Help me build a Kender without kender hate!


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Contributor

KenderKin wrote:

Yep they take things and can not help themselves, but not everything is interesting enough to take!

I never said they were not thieves are you willing to admit they will take anything, but not everything?

Do we ignore other parts such as boredom in this interpretation for example a kender will not room 1,000's of nails to get each thing, it is too boring to hold his attention that long, now if enough kender go through there then yes it will be stripped bare......

What is "interesting" enough to take is spelled out pretty clearly in the old Dragon magazine article:

Dragon 101 wrote:
Faced with a choice between a 2000 gp diamond and a huge, glittering chunk of purple glass, 90 kender out of 100 will take the glass. (The rest will take both but will get rid of the diamond first.)

Basically it's a magpie imperative. Anything glittery or shiny is "interesting," and hence all jewelry, coinage, and even the gold teeth in a skull would be "interesting" and worthy of being pried up and put in a kender's pockets.

Also, the business about looting dead civilizations, including the graveyards? Totally canon. Look:

Dragon 101 wrote:
Kendermore is only a short distance from the remains of an old human city-state called The Ruins by the kender who explore it in droves. It is said that finding artifacts in The Ruins is easy, but leaving with them is impossible because of the local kender.


Oh look another clear statement

"Faced with a choice between a 2000 gp diamond and a huge, glittering chunk of purple glass, 90 kender out of 100 will take the glass. (The rest will take both but will get rid of the diamond first.)"

KAW says:
Basically it's a magpie imperative. Anything glittery or shiny is "interesting," and hence all jewelry, coinage, and even the gold teeth in a skull would be "interesting" and worthy of being pried up and put in a kender's pockets.

It says they will take one or both items out of the two items, it still does not say anything glittery or shiny is interesting, you are reading into it too much. Dictating what is interesting is boring....

Also dead wrong on the gold teeth thing A kender would take the whole skull (if he thought it was interesting!)

I imagine not all kender would agree on what is interesting like the loaf of bread that looks like TOZ


houstonderek wrote:
KenderKin wrote:
Yep they take things and can not help themselves, but not everything is interesting enough to take!

Here's the problem. If the kender player magically decides that nothing that'll piss off the other players is interesting enough to "handle", the player is meta-gaming.

If they decide nothing that'll get the party run out of town on a rail is "interesting" enough to "handle", the player is meta-gaming.

If they decide that the MOST INTERESTING TOMB IN THE MULTIVERSE isn't terribly interesting (because, you know, there's a taboo that anyone touching anything in it will be immediately put to death), the player is meta-gaming.

Kender just do not work as a PC race without a TON of meta-gaming. And, frankly, since the only reason to play a kender is to BE a kender, it goes against what kender ARE, so playing one is more or less pointless.

Just play a wiseass halfling with sticky fingers and a functioning brain. It's easier all around, with a whole lot less mental acrobatics to make it work in a cooperative party dynamic.

Who would do that! ;)

Liberty's Edge

KenderKin wrote:
houstonderek wrote:
KenderKin wrote:
Yep they take things and can not help themselves, but not everything is interesting enough to take!

Here's the problem. If the kender player magically decides that nothing that'll piss off the other players is interesting enough to "handle", the player is meta-gaming.

If they decide nothing that'll get the party run out of town on a rail is "interesting" enough to "handle", the player is meta-gaming.

If they decide that the MOST INTERESTING TOMB IN THE MULTIVERSE isn't terribly interesting (because, you know, there's a taboo that anyone touching anything in it will be immediately put to death), the player is meta-gaming.

Kender just do not work as a PC race without a TON of meta-gaming. And, frankly, since the only reason to play a kender is to BE a kender, it goes against what kender ARE, so playing one is more or less pointless.

Just play a wiseass halfling with sticky fingers and a functioning brain. It's easier all around, with a whole lot less mental acrobatics to make it work in a cooperative party dynamic.

Who would do that! ;)

I haven't the faintest...

;-)

Contributor

KenderKin wrote:

Oh look another clear statement

"Faced with a choice between a 2000 gp diamond and a huge, glittering chunk of purple glass, 90 kender out of 100 will take the glass. (The rest will take both but will get rid of the diamond first.)"

KAW says:
Basically it's a magpie imperative. Anything glittery or shiny is "interesting," and hence all jewelry, coinage, and even the gold teeth in a skull would be "interesting" and worthy of being pried up and put in a kender's pockets.

It says they will take one or both items out of the two items, it still does not say anything glittery or shiny is interesting, you are reading into it too much. Dictating what is interesting is boring....

Also dead wrong on the gold teeth thing A kender would take the whole skull (if he thought it was interesting!)

I imagine not all kender would agree on what is interesting like the loaf of bread that looks like TOZ

No, dictating what is interesting is GMing, as is interpreting what players say.

The write-up very clearly says that the kender will value the glittery chunk of purple glass more than the diamond. Why? The obvious conclusion is because it's more sparkly, shiny and glittery than the diamond.

It also says that everything in an enemy stronghold is fair game, specifically:

Dragon 101 wrote:
If adventuring, a kender will regard anything found in an enemy stronghold as fair game for picking up, as such items are marvelous curios and might prove useful later on.

Ergo, "potentially useful" also goes on the list of "interesting."

Players of course have some input on what is "interesting," but only insomuch as they tell me what it is they are looking for. For example, if a gnome player collects and presses wildflowers, and says he's keeping an eye out for anything rare that he doesn't have in his collection, especially anything which would impress the Royal Society and be suitable for a monograph, and I say he spots a yellow musk creeper in full bloom, and what's more this yellow musk creeper is evidently a rare sport with crimson and purple edging along the deadly bloom, it's bad roleplaying for him to say, "Oh, that's not interesting at all! The Royal Society wouldn't care a whit! I have no interest in adding the blossom of a deadly zombie-making yellow musk creeper to my pressed wildflower collection, especially one that isn't even completely yellow!"

Yes, the player may be too low level to deal with a yellow musk creeper. Yes, the party may still not have forgiven him for that time they had to rescue him when he tried to press a tendriculous. That doesn't change the fact that he would want that damned blossom for his wildflower collection and would want it as intact as possible. He might try to get the druid to do Charm Plant. He might threaten the wizard with death if he used a Fireball or anything that might damage the bloom. The party might have to tie him up and walk off with him to keep him from messing with a dangerous monster just so he can get another flower for his "collection." Or he might realize the risk is too perilous and have to tearfully make do with taking a naturalistic watercolor of the rare bloom he spotted and describe that to the Royal Society and hope they believe him.

If a kender player says he's looking for "interesting" things, I as GM get to say what is "interesting," which I interpret to mean eye-catching, shiny, sparkly, curious, rare, pretty, unique, quirky, whimsical, potentially useful, or just plain odd. If the player has mentioned a specific class of items which he's personally interested in (like the gnome with the rare wildflowers he doesn't have in his collection), I'll try to focus on those.

Yes, "interesting" is a subjective judgement, but it's my place as GM to make that judgement. I decide what is rare, curious, or just plain eye-catching.


Here is my take :)

KENDER

Kender are somewhat of an enigma. They came after the other races and are neither Dwarf nor Gnome. They seem to be a combination of teenager and 6 year old, and they always have a heart of gold. While they are frustrating its hard to stay mad at the little people because they are always happy and always trying their best to be helpful. They always have a story about their adventures or about their ``Great Uncle Trapspinger`` who seems to be a mythical figure that everyone is related to.

Kender tend to be Neutral with Good and Chaotic tendencies but can be any Neutral or Good alignments. If they become evil for any reason such as a helm of opposition alignment they immediately become catatonic until the situation is remedied as with a remove curse.

Kender are a race of childlike creatures that resemble wizened half elven children. Their hare ranges from Blond and Brown to black. Their eyes from blues and greens to browns. Their skins fair to tans.

Kender have high pitched voices that would make great quire voices, but otherwise can be grating when they ask to many questions. They would make excellent Bards with singing, dancing, instruments and oratory. Though almost any class they excel at. Some have been known to be Paladins or even Wizards, though its hard for them to be Wizards because of the concentration factor. And even their Paladins are kleptomaniacs.
Its just not their fault, they cant help it they don’t even know they are doing it.

Kender adventure because of a wanderlust that hits as soon as they are a teenager. They just have to see what’s over the hill or around the bend. And their intense curiosity wont let them be, they just have to see what’s in the box or behind the door or in someone pocket. They tend to ask lots of questions too as they want to know everything and tend to talk at the most inopportune moments. “I remember when we were trying to hide like this and someone kept talking and we couldn’t hide because he kept talking and…”

Kender have no sense of property, and in their communities everything belongs to the community. People wander into each others houses and borrow what they need. A pot hear, a rolling pin there. A bit of fishing line when someone wants to go fishing. If you had it and now you don’t, well that’s ok because your neighbour probably has it and you can just go and get it back.`

Kender are natural kleptomaniacs, which means that they take things without even knowing it. That means that they wont always grab the gold or jewels, they will take what ever is there. A book, a shiny rock, a feather, a paperclip. And they are like a raven or magpie, they get attracted to interesting things, a shinny rock is just as interesting as a shinny diamond. Or a pretty feather is just as wonderful as a colourful bead, or a sharp throwing knife. Now this does not mean they wont sneak in someplace and purposefully steal a priceless object, but they are just as likely to steal anything that fancies them on a day to day basis thinking they are just borrowing it. Or when they aren’t paying attention and their kleptomania is active take something unawares it could be anything, randomly. IE I am going to steal the evil Wizards magic item so he can`t use it agains my village. I am going to borrow the fighters boot to catch fish. Oh what`s this stuff in my pockets that he gives back to the Wizard that was the Wizards in the first place, that he didn`t know he even took.

Kender
-2 ST, +2 DX, -2 WIS, Base Speed 30,
Medium: Height 4 ft. Kender are medium and creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Stealthy: Kender receive a +4 racial bonus to Stealth checks.
Keen Senses: Kender receive a +2 bonus on Perception checks.
Sure Footed: Kender receive a +2 racial bonus on Acrobatics and Climb checks.
Racial Skills: Picking Pockets, and Disable Device are always class skills.
Kender Luck: +1 Saving Throws,
Fearless: Immune to fear
They automatically get the bonus feats: Taunt, and Well-Prepared.
Weapon Familiarity: they are proficient in Hoopak (Staff Sling) and Chapak (Hand Axe, blowgun) and anything with the word Kender in it.

The Fighter wakes up and starts to put one his boots, and realizes there is only one. He turns and growls “Hey where is my boot?” The Kender cleaning fish for breakfast looks up and says in his high pitched voice. “Right hear, I was using it to catch fish.” “Catch Fish!” The fighter said flummoxed. “Yes, it was the biggest and darkest thing I could find.” “See how many I have caught.” He said with an innocent smile. The large man looked over, surprised to see so many fish at the little Kenders side. As the Kender was cleaning the Rogue walked past and grabbed the very sharp knife away from the Kender and without breaking stride said. “You get used to it.” The Fighter shaking his head quickly grabbed the wet boot and making sure the boot was empty and clean put it on.

After breakfast the Kender started to wander about camp. He spied the Wizard reading his spellbook and thought that looked interesting. As he came up to the Wizard he asked. “What are you doing?” Now the Wizard had long since given up saying things like words, and other things to try and get the Kender to go away, and he knew what Kender were like. “Say, can I ask you something?” He said. “Um, sure, what?” The inquisitive Kender replied. “I was wondering what you had in your pockets?” “Really!” Said the excited little fellow. “Why yes, its been bugging me all morning trying to guess.” “Ooh, I’ll show you.” He started to pull out all sorts of things from bits of string and feathers, to shiny rocks, some copper and silver pieces, a shiny gem, a slingshot. Then the Wizard saw something that looked familiar. “What’s that?” He said. “I am not sure, I find all sorts of stuff.” “Hmm, can I have a look?” “Sure.” He looked at some powdered diamond, some henbane, and various other spell components he had just yesterday. “Can I have this?” “Sure, I don’t need it.” Replied the little fellow. He pocketed his things and pulled out a shiny marble. “Here, take this, I don’t need it.” “Wow, this is wonderful.” The Kender jumped up and wandered off with the new treasure completely enthralled. The Wizard smiled having a pocket full of such things.
The Ranger was sharpening arrowheads when he spied the Kender wandering his way. He palmed most of the sharp heads but one, and most of the dull heads and placed them under his legs. He left a few dull and some beyond repair on a rock beside him and continued to sharpen as the Kender strolled up. “Oh hi, I can sharpen some for you.” And with that he took out his stone and began to sharpen on of the arrow heads that looked beyond repair. The Ranger was always amazed at how the little Kender could sharpen things, he could do an amazing business as a sharpener if he could keep from being distracted. “Say, when are we leaving?” “Soon.” The Ranger replied. The Kender started to ask all sorts of questions in his hi pitched voice, about how the birds sang, and if they would see wolves, and if the Ranger had a wife at home and, and. The Ranger tried to reply but the next question came faster than he could answer the last. Soon the Kender got interested in something else and left, leaving an amazingly sharp arrowhead on the log. The Ranger noticed that a few other heads were missing. When he brought out the other arrowheads from under his legs he noticed a few of them were gone too. He smiled, oh well, he thought, they will turn up.


Sigurd Torgarsson wrote:
Here is my take :)

That is utterly obscene. If I were playing in that game, I would quit in a heartbeat as it's absolutely clear the DM is pandering to the kender (or more than likely, the kender is a DMPC).

No real game would ever work like that.


Na, but thats what the Dragonlance novels were like :)

Contributor

Umbral Reaver wrote:
Sigurd Torgarsson wrote:
Here is my take :)

That is utterly obscene. If I were playing in that game, I would quit in a heartbeat as it's absolutely clear the DM is pandering to the kender (or more than likely, the kender is a DMPC).

No real game would ever work like that.

The only caveat I can say is that the same as the kender only believes what he wants to believe about where he got stuff, the realistic script with the fighter, wizard and ranger yelling, cursing, and swearing at the kender gets parsed through the kender's delusions until it reads as the saccharine scene with the infinitely patient and saintly childcare workers we read about. The kender has no explanation for where the bootheel-shaped bruise on his forehead comes from, why his eyebrows are mysteriously burned off, or why there are a number of arrow-shaped holes in his leg. Everyone loves kender, so there's no explanation for how any of these things could be.

Alternately, the kender got the fighter, the wizard and the ranger stoned on high grade opiates.


I can't believe this is still running.
1. That Kender steal from party members and rob banks is RAWBP. That's Rules As Written Before Pathfinder.
2. If a pixie takes something from a Kender, and the Kender calls the Pixie a thief, then anyone who plays a Kender, GM or player, is a hypocrite by RAWBP.

Dark Archive

Umbral Reaver wrote:
Sigurd Torgarsson wrote:
Here is my take :)

That is utterly obscene. If I were playing in that game, I would quit in a heartbeat as it's absolutely clear the DM is pandering to the kender (or more than likely, the kender is a DMPC).

No real game would ever work like that.

Could you elaborate? As Shizvestus pointed out, that seemed like an accurate portrayal, even if the party was more understanding than normal. Sorry to thread necro, but I'm really confused where the pandering was. I'll grant the focus did seem to be on the kender, but as long as the whole game didn't spotlight him, I don't see the issue.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Hmm. Lot of thread rez going on lately.


"The necromancer Union has been very busy of late. But Kender of the tastiest of the insane evil races, much better then goblins"


Some people hate kender and accuse playing a kender well = meta-gaming.

They also take the description seriously rather than written very tongue in cheek style...

And refuse to answer the obvious contradictions in the kender description. The fact is kender are a contradiction and can be viewed as accidental or anti heroes.

The thread title asked those people who hate to stay away, yet they came in droves to steal as thieves do, steal the fun, steal the love, leaving only hate in their wake... ;)

Try not to read this post too seriously or you will miss the point! ;)

Shadow Lodge

HAET.


"Kender indeed do have many things in common with Goblins, if they ate babies,song and loved fire just a bit more they would be goblins...Humm maybe they are the ancestors of Goblins. I shall ponder this"

Scarab Sages

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KenderKin wrote:
The thread title asked those people who hate to stay away, yet they came in droves to steal as thieves do, steal the fun, steal the love, leaving only hate in their wake... ;)

We're not stealing your fun.

We're 'handling' it.


Snorter wrote:
KenderKin wrote:
The thread title asked those people who hate to stay away, yet they came in droves to steal as thieves do, steal the fun, steal the love, leaving only hate in their wake... ;)

We're not stealing your fun.

We're 'handling' it.

Clearly he is just trying to destroy our fun as we are just playing in character.

Dark Archive

We don't hate kender; we hate the people who think it is cute to steal from party members. All in the name of "roleplaying".

Our true hate is for gully dwarves.


Thalin wrote:

We don't hate kender; we hate the people who think it is cute to steal from party members. All in the name of "roleplaying".

\

Speak for yourself, the way the race is made you must steal and from everyone then lie and believe the lie. This is not an option. So they are a bad race and if not for Gm fiat they would be treated much like goblins. Sure they wan't eat you, or may not burn the farm down, but they will steal anything and everything no tied down, even items you need to make a living, family heirlooms and holy relics.

Name one common race that would treat people of their own race who acted like that as anything but insane vermin, that need lock up, banished or killed.

The Exchange

Due to a tragic accident in his youth, young Sneakythief Lame-excuse was never able to join in his village's joyous pastimes of asking stupid questions, stealing everything, and issuing Bambi-eyed denials of having ever stolen anything. Little S.T. L.E. suffered, you see, from a terrible curse that made his immune system so feeble that only a natural 20 could save him from death on a daily basis.

And so was born the most improbable adventurer of all time: Kender-in-a-Plastic-Bubble.

There y'go. A perfectly playable character - at least, by comparison with all other kender. I strongly suspect that the folks who like kender have never played in a party with another kender, or they'd soon come over to the Dark Side.
What I'm trying to say is, "kender hate" is not some kind of irrational mental disorder - it's a result of the way players play kender characters.

(This inspiring fable brought to you by EVIL: A Growth Industry. "We're always hiring!")


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-possession

«Ownership increases the frequency of consensus over disagreement. Using social protocols, ownership establishes one or a group of entities' permanent priority of access to something. Unless the owner relinquishes this right, this established priority stands regardless of empirical phenomena.

A dilemma arises when an entity enters into the sphere of a consensus with no prior knowledge of the agreement.»

«Non-possession is another concept which can resolve this dilemma. If claims always match empirical reality, then there is no conflict. Eliminating exclusion, claims to priority of access will always be based on empirical reality.»

«Non-possession denies the exclusive access of an entity by another entity.

To paraphrase: non-possession says that no entity has the right to exclusive access to another entity, either by social agreement, or de facto exclusive access.»

«Non-stealing is the practice of not breaching an entity's entitlement of or sense of entitlement toward something.

Theft has to do with breaching ownership: both possession and sense of entitlement. Non-possession only challenges the idea of possession, not entitlement.»

Long post to get to the following point: eastern religions have much in common with kenders' sense of possession and it can be understood that way:
-There is no such thing as exclusive possession.
-Therefore theft is impossible.
-There are things that one is entitled to (ex: clothes currently wearing, food you're about to eat, stuff with your name on it).
-Entitlement depends on your emotions towards something.
-There is no breach of entitlement if you only take stuff that is kept "in case"; especially if you hand it back when said case happens.
-And there is no possession.


My take to kender using point buy race system (with the philosophical implications of non-possession in mind, not the making of a super-thief...):

Kender
Standard Race: 10 points

Type: Humanoid (halfling) +0
Size: Small +0
Speed: Normal +0
Abilities: Weakness Modifiers (+2DEX -4WIS +2CHA) -1
Languages: Standard Array +1
Racial Abilities:
Fearless +1
Fortunate +4
Weapon Familiarity +1
Gift of Tongues +2
Integrated +1
Low-Light Vision +1

Total RP: 10


SinTheMoon wrote:

My take to kender using point buy race system (with the philosophical implications of non-possession in mind, not the making of a super-thief...):

And there lays the issue, kender can not act other then they are. They steal or they die. They are the creation of a mistake, an artifact. They are born insane and diffusional. They can't not steal just as you can must breath.

Dark Archive

Lincoln Hills wrote:
What I'm trying to say is, "kender hate" is not some kind of irrational mental disorder - it's a result of the way players play kender characters.

So by your own admission the problem lies with a subset of players who use kender handling as an excuse to be jerks.

Shadow Lodge

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seekerofshadowlight wrote:
And there lays the issue, kender can not act other then they are. They steal or they die. They are the creation of a mistake, an artifact. They are born insane and diffusional. They can't not steal just as you can must breath.

Much like dwarves must be disrespectful towards other races and gnomes must wear funny hats.

Shadow Lodge

We have a name for kender who don't steal.

Halfling.

Dark Archive

seekerofshadowlight wrote:
And there lays the issue, kender can not act other then they are. They steal or they die. They are the creation of a mistake, an artifact. They are born insane and diffusional. They can't not steal just as you can must breath.

I think that's one small facet of the race's personality taken to an extreme. Personally, it was also one I down-played with kender PCs. Their insatiable curiosity and irrepressible cheer have always been far more important than their propensity to mistakenly pocket other people's possessions. I also always made a point to be very obvious about pocketing the item and left it up to the other players or the GM to determine if it was noticed or not.

To say that a kender must steal to live, is paramount to saying that a half-orc must be uncivilized to live, or that an elf must be haughty to live, or a dwarf must be gruff and dislike magic to live.

As I stated above, the players who use kenders as an excuse for taking actions against the rest of their party are no better than the ones who use any other race/class/alignment as an excuse to behave in a way that deprives the other players of their fun.

Dark Archive

So if you want to play a socially adjusted, non-cutesy non-klepto kender, play a Halfling and tie your hair a topknot. Problem solved; halflings look like kender instead of hobbits these days anyway.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
SinTheMoon wrote:

My take to kender using point buy race system (with the philosophical implications of non-possession in mind, not the making of a super-thief...):

And there lays the issue, kender can not act other then they are. They steal or they die. They are the creation of a mistake, an artifact. They are born insane and diffusional. They can't not steal just as you can must breath.

Read my previous post. Kenders CAN'T steal. They don't recognize possession. They still can be dicks if they take something someone is "entitled" to, and that's alignment-dependant, not race-dependant.


Kthulhu wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
And there lays the issue, kender can not act other then they are. They steal or they die. They are the creation of a mistake, an artifact. They are born insane and diffusional. They can't not steal just as you can must breath.
Much like dwarves must be disrespectful towards other races and gnomes must wear funny hats.

No, like GNomes have are fey, and drwaves see in the dark and are short.It is a part of the race, they can't help but take things then they make up stories they believe are true.

It is not learned behavior.It is part of the races innate make up, so sayith everything written on the race and the very way the race was created.


SinTheMoon wrote:

Read my previous post. Kenders CAN'T steal.

They not only can, they do steal and believe what ever lie they tell as the truth. Most people can learn to understand what stealing is..a kender can't as they never recall stealing anything. They believe what ever story they tell about where they "found" an object.

This is not something that can be unlearned with the race as written. They simply never recall taking anything. Even if caught in the act, they lie without thinking and believe the lie.

They call it borrowing or finding things, everyone else calls it stealing.

Dark Archive

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

They not only can, they do steal and believe what ever lie they tell as the truth. Most people can learn to understand what stealing is..a kender can't as they never recall stealing anything. They believe what ever story they tell about where they "found" an object.

This is not something that can be unlearned with the race as written. They simply never recall taking anything. Even if caught in the act, they lie without thinking and believe the lie.

They call it borrowing or finding things, everyone else calls it stealing.

That is one way to look at it, and perhaps it has been described that way, but it's better to look at it from the perspective of that they have no concept of ownership and don't understand attempts to explain it. They understand possession, as in if you have something in your hand, you possess it, but that's as far as it goes. Once something leaves your possession, it is free for anyone to pick it up.

As far as taking things from someone's possessions, they are honestly just picking it up to admire it. Their nature however makes them prone to forget to return it where they found it.

Their "lies" as you keep calling them, are either the truth as they best remember it, or a creative story for if they don't remember. They aren't lying, but attempting to make more interesting by developing a rich and entertaining explanation for events they don't recall. Now, being that they are semi-aware of their own forgetful nature, they then assume that this story they have developed must be the truth as they have no better explanation for what occurred.


NO they are as written a race of disillusioned insane klepo's They take anything they want, often without thinking about it and then make up stories they believe with heart and soul...Funny they never forget the lies they make up about something, only where they "found it" and who they stole it from.

The only time they do not do this is when a player tries to not "steal from the party or do something that would get them killed. Things a kender as written just do not do or think about.

What we have to go on is what is written, which often ( on almost every time) flies in the face of what kenders supports think it means.

Dark Archive

seekerofshadowlight wrote:
What we have to go on is what is written, which often ( on almost every time) flies in the face of what kenders supports think it means.

I guess we are reading different books then, because I have never gotten the impression you have about the nature of kender. Different interpretations of the material I guess.

Dragonlance Campaign Setting wrote:

The unquenchable curiosity of kender drives them to investigate everything - including other people's personal possessions. Kender appropriate absolutely anything that catches their eye. Physical boundaries or notions of privacy are both alien concepts to them, while the monetary value of an object means nothing to them. They are as likely to be more captivated by the feather of a goat-sucker bird as by a sapphire. Kender are never happier than when their hands in the pockets, pouches or backpacks of those around them.

Kender do not consider such appropriation to be thievery as others understand it (kenders are as contemptuous of thieves as the next person). Kender term this "handling" or "borrowing" because they firmly intend to return what they pilfer to the proper owner. It's just that with so many exciting and wonderful things going on in their lives, they forget to give things back. Kender are at best bemused and at worst outraged at being accused of theft or pick-pocketing. Kenders always give perfectly reasonable explanations for just about every accusation leveled at them.

(excuse list excised for brevity)

Handling is a natural extension of a kender's day-to-day life. The distinction between the handling of a kender and the skullduggery of the theif is a subtle and important one. Unfortunately, only kender themselves truly comprehend it.

Where in there is the disillusionment or the insanity? Even the word kleptomania does not apply to them, as a klepto is aware of his intent to steal, but compelled to do so regardless.

Can I ask, have you read the novels, or just the gaming write ups?


CrackedOzy wrote:

Can I ask, have you read the novels, or just the...

Both, the gaming write up (1e) I posted in this very thread, that is what says they do just what I stated. As written they are just as I said,and without GM fiat, they are a menace to all civilized races.

Dark Archive

seekerofshadowlight wrote:
CrackedOzy wrote:

Can I ask, have you read the novels, or just the...

Both, the gaming write up (1e) I posted in this very thread, that is what says they do just what I stated. As written they are just as I said,and without GM fiat, they are a menace to all civilized races.

So your argument is based on an outdated description of the race? Do you still restrict your character's classes due to race as well? Or award XP based on how much treasure you have accumulated?


CrackedOzy wrote:


So your argument is based on an outdated description of the race? Do you still restrict your character's classes due to race as well? Or award XP based on how much treasure you have accumulated?

No, its almost word for word the same. I used the 1e write up as someone claimed it wasn't written in that manor in 1e so must have been changed. That was incorrect. That is how the race was written, that is how the race is.

You like many supporters are not using the race the game is presenting but a homebrew race using some of the same themes. Which is fine as long as you know that is what you are doing.

However the race as written is all the things I have said. They steal anything and everything from shiny rocks to a holy relic to coins a a dead child's face, they lie, they believe that lie.

The people that hate kender hate them for what they are. The people that love them do so because they like to be dicks or like the idea of what the race could have been.

Dark Archive

I'm gonna have to continue to disagree, you read the kender write up and come to conclusion X, where as I read it and come to conclusion Y. Neither of us can seem to agree on what is said above and what was intended with the race. You read it and see a race designed to be a menace and an annoyance. I read it and see a lovable race designed for curiosity and exploration.

I'd say this is a text-book case of agree to disagree, but I doubt it will be left at that.

Dark Archive

No, you read the very well-written Dragonlance books, saw Tasselhoff Burfoot (the primary comedy relief for the group) and thought "oh, my group would love the antics of a kleptomaniac loving race". But that's not how it plays out.

In play, it is having a thief continually stealing from you. And unless you want to be like the residence of the Dragonlance world and say "oh, those silly guys can't help it", you do something about the mass thefts, whether or not they think of them as thefts.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Personally, I love killing Kender, always justified mind you. Granted, my 'justification' might be considered extreme, but all non-Kender players at the table cheered me on. That said, one of the BEST RPers I've played with ran a Kender in a Friday evening game and a seriously hard-core Paladin in a Sunday afternoon game for at least a year, rockin' at both!

Dark Archive

Gosh, I just love being told that not only are my opinions wrong but then have it explained to me why I don't hate a fictional race. Actually I was involved in playing in a Dragonlance game, long before I read the books. But thanks for telling me otherwise.

I've already pointed out that the handling isn't kleptomania, and that it is one aspect of their personalities that happens to get abused by players who look for any excuse to get away with their anti-social behavior. I've tried to offer alternate ways to interpret the material, but it seems obvious that I'm not going to get any better of a response than "NO, YOU ARE WRONG AND KENDERS ARE BAD AND ANYONE WHO PLAYS ONE IS A JERK AND SHOULD BE FLOGGED!"

Not that you'll care, but I wont be back to this thread. Silly me, when I read the OP's title request for haters to stay out, I actually thought they might.


But you can't argue with hate....

In the dragonlance books with all of his friends how many of the friends items ended up on the kender?

How many items were actually taken?

Rare? Then that would be the way one would be played!

But no you are wrong!

kender would leave their starving friends, naked in a snow storm because they have no choice!


Not just hate, but with people who are using the race write up as fact, ya know in place of rewriting it to it works like you guys are doing :)

The Exchange

Also remember that they are delusional and do things like try to turn undead with the bent soup spoon they nabbed earlier that they swear is their uncles holy relic.

Contributor

KenderKin wrote:

But you can't argue with hate....

In the dragonlance books with all of his friends how many of the friends items ended up on the kender?

How many items were actually taken?

Rare? Then that would be the way one would be played!

But no you are wrong!

kender would leave their starving friends, naked in a snow storm because they have no choice!

Care to give the numbers and page citations? Because not everyone has read all the novels. Some people have only written the race write-ups in the game books and seen the results in various games.

Fortunately, as mentioned before, Kender are product identity for Dragonlance so will never show up in Golarion.

In Dragonlance? I'm certain they can be cute and charming, and any character can be engaging if written properly. That said, a novel and a game are different art forms and a character who is supremely entertaining in a novel can be decidedly less so in a game.

There is also something called suspension of disbelief.

To give an example, the character Fargo on Eureka is more than a little kender-like in that he's small, cute, charming, makes plaintive eyes, and has an unfortunate compulsion to always press the wrong button. He works in the show because he's also a genius and fixes almost as many problems as he causes.

In reality? No one would want to associate with the guy, and he'd be canned immediately for causing industrial accidents, and probably end up in jail.

In a game? Unless the GM was continually metagaming to make his antics non-fatal for the party, most sane parties would arrange to ditch him at the next town if not sooner.


One thing that seems to be missed fairly frequently is this:

A good novel is not automatically a good game. A party in a book works well for reasons that do not and never will apply to a party of characters with actual players.

A party in a book are written by one person (excepting collaborations) and the writer chooses how each member of the party acts and reacts. No feelings are hurt if one character is treated poorly by the others or vice versa.

This does not apply in a group of players. The kind of hideous abuse that might be fine for a story is very bad for a game party.

Do not use examples of stories such as the Dragonlance ones as examples of parties that work well. Even if they might have been based on an actual adventuring party, the tales in the books are not written as such. You don't get to see the arguments between the players. You don't get to see the hurt expressions. That's all behind the scenes, if it happened.

As it's impossible to say this enough:

The kender are bad and you should feel bad.

Grand Lodge

I have said this before, and possibly on this thread. I have seen a kender played where he was not annoying... in fact, he was my favorite of the PCs. (And he wasn't my character!)

It's possible. People just have to get past the preconceptions... :)


Aeshuura wrote:

I have said this before, and possibly on this thread. I have seen a kender played where he was not annoying... in fact, he was my favorite of the PCs. (And he wasn't my character!)

It's possible. People just have to get past the preconceptions... :)

Was he able to be distinguished from a halfling?

Shadow Lodge

Aeshuura wrote:
It's possible. People just have to get past the preconceptions... :)

Take away those preconceptions and all you have left is a halfling.

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