Unfortunately that is the nature of this argument. You are essentially telling someone how to play by saying that they are no longer playing a kender- not playing against type, not being one of the "good ones". They are no longer doing what they say they are doing, which is where feelings, rightfully imo, get disturbed. Hopefully we can keep this thread going in a way to resolve this for all involved parties without sporking one another in the eye.Fair enough. This HAS been a 'No TRUE Paladin' style thread for the most part...
Perhaps we can do better this time around. The kender writeups elevate, even as the verbal sniping and instance that noone can do anything differently drags us down.
Unfortunately that is the nature of this argument. You are essentially telling someone how to play by saying that they are no longer playing a kender- not playing against type, not being one of the "good ones". They are no longer doing what they say they are doing, which is where feelings, rightfully imo, get disturbed. Hopefully we can keep this thread going in a way to resolve this for all involved parties without sporking one another in the eye.But, nobody is actually saying "don't do that" - they're saying "fine, but if you do that, you're not playing a kender".
There's a difference.
The kender is a tightly defined race that does certain things, and is hardwired to do those things. Altering or removing those things completely dissolves what a kender is.
You don't turn rubies green and expect people to consider them rubies still.
By all means, play what you want, but when you take an established item and change it's very essence, you've changed that item into something else entirely - something that's NOT a kender.
I never said anyone was saying "Don't do that", so I don't know where you're coming from on that angle.
The only way we're going to resolve this is with an old fashioned "sez you!!!", I fear.
Do I really need to post the entire 1 E write up? I hate to do that much typing!
The entire write-up? No.
Snippets that might actually reinforce the contrived scenario you just posted, along with a citation of book title and page number? Yes, please.
You're the only one yelling here, or at least using exclamation points which is the closest you can come on a posting board.
(Please do not use your CAPS LOCK key too.)
What I keep posting are things that would be taboo for a human but perfectly permissible for a kender, given the racial write up. You then run around chanting "Kender are not evil!" while having your kender do anything except violate the human taboo.
How is this not metagaming?
Let's say the dead girl, besides having coins on her eyes, has a doll in her hands, stuff in her pockets, and is surrounded by a veritable toyshop of grave goods--jumping jacks, hobby horses, ball-and-cup games, every lovely pretty thing a rich grieving parent could bury a child with. Does the kender touch any of this stuff or put it in his own pockets? If not, why not?
The other party members teach the kender things (as described in the racial right-up that I have quoted on here)
So how do others get along well with kender?
Examples of playing well with a kender
Paladin
“Has anyone seen my sword?”Kender
“Let me look….here it is by this tree.”Paladin
“You are a boon companion, now we are ready to camp, can you check the trail the way we came and make sure we are not being followed and that we did not drop anything along the way?”Kender returns
“You guys dropped all kinds of stuff, you must be more careful…and their was a big monster but I got him…”The dead girl scenario (after the Kender stops blubbering)
Paladin
“It is a sign of respect for humans to leave things for those who have died, would you like to leave anything?”Kender
“What about those coins?”Paladin
“You could trade those for some of your own coins, but they must be of equal value, would you rather just leave your coins also?”Do I really need to post the entire 1 E write up? I hate to do that much typing!
If you have it, go for it. I'd love to see it, and it may resolve arguments with respect to how kender have changed during editions and how pro- and anti-kender bias has affected the race's writeup.
Do I really need to post the entire 1 E write up? I hate to do that much typing!The entire write-up? No.
Snippets that might actually reinforce the contrived scenario you just posted, along with a citation of book title and page number? Yes, please.
Given the level of vitriol aimed, I'd say nothing less than the whole thing is necessary.
I never said anyone was saying "Don't do that", so I don't know where you're coming from on that angle.
"Don't do that" or "You have to do that" or whatever. That's "telling someone how to play".
Stating that an inconsistent application of kender traits, or a kender acting completely contradictory to what kender do is "not playing a kender" is not telling someone how to play.
The only way we're going to resolve this is with an old fashioned "sez you!!!", I fear.
It sometimes seems that we're debating over whether the color red is actually red, or if it's blue, so you may be right.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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So here kk writes that he curtails his behaviour for friends, but will steal from NPCs bricks or loafs of bread (funny, the write ups are pretty clear that kender steal regardless of value, yet KK's seems to decide how much something is worth before he decides to tell someone)
Yet, despite nicking things from NPCs in typical fashion, he'll now control those impulses and ask the other characters for permission before nicking the coins from the dead girl.
I never said anyone was saying "Don't do that", so I don't know where you're coming from on that angle.
"Don't do that" or "You have to do that" or whatever. That's "telling someone how to play".
Stating that an inconsistent application of kender traits, or a kender acting completely contradictory to what kender do is "not playing a kender" is not telling someone how to play.
The only way we're going to resolve this is with an old fashioned "sez you!!!", I fear.
It sometimes seems that we're debating over whether the color red is actually red, or if it's blue, so you may be right.
Having dug out and reread the 1e write up..its worse. And it has the claw hammer remark Brain listed above in it as well. Most likely the very same write up.
Corse the in dragonlance adventurers also says they are eavesdroppers and have an overwhelming need to open every lock they find and often depend on others to get them out of trouble
Quote " I guess I shouldn't have opened that door with the big warning sign on it , Huh?"
My typing sucks or I would type the whole 3-5 pages, but it does not get better at all.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Having dug out and reread the 1e write up..its worse. And it has the claw hammer remark Brain listed above in it as well. Most likely the very same write up.
Corse the in dragonlance adventurers also says they are esedroppers and have an overwhelming need to open every lock they find and often depend on others to get them out of trouble
Quote " I guess I shouldn't have opened that door with the big warning sign on it , Huh?"
My typing sucks or I would type the whole 3-5 pages, but it does not get better at all.
I just posted the parts from issue 101 under fair use, but it seems to be consistent.
Given the level of vitriol aimed, I'd say nothing less than the whole thing is necessary.
Considering that we've posted multiple citations from multiple versions (including 1E) that contradict his statements, I don't consider it vitriolic to ask (as multiple people have, about a dozen times now) for something that backs up his claims of "this is how it was in 1E".
If kender were allegedly this inconsistent, and had the supernatural ability to turn off their "charms" when in the company of other PCs, it should be easy to support that, yes?
Given the level of vitriol aimed, I'd say nothing less than the whole thing is necessary.Considering that we've posted multiple citations from multiple versions (including 1E) that contradict his statements, I don't consider it vitriolic to ask (about a dozen times) for something that backs up his claims of "this is how it was in 1E"
Without the whole thing put up, cherry-picking could easily be argued.
I just posted the parts from issue 101 under fair use, but it seems to be consistent.
Agreed it is pretty much word for word what you posted. It seems like they used it both places.
Without the whole thing put up, cherry-picking could easily be argued.Given the level of vitriol aimed, I'd say nothing less than the whole thing is necessary.Considering that we've posted multiple citations from multiple versions (including 1E) that contradict his statements, I don't consider it vitriolic to ask (about a dozen times) for something that backs up his claims of "this is how it was in 1E"
Even cherry-picked quotes would be a step up from where we're at.
Oh and the ranger thing is in there as well, kender get their feeling hurt easy it seems. But the thing about them believing what ever lie they told you about where they got an item is there as well.
But so is a thing about them causing full scale riots with tuantings because they are irritated, they are very effective at hurting peoples feelings.
It makes them out to be mad more then anything when you take all that with the sorcity section of doing what ever they feel like and changing leaders when ever one grows bored.
Even cherry-picked quotes would be a step up from where we're at.Without the whole thing put up, cherry-picking could easily be argued.Given the level of vitriol aimed, I'd say nothing less than the whole thing is necessary.Considering that we've posted multiple citations from multiple versions (including 1E) that contradict his statements, I don't consider it vitriolic to ask (about a dozen times) for something that backs up his claims of "this is how it was in 1E"
Hey, you just said I'm right twice in a row practically, so I think we're in a pretty good place right now!
Oh and the ranger thing is in there as well, kender get their feeling hurt easy it seems. But the thing about them believing what ever lie they told you about where they got an item is there as well.
But so is a thing about them causing full scale riots with tuantings because they are irritated, they are very effective at hurting peoples feelings.
It makes them out to be mad more then anything when you take all that with the sorcity section of doing what ever they feel like and changing leaders when ever one grows bored.
Without the writeup, and especially with your late addition, I could accuse you withholding information that could be used to prove you wrong. We need more writeups here. I'll see what I can do with the Saga and 3.x stuff I have at home. I'll need other sources for the 1st and 2nd ed stuff.
Even cherry-picked quotes would be a step up from where we're at.Without the whole thing put up, cherry-picking could easily be argued.Given the level of vitriol aimed, I'd say nothing less than the whole thing is necessary.Considering that we've posted multiple citations from multiple versions (including 1E) that contradict his statements, I don't consider it vitriolic to ask (about a dozen times) for something that backs up his claims of "this is how it was in 1E"
Hey, you just said I was right practically twice in a row, so I think we're in a pretty good place right now!!
Heh, no nothing I says proves me wrong, it does make kenderkin seem to be cherrypicking however. He chose to talk of that yet nothing else in the whole write up. I disclosed that as well, I could have easily not said anything about it, but that would have been cherry picking.
That part does nothing to disprove anything, but goes on to prove that they act made more then anything.
I removed some posts (and the replies to them). It is not actually that difficult to treat others with respect. In particular, it is bad to put words in other peoples' mouth.
This takes me ages.... I started with kender philosophy
Four things make a kender's personality drastically different from that of a typical human. Kender are utterly fearless, insatiably
curious, unstoppably mobile and independent, and will pick up anything that is not nailed down (though kender with claw ham- mers will get those things as well).
The fearlessness that all kender possess gives them a strong sense of confidence. They are quite carefree or marter-of-fact about a situation, even if things look hopeless and grim ("No sense in running away now. There's 500 goblins surrounding us!"). Kender react effectively to dangerous situations, fighting hard and fearlessly. They sometimes come up with some bizarre tactics that may carry the
day in battle. But even kender don't let their fearlessness get in the way of selfpreservation--most of the time.
Kender appreciate the need for caution, but their uncontrollable curiosity gets them into trouble on adventures. They forever have
to check out unexplored places and peek into dark corners. They have no desire to be the second or third person to enter the Caverns of
Unspeakable Doom; they want to be first. Pointing out that no one ever returns from the Caverns of Unspeakable Doom has no effect. In fact, describing what makes the caverns so unspeakable might even excite the kender further and make him or her determined to go to the caverns at once. ("An evil archmage and an army of ogres? Wow! Let's go see 'emt")
Some kender might allow their curiosity to overcome their common sense when facing unusual opponents, such as dragons, though they eventually learn to run when running is best.
A kender's fellow adventurers often have to teach him that certain things have big. nasty teeth and that avoiding these things is often in
the kender's best interests, regardless of what the kender's opinions are in the matter. Whenever a kender displays an inordinately
sensible attitude about danger, it is probably because the kender realizes that continued curiosity will ruin any further chances of doing exciting things ever again.
Kender are intensely curious about everthing unusual. Magic awes and fascinates them, as do large, unusual, or dramatic creatures like chimeras, centaurs, unicorns and, of course, dragons. Kender are drawn to beautiful things, but things that others find disgusting are often seen by kender as intriguing or humorous in some way (even gully dwarves). Though strong-willed, kender are not prone to consider all the possible results of their behavior. A kender may quickly and
impulsively paint himself into a corner, then wait for someone else to come along and get him out of the jam. Sometimes this means
that the kender's fellow adventurers are painnted into the same corner ("I guess I shouldn't ave opened that locked door with the warning signs on it, huh?"). Experienced adventurers quickly come to dread that most awful of kender sayings: "Oops!"
Another important point is that kender need action--and they need it now! They thrive on excitement and yearn for new adventures. "I'm just along for the fun" is a common saying among wandering kender. It has
been suggested that the worst torture that could be inflicted on a kender would be to lock him up and give him nothing new to do
or look at. (Conversely, it has been said that the worst torture one can visit on any nonkender Would be to lock him up in a bare cell with
a bored kender.) Some kender believe that evil creatures are condemned to an afterlife where they will be eternally bored.
Most kender are encountered during wanderlust, a particular phase in a kender's life that occurs for most kender during their early
20s. Apparently the kender's natural curiosity and desire for action suddenly go into overdrive at this time, and kender are driven to
wander the land as far as they can go. Wanderlust may last for many years, and some kender have a habit of making maps of their travels
during this time. Sadly, most kender are poor map makers, lacking the patience and skills to chart their travels accurately. Kender may collect other maps during this time to satisfy their curiosity about other places. This wanderlust is responsible for spreading kender
communities across the continent of Ansalon. Risky deeds draw kender like gold draws dragons, but risk must be combined with action or else they lose interest. Gambling with cards won't hold a kender's attention for long, but seeing if one can outrun a mad owlbear is another thing. Bravery is easily con- fused with recklessness where kender are concerned.
Kender are natural extroverts and enjoy making new friends and seeing new places. Most kender are very personable and friendlytoo friendly for some people, who dislike their nosiness, their extreme talkativeness (which grows worse when they get excited), and their habit of pocketing every- thing that interests them.
Kender also resent being given orders; they want to do what they want to do when they want to do it. Telling them to do otherwise is worse than useless, as they will complain loudly and disrespectfully, taunting if they're mad enough. The best way to handle kender, say
old adventurers, is not to give them orders, but to get them to volunteer. Kender are sensitive and can be easily hurt by indifference or intentional cutting remarks (triggering their taunting talents almost immediately).
Kender treasure their friends; if a kender's friends are injured or slain, the kender may become very depressed and upset. Death only
seems to affect a kender when it comes to one that the kender knows and loves, or when it is meted out by disaster or warfare to innocent
beings (including any kender). In such cases, the distress that the usually cheerful kender feels is terrible to behold. A story is told of a human ranger during in the Age of Dreams who wounded a deer that was the pet of a kender community. The sight of the entire village of small kender crying their hearts out was so upsetting to the ranger that he quested until he found a druid who could heal the animal, then retired and took up fishing.
Kender are masters of taunting, sarcasm, and outright rudeness when they are riled. Their intense curiosity gives them shocking insights into the characters and natures of other people, though such an awareness is generally shallow. It is acute enough, however, for a
kender to forge an idea of another person's character flaws, giving the kender the ability to create the most stinging insults that can be
imagined. Full-scale riots have been started by irritated kender who opened up on someone with their verbal guns.
Taunting is one of the few defenses that kender have. Being smaller than most other beings, kender resent anyone who takes advantage of them. A kender could not imaine taunting a fellow kender; after all, they're in this together. Taunting is especially effective if a kender has others to back him up or some trap that a maddened attacker can be
lured into with little cost to the kender. Though not very effective against the largest creatures (who will not have their combat
effectiveness reduced greatly), taunting can still give a hard-pressed kender an edge in a fight. It is best used against those who are either attacking or are about to attack; there's no sense in angering a potential friend.
More later must stop for now
cherry picking is that like meta-gaming?....
I used the story of the deer to show kender understand loss and through that how one might react at seeing a dead girl....
Unfortunately no racial write-up is going to say how a kender will respond to seeing a dead girl....
No the deer was a pet, not some random person. And it's not the same thing, the deer did not have shinny things the kender just had to go look at. If it had they had already seen it at that point.
They are simply not the same thing at all.Being a pet/friend means nothing to kender when it comes to stealing, they just do it and can't stop.
cherry picking is that like meta-gaming?....
I used the story of the deer to show kender understand loss and through that how one might react at seeing a dead girl....
Unfortunately no racial write-up is going to say how a kender will respond to seeing a dead girl....
No the deer was a pet, not some random person. And it's not the same thing, the deer did not have shinny things the kender just had to go look at. If it had they had already seen it at that point.
They are simply not the same thing at all.Being a pet/friend means nothing to kender when it comes to stealing, they just do it and can't stop.
The foil to this statement is in the same sentence- kender do feel remorse and are saddened by death "when it comes to one that the kender knows and loves, or when it is meted out by disaster or warfare to innocent
beings (including any kender). In such cases, the distress that the usually cheerful kender feels is terrible to behold."I would argue the kender would be too distraught to do much of anything other than bury it in accordance with kender funerary customs. Which may include a glance at the pockets or not, I have to check.
No, the kender did not know the girl, does not know her death, did not witness it. Hell the kender would lie and believe it about where it got the coins anyhow.
Now if it saw the child die or knew the child that would count. But a random dead child not so much and those coins are oh so very interesting. It might cry over the dead child but later would not recall where it got such very interesting coins from. But it would take those coins, it just could not pass them up.
That is also in the write up, which I shall post a bit later.
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No, the race write up tells you how the race must be played.
Just as the race write up for dwarves tells you how the race must be played (ie, with no respect for elves, gnomes, or halflings).
Before you all begin ranting about gnomes and the Bleaching, please point out to me where that is detailed in the Core Rulebook. Ain't in there, folks, that's a purely Golarion thing.
Before you begin saying that I should just play a slightly more kender-like halfling since kender are just halfling rip-offs, I would ask a couple of things. Read over a pre-3.x halfling racial description...you have the rip-off portion right, but the wrong way around. Secondly, take an actual look at the mechanics...kender may be similar, but there are distinct differences. Might as well tell people who want to play a gnome just to play an obsessive dwarf.
Before you all begin yammering about how kender have no place in Golarion, and would have been killed off by all the other races long ago, please explain the continued existence of goblins, kobolds, and the like (races far more worthy of genocide). Also, please point me to where the OP asked about kender in Golarion. Point of fact, he never did.
People use the Pathfinder RPG to play in more campaign settings than just Golarion. Some people play in Greyhawk, or Blackmoor, or the Forgotten Realms, or Spelljammer, or Planescape, or Ebberon, or Dark Sun, or even Dragonlance. Please note the last item on that list, as that campaign setting is rather known for having kender.
About a hundred posts back, someone advised me to just let it go, that kender weren't worth the effort. While I somewhat agree, I do have to wonder this: If they are barely worth the effort for someone who does like them, then why are they seemingly SO worth the effort for people who profess to dislike them. When I dislike an element of popular (or even not so popular) entertainment, I don't spend hours ranting about it. I ignore and avoid it.
Take, for example, the TV show "The Big Bang Theory". I don't like it. I don't choose to express this dislike by watching every episode and then loudly expressing how much it sucks to anyone unfortunate enough to be in the vicinity. I simply don't watch it and don't think about it all that much (in fact, I had to work a little google-fu just to remember the name of the damned show). If it comes up in conversation, I just say I don't watch it. I don't try to convince my friends that they should dislike it too...why should I try to take something that they draw amusement from away?
Because, really, do any of you hate kender so much that you really think that reaching 500+ posts of hateful bile about IMAGINARY CREATURES will really accomplish anything?
Well, this will be my last post in this thread. I came, I offered the OP a 3.0 version of kender, I got caught up in a rather stupid argument, and I offered up a Pathfinder-ized version of kender. I hope some of those who like kender find what I posted and like it. If you don't like kender, that's fine too. I won't dictate that you must play them in any games you play (whether those games involve me or not). All I ask in return is that you not try to dictate to me what I do in games that don't involve you in any way. Thank you, and have a Happy New Year.
Before you all begin ranting about gnomes and the Bleaching, please point out to me where that is detailed in the Core Rulebook. Ain't in there, folks, that's a purely Golarion thing.
And kender are a pure dragonlance thing. It has been pointed out many times now, the dwarf thing is culture, the kender stuff is in the soul, a part of the race that can not be turned off or unlearned. Like Gnomes and bleaching.
You can not talk about the race as is and ignore the things that make it what it is, then you have rewritten the race.
Death only seems to affect a kender when it comes to one that the kender knows and loves, OR when it is meted out by disaster or warfare to innocent beings (including any kender).
Knowing the girl or how she died is of little consequence to the kenders grief reaction.....
It is an innocent being dead, that is enough to qualify, even if only the kenders imagination comes up with how she died (curiosity now comes up).....
Can we stay on one topic at a time (ie resolve this before resolving if the kender will take something)......
How the kender feels has nothing to do with anything, sure it might be sad, but ti will take something. That is the topic. You keep claiming they will not based off it being sad, the write up says it will.
Not only will it, not only must it do so, but it will lie and believe its own lie about where the coin came from.
There is no cause in which they will not steal, they must steal and really he plans on bringing the coin back..til he lies and forgets where he really got it anyhow.
Sad does not turn off the kenders stealing, hell that ranger prob lost half his items.
Your moving the goal post here, show me where it says they stop stealing because they are sad? I can show you later where it says they must steal.
No, the kender did not know the girl, does not know her death, did not witness it. Hell the kender would lie and believe it about where it got the coins anyhow.
Now if it saw the child die or knew the child that would count. But a random dead child not so much and those coins are oh so very interesting. It might cry over the dead child but later would not recall where it got such very interesting coins from. But it would take those coins, it just could not pass them up.
That is also in the write up, which I shall post a bit later.
Piecemeal posting is cherry picking with a different paint job. If there's more, put up the whole thing so it can be appreciated in context.
No its called I can't type. I am a two finger typer and that is a hella lot of text. I have broken it up into the same sections in the book. I did skip the description section however.
I am posting them in the very same order you would read them. And at lest I am posting the 1e text.
Onto
Stealing vs handling
The kender concept of personal property and theft deserves special attention. Because many kender develop thieving talents, most
people assume they are merely innocentlooking but sneaky burglars. This is just not so. The intense curiosity that kender feel feeds their desire to know how locks can be opened, how to approach people unseen and listen in on their conversations, and how to reach into
pockets or pouches to find interesting things to look at. Thieving comes naturally to them--so naturally that they do not see it as thieving.
Kender do not steal for the sake of profit. First of all, they have little concept of value. Faced with a choice between a 2,000 steel
piece diamond and a huge, glittering chunk of purple glass, 90 kender out of 100 will take the glass. (The rest will take both but will get
rid of the diamond first.) They pick things up out of curiosity and wander off with them. Sometimes the owner of an item leaves before the kender can give the item back, or else the kender becomes enchanted with the item andforgets to return it. While adventuring, a kender regards anything found in an enemy stronghold as fair game for picking up, as such items are marvelous curios and might prove useful later on.
Even if caught red-handed while taking an item, the range of excuses a kender will offer is amazing:
"Guess I found it somewhere."
"I forgot that I had it."
"You walked off before I could give it
back."
"I was afraid someone else would take it."
"You must have dropped it."
"You put it down and I didn't think you
wanted it anymore."
"Maybe it fell into my pocket."
All of these lines are delivered with an innocent sincerity that is all the more maddening because the kender really is sincere[ A kender
might not necessarily remember where he found something, even if he picked it up half a minute before, and such responses are often
delivered as part of a subconscious defense mechanism. Intense curiosity is a trait ingrained in their souls and minds from their
racial creation by the Greystone of Gargath. They cannot be other than what they are natural thieves.
On the other hand, kender, like everyoneelse, do not like the idea of someone deliberately taking an item from someone else without the latter's permission. To be called a thief is still considered a base insult. This assertion sounds remarkable in view of the fact that
kender constantly borrow things from each other and from visitors (without asking) in their communities. Kender don't regard their
idea of borrowing as stealing, however. If they need something, they'll take it. If they see something interesting, they'll pick it up and
pocket it. A popular proverb defines a kender heirloom as anything that remains for more than three weeks inside a kender's home.
And Society
Society
The basic unit of kender society is the immediate family (parents and children). Because kender wander so much, extended families do not truly exist. A detailed discussion of kender politics, government, and society is impossible in the short space here available.
Suffice it to say that kender have the most horribly democratic system ever found on the face of Krynn--everyone is pretty much allowed to do as they please. Kender do not see any great need to impress their views onanyone else and are genuinely interested in the perspectives of others. Thus there seems to be little need for law or government.
Kender are naturally helpful and decent and thus have no need for a powerful central government. Interestingly, when an emer-gency does occur that requires the kender to cooperate, they do so naturally; with little preparation they can become a formidable unified group. his is not to say that the idea of government has not impressed the kender. Having seen the importance of civilization to all other societies in Krynn, kender have done their best to keep up. They have tried every conceivable type of government (and several types never imagined by nonkender) and are more than happy to give a new type of government
a chance. They will also follow any leader for as long as it seems like fun...usually at least five minutes. Kender society can also be hard to take. Nonkender visitors rarely stay longer than a week in any major kender town, unless they have a great sense of humor. It is not uncom-
mon to be relieved of one's possessions at every turn (occasionally by the constables themselves). Visitors are pelted by a constant barrage of questions and told a million lies and tall tales without rest or letup. Couple this with the constant flux of kender government (the rules change from moment to moment on a whim) and most civilized men
quickly flee in terror.
There has never been a standing kender army; those few invaders who have taken kender territory have never found the heart to stay
very long. Indeed, most kender communities find an occupation by invading forces to be a tremendous boost to their local economy since
invaders always bring such interesting things for the kender to handle.
that is everything 1e but the game info. And you will note not a single thing has changed. They act the very same way then as they do now.
The dead girl scenario (after the Kender stops blubbering)
Paladin
“It is a sign of respect for humans to leave things for those who have died, would you like to leave anything?”Kender
“What about those coins?”Paladin
“You could trade those for some of your own coins, but they must be of equal value, would you rather just leave your coins also?”
I think this is an example of a Paladin who took 0 ranks in Knowledge Religion or seriously botched his roll.
Cleric
*AHEM* I believe the good paladin, all respect to him and his order, is incorrect in his theology.
(Glares at Paladin.)
It is my understanding that the placing of two silverpieces upon the eyes of the dead is an ancient funerary rite, obviously practiced by this poor child's people, where the coins are the exact far demanded by the Ferryman, a death spirit that guards the river between this world and the afterlife. If the coins were to be taken, she might wander the world, a lost shade, wailing and bereft, because someone took her fare for the ferry. Replacing them with others, even of a similar nature, might or might not work, but I would tend toward the later, as they were placed upon her eyes with blessings and rites which you would not be able to replicate.
Kender
Could you?
Cleric
Perhaps, but my faith is not her faith, and in any case it would be against the tenets of my faith to even try. Indeed, taking anything from the dead is judged as a wicked deed and unwise besides. Is this not so, good bard?
Bard
(relates "The Golden Arm")
Kender
Kewl! I've never talked with a dead person before!
(Takes coins from dead child's eyes.)
The dead girl scenario (after the Kender stops blubbering)
Paladin
“It is a sign of respect for humans to leave things for those who have died, would you like to leave anything?”Kender
“What about those coins?”Paladin
“You could trade those for some of your own coins, but they must be of equal value, would you rather just leave your coins also?”I think this is an example of a Paladin who took 0 ranks in Knowledge Religion or seriously botched his roll.
Cleric
*AHEM* I believe the good paladin, all respect to him and his order, is incorrect in his theology.
(Glares at Paladin.)
It is my understanding that the placing of two silverpieces upon the eyes of the dead is an ancient funerary rite, obviously practiced by this poor child's people, where the coins are the exact far demanded by the Ferryman, a death spirit that guards the river between this world and the afterlife. If the coins were to be taken, she might wander the world, a lost shade, wailing and bereft, because someone took her fare for the ferry. Replacing them with others, even of a similar nature, might or might not work, but I would tend toward the later, as they were placed upon her eyes with blessings and rites which you would not be able to replicate.Kender
Could you?Cleric
Perhaps, but my faith is not her faith, and in any case it would be against the tenets of my faith to even try. Indeed, taking anything from the dead is judged as a wicked deed and unwise besides. Is this not so, good bard?Bard
(relates "The Golden Arm")Kender
Kewl! I've never talked with a dead person before!
(Takes coins from dead child's eyes.)
I find it more likely said kender would want to put coins over his eyes (preferably superglued) so he coule pester the ferryman about the dead people he's encountered when he dies, but whatever.
Also, note that Ansalon does not have this funerary tradition, and it is being shoehorned into this situation.
No, the race write up tells you how the race must be played.Just as the race write up for dwarves tells you how the race must be played (ie, with no respect for elves, gnomes, or halflings).
The rulebook does not say this. It does not say this at all.
I find it more likely said kender would want to put coins over his eyes (preferably superglued) so he coule pester the ferryman about the dead people he's encountered when he dies, but whatever.
Also, note that Ansalon does not have this funerary tradition, and it is being shoehorned into this situation.
Last I checked, Ansalon had imported the goddess Tyche from Greco-Roman mythology and also used the D&D rules, which has included Charonodaemons, based on Charon, the boatman of the River Styx.
This isn't a shoehorning, it's a reasonable extrapolation. Since people in Ansalon are worshipping a Greco-Roman goddess (who had a coin as her personal symbol, by the way) and also have Charonodaemons who are based directly on the legend of Charon, it's perfectly reasonable to say that some kid in a crypt somewhere was buried with customs that resemble ancient Greco-Roman funerary rites or any of the later medieval Christian rites based on the same.
Or I could say that she was buried with a doll in her hands and the funerary rites of her people were such that the doll was left to protect and watch over her and give her spirit comfort in the afterlife. Same difference. Does the kender nick the doll, or does he leave it be?
The dead girl scenario (after the Kender stops blubbering)
Paladin
“It is a sign of respect for humans to leave things for those who have died, would you like to leave anything?”Kender
“What about those coins?”Paladin
“You could trade those for some of your own coins, but they must be of equal value, would you rather just leave your coins also?”I think this is an example of a Paladin who took 0 ranks in Knowledge Religion or seriously botched his roll.
Cleric
*AHEM* I believe the good paladin, all respect to him and his order, is incorrect in his theology.
(Glares at Paladin.)
It is my understanding that the placing of two silverpieces upon the eyes of the dead is an ancient funerary rite, obviously practiced by this poor child's people, where the coins are the exact far demanded by the Ferryman, a death spirit that guards the river between this world and the afterlife. If the coins were to be taken, she might wander the world, a lost shade, wailing and bereft, because someone took her fare for the ferry. Replacing them with others, even of a similar nature, might or might not work, but I would tend toward the later, as they were placed upon her eyes with blessings and rites which you would not be able to replicate.Kender
Could you?Cleric
Perhaps, but my faith is not her faith, and in any case it would be against the tenets of my faith to even try. Indeed, taking anything from the dead is judged as a wicked deed and unwise besides. Is this not so, good bard?Bard
(relates "The Golden Arm")Kender
Kewl! I've never talked with a dead person before!
(Takes coins from dead child's eyes.)I find it more likely said kender would want to put coins over his eyes (preferably superglued) so he coule pester the ferryman about the dead people he's encountered when he dies, but whatever.
Also, note that Ansalon does not have this funerary...
Nor does it have paladins. Your point?
Nor does it have paladins. Your point?
It has Paladines, though. At least one of them...
You know, KenderKin posted a long while ago about Kender paladins and no one complained about that.
We're also talking about using using Kender outside of Dragonlance, so the point is immaterial.
Glad I missed that one. Auto falling paladins based on race choice would suck, but is the only outcome with that one.
Glad I missed that one. Auto falling paladins based on race choice would suck, but is the only outcome with that one.
No. If you look at the example, Kenderkin created an alternate reality populated entirely by pantomime villains as equally stupid as they are evil so the Kender paladin could do everything up to and including stealing their belts, their pants, and the knives in their hand with utter moral impunity.
It's obviously a pocket realm of the Sueniverse created entirely for the Kender paladin's benefit.
Villans have nothing to do with it, they steal and lie as often as they breath..ok more often but still the point stands.
No, the set up was the kender player asked if anything interesting was in the room. So the coins have caught his attention and are interesting, it was explained just why earlier.
The coins are interesting and you choose to not act like a kender and not take them. That simple.
The kender may or may not take the coins, it would be a choice on the part of the PC.
Many things may happen first including friends intervention to prevent anything they consider wrong.
Or my kender may not find the coins interesting.....
New argument kender always find coins interesting thus they must take them!
This still looks an awful lot like you metagaming to pilot your Kender away from anything the other PCs or their players may find un-cute or unsympathetic.
But new scenario. An entire town of Kender move into the ruins of an ancient human civilization. While poking about the ruins, they find a door down to catacombs where this civilization buried their innocent children and decked them out with all manner of finery, toys, games, puzzles and gewgaws so they'd have comfort in the afterlife.
There are no humans or anybody else there to give them cultural context or to tell them that looting the dead is icky.
You tell me how long it is until the Catacombs of the Innocents are stripped to the bare walls and contain nothing but a bunch of ancient children's bones and nothing else.
10 days?