fascinated with magic items are objects with a lot of moving parts (just like tinker gnomes!). They might go out far out of their way to acquire such an item, but if it stands the chance of being useful, a few antics in the course of procuring it are more likely to be tolerated by a party.
As far as the stealing thing... This is one of those things that you would pick up on pretty quickly once you started living or traveling among other races. Instead of ignoring, play with their poor understanding of ownership. They know people are going to get pissed when they steal s+*# and they know it's against the wall, they just don't understand why. Have them grumble when they pay for something. Make them unsure as to what exactly they're supposed to pay for - stealing a masterwork sword is one thing, but assuming you can sleep in the inn for free isn't going to elicit nearly the same kind of reaction. I think restaurants would provide an interesting experience. I'd have them try to leave with their cutlery - didn't that come with the price of the meal?
You know, I think Kender would be a nightmare for any restaurant owner--they don't pay, if they do pay they fail to tip, they take forever to make up their mind when reading the menu then change their order five times once they do, they walk off with the silverware, and finally, if called on any of this, they're incredibly rude and insulting to the point where you nearly have a heart attack to hear them.
At what point does a restauranteur become LE to put up a KENDER NOT SERVED AT THIS ESTABLISHMENT sign?
Admittedly they could be treated as children, with the menu and the bill both presented to the non-kender in the party, but this is still a bit extreme as in the real world, your average twelve year old is perfectly competent to go to the mall food court, order his own lunch, pay for it, and observe the social order.
I also frankly wonder where exactly kender get the fancy if tasteless clothes they wear. They seem incapable of running any business that would produce such things, and members of those races capable of making such things would likely only do it to order, with payment in advance, and no sane peddler would try to take his wares to a kender village, and even the insane ones would quickly go bankrupt with such a business model so it still begs the question of who's making their stuff.
Humans, elves, dwarves and halflings are all depicted as reasonably industrious and capable of commerce, and the gnomes even more so, so there's no problem with any of them wearing even the most outlandish costumes and haute couture. Half-orcs are a half-race anyway, so are either dressed like humans or more often like orc barbarians in ill-tanned skins, so no problem there either.
Garish colors, OTOH, require a high level of the dyer's art, unless you go with Prestidigitation, but the less you think of magic's impact on the economy, the better. And even if you do, most wizards wouldn't want to do any favors for the Kender or enable their bad taste.
Basically the race as written not only requires suspension of disbelief but that it be hung by the neck until dead.
You know, I think Kender would be a nightmare for any restaurant owner--they don't pay, if they do pay they fail to tip, they take forever to make up their mind when reading the menu then change their order five times once they do, they walk off with the silverwareYou know... that's not necessarily true. While yes the Kender would be prone to walking off with the silverware, there's a difference between property, and a service. The Kender would be paying for the cooking, not the food itself.
Also, I strongly suspect if somebody taught the Kender that you leave a tip after eating at a restaraunt, the Kender would leave something he considers valuable. While the majority of the time the restaurant owner is going to get minimal value out of it (perhaps equivalent to a few coppers, with the occasional worthless thing) every once in a while a Kender may leave a jeweled ring he happened to pick up somewhere.
I don't think paying or tipping with stolen property is looked upon very kindly by a respectable establishment. Dirty thieves.
The jeweled ring is almost certainly hot, and depending on the legality of the society, liable to get the restaurant owner in trouble if he tries to hock it.
This also requires a Kender to translate "15% of the bill" as "random thing I gots in my pockets." Which is fine for a singular Kender, but if you apply it across the board, you're just inventing another annoying racial custom.
It reminds me of the Asperger's kid in my 7th grade math class who one day pulled a dead rat tail out of his pocket. Yes, it was intriguing, but it violated so many of the don't-play-with-death-things rats-are-icky ew societal conventions that the rest of the class could hardly be blamed for being more than a little grossed out and moreover wondering exactly why he wasn't in special ed apart from being able to handle advanced math.
Following the logic that apparently Kender have Aspergers as well as ADHD, the tip could just as easily consist of a rat tail or a particularly beautiful jewel-tone cockroach. In which case, I still think restaurant owners would want absolutely nothing to do with Kender.
Even the coins they leave were probably stolen off a dead child's eyes.
I have Asperger's myself, sir, and I'll have you know that dead rats are oft used as currency between us.
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Dead rat..... Was that not on the menu, under Rat Kabobs. Right below B.B.Q Dog steak.
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Dead rat..... Was that not on the menu, under Rat Kabobs. Right below B.B.Q Dog steak.
Yes, but probably even goblin restaurants don't have a BYOR (Bring Your Own Rat) policy, or if they do, they'd just assume any rat left on the table was leftovers.
You realize we're now arguing that the Golarion goblins are saner than the Forgotten Realms kender.
Bah! Deviance is an illusion defined by the multitudes. As such, goblins aren't really crazy. They're exuberant and misunderstood.
They burned my spellbook and ate the halfling's riding dog! Those mischievous scamps!
Indeed, lovable rapscallions, the lot of them.
Handled items.I don't think paying or tipping with stolen property is looked upon very kindly by a respectable establishment. Dirty thieves.You know, I think Kender would be a nightmare for any restaurant owner--they don't pay, if they do pay they fail to tip, they take forever to make up their mind when reading the menu then change their order five times once they do, they walk off with the silverwareYou know... that's not necessarily true. While yes the Kender would be prone to walking off with the silverware, there's a difference between property, and a service. The Kender would be paying for the cooking, not the food itself.
Also, I strongly suspect if somebody taught the Kender that you leave a tip after eating at a restaraunt, the Kender would leave something he considers valuable. While the majority of the time the restaurant owner is going to get minimal value out of it (perhaps equivalent to a few coppers, with the occasional worthless thing) every once in a while a Kender may leave a jeweled ring he happened to pick up somewhere.
I understand. You like Kender. You're a kender apologist. But stealing is stealing, it doesn't belong to them.
I'm gonna go kill some schoolchildren and just explain to the authorities that I can't help it, it's part of my culture. No dice friend. Evil is evil, theft is theft, and kender are douchebags.
Tigers aren't sentient, my friend. At least I sure hope not - an army of organized tigers is not a force I care ponder...
Both.
Is a tiger that kills and eats a human a murderer? Or is it a hunter?
False dichotomy. Furthermore, the argument suggests that kender are no more intelligent/sentient than an animals. However they must be because they show nothing but malice towards every other living thing.
Tigers aren't sentient, my friend. At least I sure hope not - an army of organized tigers is not a force I care ponder...In game? Their just dumb beasts with an int of 1 (or 2, don't feel like checking.)
In reality? You'll find many, MANY animals are smarter than a good portion of humans (including some generally functional ones)
But, since we're going this route, lets discuss cannibals. Is a cannibal evil for hunting people when his culture taught him that the flesh of those outside their tribe is what sustains the lifeforce of their tribe?
In the real world? One could make an argument. In D&D? Evil.
Cannibalism is a can of worms I'd rather not open when we're talking about theft - they really don't stack up. I can see where you're coming from, and I think a couple of slip up are understandable and even to be expected when such an individual is first introduced to a new culture, but they're creatures capable of reason, and once the concept is explained to them and they've had some time to digest it, I thinks it's reasonable to expect them to honor the customs of the culture in which they reside.
False dichotomy. Furthermore, the argument suggests that kender are no more intelligent/sentient than an animals. However they must be because they show nothing but malice towards every other living thing.Both.
Is a tiger that kills and eats a human a murderer? Or is it a hunter?
Wait... WHAT!?
Where do you see malice? Kender are playful, curious, innocent creatures.
Quite the contrary. They are cold, unfeeling sociopaths. They show no remorse for the destruction they have wrought. See? Anyone can make silly assertions. The only judge is their deeds, and they steal as a matter of course. You can call it handling, fondling, noodweasling, or Olivia Newton-John, but that kender just took something that belonged to me and the only rational response is genocide.
Don't call it Olivia Newton-John. Then you have to believe they are magic and nothing can stand in their way.
Except grease.
In the history of threads, since canabalism has appeared in a post then within 7 more posts both rape and hitler must appear in a post following the first post..........
Yes a kender PC can be a headache, as well as the one who says he is CN, or elects a class for manical purposes.....
The problem is not the race, the class, or the alignment It is the player making those choices!
You know, I've seen the light! You're absolutely right. Any player who would play a kender is clearly a problem player and should be blacklisted from anyone's game. It's the player after all :)
The most important thing is too find a party that will enjoy playing with a Kender. Everyone comes to the table to have fun, and Kender just suck the joy out of the game for many. Discuss what implications it will have for the other PCs and the runner from how you plan on playing the character. If everyone thinks they will be okay with it great knock yourself out. If the other PCs have to metagame just let you in the party don't play that character.
If you want the offical 3.x rules the book starts with shipping at $5.16 + tax on Amazon.
Kender can be played intelligently and well, but the number of persons doing neither one is legion and thus the problem.
1 bad kender spoilers a DM for life. Ah the wounds run deep....
I still insist that there exist players who play Kender well.
I am one of them and have met at least two others, that leaves a bunch of people with no idea....such as one who leaves a rat or stolen ring as a tip, or says kender do not pay for meals......
Someone admit to seeing a well-played kender in action, rather than speculations of what they might do....
Also anyone who has seen bad kender players in action. I am sure there are some of each.
I also suspect there are some who say no because the first DM said no and told "horror stories of kender".......(that is how racism works!)
** spoiler omitted **
Well, my Kender hate comes from first hand experience as a GM and player in more than one game where there were Kender inflicted on the party.
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I've both played and GMed kender. Done well, they can be a great addition to a party, one that provides great amounts of fun. Done poorly, they suck...just like a poorly played elf, dwarf, human, etc. The only real difference is that kender are harder to play well than those other races...playing a kender well is a balancing act.
It's funny, in about 2/3 of the games I've played in, the thief/rogue character steals from PCs, or at the very least swoops in to grab all the good loot while the other characters are still fighting. But I don't see anyone on these or similar boards saying "Rogues suck! If a player decides to play a rogue, you should kill his character at the first oportunity!"
I think kender-hate vs kender-tollerance comes down to one thing....if they other players are there to have fun, or if they are actively trying to "win the game". A kender character is a bad choice for a group where most of the players are trying to "win the game". But that's less about the kender and more about the fact that you have one player who doesn't really care about "winning the game" playing with a bunch of people who care about that more than anything else.
yep, cannabalism, rape, hitler and now racism all in one thread...
Actually cannibalism, rape, and genocide are all germane to the topic since what gets people set off about Kender is the stealing (and euphemistically calling it anything but that) which all comes down to being secure in one's person and possessions and having ones own cultural beliefs respected by others.
Some cultures believe that cannibalism is the ultimate sacrilege. Others believe that it's the ultimate sacrament--Tibetan Buddhism, for example, where after their death the bodies of holy lamas are ground up to be taken as medicine by the faithful. After that, all you're arguing is what the deceased would want done with their dead body. Imposing your own cultural beliefs instead of respecting another's is racism and cultural imperialism.
Rape? Same thing. It's a matter of unwillingly having one's person sexually violated.
Murder and genocide? Same again. It's a matter of the recipient being unwilling. Otherwise, it's assisted suicide.
Theft, again the same. Curiosity is no excuse. One may be curious what it would be like to have sex with someone. If they say no, and you force them, it's rape, no matter what pet delusion or lie you happen to be using. Even if she invited it by wearing a chastity belt, because by the kender racial write-up, all locks are meant to be opened and explored, and there is no note saying that chastity belts are exempt from this list. I mean, it must be something strange and marvelous to have been locked away behind such a contraption, right?
One might also be curious about what it would be like to kill someone and then eat them. Acting on this curiosity is murder and cannibalism.
In fact, I can, with very little trouble, make an argument that Golarion goblins are more upstanding and moral creatures than any kender ever. Goblins believe that written words steal thoughts out of your head. The poor wizard there? He's been driven mad by what he's seen in those awful pages. Best to kill him to stop the madness from spreading and burn the evil evil book with cleansing fire. Dogs? Same thing. Unlike the noble wolf, friend of goblins, the dog has been "domesticated"--hideous code for being brainwashed and enslaved to human masters, content to do tricks in exchange for food until one day it finally goes postal, more savage than any wolf, ripping the throat out of any and all in sight. Killing a dog is a mercy killing for a mad slave, and killing a dog owner is killing a slaver. If you do not believe the goblins, watch "Old Yeller," a hideous and frightening play most goblins weep to watch until at last seeing the moral uplifting joyous ending where the deluded human child at last realizes the dog is mad and evil and must be destroyed!
Kender? Unlike the goblins who are determined to root out madness and evil, the kender are sybaritic prats, living only for their own personal amusement and profiting by the handiwork of others.
If I was in a game with someone who constantly ruined diplomacy attempts (screwing over other players), pulled whatever levers and activating every mechanism they saw (screwing over other players), stealing from PCs and NPCs alike and utterly indescriminately (screwing over other players), and generally...well, screwing over other players?
I would ask them to leave, and they would not be allowed back.
That's not cute of funny, it's anti-social behavior. It's not the sign of a child, it's the sign of a jerk.
Stop calling them "childlike." Children don't act this way. This isn't the mark of innocence, it's a sign of sociopathy. It's evidence of an individual who is physically and chemically incapable of understanding another's thought process and is utterly without remorse or empathy. That's serial killer behavior.
Kender can be played intelligently and well, but the number of persons doing neither one is legion and thus the problem.
1 bad kender spoilers a DM for life. Ah the wounds run deep....
I still insist that there exist players who play Kender well.
The actual rules for Kender disagree with you.
You are missing how most of these disruptive players interpret "childlike". To them it means "must be the center of attention" and "do whatever it takes to focus attention on you". It doesn't matter if it's good attention or bad attention, as long as it's attention.
It doesn't help that the Kender are codified to be the center of attention and do whatever it takes to focus attention on themselves.
But, since we're going this route, lets discuss cannibals. Is a cannibal evil for hunting people when his culture taught him that the flesh of those outside their tribe is what sustains the lifeforce of their tribe?Yes.
Did... Did you just answer someone a full minute before they asked?!?
I still insist that there exist players who play Kender well.
You, me, Kyrt-ryder, probably Ktulhu, and that's just in this page of the discussion. We could probably gather enough for a Kender-only play-by-post.
so wouldnt kenders have a maximum of 6 in every stat, because I HATE them!
muahahahahaha (drive by kender hate)
This is actually covered in one of the Raistlin/Caramon prequel novels... the case of the disappearing cats.You know, I think Kender would be a nightmare for any restaurant owner--they don't pay, if they do pay they fail to tip, they take forever to make up their mind when reading the menu then change their order five times once they do, they walk off with the silverware, and finally, if called on any of this, they're incredibly rude and insulting to the point where you nearly have a heart attack to hear them.
At what point does a restauranteur become LE to put up a KENDER NOT SERVED AT THIS ESTABLISHMENT sign?
What was the conclusion? You're LE if you refuse to serve annoying twits who steal your silverware?
The conclusion? The innkeeper was far more worried about Raistlin's presence than Tasslehoff's. (and mind you this is Pre-Evil Raistlin) (Caramon of course was off busy sneaking some kiss time with the innkeeper's daughter) If you want a more definite answer... read the book.What was the conclusion? You're LE if you refuse to serve annoying twits who steal your silverware?This is actually covered in one of the Raistlin/Caramon prequel novels... the case of the disappearing cats.You know, I think Kender would be a nightmare for any restaurant owner--they don't pay, if they do pay they fail to tip, they take forever to make up their mind when reading the menu then change their order five times once they do, they walk off with the silverware, and finally, if called on any of this, they're incredibly rude and insulting to the point where you nearly have a heart attack to hear them.
At what point does a restauranteur become LE to put up a KENDER NOT SERVED AT THIS ESTABLISHMENT sign?
Hmm, kender...less of a worry than twitchy wizards.
That's hardly a sterling recommendation for the race.
It's all here...
http://www.kencyclopedia.com/kender/general/
Like 1st edition D&D some of it is Bas Ackwards.
Do you remember negitive AC?
Having Kender take things but be offended by being called thieves has got to go. While that they cannot help stealing is only inferred it has to be expressly warned against.