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Does the save allowed against Calm Emotions also counter the spell and ability suppression that is part of the spell:
Calm Emotions
This spell calms agitated creatures. You have no control over the affected creatures, but calm emotions can stop raging creatures from fighting or joyous ones from reveling. Creatures so affected cannot take violent actions (although they can defend themselves) or do anything destructive. Any aggressive action against or damage dealt to a calmed creature immediately breaks the spell on all calmed creatures.
This spell automatically suppresses (but does not dispel) any morale bonuses granted by spells such as bless, good hope, and rage, and also negates a bard's ability to inspire courage or a barbarian's rage ability. It also suppresses any fear effects and removes the confused condition from all targets. While the spell lasts, a suppressed spell, condition, or effect has no effect. When the calm emotions spell ends, the original spell or effect takes hold of the creature again, provided that its duration has not expired in the meantime.
Emphasis mine. For example Does the bolded section work like an anti-magic sphere vs magic? As long as it's up those abilities are surpressed in the radius? If so, it makes the spell much more useful.
For example, a barbarian who makes his save can still attack but is his rage ability still surpressed? If he was raging before the spell is he exhausted during the surpression or is he ok as long as he keeps expending rage rounds?
I always assumed that once you made the save you were unaffected by anything, but rereading the second paragraph makes me wonder if the secondary ability just happens whether or not the save is made.
Thoughts?
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The saving throw for the spell is 'will negates,; not 'will partial.' If the spell had any effect at all on someone who passed their will save, then it would probably say will partial. The fact that it completely negates the effect would imply that it does not get any effect if your target saves.
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The spell has the saving throw entry "Will negates." Thus, if the save is succesful the creature is unaffected by the spell completely.
With rage, I would think that the barbarian who failed his save could continue to spend rage points to keep the rage going, albeit with no benefit aside from not being fatigued/exhausted. He would certainly not gain the benefits of rage while under the effects of this spell, or be able to use any rage talents. But I think he would be able to continue it as long as he had the rage points to do so, and if the Calm Emotions spell ceased he would immediately gain back the benefits of his rage.
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The Saving Throw line says ¨Will negates¨ not ¨Will partial¨.
Read all the ´partial´ Save spells, they´re all utterly clear about what happens on a passed/failed Save. this spell´s wording is NOTHING like those spells. When a spell with a ´Save negates´ type says it does certain things to the targets, those effects happen on FAILED Saves. In this case, I don´t even know why they used the word ´automatically´, but I don´t think there is anything close to justifying ignoring the Saving Throw line in the stat block.
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Ah! Flanking Ninjas!
Anyways, I differ with Father Dale´s take re: continuing to Rage with no benefits.
Besides that doing so would seem to be inventing some condition not described anywhere (not being able to use any Rage Powers or benefits of Rage, while still Raging technically), the wording seems pretty clear to me: ´negates... a barbarian´s rage ability´.
If you really want to get technical, I guess you could argue that ´negating´ Rage ends ALL of the ability, including Fatigue from dropping it, but inventing some ´Raging but not Raging state´ seems pretty dubious to me.
I base that on the fact that the effect is suppressed and not dispelled. Nothing prevents the rage from continuing, aside from the barbarian spending rage points to do so; the spell simply prevents its effects from manifesting during its duration.
I'd note that the Calm Emotions spell is a carry over from 3.5 and thus was not written with rage working the way it does here in PF.
The saving throw for the spell is 'will negates,; not 'will partial.' If the spell had any effect at all on someone who passed their will save, then it would probably say will partial. The fact that it completely negates the effect would imply that it does not get any effect if your target saves.
The reason I gave this a second thought was that if you look at slow it negates haste whether or not you save against it, even though it says will negates.
They may be a little to apple and orangy but it made me wonder.
I base that on the fact that the effect is suppressed and not dispelled. Nothing prevents the rage from continuing, aside from the barbarian spending rage points to do so; the spell simply prevents its effects from manifesting during its duration.
The line about suppressing is specifically for spells. It says it "negates" a barbarian's rage, which I figure is pretty different from suppressing.
I encourage anybody to hit the FAQ button on me or Dale´s post.
I don´t think the wording is 100% clear either way...
(for that specific issue, not whether the spell still effects you if you pass the Save)
As Trinam said, if it was meant to have an effect even if the spell failed, it would have specifically said so.
No dev input is required because the whole spell doesn't do anything if they make their saving throw.
Correct. But only if you fail the save.
Yes, that is correct. And barbarians while raging do have a will save bonus if I'm correct.
Oh yes. A heck of a one if they're superstitious. :)
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Correct. But only if you fail the save.
Then what does the word "automatically" mean in this context?
Personally, I think the spell has two entirely different effects, one of which affects specific creatures (and thus has a save) and one of which is an area effect like antimagic.
This spell calms agitated creatures. You have no control over the affected creatures, but calm emotions can stop raging creatures from fighting or joyous ones from reveling. Creatures so affected cannot take violent actions (although they can defend themselves) or do anything destructive. Any aggressive action against or damage dealt to a calmed creature immediately breaks the spell on all calmed creatures.
This part talks about creatures being affected, and what they can and can't do. This reads like any other compulsion spell, clearly has an applicable save, and has no complications. No problems here.
This spell automatically suppresses (but does not dispel) any morale bonuses granted by spells such as bless, good hope, and rage, and also negates a bard's ability to inspire courage or a barbarian's rage ability. It also suppresses any fear effects and removes the confused condition from all targets. While the spell lasts, a suppressed spell, condition, or effect has no effect. When the calm emotions spell ends, the original spell or effect takes hold of the creature again, provided that its duration has not expired in the meantime.
This reads very like the antimagic field description - it automatically suppresses certain effects, for the duration of the spell, but it doesn't negate them, and it now sounds more like an AOE than a creature-targeting spell. It's written as an entirely separate effect from the first part - it's a separate paragraph, there's no reference to creatures (only targets and effects), and the first part already talked about how the spell ends (which is usually at the end of the description).
In addition, the end of the first part leaves this section unclear - does the second part end if a calmed creature is attacked? The first part just says it breaks the spell on all calmed creatures (as opposed to "the spell ends"). Nothing in the second section refers to "calmed creatures" or even creatures at all. It is entirely reasonable to say that morale bonuses are suppressed regardless of whether or not a creature is actually calmed by the spell, so they don't resume if the creature is no longer calmed.
This reads very like the antimagic field descriptionNow see, I suppose I don't agree with this because antimagic doesn't have a saving throw. If the intent of Calm Emotions was such that it automatically ended a barbarian's rage regardless of the saving throw results then I would expect a saving throw header of 'Will (partial)'. Since it states will negates then I'm inclined to believe that once you make your will save, it was as though the calm emotions spell was never cast, as far as you are concerned.
Consider Stinking Cloud. It has "Fortitude negates", but even if you make your save, you're still suffering from having your sight reduced to concealment at 5'. The negation could just specifically apply to the part that affects you, and not the part that's an emanation.
But again, my real frustration is that the Paizo staff has decided that this FAQ didn't require a response. I think it is at least deserving of a one line response along the lines of one of the two answers that I posted a few posts prior to this one.
Agreed. We can try to FAQ another one and see if they respond...
I'm guessing this is very low on their FAQ list. They tend to give a low priority to things that make sense except when someone obsesses about wording ... like what's happening here.
It seems pretty straightforward to me that calm emotions is a suppressive effect, and as such any effects suppressed continue without effect for the duration of the calm emotions, barring a Will save.
Not sure why the presence or absence of a save for antimagic field has any relevance.
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I wonder what percentage of posts in the Rules Questions section are a consequence of 'over-reading'?
If there is an obvious, straightforward meaning to a spell then why look for the awkward, finicky, rules-exception-creating interpretation?
Calm EmotionsSchool enchantment (compulsion) [emotion, mind-affecting]; Level bard 2, cleric/oracle 2, inquisitor 2; Domain charm 2, family 2
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, DFEFFECT
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area creatures in a 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration concentration, up to 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yesDESCRIPTION
This spell calms agitated creatures. You have no control over the affected creatures, but calm emotions can stop raging creatures from fighting or joyous ones from reveling. Creatures so affected cannot take violent actions (although they can defend themselves) or do anything destructive. Any aggressive action against or damage dealt to a calmed creature immediately breaks the spell on all calmed creatures.
This spell automatically suppresses (but does not dispel) any morale bonuses granted by spells such as bless, good hope, and rage, and also negates a bard's ability to inspire courage or a barbarian's rage ability. It also suppresses any fear effects and removes the confused condition from all targets. While the spell lasts, a suppressed spell, condition, or effect has no effect. When the calm emotions spell ends, the original spell or effect takes hold of the creature again, provided that its duration has not expired in the meantime.
Ironically, GeraintElberion, your post actually left me very confused :) .Are you saying that the obvious, straightforward meaning is that the rage automatically ends regardless of success or failure of the will save (hence the 'automatic' word in the spell description) or that, because the save header for the spell says 'will negates', if the person raging makes their will save, they continue to rage?
I'm all for simple solutions, up to the point that they are no longer a solution.
DJF
And this is exactly the problem. Good summary :)
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Ironically, GeraintElberion, your post actually left me very confused :) .Are you saying that the obvious, straightforward meaning is that the rage automatically ends regardless of success or failure of the will save (hence the 'automatic' word in the spell description) or that, because the save header for the spell says 'will negates', if the person raging makes their will save, they continue to rage?
I'm all for simple solutions, up to the point that they are no longer a solution.
DJF
You're probably reading too much into it.
:b
Honestly, if you have played PFRPG for any amount of time you automatically shouldn't have to think about this: did the designers really want to automatically create a spell which automatically lets a level 3 cleric automatically hamstring a level 18 barbarian and/or bard? Did they really want the BBEG's lowliest minion to automatically be the key player in your campaign's climactic battle?
Ironically, GeraintElberion, your post actually left me very confused :) .Are you saying that the obvious, straightforward meaning is that the rage automatically ends regardless of success or failure of the will save (hence the 'automatic' word in the spell description) or that, because the save header for the spell says 'will negates', if the person raging makes their will save, they continue to rage?
I'm all for simple solutions, up to the point that they are no longer a solution.
DJF
You're probably reading too much into it.
:b
Honestly, if you have played PFRPG for any amount of time you automatically shouldn't have to think about this: did the designers really want to automatically create a spell which automatically lets a level 3 cleric automatically hamstring a level 18 barbarian and/or bard? Did they really want the BBEG's lowliest minion to automatically be the key player in your campaign's climactic battle?
Entirely possibly, yes. Anti-magic field is a 6th level spell (so CL 13) which hamstrings anything magical short of a deity, which includes demon lords, powerful fey, great wyrm dragons, 30th level wizards, and so on. Sure, they're all going to have some (deadly) nonmagical alternatives, but they still lose buffs, items, many of their abilities, and so on. Similarly, a tanglefoot bag, which you can buy at 1st level for 50g, still halves the speed of all those monsters. And that 18th level bard could still defeat a 3rd level cleric easily, even without singing (let alone the barbarian)
Also, we can't really blame Paizo for this one. Even back to 3.0, the spell was possibly unclear, and they didn't change it in bringing it from 3.5 to PF.
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Clr 2, Law 2
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets: 1d6 creatures/level, all of whom must be within 30 ft. of each other
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
This spell calms agitated creatures. The character has no control over the affected creatures, but this spell can stop creatures from fighting. Creatures so affected cannot take violent actions (although they can defend themselves) or do anything destructive, except to protect themselves. Any aggressive action or life-threatening damage against calmed creatures immediately breaks the spell on the threatened creatures.
This spell automatically suppresses (but does not dispel) mind-affecting spells, as well as negating a bard’s ability to inspire courage or a barbarian’s rage. While the calm emotions spell lasts, a suppressed spell has no effect. When the calm emotions spell ends, the original spell takes hold of the creature again, provided its duration has not expired in the meantime.
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 2, Charm 2, Clr 2, Law 2
Components: V, S, DF
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area: Creatures in a 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
This spell calms agitated creatures. You have no control over the affected creatures, but calm emotions can stop raging creatures from fighting or joyous ones from reveling. Creatures so affected cannot take violent actions (although they can defend themselves) or do anything destructive. Any aggressive action against or damage dealt to a calmed creature immediately breaks the spell on all calmed creatures.
This spell automatically suppresses (but does not dispel) any morale bonuses granted by spells such as bless, good hope, and rage, as well as negating a bard’s ability to inspire courage or a barbarian’s rage ability. It also suppresses any fear effects and removes the confused condition from all targets. While the spell lasts, a suppressed spell or effect has no effect. When the calm emotions spell ends, the original spell or effect takes hold of the creature again, provided that its duration has not expired in the meantime.
School enchantment (compulsion) [emotion, mind-affecting]; Level bard 2, cleric/oracle 2, inquisitor 2; Domain charm 2, family 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, DF
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area creatures in a 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration concentration, up to 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
This spell calms agitated creatures. You have no control over the affected creatures, but calm emotions can stop raging creatures from fighting or joyous ones from reveling. Creatures so affected cannot take violent actions (although they can defend themselves) or do anything destructive. Any aggressive action against or damage dealt to a calmed creature immediately breaks the spell on all calmed creatures.
This spell automatically suppresses (but does not dispel) any morale bonuses granted by spells such as bless, good hope, and rage, and also negates a bard's ability to inspire courage or a barbarian's rage ability. It also suppresses any fear effects and removes the confused condition from all targets. While the spell lasts, a suppressed spell, condition, or effect has no effect. When the calm emotions spell ends, the original spell or effect takes hold of the creature again, provided that its duration has not expired in the meantime.
Greetings, fellow travellers.
Just to chime in (slight derail): the spell has a duration of concentration, up to 1rd/level - this is hardly game breaking considering the concentration rules and the amount of damage a lvl 18 barbarian (or one of his/her companions) can do at that level, plus you have taken one (high level) caster out of game, while (s)he maintains concentration.
Otherwise I agree, that it automatically suppresses the morale bonusses and a barbarian's rage and inspire courage by a bard after they failed their save .
Ruyan.
How is "Will Negates" ambiguous? The spell either works 100% or doesn't work at all.
Negates: The spell has no effect on a subject that makes a successful saving throw.
The spell does the following when a creature fails a saving throw
Suppresses
Bless (Spell)
Good hope (Spell)
Rage (Spell)
Fear (effect)
Negates
Inspire courage (Bard Ability)
Rage (Barbarian Ability)
Removes
Confused (condition)
How is "Will Negates" ambiguous? The spell either works 100% or doesn't work at all.
Negates: The spell has no effect on a subject that makes a successful saving throw.The spell does the following when a creature fails a saving throw
Suppresses
Bless (Spell)
Good hope (Spell)
Rage (Spell)
Fear (effect)Negates
Inspire courage (Bard Ability)
Rage (Barbarian Ability)Removes
Confused (condition)
The problem with that logic is: "What effect does Euphoric Cloud have on a successful save?"
That's a fort-negates spell that still clouds your vision (with fog) even if you make your save. I'm sure there's others, although they're pretty rare.
Euphoric Cloud is a completely different spell with different issues. According to a strict reading, even the cloud would have no effect on a successful save. There's nothing similar to that with Calm Emotions. It's a pretty strait forward spell, clearly laid out. The word automatically is irrelevant because the save itself negates it (if it said partial instead of negate then there would be an issue since you wouldn't know which part of the spell was partially negated). It doesn't use another spell's description as part of it as does Euphoric Cloud, which is the issue with that spell, since it ultimately references a spell without a save (fog cloud).
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...So the "automatically" bit makes it sound like its effects still work if you make your Will save?
Since the spell doesn't make a cloud or other tangible object, my take on it is that you still get your emotion effects if you make your saves, but lose them if you don't. Also, the fact that calmed people can't instigate an attack of their own volition does mean that you can use this spell to buy some time or halt some current violence for as long as the spell can last.
As for raging Barbarians who find themselves calmed, yes, failing their save would get them fatigued since their rage was negated. Though I wouldn't allow one to keep spending rage rounds to stave off the fatigue, one who lost the fatigue when/before Calm Emotions ended could rage right back up again.
(Also, if I was the DM, I'd only let the Cleric in question make a Care Bear Stare line once)
The power of love.. makes barbarians explode!
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That's just like, you opinion, man.
Since the issue's confusing to some of the people who posted here, other people (who may or may not find it confusing) post their opinions so other GMs and players can figure out which one sounds the most sensible to them. They can even figure out their own ruling based on whether or not they want the spell to still work even if you made your save.
That may be me opinion, but I'm trying to keep it as objective as possible.
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I regret my line from a cult movie was taken so somberly. It may have been an accident, but that was quite the buzz kill.
The spell is confusing by the way.
...Oops, I must not have seen that movie. Sorry 'bout that, and I regret sounding so touchy too.
As for a possibly unintended use for this spell, it could be useful in preventing overly violent or reckless party members from getting in over their heads.
I simply don't understand how you could find the wording unclear. The spell has a will save. The will save negates the effect of the spell. If the target passes the will save, the spell doesn't occur so the "automatically" doesn't apply. The reason the Devs ruled the FAQ wasn't necessary was because this is exactly how it is intended to work and how it does work. No amount of language mangling will make that any different.
I understand wanting to clear up confusing wordings and rules, but this is just ridiculous. There is no ambiguity here.
Well, I found this thread, specifically because I read the spell and it was not clear to me. My first impression was that Will negates all the effects, but second reaction was that's a pretty freaking weak spell for its level given that it's highly situational in its second half (the part after automatically).
That's my problem with what looks to be the assumed interpretation of the spell. If a will negates everything this spell does, it is highly useless.
Let's say you are fighting against a group of barbarians and you cast the spell against them and they all fail their saves. Well, they are calmed, so they can't attack. They have no rage. But you can't attack them, because it will end the spell and they will all just start raging again. Useless. If the save covers both the calming and the suppression of rage, there is then not much point to suppressing the rage.
Given that this requires concentration to maintain (thereby taking away standard actions from the caster), much of its suppression use is only useful against a bard, barbarian and a few select spells (highly situational), I think that this spell does need clarifying. In games I run, the save will be for the calming effect. The situational will be passive in nature.
Oh, thread necromancy. But why not?
Well, I found this thread, specifically because I read the spell and it was not clear to me. My first impression was that Will negates all the effects, but second reaction was that's a pretty freaking weak spell for its level given that it's highly situational in its second half (the part after automatically).
That's my problem with what looks to be the assumed interpretation of the spell. If a will negates everything this spell does, it is highly useless.
Most enchantment spells are "Will negates." I often wish a lot of spells that were "x negates" were in fact "x partial" so you never felt like you wasted a spell, but calm emotions is far from the only spell that suffers from this problem. Most likely if you're using a spell like this, you're using it on creatures you know(hope) are weak minded and/or you're very good at casting such spells (skill focus, etc.).
Let's say you are fighting against a group of barbarians and you cast the spell against them and they all fail their saves. Well, they are calmed, so they can't attack. They have no rage. But you can't attack them, because it will end the spell and they will all just start raging again. Useless. If the save covers both the calming and the suppression of rage, there is then not much point to suppressing the rage.
Well, first -- the spell description says it "negates" inspire courage and barbarian rage (the spell suppresses the rage spell and other spell effects, but it explicitly negates those two class abilities). That means the rage is cancelled. If you attack the barbarian, sure, they can activate their rage power again on their turn if they have rounds of use left, but the same rage isn't immediately activated--they lost that round of use and have to start up all over again. It's a minor distinction, but I think it's worth noting.
Second, why is being unable to attack the target necessarily useless? I can think of a number of reasons why a party may not wish to take on a horde of raging barbarians full force. Such as, for example, not wanting to die just yet.
While there may be story reasons that you want to kill the barbarian, there are also a ton of reasons not to. If the barbarians are protecting the castle you're trying to get into, you can now just walk past the barbarians and enter the castle. Goal is still achieved--and by a single spell, no less. That's actually potentially very powerful.
Remember there's never any obligation in the game to attack and kill anything, mechanically speaking. You get XP for overcoming encounters. Turning a group of slavering barbarians into a peaceful herd of hippies singing kum-ba-ya is definitely overcoming the encounter. XP earned. You could probably even talk the unwilling-to-fight calmed barbarians into handing over their valuables if you're clever.
And even delaying the attack can be tactically sound. If you're attacked by a group of barbarians who are guarding a powerful spell caster, calming the barbarians' emotions so you can get to the spellcaster unhindered and kill him first, before taking on the barbs (releasing concentration on the spell or just attacking them), could be a good plan.
Remember that the spell can also have a useful ability to suppress fear effects, and it negates confusion, making it possibly useful against certain allies.
It is a circumstantial spell, but the circumstances in which it is useful, it is very useful indeed.
Given that this requires concentration to maintain (thereby taking away standard actions from the caster), much of its suppression use is only useful against a bard, barbarian and a few select spells (highly situational), I think that this spell does need clarifying. In games I run, the save will be for the calming effect. The situational will be passive in nature.
You could do that: allow calm emotions to automatically suppress the appropriate effects in the area, no save allowed, but I don't think that's required---and I think the spell as written is pretty clear. Of course, house rule as you like! I'd suggest, however, not underestimating the usefulness of this spell.