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In the setting material for Golarion that is? I'm just looking for anything to pull details from to tie some stuff together.
Anything from someone explored in detail(I can't think of any besides Tymon, and apparently he doesn't really count) to just a mention in a timeline somewhere. I'll take anything I can get so long as they're good or at least solidly not evil. Either from solid history or disputed legends, really.
It doesn't even have to be an adventuring type. Just one famous, positive rolemodel would be a boon.
Thanks!
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I think you might find a few local half-orc role models, but certainly a rarity.
But Orcs ? Not really. They're roving, raging, raping, ravaging, rendig, rowdy killer machines. Actually, I think that leaving out "good drow, good orcs, good demons" shtick of WotC was a good move on Paizo's part. Monsters are to be monsters, after all.
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Have we gotten a backstory for Imrijka, the iconic Inquisitor? Unless she's a rampaging richard like Alain, or a closet serial killer like Damiel, she might be a non-evil sort.
I hope. I halfway dread seeing her bio after the disheartening I've had on various matters this week.
Even if she does turn out well though, I can't really refer to her as an in-setting character... :( Still, here's hoping she does turn out alright.
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Have we gotten a backstory for Imrijka, the iconic Inquisitor? Unless she's a rampaging richard like Alain, or a closet serial killer like Damiel, she might be a non-evil sort.
I thought I read once that she's Lawful Good. I don't think everyone's trying to say heroic orcs and half-orcs are"badwrongfun", just that there aren't a lot of officially published examples of them from Golarion. It's something you might need to develop yourself. I imagine you could have Low Templar Sergeants with a story or two worth telling.
Years ago, I had a mercenary company in a home game that was all Lawful Good and Lawful Neutral orcs, led by an ex-paladin trying to atone. In my home campaign there's a popular tavern owner who's a half-orc, and anyone with a little local knowledge will tell you that he's the best cook in town. A popular gladiator could be a half-orc and have the support of the under classes. Any concept with a few rough edges makes a good half-orc. They certainly don't need to be evil.
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It's something you might need to develop yourself.
That's pretty much what I'm working on now, since there's little to no official support for what I'm looking for. I'm just trying to find what few(if any...) examples of half-orc heroes already exist in canon just to help this project mesh better with official material, to make it more appealing to other players and GMs who might be hesitant to take someone else's homebrew to plug into their own game.
Something to help make this look like a natural fit for the setting rather than sticking out like a sore thumb... ;) Just trying to provide some support for people that want to play a certain flavor of orc or half-orc(and to make it decent enough that a GM would let me play these concepts in a Golarion game as well). Basically shooting for it to enable players to play characters of those races with as happy or as gritty a background as they like, without anyone being able to accuse them of Driz'zt "Lone Rebel Against His Own Evil Kin" Syndrome and presenting some actual hope for the two races as well, along with some new cultures that retain their orcishness without requiring the evil.
Unfortunately specific half-orcs(let alone orcs) that have made good and could stand as an example to others are hard to find in Golarion material.
I havn't found any, and I love Half Orc characters...
Though aparently in Urglin there are both outcast Shoanti and halfbreeds...
Gorum is rumored to be a half-orc god. He's not evil.
That's right.... +1
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Oh, Mikaze, how I love your badwrongfun... but orcs are, as a species, Chaotic Evil.
It's going to be a push to find any core stuff with good orcs. They will be Drizzt's as they must have rejected their people's society.
The big characters across the whole of Golarion are all either human or monstrous. There are very few 'big deal' characters who are elf, dwarf, gnome, halfling or half-orc in Golarion so far.
And all of the big super-powerful characters are male, which is... interesting.
Elf queen and Baba Yaga may be exceptions to your rule on that. But neither here nor there.
It is interesting that anytime anyone has played a half-orc in one of my games, they have been Good aligned. They also were reared by thier human parent. For my feelings, any human parent that would rear a child of partial orc blood had to have alot of good in them not to perform post-natal abortion. Just my prejudice, I guess.
Greg
I remember the good ol' days when Orcs were Lawful Evil... back in First and Seccond Edition ;) The foot soldiers of every evil Wizard and King in the Land... Why you couldn't carve out your own evil empire without having an army of Orcs at your beck and call... They were sentries, bodyguards, town watch, they guarded every door. Dragons had them, Giants had them, Everybody had them... :)
I remember the good ol' days when Orcs were Lawful Evil... back in First and Seccond Edition ;) The foot soldiers of every evil Wizard and King in the Land... Why you couldn't carve out your own evil empire without having an army of Orcs at your beck and call... They were sentries, bodyguards, town watch, they guarded every door. Dragons had them, Giants had them, Everybody had them... :)
Semi-off topic....well really off topic I guess.
Anyway, you are very correct. Orcs abounded everywhere in DnD. Seems to me they were my second encounter on my first game. Giant centipede was my first. Never encountered a giant centipede since.
Greg
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Basically shooting for it to enable players to play characters of those races with as happy or as gritty a background as they like, without anyone being able to accuse them of Driz'zt "Lone Rebel Against His Own Evil Kin" Syndrome and presenting some actual hope for the two races as well, along with some new cultures that retain their orcishness without requiring the evil.
Unfortunately specific half-orcs(let alone orcs) that have made good and could stand as an example to others are hard to find in Golarion material.
Without any official references (and I'm not finding them either),it might be better to use them as casual NPCs rather than heroes. The innkeeper who serves a mean barbecue, a sergeant of the city watch, and the stuck-up pretty girl's homely but sweet best friend could all be half-orcs.
If you want to introduce a new culture you might be able to use your players' preconceptions in your favor. Say you have a peaceful tribe of orcs in danger of extermination. Use an NPC orc from this tribe with a reversed Drizzt Syndrome. He feels the tribe has gone soft, and wants to incite some enemies to attack them, to remind them of their "true" nature. The PCs could try to stop him, or fall for it and lead the misguided attack against them.
Oh, damn, it looks like I've started brainstorming ideas for my own game here, too. Regardless, if you think these are good ideas, please give them a try.
Elf queen and Baba Yaga may be exceptions to your rule on that. But neither here nor there.Fair play, to my mind Baba Yaga is more of a demi-god but the Elf Queen is the exception which proves the rule.
Sorshen, Runelord of Lust
Alaznist, Runelord of WrathBelimarius, Runelord of Envy
Telandia Edasseril, Queen of Kyonin
Elvanna, Queen of Irrisen
Baba Yaga, Queen of Witches
Arazni, Harlot Queen of Geb
Tashana, former Queen of Irrisen, now better known by another name ;)
Ileosa, Queen of Korvosa
All off the top of my head and not counting the female deities or the drow matriarchs, and countless important npc's that aren't necessary world-shaking powers.
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Sorshen, Runelord of Lust
dead, essentially
Alaznist, Runelord of Wrath
dead, essentially
Belimarius, Runelord of Envy
dead, essentially
Telandia Edasseril, Queen of Kyonin
diplomat
Elvanna, Queen of Irrisen
puppet
Baba Yaga, Queen of Witches
I'm not including demi-gods/gods
Arazni, Harlot Queen of Geb
Under the thumb of a more powerful ib]male[/b]
Tashana, former Queen of Irrisen, now better known by another name ;)
? Your Golarion-Fu is better than mine ?
Ileosa, Queen of Korvosa
I'm playing the AP, so far she doesn't seem to be a major power on Golarion. Queen is a bit rich for a ruler of a city-state.
I'm not saying that women are not taking-names and kicking-ass in Golarion, but the big bad guys influencing the Inner Sea are:
Tap-Baphon
Nex
Geb
Razmir
...
There are some awesome goddesses in this setting but not so many female world-shaking villains. Baba Yaga is, noticeably, a heritage character, as well as a divinity. Pretty much the only folklore character put directly into the setting.
This is not a criticism or a problem with the setting, Golarion has very few world-shaking foes for the PCs to worry about (a deliberate world-building move that makes perfect sense) but the handful are men.
Not a problem, just an observation.
Every single character you mention is human, except for the elf-queen, which makes the more important point quite well.
*snip*
Every single character you mention is human, except for the elf-queen, which makes the more important point quite well.
Which is to be expected, as Golarion is deliberately designed as a human-centric setting with the other races being more flavor then focus.
Not a problem, just an observation.
Oh no, no, no, it's a problem until it's proven that it isn't!
Lets see here. Lady high muckity-mucks in Golarion. Just a few off the top of my head:
I'm out, so I'll get back to this when I've got my copy of the campaign setting handy, but others should feel free to keep this list rolling!
I'm not trying to get on your case G.E., but gender equality is a big deal in our editorial pit and the ladies of Golarion deserve all the shout outs we can give them!
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Gorum is rumored to be a half-orc god. He's not evil.
Unfortunately he's not really positive enough for what I'm shooting for, though he is still a symbol of restored pride for them. Thanks though.
Pretty much given up on this route. So much for tying it all together... The closest I can get is providing an example of where those orc paladins are coming from that were mentioned in Orcs of Golarion.
It's going to be a push to find any core stuff with good orcs. They will be Drizzt's as they must have rejected their people's society.
Nah, these are going to be folks with their own society separate from those Reaver-esque orcs in Belkzen. They're still orcs with their own ways that still unsettle other races, but they're not evil. Allows for a player to play a good orc that's actually a product of his society more than a rebel, and for half-orcs with orc/human parentage and still come from a happy family if they want.
If you want to introduce a new culture you might be able to use your players' preconceptions in your favor. Say you have a peaceful tribe of orcs in danger of extermination. Use an NPC orc from this tribe with a reversed Drizzt Syndrome. He feels the tribe has gone soft, and wants to incite some enemies to attack them, to remind them of their "true" nature. The PCs could try to stop him, or fall for it and lead the misguided attack against them.
Oh, damn, it looks like I've started brainstorming ideas for my own game here, too. Regardless, if you think these are good ideas, please give them a try.
New culture is exactly what I'm going for, and yep, there will definitely be some complications from racial tensions and people cleaving to old conceptions. Kyonin is going to be a sore point due to one event in their timeline.
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*SNIP
Empress [Spoiler Omitted] of [Spoiler Omitted] (to be revealed in an upcoming Adventure Path) *SNIP*
Can't sneak that one by us so easily. Let the wild speculation commence!
Empress [Ameiko Kaijutsu] of [Tien Xia]
Now THERE'S a plot twist.
Sure hope she survived everyone's Runelords experience...
Also hope she keeps the tats and attitude.
Just immagine a group of Barbarian Shamanistic Orcs blendid with Kelish Saranrae worshipers :) They tend to wear kilts and weild scimitars ;) Some Halforc worshiper of Saranrae saved them and taught them a better way :) They are the Blazing Sun Tribe, still mighty fierce warriors, but honorable.
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Just immagine a group of Barbarian Shamanistic Orcs blendid with Kelish Saranrae worshipers :) They tend to wear kilts and weild scimitars ;) Some Halforc worshiper of Saranrae saved them and taught them a better way :) They are the Blazing Sun Tribe, still mighty fierce warriors, but honorable.
Actually had some ideas about some crazy-zealous Sarenraen orc tribes that patrol the area around the Pit of Gormuz... *
Separate from what I'm working on now, but Sarenrae is the key to this other culture's foundation as well.
Figure she'd be the best fit, what with likely being pissed off about an entire race being held in thrall to Rovagug and his lot and being the caretaker of free will.
...one perk of being sick as sin is having time to write...
*Thinking about it, someone else had that idea some time back IIRC. Not sure if it got developed or not.
Should also mention to Set: This is actually taking one of the suggestions you made in the old non-evil orc tribe thread and running full tilt with it. I just fell in love with the idea of Nirmathas being CG orc country, combined with the relationships with Molthrune, Lastwall, and Belkzen.
Hey Mikaze shiro.kuma at hotmail com or bran ravensong on face :) if you are bored :)
Hmmm... havn't recieved anything...
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...snip...
really getting very off-topic and a bit unnecessary now:
After some debate about whether Baba Yaga is an NPC or a demi-god the final gang settled on was along the lines of Tar-Baphon, Nex, Geb and Razmir.
These seem like the very pinnacle, power-wise, of NPC in Golarion.
The reason it is even a little bit interesting is Paizo's well-documented equally opportunities approach to gender, ethnicity and sexuality in Pathfinder and on Golarion.
I think I do have a blind-spot for Baba Yaga's queen and she may well be epic-level as well.
It's a sad indictment of human society that any of this should be commented upon but part of why it is a little interesting is that I/most-of-us know almost nothing about the Pathfinder people, and there is no reason that we should. If I looked at myself I imagine I might make a world in which all of the super-villains were male and it might turn out that, once I had analysed my own subconscious, I had done so because I was slightly more comfortable making men into mass-murderers.
I find generally that when I write I am much more likely to make the villains white, educated, male and privileged. It is probably an instinct against the clumsy demonisation of others that litters our cultural history or something like that. Certainly it is part of my cultural baggage and something so heavily internalised that I find it difficult to examine clearly, like the bump on the back of my skull, I can only grope blindly for some sense of shape, ask others for advice, or set up a relay of mirrors which is inevitably distorting in its own way.
Maybe I am just reading it differently, maybe the Tar-Baphon, Nex, Geb, Razmir grouping is not one that the paizo crew would recognise. My interpretation may well be different to your own. Whether it is any less valid would open up a whole debate about what it means to present ideas to a thinking, imaginative audience.
Like I said it is... interesting.
Looking back I can see that, due to the vagaries of the interpretation and the way that internet messageboards are a breeding ground for passive/aggressive antagonism, use of that particular "... interesting" phrasing might seem to indicate criticism but it was intended to show that my thoughts upon the topic a vague, peculiar and rambling. As anyone patient enough to reach the end of this spoiler can now see.
Got it! Thanks :)
Bull is Neutral good... only a shop owner though.
Calisro Benarry seems to be true neutral,and a little closer to what you want..
Imrijka, the iconic inquisitor is listed as NG on the wiki
Gorvi the trash collector in Sandpoint is also CN
Those are the only examples I can find offhand on the wiki
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In the setting material for Golarion that is? I'm just looking for anything to pull details from to tie some stuff together.
Anything from someone explored in detail(I can't think of any besides Tymon, and apparently he doesn't really count) to just a mention in a timeline somewhere. I'll take anything I can get so long as they're good or at least solidly not evil. Either from solid history or disputed legends, really.
It doesn't even have to be an adventuring type. Just one famous, positive rolemodel would be a boon.
Thanks!
Thog, half-orc 5th level cleric of Desna. Currently, working in with freed slaves in Andora. Note a core NPC, but he was my current PCs mentor.
So thats what Bulls been doing since Night Court...
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Bull is Neutral good... only a shop owner though.
Calisro Benarry seems to be true neutral,and a little closer to what you want..
Awesome! These are both the types I was looking for, especially Calisro!(Pathfinder Venture-Captain? Hell yes that fits!) She's a bit too far flung to fit into the main thing I'm working on, but she's a perfect fit for the follow-up! Thanks!
Thanks to everyone else that mentioned their own PCs and NPCs they made. I can't really use them, but they're still really encouraging. :)
Janhelia is an elemental... we are looking for Orcs an half-Orcs... :)
There's a CG half-orc barbarian called Briga who runs The Sargava Club in Eledor