My thoughts on the revised Magus


Round 3: Revised Magus Discussion

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So far, I like what I see a lot better than before.

First off, kudos on the Spell Blending ability. I HATE unique spell lists, as it means I need to go over my entire Spell Compendium + other WotC spells in other books that didn't make it into the SC, and add them to the spell list to make them equal to the core spellcasting classes. This solves my problem. I don't have to mess with the Magus spell list now. If a PC wants spells outside the Magus list, he can take that ability instead.

Which leaves me to Greater Pool Spell. Nice! This gives access to more spells outside their list, but at a HUGE cost in arcane pool points. A good sacrifice.

My only problems are I hope to see feats that let them get around a few things the Magus lacks, for example, Two Weapon Fighting, maybe a feat that allows a Magus to still use Spell Combat fighting with two weapons so that we can have some two-weapon Magus builds? Or even for Multiweapon Fighting. Don't forget, us DMs like to use classes for monsters, and a Magus Marilith would be fun to send after PCs!

The other issue I had was the amount of arcane points they receive. Only 1/2 level + Int bonus? That's extremely low. I was thinking more along the lines of class level + Int. bonus.


Two Weapon Fighting: let´s leave alternative class features for later, at this point I don´t expect to see anything other than the current version.

To be blunt if you are willing to suffer the -2 to attacks for spell combat and -2 for two weapon fighting and - the ability is worth about one arcana and a -2 to concentration checks.

The Exchange

A Magus only needs one hand free to use Spell Combat - a Marilith using only five scimitars is golden!


ProfPotts wrote:
A Magus only needs one hand free to use Spell Combat - a Marilith using only five scimitars is golden!

You are of course correct, but I have to add:

1 free hand and holding (at least) 1 light or one handed meele weapon in (an)other hand/(claw/tentacle).

Also you do not ignore the spell failure chance from shields.

The points in the pool are a mechanic taken from the monk, so I don´t see them changing it.


Razz wrote:

So far, I like what I see a lot better than before.

First off, kudos on the Spell Blending ability. I HATE unique spell lists, as it means I need to go over my entire Spell Compendium + other WotC spells in other books that didn't make it into the SC, and add them to the spell list to make them equal to the core spellcasting classes. This solves my problem. I don't have to mess with the Magus spell list now. If a PC wants spells outside the Magus list, he can take that ability instead.

Which leaves me to Greater Pool Spell. Nice! This gives access to more spells outside their list, but at a HUGE cost in arcane pool points. A good sacrifice.

My only problems are I hope to see feats that let them get around a few things the Magus lacks, for example, Two Weapon Fighting, maybe a feat that allows a Magus to still use Spell Combat fighting with two weapons so that we can have some two-weapon Magus builds? Or even for Multiweapon Fighting. Don't forget, us DMs like to use classes for monsters, and a Magus Marilith would be fun to send after PCs!

The other issue I had was the amount of arcane points they receive. Only 1/2 level + Int bonus? That's extremely low. I was thinking more along the lines of class level + Int. bonus.

It's like the monk's Ki Pool. You're supposed to have enough to get stuff done, but not so many that you never, ever run out.


Well then the costs of some of the abilities need to be lowered. I just fear the Magus will use up so many points right after he only uses 2 of his arcana for the day, even at higher levels. Or maybe some of the arcana need to have a longer duration than just "until next turn".

Dark Archive

Razz wrote:
Well then the costs of some of the abilities need to be lowered. I just fear the Magus will use up so many points right after he only uses 2 of his arcana for the day, even at higher levels. Or maybe some of the arcana need to have a longer duration than just "until next turn".

In my Arena-style playtest, the Magus had 8 points. He got through 5 fights in a row, CRs 4-8 and died at the CR 9. He had one Point left for the CR9 encounter. I probably could have saved a few points by not increasing my weapon's bonus for the early fights, though. I think at higher levels it's maybe more of a problem, though. The biggest increase in Points is from Int. It's fully half of the points of my playtest Magus. If I try to get through more fights at higher levels, I might be running pretty low.

Perhaps at level 10-ish the Magus deserves a bump of a couple extra points. Perhaps.


I have a feeling in Ultimate Magic Magus will get an Extra Arcane Pool feat to give him two more pool points.

Shadow Lodge

Ashram wrote:


It's like the monk's Ki Pool. You're supposed to have enough to get stuff done, but not so many that you never, ever run out.

The most expensive thing I can remember off the top of my head for a monk is going ethereal for 3 points, at 19th level same time Magus gets greater spell pool. I understand why it was done, I just feel that the magus could use a bit more points in the pool, perhaps 3/4 level + int mod, same as his bab progression? Split the difference between 1/2 and full.


Looks good on paper (or pixels). "Spell Combat" using TWF as a model is a stroke of brilliance and really gets across the "slash/slash/KERZAP!!!" feel that a warrior-mage should have.

My personal wishlist would bring Medium Armor down to 5th level, or possibly go full BAB in order to get more slash/slash/KERZAP in sooner, but given that it's the same BAB and HD as a cleric that's just me being greedy really. ;)

It would seem to make the Eldritch Knight a bit superfluous, but I don't mind that -- to me the EK always seemed like it was just there to plug a mechanical hole anyway. If nothing else, this is a great class for that guy who always wants to play a Jedi Knight, regardless of the campaign genre. (Guilty!)

-The Gneech


The difference is the Monk only has to spend ONE ki point to accomplish one of the multiple uses for his ki pool that he has. Dimension Door was 2, and ethereal 3, and that's not that bad at all.

The Magus has to use more than 1 in many of his arcana abilities, which is really hurtful

Dark Archive

Well, we could look at the benefits that a Magis can get compared to a Monk. For the cost of one Arcana, the Magus can Haste himself for several rounds. A Monk can only get one round with an extra attack, not the bonus to hit, movement, or AC. Spending a Ki point can also get you a dodge bonus which is similar to the Spell Shield though a dodge bonus is better than a shield bonus by far.

Of course, without using any of your Arcana choices, you can increase significantly the number of spells per day and/or increase the enhancement bonus of your weapons.

It's worth noting, however, that the Monk is generally considered one of the weakest classes in the game and balancing the Magus against it is probably a losing proposition for making the Magus a good class.


Magus needs more points (at least the way I intend to play him)

I'd make it 'Your ki pool equals your BAB + Int mod.'
That should give him enough to prep the awesome damage/debilitating touch spells and use Knowledge Pool/Spell pool for those utility spells from his list/blended spells to spont cast them as needed.

Never need to prep spells he 'Might' need.

Plus a Magus's to hit and damage suck. GMW is the first good melee buff he gets.
So more points allows a little bit of arcane accuracy spamming:)

Also I've been trying to get the numbers up for his DPR with spells. At 20

Move + Attack:
Running 2Handed + spellstrike+furious focus+ PA+ Haste or hasted assault+5 Wpn+Gtr Wpn Focus+ Wpn Spl
at 20 his to hit is around +32 (Decent)
Damage is 40+spell (say a 10d6 touch spell w/save = Max 70, min 55)

Full Attack:
Running Spell Combat+ PA+ 1handed+ Haste or Hasted Assault+ Furious Focus+5 Wpn+Gtr Wpn Focus+ Wpn Spl

at 20 To Hit is 30/25/20/15 (this is with haste only)
Damage is around 105+spell (say a 20d6 chain lightning)

Arcane Accuracy is not needed for Spellstrike to hit, but is a must on a full attack to make them all hit (I'm assuming at least +9 Int by now, with a starting int of 19)
Hitting with all 4 gives 140 +spell

Now obviously 140 dpr on a full attack on what is essentailly a martial char is crap compared to the Fighter 20 doing around 300 or more.

Now the added spell (in this case chain lightning) adds alot to the DPR on the full attack target (ave another 60 if the save is failed) and more to the secondary targets.

I'll have to playtest it some more to see if I'm happy with this (the main problem I see is endurance- the fighter doesn't run out of those 300 dpr full attacks. Even an Arcane Duelist bard does around 200, plus the DPR he's giving the party with bardsong)

The Magus looks good AS LONG as he still has the spells to use Spell Combat/Spellstrike EVERY round. Otherwise his DPR is crap.

So far between using Arcane Accuracy/Arcane Shield and the odd spont utility spell (out of combat) I've been running out of Spell Points. And using spells runs out quick.

By having BAB+Int spell points you'd have more endurance as you could use Pool Spells to spont spell combat when your prepped spells run out.

Cheers.


I expect 2 feats will be in the book that are not yet in the playtest.

Additional Spell Pool

Extra Magus Arcana

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
YuenglingDragon wrote:
Razz wrote:
Well then the costs of some of the abilities need to be lowered. I just fear the Magus will use up so many points right after he only uses 2 of his arcana for the day, even at higher levels. Or maybe some of the arcana need to have a longer duration than just "until next turn".

In my Arena-style playtest, the Magus had 8 points. He got through 5 fights in a row, CRs 4-8 and died at the CR 9. He had one Point left for the CR9 encounter. I probably could have saved a few points by not increasing my weapon's bonus for the early fights, though. I think at higher levels it's maybe more of a problem, though. The biggest increase in Points is from Int. It's fully half of the points of my playtest Magus. If I try to get through more fights at higher levels, I might be running pretty low.

Perhaps at level 10-ish the Magus deserves a bump of a couple extra points. Perhaps.

This is a classic example of the limits of theorycraft vs an actual playtest. Thanks YD. One thing that's worth noting is that the higher level Magus will be getting significant bumps in spell options as well. Ideally the arcana pool should leave a Magus hovering on the edge of starvation, even pushing her over that line every now and then.


Jason Ellis 350 wrote:

I expect 2 feats will be in the book that are not yet in the playtest.

Extra Arcane Pool

Extra Magus Arcana

Fixed. Also, as much as I would love for Magus to get more Magus Arcana much like a rogue can now get more rogue talents, having more Magus Arcana is really powerful. I would be very surprised if such a feat will be implemented.


Ashram wrote:
Also, as much as I would love for Magus to get more Magus Arcana much like a rogue can now get more rogue talents, having more Magus Arcana is really powerful. I would be very surprised if such a feat will be implemented.

It isn't any more powerful than Extra Hex, Revelation, or Discovery are for the Witch, Oracle, and Alchemist.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Would it be too powerful to make the Arcane Pool Points = to the magus' TOTAL class level + Int mod, rather than 1/2 class level + int mod?

Ardenup wrote:

Magus needs more points (at least the way I intend to play him)

I'd make it 'Your ki pool equals your BAB + Int mod.'
That should give him enough to prep the awesome damage/debilitating touch spells and use Knowledge Pool/Spell pool for those utility spells from his list/blended spells to spont cast them as needed.

Never need to prep spells he 'Might' need.

Plus a Magus's to hit and damage suck. GMW is the first good melee buff he gets.
So more points allows a little bit of arcane accuracy spamming:)

Also I've been trying to get the numbers up for his DPR with spells. At 20

Move + Attack:
Running 2Handed + spellstrike+furious focus+ PA+ Haste or hasted assault+5 Wpn+Gtr Wpn Focus+ Wpn Spl
at 20 his to hit is around +32 (Decent)
Damage is 40+spell (say a 10d6 touch spell w/save = Max 70, min 55)

Full Attack:
Running Spell Combat+ PA+ 1handed+ Haste or Hasted Assault+ Furious Focus+5 Wpn+Gtr Wpn Focus+ Wpn Spl

at 20 To Hit is 30/25/20/15 (this is with haste only)
Damage is around 105+spell (say a 20d6 chain lightning)

Arcane Accuracy is not needed for Spellstrike to hit, but is a must on a full attack to make them all hit (I'm assuming at least +9 Int by now, with a starting int of 19)
Hitting with all 4 gives 140 +spell

Now obviously 140 dpr on a full attack on what is essentailly a martial char is crap compared to the Fighter 20 doing around 300 or more.

Now the added spell (in this case chain lightning) adds alot to the DPR on the full attack target (ave another 60 if the save is failed) and more to the secondary targets.

I'll have to playtest it some more to see if I'm happy with this (the main problem I see is endurance- the fighter doesn't run out of those 300 dpr full attacks. Even an Arcane Duelist bard does around 200, plus the DPR he's giving the party with bardsong)

The Magus looks good AS LONG as he still has the spells to use Spell Combat/Spellstrike EVERY round. Otherwise his DPR is crap.

So far between using Arcane Accuracy/Arcane Shield and the odd...

Assuming the magus can dish out ~100 damage with his melee full attack alone, I've been able to get about an additional 172 damage from spells..IN A SINGLE ROUND.

So, one poor smuck takes 272 damage, and everyone else in his cone of cold area takes 172 damage (before various resistances). That's on par with or better than a dedicated archer in terms of DPR (the difference being the archer has better range and lasting power, whereas the magus can hit multiple targets at once).

Never underestimate an intensified maximized cone of cold AND a quickened cone of cold when using in conjunction with a full attack.

Spell Perfection and metamagic for the win!


That's decent. Can you do it at least 1/encounter?


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Ardenup wrote:
That's decent. Can you do it at least 1/encounter?

More like ~9/day if you are willing to use up all your highest level spell slots and arcane pool points.

Shadow Lodge

Ardenup wrote:

Magus needs more points (at least the way I intend to play him)

I'd make it 'Your ki pool equals your BAB + Int mod.'

I think this is a really good, elegant fix. Not only that, but it doesn't totally ruin a multiclassed (or PrC'd) Magus.


Varthanna wrote:
Ardenup wrote:

Magus needs more points (at least the way I intend to play him)

I'd make it 'Your ki pool equals your BAB + Int mod.'

I think this is a really good, elegant fix. Not only that, but it doesn't totally ruin a multiclassed (or PrC'd) Magus.

j

Thankyou.

;)


Ravingdork wrote:
Ardenup wrote:
That's decent. Can you do it at least 1/encounter?
More like ~9/day if you are willing to use up all your highest level spell slots and arcane pool points..

.

Getting the ~100+Full attack is easy.

Hasted Assault/Arcane Accuracy on a high str (or dex if you go Dervish Dance route) with Gtr Weapon Fcs will hit 3 or 4 times.

What spell are you using to get another 175?
Preferred Maximised Chain Lightning?


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Ardenup wrote:

What spell are you using to get another 175?

Preferred Maximised Chain Lightning?

Two spells: intensified maximized cone of cold (120) + quickened cone of cold (avg 52) = ~172


Varthanna wrote:
Ardenup wrote:

Magus needs more points (at least the way I intend to play him)

I'd make it 'Your ki pool equals your BAB + Int mod.'

I think this is a really good, elegant fix. Not only that, but it doesn't totally ruin a multiclassed (or PrC'd) Magus.

Sorry but I have to dissagree here:

1. A multiclass magus 4 / fighter would not only have more pool points than a single class Magus.

2. With spell pool such a character would be able to use arcane accuray pretty much every round of every fight.

3.He can pool spell for a lot of additional spellpower.

One of the things that balanced the great arcanas compaired to the things the monk can do with his ki pool, is that a lot of abilites draw from the same pool:

Arcane pool
various Arcanas
Pool Spell
Knowledge Pool

Thats aside from his spellcasting about 40-60 % of his class abilities.


It would work better if it was Magus Arcana Pool is equal to 1/2 Magus level Plus 2x Int modifier. Possibly with a qualifier like the number of bonus points granted from Int modifier cannot exceed Magus level. It would have close to the same effect but wouldn't be as prone to abuse.

That said, I doubt we will see it. I'd expect a feat to add to the pool, and possibly another feat that adds extra arcana powers will be added in the final book instead.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Jason Ellis 350 wrote:

It would work better if it was Magus Arcana Pool is equal to 1/2 Magus level Plus 2x Int modifier. Possibly with a qualifier like the number of bonus points granted from Int modifier cannot exceed Magus level. It would have close to the same effect but wouldn't be as prone to abuse.

That said, I doubt we will see it. I'd expect a feat to add to the pool, and possibly another feat that adds extra arcana powers will be added in the final book instead.

I think (total class level) + (Intelligence modifier) would be better.

Most casters can get their primary casting stat in the 30s by high levels pretty easily.

With your method, a 20th-level magus with 30 Intelligence would have 30 arcana points, which seems like too much to me.

Under my method, the same magus would have 30 points, which seems just right.

:P

(You don't want to make Intelligence the end all be all of the magus.)


Ravingdork wrote:
Jason Ellis 350 wrote:

It would work better if it was Magus Arcana Pool is equal to 1/2 Magus level Plus 2x Int modifier. Possibly with a qualifier like the number of bonus points granted from Int modifier cannot exceed Magus level. It would have close to the same effect but wouldn't be as prone to abuse.

That said, I doubt we will see it. I'd expect a feat to add to the pool, and possibly another feat that adds extra arcana powers will be added in the final book instead.

I think (total class level) + (Intelligence modifier) would be better.

Most casters can get their primary casting stat in the 30s by high levels pretty easily.

With your method, a 20th-level magus with 30 Intelligence would have 30 arcana points, which seems like too much to me.

Under my method, the same magus would have 30 points, which seems just right.

:P

(You don't want to make Intelligence the end all be all of the magus.)

Jason Ellis 350 wrote:

It would work better if it was Magus Arcana Pool is equal to 1/2 Magus level Plus 2x Int modifier. Possibly with a qualifier like the number of bonus points granted from Int modifier cannot exceed Magus level. It would have close to the same effect but wouldn't be as prone to abuse.

That said, I doubt we will see it. I'd expect a feat to add to the pool, and possibly another feat that adds extra arcana powers will be added in the final book instead.

Both of these are based on the idea that the magus doesn´t have enough points in his pool, I say he does have enough.

A Magus isn´t supposed to use arcane accurancy every round.

If you still feel that you don´t have enough points, take a extra points feat or maybe a "deep pool" arcana that increases the number of points.


I agree with banpai. The established point based power mechanic is being used. If they are "running out of points" perhaps they need adjustments to the durations or scope of the powers those points buy, rather than gifting them more points to nova with.

Dark Archive

It seems to me that there are two different kinds of Magi:

1) Those that choose stuff like Arcane Accuracy, Arcane Shield, and Hasted Assault for every arcana but Spell Blending.

and

2) Those that choose Concentrate, Empower, and Arcana like that.

Those in group 2 have plenty of points to enhance their weapon and occasionally Pool Spell.

Those in group 1 are all in here trying to convince Jason that the Magus needs more PP.

If you choose class features that burn up your points why are you so shocked and appalled that your points are getting all burned up? I think the Magus has a fair number of points. If you need more I'm sure there will be a feat for it.


Personally I think that 1/2 level Plus Int will work fine. If I play one that truly needs a couple more then I can always burn a feat (provided such a feat is in the game.)

Any magus I play will probably straddle between the YuenglingDragon's frist and second option. One or two Arcana to burn for short term bonuses and another one or two that work without burning points.


Two points:

Magus to hit sucks. No good buff spells and this is a melee class. You need to burn points for arcane accuracy or your dpr gets worse.

All primary and secondary casters are expected to do some utility casting. A magus uses his slots to fix crap dpr so needs points to spontaneously cast utility spells.


Well, I did suggest if raising the points was a big deal, just make some of the arcana longer-lived. Several of them seem ridiculously short, IMO. I understand one shouldn't spam their abilities, but one shouldn't also have to constantly worry conserving their abilities.

There should be a happy medium. If you decide to spam a little one or two encounters, you should feel satisfied knowing you have just enough left to last a few more encounters if you conserve at that point. Or, if you don't spam, you then have enough to use sparingly in most encounters of the day.


Ardenup wrote:

Two points:

Magus to hit sucks. No good buff spells and this is a melee class. You need to burn points for arcane accuracy or your dpr gets worse.

All primary and secondary casters are expected to do some utility casting. A magus uses his slots to fix crap dpr so needs points to spontaneously cast utility spells.

I disagree. The magus' arcane pool buffs it from level 1, with enhancement bonuses that stack with existing bonuses. In general the stacking won't become an issue until around level 12, when the magus is likely to have a weapon with a +3 bonus before his arcane pool adds another +3 (at which point the magus has to make some choice as to whether that left over +1 is better spent as elemental damage).

That's without arcane accuracy which give the magus a huge buff to hit, akin to a paladin smite.


At lower levels you're right. We've been trying level 10, 12, 15, 17. The advantage erodes as you level. At 15 and up it doesn't really help besides versatility.

Bard 20 hits better than magus at high levels because his to hit and damage power fully stacks with whatever he's holding. And he can better buff with spells.

Magus to hit/damage power won't work as well for him as his weapon improves. He gets bugger all buff. He RELIES on spamming Arcane Accuracy.

A way around giving him more points would be to give him the v1 weapon bond ability and let him take arcane strike again. No consuming points for the enchantment means more points free for arcane accuracy and arcane strike brings his dpr up.

He would, with the current points given have enough for the day.

As it stands a 20th level magus with 30int has 20 points. So nearly 25% of his pool is spent just on his Wpn. the same on accuracy.

Leaving 10-12 points for spells (if you don't use arcane shield) thats enough for 2 or 3, 3rd level or better spont casts

Not to mention reflection- awesome way to burn your points


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Though a bard might have higher end attacks after buffing, I'm thinking a magus can buff faster than the bard.


Ardenup wrote:

At lower levels you're right. We've been trying level 10, 12, 15, 17. The advantage erodes as you level. At 15 and up it doesn't really help besides versatility.

Bard 20 hits better than magus at high levels because his to hit and damage power fully stacks with whatever he's holding. And he can better buff with spells.

Magus to hit/damage power won't work as well for him as his weapon improves. He gets bugger all buff. He RELIES on spamming Arcane Accuracy.

A way around giving him more points would be to give him the v1 weapon bond ability and let him take arcane strike again. No consuming points for the enchantment means more points free for arcane accuracy and arcane strike brings his dpr up.

He would, with the current points given have enough for the day.

As it stands a 20th level magus with 30int has 20 points. So nearly 25% of his pool is spent just on his Wpn. the same on accuracy.

Leaving 10-12 points for spells (if you don't use arcane shield) thats enough for 2 or 3, 3rd level or better spont casts

Not to mention reflection- awesome way to burn your points

I may be missing something, but how is he spending 5 points on his weapon? Is this over 5 encounters in one day?

Arcane Accuracy is definitely a point sink since its only good for one round. That one might need its durance increased to a certain number of rounds (not many, maybe 1 per 4 levels). I can definitely see that some of the arcana could use some careful balancing.

In regards to the other points, the spell list is not set in stone. I imagine there will be some buffs in there, perhaps specific magus spells. Part of the reason they aren't in there is they wanted to see where a magus is lacking in combat, before deciding what buffs to add.


I was allowing 4 or 5 fights a day.

If arcane accracy lasted 1rd/5 levels that would work.
or
I believe Jason said they preffered to stay away from spells but they only need one good buff.

Divine Favor would be excellent. (Bad name for arcane caster)
or
Wrath (from APG) but it's kinda limited, basically divine favor vs 1 enemy + bonus to overcome SR. It's cheap for Spell Pool since it's a 1st level spell, personal only and lasts a minute

Perfect.

Ran the numbers and this improves DPR nicely (still not stratospheric levels but worthwhile).

This added to the list would be a great addition and in the theme of 'selfish blasty/stabby guy'.

;)


I think simply making the arcana pool equal to the intelligence modifier + level (instead of 1/2 level) would be sufficient. Still not too many at lower levels but it scales reasonably.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
YuenglingDragon wrote:
Razz wrote:
Well then the costs of some of the abilities need to be lowered. I just fear the Magus will use up so many points right after he only uses 2 of his arcana for the day, even at higher levels. Or maybe some of the arcana need to have a longer duration than just "until next turn".

In my Arena-style playtest, the Magus had 8 points. He got through 5 fights in a row, CRs 4-8 and died at the CR 9. He had one Point left for the CR9 encounter. I probably could have saved a few points by not increasing my weapon's bonus for the early fights, though. I think at higher levels it's maybe more of a problem, though. The biggest increase in Points is from Int. It's fully half of the points of my playtest Magus. If I try to get through more fights at higher levels, I might be running pretty low.

Perhaps at level 10-ish the Magus deserves a bump of a couple extra points. Perhaps.

If the Arcane Pool lasted for 5 combats, then the budget is about right.


It lasted for 5 combats- with no utility casting in between.

I know Magus is not a straight caster but think about any bard you've played before. Do you NEVER use magic outside of combat. In my games at least even rangers and paladins will do some out of combat casting.

Bards cast cure spells and charms etc to help the party outside of combat. Even a selfish class like Inquisitors (who along with Arcane Duelist's are what we should be measuring a magus agaist) will do some out of combat healing/dispelling/condition relief.

With acces to any spell on his list via pool spell and later the wizard list, I can see (and have had to in games) provide a teleport/dispell etc.

Testing the spellpool in a vaccum does not reflect an adventuring day.

I'd agree that class level + int would be better (I'd prefer 15 points tied to bab rather than 20 class level- but someone pointed out that a dip full bab char could have more points than a magus, so that way is no good)

Spellpool should equal 4 or 5 combats, plus a little out of combat use.

Also- the menntioned playtests used almost no spellpool related casting. I've found it EXTREMELY useful to use it to regain spells used.
Blown your last DD for the day? Really need it? POOLSPELL ftw.
Used your 1/day maximise already? Unexpected BBEG? SPELLPOOL maximise ftw.

Cheers.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ardenup wrote:

It lasted for 5 combats- with no utility casting in between.

I know Magus is not a straight caster but think about any bard you've played before. Do you NEVER use magic outside of combat. In my games at least even rangers and paladins will do some out of combat casting.

The Magus is not a wizard nor is he a bard... he's a warcaster, the least concerned of all arcanists with magic that's not directly related to combat. Given that in mind he has a few noncombat spells like detect magic, read magic, floating disk, mount, teleport etc. And he can cantrip with the best of them. He can cast all of the above without spending points from the pool. And he's a heck of a lot more flexible than the original warmage.

The standard budget is for four significant encounters a day. If he's managing 5 than that says the present pool size is adequate.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ardenup wrote:

At lower levels you're right. We've been trying level 10, 12, 15, 17. The advantage erodes as you level. At 15 and up it doesn't really help besides versatility.

Bard 20 hits better than magus at high levels because his to hit and damage power fully stacks with whatever he's holding. And he can better buff with spells.

Which is fine... the Magus has far more offensive spell capability than the Bard does. Factor that in and that makes up for the deficit in melee.


Ravingdork wrote:
Though a bard might have higher end attacks after buffing, I'm thinking a magus can buff faster than the bard.

Probably not. A bard can get off a quickened spell, regular spell and his bardic music all in one round. The magus can full attack and cast a spell plus a quickened spell -- but that's it, and the full attack is only sometimes useful in this case (meaning getting the buffs off fast).

At level 20 that bard is going to get +4 from inspire courage, +2 from good hope and +1 from haste giving him +7 to hit +6 to damage an extra attack +2 to all saves, +4 versus fear and +3 on reflex saves finally netting a +1 to AC and Initiative... and his party is going to benefit from all of this as well.

The magus will get haste and another spell off... but that's it.

Now don't get me wrong -- I think the magus will work fine, but I don't think he'll ever buff faster or as well as the bard -- which is ok -- the bard is the buffing master.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Abraham spalding wrote:


Now don't get me wrong -- I think the magus will work fine, but I don't think he'll ever buff faster or as well as the bard -- which is ok -- the bard is the buffing master.

That's correct.. the Magus is not about buffing... he's about laying down hurt with a little bit of battlefield control, just enough to spice up the mixture.

Dark Archive

Ardenup wrote:

It lasted for 5 combats- with no utility casting in between.

I know Magus is not a straight caster but think about any bard you've played before. Do you NEVER use magic outside of combat. In my games at least even rangers and paladins will do some out of combat casting.

Bards cast cure spells and charms etc to help the party outside of combat. Even a selfish class like Inquisitors (who along with Arcane Duelist's are what we should be measuring a magus agaist) will do some out of combat healing/dispelling/condition relief.

With acces to any spell on his list via pool spell and later the wizard list, I can see (and have had to in games) provide a teleport/dispell etc.

Testing the spellpool in a vaccum does not reflect an adventuring day.

I'm not sure that expecting a Magus to do the utility that a Bard or Inquisitor provides is appropriate. I'd consider it about as appropriate as asking a Fighter to contribute to utility casting. It's very clearly not what the Magus was meant to do.

Ardenup wrote:
I'd agree that class level + int would be better (I'd prefer 15 points tied to bab rather than 20 class level- but someone pointed out that a dip full bab char could have more points than a magus, so that way is no good)

Tying it to BAB is indeed bad. It doesn't need to be higher at all. But lets keep going, shall we?

Ardenup wrote:
Spellpool should equal 4 or 5 combats, plus a little out of combat use.

It does. It already does. The level 8 Arena had the Magus with 1 point left after 5 encounters. That's 4 uses of weapon enhancement and a Pool Spelled Gaseous Form. Knock off the 5th encounter and you've got two points for out of combat usage. That's not bad.

Once the Magus got more points and Improved Pool Spell he had something like 5 points left after 5 combats. That's a lot for out of combat use.

Ardenup wrote:

Also- the menntioned playtests used almost no spellpool related casting. I've found it EXTREMELY useful to use it to regain spells used.

Blown your last DD for the day? Really need it? POOLSPELL ftw.
Used your 1/day maximise already? Unexpected BBEG? SPELLPOOL maximise ftw.

I assume you're talking about my playtest since you were responding to someone who quoted my example. I used Pool Spell whenever it was most beneficial in my opinion to do so. I didn't use it to recover spells much because I practiced good resource management for the most part and didn't need to. I had more spells.

I'm not sure how you can read my two playtests and think that there are insufficient points. I just don't think it would be balanced and I think my data and that of others shows it as well.

Dark Archive

Ardenup wrote:

It lasted for 5 combats- with no utility casting in between.

I know Magus is not a straight caster but think about any bard you've played before. Do you NEVER use magic outside of combat. In my games at least even rangers and paladins will do some out of combat casting.

Bards cast cure spells and charms etc to help the party outside of combat. Even a selfish class like Inquisitors (who along with Arcane Duelist's are what we should be measuring a magus agaist) will do some out of combat healing/dispelling/condition relief.

With acces to any spell on his list via pool spell and later the wizard list, I can see (and have had to in games) provide a teleport/dispell etc.

Testing the spellpool in a vaccum does not reflect an adventuring day.

I'm not sure that expecting a Magus to do the utility that a Bard or Inquisitor provides is appropriate. I'd consider it about as appropriate as asking a Fighter to contribute to utility casting. It's very clearly not what the Magus was meant to do.

Ardenup wrote:
I'd agree that class level + int would be better (I'd prefer 15 points tied to bab rather than 20 class level- but someone pointed out that a dip full bab char could have more points than a magus, so that way is no good)

Tying it to BAB is indeed bad. It doesn't need to be higher at all. But lets keep going, shall we?

Ardenup wrote:
Spellpool should equal 4 or 5 combats, plus a little out of combat use.

It does. It already does. The level 8 Arena had the Magus with 1 point left after 5 encounters. That's 4 uses of weapon enhancement and a Pool Spelled Gaseous Form. Knock off the 5th encounter and you've got two points for out of combat usage. That's not bad.

Once the Magus got more points and Improved Pool Spell he had something like 5 points left after 5 combats. That's a lot for out of combat use.

Ardenup wrote:

Also- the menntioned playtests used almost no spellpool related casting. I've found it EXTREMELY useful to use it to regain spells used.

Blown your last DD for the day? Really need it? POOLSPELL ftw.
Used your 1/day maximise already? Unexpected BBEG? SPELLPOOL maximise ftw.

I assume you're talking about my playtest since you were responding to someone who quoted my example. I used Pool Spell whenever it was most beneficial in my opinion to do so. I didn't use it to recover spells much because I practiced good resource management for the most part and didn't need to. I had more spells.

I'm not sure how you can read my two playtests and think that there are insufficient points. I just don't think it would be balanced and I think my data and that of others shows it as well.


1st- apologies about the playtest. I had one in my head where someone else on the board pitted a magus vs a giant and later an earth elemental. I thought on a build with Desperate Focus Trait+ Combat Casting a check might have been made to poolspell a dimension door.

Also vs the elemental a fly spell was waited out- again this could have been recovered to get off the ground.

When we've been palying I generally have prepped nearly all DD combat spells and used spell pool for my (limited) utility/defensive spells- Shield, Fly, Dimension Door, invisibility being most common. This is because they are (resonably) cheap and may not be needed.

As for other spellpool usage, Compare Inquisitor vs Magus (both selfish melee casters)

Inquisitor at 20 (22 Str)

Attack:
Attack =15 +5(Justice) +5(enhancement)+ 3(belt of physical perfection) +6(str)+ 1(Wpn Fcs)- 5(PA)=30/25/20 (+31/31/26/21 for boots of speed). You're just a spell from Full BAB.
[b]Full attack/Haste/Bane
= 33/33/28/23
Full Attack/Divine Power =36/36/31/26
Full Attack/Divine Power/Bane= 38/38/33/28.

Magus at 20

Attack:
[BAB15 +2 (Weapon Focus, Gtr) +6(STR) +3(Belt of Physical Perfection) +5(wpn enhancement) -5(PA)-2(Spell Combat)=24/19/14
Full attack/Haste= 25/25/20/15
Full attack/Haste/Arcane Accuracy (assume 30 int)= 35/35/30/25(for 1 round) .

So a magus doing his main thing (normal full attack) is about -6 lower on to hit than the divine melee caster guy with the same prep time.
A magus can blow a spell point to lessen this disadvantage to -3 IF he has a 30 int (a little hard for a MAD class, but doable).
Also keep in mind this would be worse had the magus not taken Gtr Weapon Focus with a bonus feat.

Damage:
DamageInquisitor:
Damage w/destruction is d8 +13(1.5 x str w/belt)+15(PA)+5(enhancement) +7 (Destruction)+1d6(sonic)= 47 per hit
Bane=+2(bane enhancement)+ 4d6(gtr bane ability)= 61 per hit
Divine Power/Bane= 67 per hit

Magus:
One handed spell combat- Damage D8+ 5(wpn enhance) +9(STR+Belt) +2(Wpn Spl) +1d6 (shock) +10(PA)= ave 33 per hit. Plus spell damage.

Spellstrike- +5, Shock, wounding, menacing, Spell Storing Longsword
D8+ 5(wpn enhance) +13(1.5x STR+Belt) +2(Wpn Spl) +1d6 (shock) +15(PA)= ave 41 per hit. Plus spell damage.

So Inquis 67 per hit when doing his thing vs Magus 33 per hit + spell when doing his thing.

If an enemy takes 3 hits from an inquisitor = 201 dpr.
If an enemy takes 3 hits from a magus= 99 plus a spell. Assuming the spell cast was a 10d6 spell, an enemy failing a save takes about 130 DPR.

201 vs 130? With a save to reduce the damage to about 115?

The magus's DPR is not looking impressive here. He is helped a little IF the 10d6 spell had other enemies in it's area. The difference is large however.

I've been spamming Arcane accuracy to help try to pace the inquisitor's dpr but I keep running out.

We've been running magus through arena's alongside an inquisitor and through parts of ROTRL. The Inquis is nearly always outdamaing me with his buffs up.

Both are selfish melee casters. Why the difference? Judgements always stack with wpn enhancements. Magus's arcane pool*arcane strike sorta* power helps reduce this (and is not factored above as once you have a +5 wpn you can't up the to hit anymore)

Bane is awesome! Divine Power is awesome.

We are both dropping opponents at the rough same rate-buutt I'm burning alot of spellpoints and slots to do it (using good blasts on spell combat)

The Inquis simply uses Judgement or Divine favor/bane and erases any advantage my spellpool enhancement gives me (I'm also taking -2 for spell combat)

So without Arcane Accuracy you've got seemsless sucky melee + regular blasting being matched by good melee +buff for less resource expenditure.

I maintain spell pool should equal class level + int.

The damage issue is a problem. A few people have stated magus should't be utility casting. That blasty melee is his main thing. So if that's the case why is he still not awesome at it.

I think the new 'wpn spell pool power' needs adjusting.

Either make the bonus untyped and stackable with enhancement. Magus cannot take arcane strike. (my preffered method)

OR

Leave the ability as his but allow arcane strike feat to stack with it.

OR

Whack a decent self buff spell onto the magus list. I already suggested Wrath from APG.

(Feel free to post any errors you guys see- but this is just my play experience so far)

Dark Archive

I agree in part with your comparison to the Inquisitor. But I also recognize that the Inquisitor is one of the most bad ass classes in the game. I found mine to be insanely awesome.

But I don't know why you're assuming that the Magus is only using a 10d6 damage spell. Why is he using a level 2 spell while the Inquisitor uses a level 4 for Divine Power? Now I think it much more liekly that the Magus also uses a level 4 slot for something like an Empowered Scorching Ray for 18 d6. It'll hit almost any enemy on anything but a 1 and do an average of 63 damage.

I think it's also worth nothing that the Inquisitor is burning two class abilities with a limited number of per day uses. If the Magus also uses just a single additional ability with a per day allowance he can freely quicken an additional spell (after he's used his swift action on his weapon enhancements or before). A quickened level 6 spell will add considerable additional damage.


YuenglingDragon wrote:

I agree in part with your comparison to the Inquisitor. But I also recognize that the Inquisitor is one of the most bad ass classes in the game. I found mine to be insanely awesome.

But I don't know why you're assuming that the Magus is only using a 10d6 damage spell. Why is he using a level 2 spell while the Inquisitor uses a level 4 for Divine Power? Now I think it much more liekly that the Magus also uses a level 4 slot for something like an Empowered Scorching Ray for 18 d6. It'll hit almost any enemy on anything but a 1 and do an average of 63 damage.

I think it's also worth nothing that the Inquisitor is burning two class abilities with a limited number of per day uses. If the Magus also uses just a single additional ability with a per day allowance he can freely quicken an additional spell (after he's used his swift action on his weapon enhancements or before). A quickened level 6 spell will add considerable additional damage.

I agree that empowered or maximised spells do more damage.

The comparison was about using only class abilities as is. Those feats you needed to take to outdo an inquisitor for damage are feat sinks to equal the damage an inquisitor does with no extra effort or feat expenditure at all.

I didn't use schorching ray as fire resistance is so common at high levels you'd need to at least alter the energy type to pull it off making it a 3rd level spell.

Yes the inquisitor used a 4th level spell (that lasts ALL of the encounter)
A magus on the other hand will likely be burning high level spell EVERY round

a novaing magus may get better results with Spell Perfection with Intensified, Maximised Cone of Cold perferred spells, but 3 feats just to get spell perfection is a huge investment. (of course i'd still do it- thanks Ravingdork) where a Inquisitor can take whatever he damn pleases- they require very little optimisation.
5 bonus teamwork feats + solo tactics means you got outflank and paired opputunists (+8 to hit and free attacks in the right circumstances)
Where my magus is requiring alot of optimisation/rescources to keep up.

Consider also a magus's extra damage abilities (spell combat) with a couple of corner cases allow saves for half. Inquisitor's don't.

Are we seeing a discrepency here?

I'm not saying he can't keep up.
I'm saying he has to try very, very hard to keep up.
Inquisitor rocks pretty effortlessly.
Oh, and since he's not burning through spells for damage he can still cast utiliy spells.

Not only is an Inquisitor better at Stabbity doom, he's more versatile.

Hence my preference for making the arcane weapon spell pool ability untyped so it stacks at all levels

or allowing arcane strike to stack with the current version
or adding a to hit buff spell to his list.
and giving him more pool points so he doesn't burn out so early.

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