So far, I like what I see a lot better than before.
First off, kudos on the Spell Blending ability. I HATE unique spell lists, as it means I need to go over my entire Spell Compendium + other WotC spells in other books that didn't make it into the SC, and add them to the spell list to make them equal to the core spellcasting classes. This solves my problem. I don't have to mess with the Magus spell list now. If a PC wants spells outside the Magus list, he can take that ability instead.
Which leaves me to Greater Pool Spell. Nice! This gives access to more spells outside their list, but at a HUGE cost in arcane pool points. A good sacrifice.
My only problems are I hope to see feats that let them get around a few things the Magus lacks, for example, Two Weapon Fighting, maybe a feat that allows a Magus to still use Spell Combat fighting with two weapons so that we can have some two-weapon Magus builds? Or even for Multiweapon Fighting. Don't forget, us DMs like to use classes for monsters, and a Magus Marilith would be fun to send after PCs!
The other issue I had was the amount of arcane points they receive. Only 1/2 level + Int bonus? That's extremely low. I was thinking more along the lines of class level + Int. bonus.
Two Weapon Fighting: let´s leave alternative class features for later, at this point I don´t expect to see anything other than the current version.
To be blunt if you are willing to suffer the -2 to attacks for spell combat and -2 for two weapon fighting and - the ability is worth about one arcana and a -2 to concentration checks.
A Magus only needs one hand free to use Spell Combat - a Marilith using only five scimitars is golden!
You are of course correct, but I have to add:
1 free hand and holding (at least) 1 light or one handed meele weapon in (an)other hand/(claw/tentacle).
Also you do not ignore the spell failure chance from shields.
The points in the pool are a mechanic taken from the monk, so I don´t see them changing it.
So far, I like what I see a lot better than before.
First off, kudos on the Spell Blending ability. I HATE unique spell lists, as it means I need to go over my entire Spell Compendium + other WotC spells in other books that didn't make it into the SC, and add them to the spell list to make them equal to the core spellcasting classes. This solves my problem. I don't have to mess with the Magus spell list now. If a PC wants spells outside the Magus list, he can take that ability instead.
Which leaves me to Greater Pool Spell. Nice! This gives access to more spells outside their list, but at a HUGE cost in arcane pool points. A good sacrifice.
My only problems are I hope to see feats that let them get around a few things the Magus lacks, for example, Two Weapon Fighting, maybe a feat that allows a Magus to still use Spell Combat fighting with two weapons so that we can have some two-weapon Magus builds? Or even for Multiweapon Fighting. Don't forget, us DMs like to use classes for monsters, and a Magus Marilith would be fun to send after PCs!
The other issue I had was the amount of arcane points they receive. Only 1/2 level + Int bonus? That's extremely low. I was thinking more along the lines of class level + Int. bonus.
It's like the monk's Ki Pool. You're supposed to have enough to get stuff done, but not so many that you never, ever run out.
Well then the costs of some of the abilities need to be lowered. I just fear the Magus will use up so many points right after he only uses 2 of his arcana for the day, even at higher levels. Or maybe some of the arcana need to have a longer duration than just "until next turn".
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Well then the costs of some of the abilities need to be lowered. I just fear the Magus will use up so many points right after he only uses 2 of his arcana for the day, even at higher levels. Or maybe some of the arcana need to have a longer duration than just "until next turn".
In my Arena-style playtest, the Magus had 8 points. He got through 5 fights in a row, CRs 4-8 and died at the CR 9. He had one Point left for the CR9 encounter. I probably could have saved a few points by not increasing my weapon's bonus for the early fights, though. I think at higher levels it's maybe more of a problem, though. The biggest increase in Points is from Int. It's fully half of the points of my playtest Magus. If I try to get through more fights at higher levels, I might be running pretty low.
Perhaps at level 10-ish the Magus deserves a bump of a couple extra points. Perhaps.
I have a feeling in Ultimate Magic Magus will get an Extra Arcane Pool feat to give him two more pool points.
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It's like the monk's Ki Pool. You're supposed to have enough to get stuff done, but not so many that you never, ever run out.
The most expensive thing I can remember off the top of my head for a monk is going ethereal for 3 points, at 19th level same time Magus gets greater spell pool. I understand why it was done, I just feel that the magus could use a bit more points in the pool, perhaps 3/4 level + int mod, same as his bab progression? Split the difference between 1/2 and full.
Looks good on paper (or pixels). "Spell Combat" using TWF as a model is a stroke of brilliance and really gets across the "slash/slash/KERZAP!!!" feel that a warrior-mage should have.
My personal wishlist would bring Medium Armor down to 5th level, or possibly go full BAB in order to get more slash/slash/KERZAP in sooner, but given that it's the same BAB and HD as a cleric that's just me being greedy really. ;)
It would seem to make the Eldritch Knight a bit superfluous, but I don't mind that -- to me the EK always seemed like it was just there to plug a mechanical hole anyway. If nothing else, this is a great class for that guy who always wants to play a Jedi Knight, regardless of the campaign genre. (Guilty!)
-The Gneech
The difference is the Monk only has to spend ONE ki point to accomplish one of the multiple uses for his ki pool that he has. Dimension Door was 2, and ethereal 3, and that's not that bad at all.
The Magus has to use more than 1 in many of his arcana abilities, which is really hurtful
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Well, we could look at the benefits that a Magis can get compared to a Monk. For the cost of one Arcana, the Magus can Haste himself for several rounds. A Monk can only get one round with an extra attack, not the bonus to hit, movement, or AC. Spending a Ki point can also get you a dodge bonus which is similar to the Spell Shield though a dodge bonus is better than a shield bonus by far.
Of course, without using any of your Arcana choices, you can increase significantly the number of spells per day and/or increase the enhancement bonus of your weapons.
It's worth noting, however, that the Monk is generally considered one of the weakest classes in the game and balancing the Magus against it is probably a losing proposition for making the Magus a good class.
I expect 2 feats will be in the book that are not yet in the playtest.
Extra Arcane Pool
Extra Magus Arcana
Fixed. Also, as much as I would love for Magus to get more Magus Arcana much like a rogue can now get more rogue talents, having more Magus Arcana is really powerful. I would be very surprised if such a feat will be implemented.
Would it be too powerful to make the Arcane Pool Points = to the magus' TOTAL class level + Int mod, rather than 1/2 class level + int mod?
Magus needs more points (at least the way I intend to play him)
I'd make it 'Your ki pool equals your BAB + Int mod.'
That should give him enough to prep the awesome damage/debilitating touch spells and use Knowledge Pool/Spell pool for those utility spells from his list/blended spells to spont cast them as needed.Never need to prep spells he 'Might' need.
Plus a Magus's to hit and damage suck. GMW is the first good melee buff he gets.
So more points allows a little bit of arcane accuracy spamming:)Also I've been trying to get the numbers up for his DPR with spells. At 20
Move + Attack:
Running 2Handed + spellstrike+furious focus+ PA+ Haste or hasted assault+5 Wpn+Gtr Wpn Focus+ Wpn Spl
at 20 his to hit is around +32 (Decent)
Damage is 40+spell (say a 10d6 touch spell w/save = Max 70, min 55)Full Attack:
Running Spell Combat+ PA+ 1handed+ Haste or Hasted Assault+ Furious Focus+5 Wpn+Gtr Wpn Focus+ Wpn Splat 20 To Hit is 30/25/20/15 (this is with haste only)
Damage is around 105+spell (say a 20d6 chain lightning)Arcane Accuracy is not needed for Spellstrike to hit, but is a must on a full attack to make them all hit (I'm assuming at least +9 Int by now, with a starting int of 19)
Hitting with all 4 gives 140 +spellNow obviously 140 dpr on a full attack on what is essentailly a martial char is crap compared to the Fighter 20 doing around 300 or more.
Now the added spell (in this case chain lightning) adds alot to the DPR on the full attack target (ave another 60 if the save is failed) and more to the secondary targets.
I'll have to playtest it some more to see if I'm happy with this (the main problem I see is endurance- the fighter doesn't run out of those 300 dpr full attacks. Even an Arcane Duelist bard does around 200, plus the DPR he's giving the party with bardsong)
The Magus looks good AS LONG as he still has the spells to use Spell Combat/Spellstrike EVERY round. Otherwise his DPR is crap.
So far between using Arcane Accuracy/Arcane Shield and the odd...
Assuming the magus can dish out ~100 damage with his melee full attack alone, I've been able to get about an additional 172 damage from spells..IN A SINGLE ROUND.
So, one poor smuck takes 272 damage, and everyone else in his cone of cold area takes 172 damage (before various resistances). That's on par with or better than a dedicated archer in terms of DPR (the difference being the archer has better range and lasting power, whereas the magus can hit multiple targets at once).
Never underestimate an intensified maximized cone of cold AND a quickened cone of cold when using in conjunction with a full attack.
Spell Perfection and metamagic for the win!
That's decent. Can you do it at least 1/encounter?
More like ~9/day if you are willing to use up all your highest level spell slots and arcane pool points.
What spell are you using to get another 175?
Preferred Maximised Chain Lightning?
Two spells: intensified maximized cone of cold (120) + quickened cone of cold (avg 52) = ~172
I think this is a really good, elegant fix. Not only that, but it doesn't totally ruin a multiclassed (or PrC'd) Magus.Magus needs more points (at least the way I intend to play him)
I'd make it 'Your ki pool equals your BAB + Int mod.'
Sorry but I have to dissagree here:
1. A multiclass magus 4 / fighter would not only have more pool points than a single class Magus.
2. With spell pool such a character would be able to use arcane accuray pretty much every round of every fight.
3.He can pool spell for a lot of additional spellpower.
One of the things that balanced the great arcanas compaired to the things the monk can do with his ki pool, is that a lot of abilites draw from the same pool:
Arcane pool
various Arcanas
Pool Spell
Knowledge Pool
Thats aside from his spellcasting about 40-60 % of his class abilities.
It would work better if it was Magus Arcana Pool is equal to 1/2 Magus level Plus 2x Int modifier. Possibly with a qualifier like the number of bonus points granted from Int modifier cannot exceed Magus level. It would have close to the same effect but wouldn't be as prone to abuse.
That said, I doubt we will see it. I'd expect a feat to add to the pool, and possibly another feat that adds extra arcana powers will be added in the final book instead.
I think (total class level) + (Intelligence modifier) would be better.
Most casters can get their primary casting stat in the 30s by high levels pretty easily.
With your method, a 20th-level magus with 30 Intelligence would have 30 arcana points, which seems like too much to me.
Under my method, the same magus would have 30 points, which seems just right.
:P
(You don't want to make Intelligence the end all be all of the magus.)
It would work better if it was Magus Arcana Pool is equal to 1/2 Magus level Plus 2x Int modifier. Possibly with a qualifier like the number of bonus points granted from Int modifier cannot exceed Magus level. It would have close to the same effect but wouldn't be as prone to abuse.
That said, I doubt we will see it. I'd expect a feat to add to the pool, and possibly another feat that adds extra arcana powers will be added in the final book instead.
I think (total class level) + (Intelligence modifier) would be better.
Most casters can get their primary casting stat in the 30s by high levels pretty easily.
With your method, a 20th-level magus with 30 Intelligence would have 30 arcana points, which seems like too much to me.
Under my method, the same magus would have 30 points, which seems just right.
:P
(You don't want to make Intelligence the end all be all of the magus.)
It would work better if it was Magus Arcana Pool is equal to 1/2 Magus level Plus 2x Int modifier. Possibly with a qualifier like the number of bonus points granted from Int modifier cannot exceed Magus level. It would have close to the same effect but wouldn't be as prone to abuse.
That said, I doubt we will see it. I'd expect a feat to add to the pool, and possibly another feat that adds extra arcana powers will be added in the final book instead.
Both of these are based on the idea that the magus doesn´t have enough points in his pool, I say he does have enough.
A Magus isn´t supposed to use arcane accurancy every round.
If you still feel that you don´t have enough points, take a extra points feat or maybe a "deep pool" arcana that increases the number of points.
I agree with banpai. The established point based power mechanic is being used. If they are "running out of points" perhaps they need adjustments to the durations or scope of the powers those points buy, rather than gifting them more points to nova with.
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It seems to me that there are two different kinds of Magi:
1) Those that choose stuff like Arcane Accuracy, Arcane Shield, and Hasted Assault for every arcana but Spell Blending.
and
2) Those that choose Concentrate, Empower, and Arcana like that.
Those in group 2 have plenty of points to enhance their weapon and occasionally Pool Spell.
Those in group 1 are all in here trying to convince Jason that the Magus needs more PP.
If you choose class features that burn up your points why are you so shocked and appalled that your points are getting all burned up? I think the Magus has a fair number of points. If you need more I'm sure there will be a feat for it.
Well, I did suggest if raising the points was a big deal, just make some of the arcana longer-lived. Several of them seem ridiculously short, IMO. I understand one shouldn't spam their abilities, but one shouldn't also have to constantly worry conserving their abilities.
There should be a happy medium. If you decide to spam a little one or two encounters, you should feel satisfied knowing you have just enough left to last a few more encounters if you conserve at that point. Or, if you don't spam, you then have enough to use sparingly in most encounters of the day.
Two points:
Magus to hit sucks. No good buff spells and this is a melee class. You need to burn points for arcane accuracy or your dpr gets worse.
All primary and secondary casters are expected to do some utility casting. A magus uses his slots to fix crap dpr so needs points to spontaneously cast utility spells.
I disagree. The magus' arcane pool buffs it from level 1, with enhancement bonuses that stack with existing bonuses. In general the stacking won't become an issue until around level 12, when the magus is likely to have a weapon with a +3 bonus before his arcane pool adds another +3 (at which point the magus has to make some choice as to whether that left over +1 is better spent as elemental damage).
That's without arcane accuracy which give the magus a huge buff to hit, akin to a paladin smite.
Though a bard might have higher end attacks after buffing, I'm thinking a magus can buff faster than the bard.
At lower levels you're right. We've been trying level 10, 12, 15, 17. The advantage erodes as you level. At 15 and up it doesn't really help besides versatility.
Bard 20 hits better than magus at high levels because his to hit and damage power fully stacks with whatever he's holding. And he can better buff with spells.
Magus to hit/damage power won't work as well for him as his weapon improves. He gets bugger all buff. He RELIES on spamming Arcane Accuracy.
A way around giving him more points would be to give him the v1 weapon bond ability and let him take arcane strike again. No consuming points for the enchantment means more points free for arcane accuracy and arcane strike brings his dpr up.
He would, with the current points given have enough for the day.
As it stands a 20th level magus with 30int has 20 points. So nearly 25% of his pool is spent just on his Wpn. the same on accuracy.
Leaving 10-12 points for spells (if you don't use arcane shield) thats enough for 2 or 3, 3rd level or better spont casts
Not to mention reflection- awesome way to burn your points
I may be missing something, but how is he spending 5 points on his weapon? Is this over 5 encounters in one day?
Arcane Accuracy is definitely a point sink since its only good for one round. That one might need its durance increased to a certain number of rounds (not many, maybe 1 per 4 levels). I can definitely see that some of the arcana could use some careful balancing.
In regards to the other points, the spell list is not set in stone. I imagine there will be some buffs in there, perhaps specific magus spells. Part of the reason they aren't in there is they wanted to see where a magus is lacking in combat, before deciding what buffs to add.
Though a bard might have higher end attacks after buffing, I'm thinking a magus can buff faster than the bard.
Probably not. A bard can get off a quickened spell, regular spell and his bardic music all in one round. The magus can full attack and cast a spell plus a quickened spell -- but that's it, and the full attack is only sometimes useful in this case (meaning getting the buffs off fast).
At level 20 that bard is going to get +4 from inspire courage, +2 from good hope and +1 from haste giving him +7 to hit +6 to damage an extra attack +2 to all saves, +4 versus fear and +3 on reflex saves finally netting a +1 to AC and Initiative... and his party is going to benefit from all of this as well.
The magus will get haste and another spell off... but that's it.
Now don't get me wrong -- I think the magus will work fine, but I don't think he'll ever buff faster or as well as the bard -- which is ok -- the bard is the buffing master.
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It lasted for 5 combats- with no utility casting in between.
I know Magus is not a straight caster but think about any bard you've played before. Do you NEVER use magic outside of combat. In my games at least even rangers and paladins will do some out of combat casting.
Bards cast cure spells and charms etc to help the party outside of combat. Even a selfish class like Inquisitors (who along with Arcane Duelist's are what we should be measuring a magus agaist) will do some out of combat healing/dispelling/condition relief.
With acces to any spell on his list via pool spell and later the wizard list, I can see (and have had to in games) provide a teleport/dispell etc.
Testing the spellpool in a vaccum does not reflect an adventuring day.
I'm not sure that expecting a Magus to do the utility that a Bard or Inquisitor provides is appropriate. I'd consider it about as appropriate as asking a Fighter to contribute to utility casting. It's very clearly not what the Magus was meant to do.
I'd agree that class level + int would be better (I'd prefer 15 points tied to bab rather than 20 class level- but someone pointed out that a dip full bab char could have more points than a magus, so that way is no good)
Tying it to BAB is indeed bad. It doesn't need to be higher at all. But lets keep going, shall we?
Spellpool should equal 4 or 5 combats, plus a little out of combat use.
It does. It already does. The level 8 Arena had the Magus with 1 point left after 5 encounters. That's 4 uses of weapon enhancement and a Pool Spelled Gaseous Form. Knock off the 5th encounter and you've got two points for out of combat usage. That's not bad.
Once the Magus got more points and Improved Pool Spell he had something like 5 points left after 5 combats. That's a lot for out of combat use.
Also- the menntioned playtests used almost no spellpool related casting. I've found it EXTREMELY useful to use it to regain spells used.
Blown your last DD for the day? Really need it? POOLSPELL ftw.
Used your 1/day maximise already? Unexpected BBEG? SPELLPOOL maximise ftw.
I assume you're talking about my playtest since you were responding to someone who quoted my example. I used Pool Spell whenever it was most beneficial in my opinion to do so. I didn't use it to recover spells much because I practiced good resource management for the most part and didn't need to. I had more spells.
I'm not sure how you can read my two playtests and think that there are insufficient points. I just don't think it would be balanced and I think my data and that of others shows it as well.
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It lasted for 5 combats- with no utility casting in between.
I know Magus is not a straight caster but think about any bard you've played before. Do you NEVER use magic outside of combat. In my games at least even rangers and paladins will do some out of combat casting.
Bards cast cure spells and charms etc to help the party outside of combat. Even a selfish class like Inquisitors (who along with Arcane Duelist's are what we should be measuring a magus agaist) will do some out of combat healing/dispelling/condition relief.
With acces to any spell on his list via pool spell and later the wizard list, I can see (and have had to in games) provide a teleport/dispell etc.
Testing the spellpool in a vaccum does not reflect an adventuring day.
I'm not sure that expecting a Magus to do the utility that a Bard or Inquisitor provides is appropriate. I'd consider it about as appropriate as asking a Fighter to contribute to utility casting. It's very clearly not what the Magus was meant to do.
I'd agree that class level + int would be better (I'd prefer 15 points tied to bab rather than 20 class level- but someone pointed out that a dip full bab char could have more points than a magus, so that way is no good)
Tying it to BAB is indeed bad. It doesn't need to be higher at all. But lets keep going, shall we?
Spellpool should equal 4 or 5 combats, plus a little out of combat use.
It does. It already does. The level 8 Arena had the Magus with 1 point left after 5 encounters. That's 4 uses of weapon enhancement and a Pool Spelled Gaseous Form. Knock off the 5th encounter and you've got two points for out of combat usage. That's not bad.
Once the Magus got more points and Improved Pool Spell he had something like 5 points left after 5 combats. That's a lot for out of combat use.
Also- the menntioned playtests used almost no spellpool related casting. I've found it EXTREMELY useful to use it to regain spells used.
Blown your last DD for the day? Really need it? POOLSPELL ftw.
Used your 1/day maximise already? Unexpected BBEG? SPELLPOOL maximise ftw.
I assume you're talking about my playtest since you were responding to someone who quoted my example. I used Pool Spell whenever it was most beneficial in my opinion to do so. I didn't use it to recover spells much because I practiced good resource management for the most part and didn't need to. I had more spells.
I'm not sure how you can read my two playtests and think that there are insufficient points. I just don't think it would be balanced and I think my data and that of others shows it as well.
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I agree in part with your comparison to the Inquisitor. But I also recognize that the Inquisitor is one of the most bad ass classes in the game. I found mine to be insanely awesome.
But I don't know why you're assuming that the Magus is only using a 10d6 damage spell. Why is he using a level 2 spell while the Inquisitor uses a level 4 for Divine Power? Now I think it much more liekly that the Magus also uses a level 4 slot for something like an Empowered Scorching Ray for 18 d6. It'll hit almost any enemy on anything but a 1 and do an average of 63 damage.
I think it's also worth nothing that the Inquisitor is burning two class abilities with a limited number of per day uses. If the Magus also uses just a single additional ability with a per day allowance he can freely quicken an additional spell (after he's used his swift action on his weapon enhancements or before). A quickened level 6 spell will add considerable additional damage.