Dot for interest. :)
I've put some work into this same project, and even followed this thread a few months ago.
I think the idea of making nationalities into new 'races' is good, but I'd suggest that that is an optional package. Basically, a Tairen could choose to go with the basic human, or could pick up the Tairen racial alternatives, which would include the changes y'all are discussing.
I'll post the work I've done... if nothing else, it will give some others the opportunity to speak into what I think is a few solid conversion options.
@hgsolo
regional traits sounds like a good idea. getting rid of the extra feat and extra skills is a good idea because the world is populated by humans.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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One thing that always bothered me about d20 WoT was using the mental stats to determine channeling ability at all - Morgase can barely twitch a hanging cloth, but I couldn't see any argument that she is unexceptional in both Int and Cha. Also, it doesn't work very well to model wilders who get trained.
I'd suggest some sort of "tiers" system like the fandom has come up with, with a new "potential" stat like so:
Tier 0: can channel, but barely. Morgase-level. 0 level powers only.
Tier 1: White tower dropouts. Kin who were not powerful enough. Level 1-2 powers.
Tier 2: Average late Third age Aes Sedai. Level 3-4 powers.
Tier 3: Above average. Moiraine at low ened of this tier, Elayne/Egwene at high end. Up to level 6-7 powers.
Tier 4: Forsaken class. Nynaeve. Up to level 9-10(with overchanneling).
Tier 5: Rand, maybe Lanfear pre-FoH. No cap, whatever they want to risk with overchanneling.
Obviously this departs from standard d20 spellcasting. You could use the character's tier as the casting stat modifier for weaves, or maybe tier +1. Channelers could still weave down slots so there would still be an advantage to continuing to level past the soft cap.
I suppose with this system overchanneling might be able to break the character's cap by a level or two.
As for how to determine the tiers for PC channelers, I propose GM fiat. Just discuss with your players the power level you and they want for the game. Example: if I were to run a game during the Aiel war, I might pick tier 3 for PCs (so they can be as good as the best Aes Sedai, but can't get to all the really high level craziness that really wasn't flung around at that time). A player could always choose a lower tier if they like, of course.
I just hashed this out over 10 minutes or so, so I'd welcome comments/criticisms.
stuff about capping channelers' abilities.
Meh... Sure in the book world there are plenty of people who can't channel, it just means that for some reason they never went beyond a certain point in their class. That sounds like DM fiat to me (or in the case of the books, author fiat) because it is limiting character options for story reasons. If you want to impose this feel free but I don't see why you need rules for it beyond "in this campaign channelers cannot be above level X." It's just one more houserule.
One of the conversions I did for WoT a while ago was making the channeling stat a male/female divide, rather than wilder/initiate.
Women use Wisdom, since it is more amount intuition and surrendering in order to gain control of saidar. Men use charisma, since it is more about wrestling saidin via force of personality.
I like this though.
stuff about capping channelers' abilities.Meh... Sure in the book world there are plenty of people who can't channel, it just means that for some reason they never went beyond a certain point in their class. That sounds like DM fiat to me (or in the case of the books, author fiat) because it is limiting character options for story reasons. If you want to impose this feel free but I don't see why you need rules for it beyond "in this campaign channelers cannot be above level X." It's just one more houserule.
I like this though.One of the conversions I did for WoT a while ago was making the channeling stat a male/female divide, rather than wilder/initiate.
Women use Wisdom, since it is more amount intuition and surrendering in order to gain control of saidar. Men use charisma, since it is more about wrestling saidin via force of personality.
It definitly has a better feel for the books. But i can see why it was broken up the way it is in the RPG books. In the towers, its all about clear lines of logic based problems that allow the channeler to do what needs to be done. "you make the weave this way, and only this way, because that is how its done and taught to me". I think there is even a brief paragraph that describes what happens when a novice tries do to a weave a different way.
For a wilder though, there is no line of reason, its just purely gut instinct, so having it linked to wisdom and charisma best supports the instintive channeler.|
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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It definitly has a better feel for the books. But i can see why it was broken up the way it is in the RPG books. In the towers, its all about clear lines of logic based problems that allow the channeler to do what needs to be done. "you make the weave this way, and only this way, because that is how its done and taught to me". I think there is even a brief paragraph that describes what happens when a novice tries do to a weave a different way.
For a wilder though, there is no line of reason, its just purely gut instinct, so having it linked to wisdom and charisma best supports the instintive channeler.
I can see the logic behind how it is presented in the WoT d20 book. It just bothers me that this way, there is not much encouragement for, say, a Gray Ajah initiate who has a higher Charisma than Int.
For some reason the attitude of "if your casting stat isn't your best stat, you're doing it wrong" is very prevalent, and that attitude tends to restrict character options. By tying channeling to any set ability score you create a situation where nearly all PC channelers will have that score as their best score, which, to me, does not represent the diversity amongst channelers that we see in the books.
ok...attempt number 2 at this thing...
so, my thought for the first thing to do is to modify the skills listing, since that should be the easiest thing to do...
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Good luck with this endeavor. Having played D20 WoT, I admit I am still rather embittered over how unbalanced the classes are. The real concern over balancing this game in PF is because channellers are much like Jedi, they exist to be 'greater' than anyone else for the most part. Skilled swordsmen, pilots, sneaks and diplomats in addition to having their own weave ability (or Force powers). The nature of the series greatly implies to me that there cannot be balance.
The Prestige Classes will need a great amount of help to avoid 'empty levels' as PF is known for removing, but even so, I recall my Wolfbrother character getting horrible bonuses, and ill defined abilities. +2 to Intimidate is not a very good power/ability, when the other players are constantly hurling fireballs and lightning.
In short, I consider this a Herculean task, and I wish you the best of luck.
i am doing a playtest in my pbp to setup a way that handles how to identify items made of the one power.
Since spellcraft is used in pathfinder to identify magic items, For WOT, lets use Weavesight. And i think this needs to be a special use of the skill, since there is some risk involved in messing with One power objects. So, Items will be assigned a DC, and the identifier will have to hit the DC to avoid any affects. I think that using the overchanneling rules would be an easy way of dictating the adverse effects of failure in identifying the items. So if you fail the check, you make a Will save instead of fort save, and if you fail that, then how much you miss by will corrollate to the chart, so if a person fails miserably, then the potential of stilling is there, since it is spoken of in the books. And, with risk comes reward, so lets say that if you exceed the DC, there is the potential of being able to craft the same item. Like you exceed the check by 10, you can make a faulty copy,by 20 make an exact copy, 25+ you can enhance it.
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skill conversion from wotrpg to pathfinder rpg
animal empathy= handle animal
Appraise= appraise
Balance= acrobatics
Bluff=bluff
Climb=climb
Concentration= not applied in pathfinder
Craft= same
Decipher Script= linguistics
Diplomacy=same
Disable Device=same
Disguise=same
Escape Artist=same
Forgery= linguistics
Gather Information=diplomacy
Handle Animal=same
Heal=same
Hide=stealth
Innuendo=diplomacy
Intimidate=same
intuit direction=survival
Jump=acrobatics
Knowledge=same
Listen=perception
Move Silently=stealth
Open Lock=disable device
Perform=same
Profession=same
Ride=same
Search=perception
Sense Motive=same
Sleight Of Hand=same
Speak Language=linguistics
Spellcraft=same
Spot=perception
Survival=same
Swim=same
Tumble=acrobatics
Use Magic Device=same
Use Rope=survival
skills that are rolled into others:
use rope
tumble
speak language
spot
search
open lock
listen
jump
hide
gather information
forgery
decipher script
balance
skills that are no longer used in pathfinder
concentration
skills kept in WOTRPG:
weavesight
invert
composure
concentration
added from pathfinder to WOTRPG:
knowledge: engineering
Well I hope this project is not a dead post, only been a month so I have hope. My group and I loved the WoT rpg and I would love to resurrect it through the PF rpg since I love the system. I am going to give my 2¢ in hopes of helping and I hope that the Project page thought will be done making it easier for a group effort.
-I believe for the Algai that the Barb/Monk combo is best giving the AC/Saves, limiting the types of weapons and feats they can choose(closer to the monk), like their own Bonus Feats group, while using the movement bonus from the Barb, Maybe something like the.... maybe like the City Barb archetype.
-The Wanderer should be based off the Bard but maybe replacing their spellcasting with more of a rogue talents like abilities.
-I would say that keeping the Channeler as a single class and working in Archetypes for the different types is a good option that way you basically only make 1 full class with a few tweaks to give you new options.
-I can definitely see the Warder as a semi-starting class because even in the books some Aes Sedai chose there warders for other reasons not just their experience, although most were chosen for their abilities and experience it was not impossible to see a un-blooded warder which is why they had warder training.
-I have no clue if anybody has worked on any of the PrC but I definitely want to see the Wolfbrother brought into play in this project. Perrin being my Favorite Character!
-I haven't read it yet but the GMG has something about Madness so maybe that can be used for the Male channelers with a bit of tweaking unless you are playing the campaign after the healing of the one power.
I know there is more I had opinions and ideas on but I just went blank.... it's 4am LoL I will try to check back often though. Consider me as a added dev if nobody minds my noobish homebrew abilities but I know the series and own the book as well. Hope this continues and that I am of help to the project.
Edit: I remembered part of it.
-Make Weavecraft the primary skill for channeling and then make a weavesight feat and maybe an improved version for those who can see better details. Maybe the DC is higher to see the weave so the feats give you bonuses towards seeing them. Or something like that anyways.
-Feats can be used to incorporate some of the Specialized abilities as well such as Crafting angreal and such or specialized Healing or even traveling or flight.
No, its not dead. I am currently running a WOT PbP, and am playtesting certain things as they come up.
Whenever i get a free moment in my hectic life, I like to figure out certain things about this conversion.
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Dotting this for interest. May try and contribute as time allows.
I do think it needs a more free-form channel system, akin to d20 psionics, WW mage, or the old Dragonlance saga primal magic (the only thing from that card game I considered worth the money I had spent on it).
Maybe work on making it skill-based, where you determine a difficulty based off of the weaves attributes, and roll a Weavecraft skill check to see if you succeed, fail, or fumble it.
I don't know. The more free-form, the longer it would take to complete each channeler's round in combat. To much complexity can bog down the game.
Will look at what I can figure out.
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One reason why I think you need the channeling tiers in some form is that women can sense how strong each new initiate will become.
So either different tiers, or a channeling stat. Maybe a channeling stat in each of the five powers, so that you can portray men being stronger in fire and earth, and women being stronger in air and water.
All five along with your appropriate ability (Wis=saidar/Cha=saidan combine to make your Weavecraft stat.
Hmmmm...the seperate stat idea for channeler strength isnt too bad of one...
Well, I would definitely look up the new archetypes before trying to reinvent the wheel (of time). For female channelers, you could try and convert the inquisitor (possibly with some home-brew inquisitions) or even just switch out the required stat for witch-spellcasting so it works like you want it to.
Personally, I'd tag "seeing the potential in an initiate" as rather a plot hook/GM fiat/plot device. That's something for NPCs. Or PCs with the Leadership feat who are on the lookout for a cohort who can actually level up - in contrast to all the NPCs in the world who will be stuck with their GM-assigned stats forever. ;-)
For Aiel, I'd simply go with the Sohei archetype for the monk. He wields a spear, he unleashes a wild series of attacks on his enemies while in the "throes of melee rage" (read: full attack all the way! Yay!) and looks soooooo intimidating while doing it. So just give him Dazzling Display as a bonus feat in place of another archetype/class feature he doesn't need anyway.
As a side note, you can always describe "non-dramatic or flashy spell effect" as simply highly specialized deductive thinking mid-combat or something. Sure, Karl the Bard calls it "I cast Haste, everybody full-attack for the next 12 rounds!", but Georyn the Learned calls it "Hurry, my fellows, while we have the advantage! Their movements are slow and slurrish from lack of sleep - so press on while we are still fresh! It will not last long!" Any spell with verbal components can be re-flavored to sound like simple advice or bardic music stuff.
Oh, and just as a starting point: if spell-blights (from Ultimate Magic) were more common place, everyone would be more careful with what and how much they cast - how is this different from the fear of stilling from over-channeling...? ;-)
I would have to search for my copies of the rules to go any deeper, so I'll just shut it now. ^^
(please note that I hve only played the game, not read the novels. All my friends at the gaming table at that time were always referring to them, however, and I can only hope to get the expressions and vocabulary right - it's been a few years. ;-) This is just what I always do when trying to convert anything: look to the material already present and see how I can make it fit the mold. That way, nobody can say it's grossly unbalanced and it's not so much work...)
bumping this to force me to look at this tomorrow at lunch break...
Just a re-add for easy access
skill conversion from wotrpg to pathfinder rpg
animal empathy= handle animal
Appraise= appraise
Balance= acrobatics
Bluff=bluff
Climb=climb
Concentration= not applied in pathfinder
Craft= same
Decipher Script= linguistics
Diplomacy=same
Disable Device=same
Disguise=same
Escape Artist=same
Forgery= linguistics
Gather Information=diplomacy
Handle Animal=same
Heal=same
Hide=stealth
Innuendo=diplomacy
Intimidate=same
intuit direction=survival
Jump=acrobatics
Knowledge=same
Listen=perception
Move Silently=stealth
Open Lock=disable device
Perform=same
Profession=same
Ride=same
Search=perception
Sense Motive=same
Sleight Of Hand=same
Speak Language=linguistics
Spellcraft=same
Spot=perception
Survival=same
Swim=same
Tumble=acrobatics
Use Magic Device=same
Use Rope=survival
skills that are rolled into others:
use rope
tumble
speak language
spot
search
open lock
listen
jump
hide
gather information
forgery
decipher script
balance
skills that are no longer used in pathfinder
concentration
skills kept in WOTRPG:
weavesight
invert
composure
concentration
added from pathfinder to WOTRPG:
knowledge: engineering
So my concerns with the WoT being a game is that people have inherent strength in the power. The only way to really translate that well is if you break the magic down to a point system. The example would be comparing Moraine to say Egwene. Moraine knew how to use the power better and more efficiently, but Egwene could overpower her with brute force. So if Egwene would cast a weave, that was earth based(She is strong in earth), and for Moraine to counter it would cost more than a normal counter 1 for 1 point cost. So in said case lets just say Egwene was 2 times stronger than Moraine in the area it would cost Moraine double the cost of Egwene to counter it. Also the Ajah's should be broken down in to their own "archtypes". Like Brown Ajah make get Bardic Lore Built in to the archetype or green would have a martial weapon proficiency. Stuff of that nature. Just my input.
The same should be done with the Aiel and their clans. They each served a particular purpose.
The warrior societies, you mean.
a simple change
change the HD of the initiate from d4 to d6, to reflect the same of wizard and sorcerer in pathfinder.
Lets go down tharialas' line of thought with archetypes of the ajahs.
im listing the ajahs and recommended abilities, from off the top of my head
white: +4 to will saves vs mind effects, enchantments, illusions
blue: have no idea
brown: bardic lore like bard, or the prestige class loremaster
gray: +4 bonus to diplomacy, bluff, intimidate, gather information, sense motive checks. goes to +8 at 6th level aes sedai
yellow: Special aptitude for healing, can channel all healing spells at 1 slot lower. This takes precedence over other channeling modifications, like using an angreal, or meeting the weave prereqs.
red: easier time shielding a male channeler. They dont have to add the +6 channel level when shielding the opposite sex.
green: BAB progression like armsman. bonuses to overchanneling offensive spells, half that of an Asha'man
black: the three oaths removed. Has access to original ajah special abilities
Has the original poster considered Google Docs? Its a great resource for organizing and sharing the work from this thread. You can also convert the material straight to PDF from Google Docs.
And if you want you can open it up for others to comment or even give limited access to others to work on the same document.
I use it for all my Homebrew/Guide stuff.
Some ideas I had:
Races:
Human-non channeler
Human-channeler
Ogier
Each region still has bonuses that exist in the currect rulebook.
Ogier can stay as is, unless it needs jazzing up.
NC Humans gain stats/abilities as per PFRPG stablock + regional benefits.
Channelers gain either +2 to WIS (Female) or +2 to CHA (males)
Gain similar racial traits to Elan from Psionics: Unleashed.
Base power pool of primary casting stat (WSI or CHA) bonus, plus 1 pp per 3 HD.
Still gain regional benefits.
Can know any 1 1st level power usable once per day. For every 3 HD, they can learn one more, their HD being their CL.
Channlers can take any class, except regional choices (ie. Aiel can only be Algai, etc.)
Channeling acts as psionics from P:U. Weed out powers that don't fit the setting, adding those that do.
To borrow from others:
For channelers, Aes Sedai class and Asha'man classes.
Each has archtypes or paths for ajah or taining specializations (for Asha'man).
Channelers w/o a channeler class only ever gets racial channeling, plus normal class abilities.
Channelers who take a channeling class use that class' power progression and power pool, but retain any racial channeling abilities if a channeling class is gained after level 1.
Replace core classes with core clas equivalent from PFRPG core book.
Archtypes from PFRPG can be used to flush out classes instead of PrCs.
Warder becomes a template, not a PrC.
White: I agree with the +4. They should likely have a + to Bluff as they are very apt at holding themselves in check and very devoid of emotion. Even by Aes Sedai Standards.
Blue: They are skill monkeys. I would give them a 6 or 8 + int modifier to skills.
Brown: Seems good. You may want to give them a free skill focus in an area or 2. I would say linguistics as well.
Gray: Everything stated aside from the +8. I would give them Knowledge Nobility and maybe Local.
Yellow: Exactly. I would also extend this to cure poisons and possibly curses as well.
Red: I think this should be against all male casters if you try and make Pathfinder a point system for spells. This would be done by saying that the average person is X for channeling power and the Reds would be starting at that equivalent when facing men. This then would be further augmented by their inherent strength. Men are generally stronger in the Power than women. Also remember there is no school for men to learn their weaves. This is also depending on when you adventure would be in the time line. They can't, for the most part, teach one another very well.
Green: Yes for the base attack. I might throw in a few combat feats as well. I would say Knowledge: Shadowspawn, Engineering, Geography and History. All this would be pertaining to military tactics and the like.
Black: I would also give them a +1 or so caster level for using compulsion spells. Charm/Dominate and the like.
I tried to make a point conversion to Pathfinder spells. This was just the points the spells would cost and not how many points would be gained as characters would level up. I will see if I can dig around in my notes and post it a bit later. I really tried to simplify it as much as possible and some things, like wish and the like, I don't think translated out well in the system. Wish however was not a viable option in WoT.
As and after thought to the innate strength in the power, there should be a random roll to see how powerful you are in the power. Since it seems that strength in general is random. With that said there could be feats that would augment that innate strength. I.E. Old Old Blood as a feat and finally ancient blood.
This, IMO would also augment a Ta' veren roll. Then you would have to make a list of effects on Ta' veren.
Then of course you would have to make a list of talents/sub-talents. Like schools of magic all the way down as specific as being good at one particular weave. Of course all this would have to be completely random.
With all that, the Aiel would be a large monster to conquer. They are supposed to be the most bad ass fighters in the lands. They, IMO, would be akin to the power of Blademasters & Warders.
They would be a monk/ranger mix that uses spears...there's a net variant of the algai taht rocks much.
I would add on a couple minor things (class skill changes and the like) depending on the warrior society the character chooses.
This may be difficult, as not all of the warrior societies had info...
EDIT: none of the mystic stuff of monks, mind you, except those that make sense reskinned to be not so mystic. Basicly a desert ranger with a flurry, AC, unarmed damage increased spear damage.
I think Ta'varen can basicly act as an always on charm person. GM rolls behind the screen to see how the person is influenced, perhaps?
Instead of it being intentional on the part of the ta'varen, it's the wheel itself (you) that is moving the cahracter...
I also need to come up with how Damane and Sul'Dam work, specificly.
Some people may want to play a campaign in Seanchan...
Algai’d’siswai (Revised)
(By Jax Ryan)
This is a revised version of the
Algai’d’siswai. Taking into account the
renowned unarmed combat style of the
Aiel and adding some new features to the
already fearsome spear-fighter.
Hit Dice: d10
Class Skills: The Algai’d’siswai's class
skills (and the key ability for each skill) are
Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int),
Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Nature) (Int),
Perception (Wis), Stealth (Dex), Survival (Wis).
Skill Points at 1st Level: 4 + Int
modifier.
Class Features:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An
Algai’d’siswai is proficient with the
dagger, Aiel spear, shortbow, and Aiel
shortbow. Algai’d’siswai are not
proficient with any type of armor, except
the Aiel buckler.
Ji'e'toh: All Algai’d’siswai follow a strict
code of honor. Should an Algai’d’siswai
ever break this code, they must atone for
their actions or be unable to progress in
levels as an Algai’d’siswai.
Fast Movement: When wearing no armor,
the Algai’d’siswai has a speed modifier of
+10.
Hardiness: Algai’d’siswai have nearly
unstoppable endurance. Once per day,
they may attempt a Con ability check (DC
15) when fatigued. If successful, they are
no longer fatigued, as if they had rested for
8 hours.
Unarmed Strike: Algai’d’siswai are
highly trained in fighting unarmed, giving
them a considerable advantage when doing
so against “weaker” Wetlanders. An
Algai’d’siswai fighting unarmed gains the
benefits of the Improved Unarmed Strike
feat and thus does not provoke attacks of
opportunity from armed opponents. He
may choose to deal regular or subdual
damage at no penalty, and can also make a
critical hit (20/x2) while dealing regular
damage.
An Algai’d’siswai's unarmed attacks may
be with either fist interchangeably or even
from elbows, knees, and feet. Making an
off-hand attack makes no sense for an
Algai’d’siswai striking unarmed. An
Algai’d’siswai using a dagger or Aiel spear
can strike with his unarmed base attack,
including his more favorable number of
attacks per round. His damage, however,
is standard for the weapon, not his
unarmed damage, but gains the extra
damage granted by his Spears of Death
ability (see below).
An Algai’d’siswai fighting with a one-
handed weapon can make an unarmed
strike as an off-hand attack, but he suffers
the standard penalties for two-weapon
fighting. Likewise, an Algai’d’siswai with
a weapon (other than a dagger or Aiel
spear) in his off hand gets an extra attack
with that weapon but suffers the usual
penalties for two-weapon fighting and can't
strike with Aiel Flurry (see below).
Uncanny Dodge: Starting at 2nd level, the
Algai’d’siswai gains the extraordinary
ability to react to danger before his senses
would normally allow him to do so. At
2nd level and above, he retains his
Dexterity bonus to Defense (if any)
regardless of being caught flat-footed or
struck by an invisible attacker. (He still
loses his Dexterity bonus to Defense if
immobilized.)
At 5th level, the Algai’d’siswai can no
longer be flanked; he can react to
opponents on opposite sides of him as
easily as he can react to a single attacker.
This defense denies a Wanderer the ability
to use a flank attack to sneak attack the
Algai’d’siswai. The exception to this
defense is that a Wanderer at least four
levels higher than the Algai’d’siswai can
flank him (and thus sneak attack him). At
10th level, the Algai’d’siswai gains an
intuitive sense that alerts him to danger
from traps, giving him a +1 bonus to
Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1
dodge bonus to Defense against attacks by
traps. At 13th level, these bonuses rise to
+2. At 16th, they rise to +3, and at 19th
they rise to +4.
Partial Armor Compatibility:
Algai’d’siswai are well trained in the use
of the Aiel buckler. Beginning at 3rd
level, the Aiel’s Defense bonus from class levels
and the bonus granted by an Aiel buckler
will stack.
Stealthy movement: Algai’d’siswai may
add half their Reflex save bonus to all
Stealth checks.
Dance the Spears: Works exactly as in the
rulebook.
Spears of Death: The Algai’d’siswai
master a deadly fighting style of grace and
perfection, so smooth and confident are
their actions that, to others, it looks as
beautiful as a dance. At level one, an
Algai’d’siswai may make a flurry of
attacks. When taking a full-attack action,
they can make one extra attack at their full
base attack bonus, but receive a -2 penalty
on all attack rolls for one round. At level
six, all their attacks with a single-handed
piercing weapon deals an extra +1d6
damage. At level fifteen, this damage
increases by another +1d6. Anything
immune to critical hits is also immune to
this extra damage.
Trackless Step: An Algai’d’siswai can
step lightly, as to leave no trail. At level 8,
when wearing no armor and moving no
faster then a hustle, the DC to track an Aiel
is increased by two. This bonus rises by
two at level fourteen, and again at level
twenty.
I have always wanted to add an Aiels Con modifier to there saving throws like a paladins charisma reflecting there honor code and hardiness from the waste. or attack and damage like a holy smite but a Hardy smite
Yeah it needs tweaking.
+ 1/2 char level to stealth and survival
Stalwart as per Inquisitor
Seems strong, but to me the channelers need to rock much instead of how they are in the book, then build the other classes 1 notch below them.
This will do the setting justice, imho.
More channeler stuff:
Affinity gives bonuses like traits in PFRPG. No affinity means weaves are at -1 CL. You'll start with 2 affinities based on your gender* at first level and gain the lsited bonus. The other affinities can be picked up later, but you will not get the listed bonus, only cast at normal CL.
MEN:
Fire: +1 to CHA based skills and +1 per die of damage for Fire weaves
Earth: +1 to Fort saves and +1 per die of damage for Earth weaves
WOMEN:
Air: +1 to Reflex saves and +1 per die of damage for Air weaves
Water: +1 to Sense motive and +1 per die of damage for Water weaves
EITHER:
Spirit: +1 to Heal checks and +1 per die of Healing weaves.
These are competance bonuses, and increase by 1 per 5 levels, ending at +5 at 20th.
Talents, like as they are represented in the book, will still be feats, but will not restrict a channeler from knowing the weaves contained in them as they do now. They will provide some other bonus, or make it easier to unlock lost weaves contained in that talent, etc.
*I know one of the girls had an affinity for what was typicly a male element, but she was a-typical, and such things can of course be over-ridden by the GM.
EDIT: Made some changes
I'm thinking the Aes Sedai and Asha'man would be the same class pretty much, the affintes for the different elements and such would make the difference between such characters evident.
MD, I think composure could be rolled into bluff...
Did you guys like the Reputation mechanic?
Choosing your affinities is an interesting idea. I don't think weaves should necessarily have a -1 to them without any affinity. I think, while it is more random, that you may want to randomly role for affinities. A character may not have any affinity at all. Some people were just naturally stronger. If memory serves moraine had a minor affinity in air. Though she seemed well more versed at doing just about anything. While Nynaeve had an affinity at healing she could also do just about any kind of weave. Egwene was about the same. She had a talent for earth, but she could do just about anything. Elayne doesn't really have a talent except for magic item creation. With that said, Rand displayed no ability for healing. So maybe some sort of random system on affinities and areas of the power they have access to? My only concern for this is this may curb character creation through concepts. One of my friends approached this in AD&D. He multi-classed Wizard/Cleric/Psionics. May something like that would be acceptable. You could probably attain this by having everyone start with the fast exp chart. Single class character would go by this. Multi-Class 2 would go by medium and Multi-Class three would go by the slow exp chart. This would also be possible with fighter classes/ otherclasses. Just average out hit points and/or take the best from you classes.
Sounds like you're talking more about 'talents' than affinities.
Males are typicly stronger at Fire and Earth weaves, while women are typicly stronger at Air and Water, whith either also being strong in Spirit. This is what I mean by affinity.
Healing falls under 'talents' and covers a group of actual weaves them selves like 'healing' or 'complusion'.
The -1 CL simply shows that they aren't as strong in the thigns they don't have talent ot affinity for. This could just as easily be represnted by a +1 CL for things you do have an affinity for. The reason I like the psionics rules is you can augment powers by spending more than the base amount of power points. This allows channelers that are more learned to have greater effect than a novice channeler, because they can pour more into it, and overcome a -1 CL easily, but will still limit how much extra to put in.
Elayne, Egwene and Nynaeve were stronger simply by being able to pull in more to channel. ie. a higher power point pool. I was planning on having feats to portray this as well.
You are correct. I was talking about the wrong thing. I was talking talents. I do like the idea of the Psionics for channeling. I really need to remember to put my point conversion for spells to point system on here. Just remember that it is more for a basic frame work. I just keep forgetting to do it when I am at home. Thought I think there are some third edition books that also make them into a point system. I just think Psionics is a little limiting in the scope of things they cover. It would need to be fleshed out a bit more by adding some new things and rules for augmentation.
Oh yeah, that's all in the works...at least in my conversion
I have been thinking allot about the AIEL and what makes them so special in the books and how that translates in game. I see them like the paladin able to add a stat bonus to saves for a high price.
I think the Aiel should have a similar ability
rough draft below
:JI'e Toh
the Aiel can add his Con modifier to his saves as long as he stays Aiel and doe snot multi class if he ever violates Ji 'E Toh he loses all the ability granted and minuses the Modifier from his saves until he had restored his honor. all the abilities listed below are for Aiel only and any multi classing except for Wise one makes the bailitys invalid. same if you violate Jieothoh violating Jietoh may be at your Dm's discretion to to represent the varied rules of Jietoh.
JIetoh Defense: at 3rd level the Aiel may add his Con modifier as a Bonus to his AC as a swift action.THis ability lasts the number of rounds equal to his unmodified Con Modifier this ability is only able to be used once a day . at level 6 he may add his Con Modifier to his AC and as DR/ against all attacks for one round. at 9th level he may use this ability 2x a day. still once a round due to the Aiel Reckliess nature this ability cannot function with Jietoh Strike
Jietoh Strike: at 3rd level the Aiel may choose to add his Con modifier to either his to hit or to his damage but not both. this ability may be used as a swift action. this ability only works once a day and lasts rounds equal to his unmodified con modifier. at 6th level he may split the Modifier to add to both but it must be Equal.at 9th level he may choose to split the modifier any way he chooses and use the ability 2x a day. this ability functions apart form Jietoh Defense and cannot be used in conjunction with it. this ability only works with a spear or a Short bow not Unarmed strikes
Jetoh Fighting style: Tha Aiel automatically adds all his Con modifier to his CMD and CMB and to his unarmed strike damage this does not function if the Aiel chooses not to use a spear.
tell me what you think I have never designed a character before and i think i wrote out all the loop holes
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JI'e Toh write-up
That seems like a bit of a boost for the Aiel, and not one that I think is necessarily conceptually accurate. Yes, they were tough, but I'm not sure that allowing them to apply that toughness to many of their rolls (that aren't necessarily con-related in any way) makes much sense.
The Charisma for the Paladin and the Con for the Aiel seems like apples to oranges... at least to me.
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In other news:
There's a lot in this thread that I think is interesting, and much that I think needs a second look.
Here's my thoughts:
Channelers: I like giving Saidar and Saidin different primary casting stats (Charisma for Saidin and Wisdom for Saidar to reflect how the channeler has to work with it), with the secondary stat always being INT.
I've always felt that the two classes (Wilder and Initiate) should be one class, with two "paths" the character chooses on entry to the class -- Path of the Initiate and Path of the Wilder. Initiates would keep their bonuses to learning weaves, Wilders to Over-channeling. That way that decision at character creation is more defining for the channeler's career (as opposed to in the current system where a channeler can take levels in both classes and get the full benefits of both -- not to mention doubling up on casting stat bonuses… which i don't think was intended by the dev's). I also think these wilder/initiate-specific bonuses (weave knowledge & over channeling bonuses) should scale with the channeler like the Ranger's Track class feature. Once again it makes even more benefit for sticking it out in the class you chose. I'm all about multi-classing, but I believe sticking with one class should have some serious benefits, too.
Embracing the Source: Should be a standard action, with the ability to drop it to a move via a feat. Once the source is embraced, the channeler gains a +2 bonus to Perception rolls as well as Low-Light Vision. Obviously this is necessary to casting any weaves.
Ajahs: If I were doing this conversion, I'd make becoming a full sister a prestige class; with their choice of Ajah being a part of their first level of the PrC, and bonuses gained being unique to this decision. The bonuses you're mentioning above could easily be worked in that way. If a player/DM wants to run a game with established full Aes Sedai instead of simply untaught wilders, tower Initiates, or Accepted, he/she can simply up the level that the game starts at.
As for what bonus the Blues should have… it should be about hunting down rumors pertaining to the Prophecies of the Dragon and hunting down leads on the Dragon himself, with a dash of an improved spy network thrown in. They do have the most developed spy network in the Tower, after all (better even than the Mother). So I'd say a bonus to Diplomacy to Gather Info being one of the bennies, as well as some additional bonuses to KNowledge checks about the Prophecy. Then possibly a class ability useable 1/day or something where they can glean a piece of information they wouldn't have access to before using a 'secret local contact'.
Weaves: Sigh. I don't have a clue here. I want to update it a bit, and there are things about the original system that I'm not a fan of, but much of it works, too.
Affinity Strengths: Doesn't the book include a mechanic for this? If not, then I'd say applying the -1 to non-primary affinities (or any affinities that the channeler picks up as they level) makes sense. If someone chooses a Strength, it should stick with them and have in-gmae ramifications as they level. I'd also be fine if they were just considered 1 channeler level higher with weaves within their Affinity strength.
Warders: I REALLY like the idea that being the target of the Bond weave applies a template (instead of a prestige class). I say remove the Prestige Class altogether, though I could see a prestige class being built for melee types called "Tower Trained", and the goal would be to work well with the Warder Bond Template, with a focus on creating the world's best body-guards and small-unit melee combatants and bladesmen (as well as a substantial bonus to Intimidate rolls and their Reputation score).
For the Warder bond Template, I believe the template RIZZEN suggested is below. I'd suggest a few modifications, based on what I see in the books. (mostly the Shadow sense and bond sense abilities.
+2 enhancement bonus to Strength (Stronger)
+2 Enhancement bonus to Dexterity (quicker response)
+2 hp per level (stacks with toughness) (Tougher)
+5' bonus to speed (Faster)
+2 to all saving throws against weaves and abilities of shadowspawn and darkfriends. (Darkfriend is defined as someone who has sworn oaths to the Dark One)
Free Feat: Iron Will (cannot be used when resisting Aes Sedai Command).
(to balance these abilities I have increased the penalty to what happens if the bond holder dies. In addition to d4 per level damage, the warder must make a Will save dc equal to the channeler's level +5 or become consumed with finding their own death. Care in another channeler's hands for a full month can give a second save.)
Gift of the Bond: +2 inherent bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution. In addition, the bonded character receives the Endurance and Die Hard feats.
Bond Sense: A bonded character can sense the direction, the general distance, and the general physical and emotional condition of the person to whom they're bonded. (injured/non-injured, any physical conditions, or any powerful mental conditions)
Shadow Sense: When within 30 feet of any shadowspawn, a Bonded character makes a Perception check to recognize their presence and general location. This check ignores cover, concealment, or any intervening barriers (Line of sight is not necessary), but the specific location and type of shadowspawn isn't revealed. The distance of Shadow Sense improves to 60 feet at 5th character level, 90 ft at 10th, 120 ft at 15th, and 150 ft feet at 20th character level.
Beyond the Bond: Not fleshed out, but this is what happens if their bond-holder dies. Negative levels is a good solution, as well as the loss of the benefits of the bond until they are re-bonded. Some form of Insanity score would be appropriate, too, or at least escalating and recurring Will saves vs. being suicidal (by means of throwing self into seemingly impossible situations).
I'm not the biggest fan of the Iron Will feat as a gimme, but I can kind of see it thematically. Obviously take or leave any of that.
Algai d'Siswai: My version of this was actually to mix the monk and the barbarian. The Aiel (as Lobolusk pointed out) are incredibly tough, and rely on speed, toughness, and pure combat bad-ass-ery to win fights. With that in mind, I gave them the barbarian chassis -- D12 HD, 4 skill points (barb skill list but added Stealth and removed Swim & Ride), Aiel weapon proficiencies (including the buckler as her only shield/armor available), Fast Movement (that actually improves once more at 10th level or so to +20), bonus feats (weapon focus/spec: with Aiel Spear), Flurry of Blows (unarmed, Aiel Spear, and Aiel knife only), Uncanny/Improved Uncanny Dodge, a Dance the Spears ability, a Stealthy feature, and Uncanny Initiative. Dance the Spears gives the AdS a 1/2 class level bonus to Initiative as well as the ability to add one more attack into a Flurry of Blows as a swift action a number of times per day equal to his AdS class level + his Wisdom modifier. Stealthy is a +2 to Stealth rolls, improving by an additional 2 at levels 8, 14, and 19. Uncanny Initiative (gained at 17), allows the AdS to always treat his initiative roll as a result of his choosing (from 1 to 20).
Armsman: For this guy, I basically started with the PF Fighter, with some changes. Bumped him up to 4 skill points per round. Then modified the ARmor Training class ability to mesh with the class's defense bonus. I upped the Armsman's class defense bonus to a more manageable level (for when the fighter isn't armored -- it seems to me that a person who trains for combat would spend at least some of his time learning to fight without his armor -- which should make him at least as good as a Wanderer unarmored). The addition to Armor Training is that (at level 3 and beyond), the Armsman may add his Armsman class defense bonus minus 3 to the AC bonus of whatever armor/shield he is wearing. This keeps his AC roughly equivalent to that of an Aiel (when armored in most armors), and pushes him into wearing armor for best AC numbers.
Wanderer: I took a little bit of a liberty with this one. I basically took the Rogue class, then went from there. They receive a Lucky or Good ability at 1st. They can basically choose to either take The Dark One's Own Luck or Skill Focus as a bonus feat at 1st level and every 3rd level thereafter. I added in Illicit Barter from the WoT Wanderer -- which basically adds a scaling bonus to Diplomacy checks to buy or sell illicit or illegal goods. Sneak Attack stayed as-is.. seems to go with the opportunistic combatant theme, but I could see this being swappable with something more "Wanderer-y". The rest of it is straight up PF rogue, removing any Rogue Talents that don't make sense in WoT (mostly magic-related stuff).
Woodsman: Pretty much just brought over the Ranger. I mean, I can see a version of a number of WoT characters using this class and it making sense. Hurin is a good example, as well as a number of other Borderlanders or Midlanders. The only thing I waffled on was the Animal Companion as an option. But eventually decided to leave it in because of Mandarb, Hopper, and Bela.
The Flame & the Void and Blademasters: To me, I think you could have a lot of fun with the Style feats, and force them to be useable with shortswords, longswords, and warder blades only (especially since there aren't many unarmed martial schools or styles in the books -- Aiel being the only one to come to mind). This would be all the different Forms of the blademaster training, and a number of them would be required before someone could qualify for the Blademaster Prc. Not sure I have many thoughts on if that PrC needs to be modified, though.
Other PF class archetypes: A handful of these make a lot of sense thematically. Two-Weapon Fighter for Arafellin swordsmen. ANy number of nautical/pirate archetypes for Sea Folk. Stuff like that.
Races: I like the idea of there basically being 3 races. Human, Human (Power-Sensitive), and Ogier. Basically, I would suggest that there be an alternate racial trait available to make humans Power-Sensitive, and they lose the bonus feat to do it (and possibly the extra skill point). This alternate racial trait could give the character the ability to touch the Source as a wilder. It should be difficult for them to do so, though they should gain the benefits of touching the source -- including the boosted senses, sensing the aura of other embracing characters (if female), and access to a few low-level weaves with a manifested level of 1. I think the only way they should be able to advance this ability is through class levels in the Channeler class.
Traits: I think this has already been said, but these should be available based on nationality/race.
This is about as far as I got.
Would love any feedback on my ideas, and how they mesh with other people's ideas.