Recently, a few friends and I got into Pathfinder, so we decided to play at a local comic shop every Friday. Knowing that the job would have to fall to someone, I volunteered to be the GM. So far, it's been a blast - the first campaign went smoothly (with the exception of a rule oversight resulting in the instant death of the Orc Cleric 5 boss), and we'll probably be talking about how Thane the Druid smeared the blood of diseased kobold children all over himself, despite knowing that he'd probably contract the plague they were infected with for a long time. But enough of that.
Having caught up on all the rules, I've started my second campaign (this one of my own creation), but I've come across a dilemma with character navigation that I encountered with the first one. The PCs essentially rely on me to point out exactly where they are, or what a room looks like, and the positions of everybody in the room. It seems a tad illogical, given that movement is measured in squares. A lot of the time, the PCs have me move them "in range" of a certain target, without knowing exactly where they are moving to.
So this leads me to the question, should the PCs be able to see the map or not? I was going by the classical approach that they should have no idea where they are until I tell them, but this has led to the aforementioned problems. Is there a better way of keeping track of the PCs and the dozen or so enemies that are standing in the room with them?
I thought about that, but I'm afraid it would tarnish the roleplay aspect of the experience with thoughts like, "that room is at the end of the run and is oddly round; a boss might be in there." Plus there is the issue of how they would get the map.
But perhaps as you said, that would be balanced out by not marking the secrets and traps. It would certainly make combat a lot easier.
Ideally, you'd have sectioned player's maps like the ones WOTC publishes for the D&D open. But, since you probably don't have the time to make sets of full-color, 1" square grid, maps sectioned by room, you could do the next best thing. Make a photocopy of your map, cut it into a few pieces, and hand it out to them as they cross it.
How small the pieces are is up to you, of course, but I don't think it's a problem if players see a little bit ahead of where their characters would. It's easy for players to pretend they didn't see the next room, but if you lay out the whole dungeon level (wilderness journey, castle, whatever) in front of them, they have to pretend too much and it can spoil the adventure.
Well, the current dungeon I'm running is the threshold of a kobold tribe, so I suppose a map is out of the question for this scenario (though it could work for tomb raiding and whatnot later on - I'll keep it in mind).
I like the idea of handing out map "pieces," as it would achieve what I'm looking for, as far as the PCs not knowing what rooms ahead of them would look like.
But for the time being (with the PCs being "blind"), is it typical for a PC to give vague movement directions ("so that I'm flanking the enemy," or "so that I'm within 30 feet of the enemy so I can use my Point-Blank Shot") during battle? I figure that it should be alright as long as I track it all down on my own map, but I was just wondering how other GMs would handle this.
Quick solution get some 1" squared graph paper and draw a sketch map..or alternatively get a Paizo flip mat with a blank side and use dry erase markers
Quick solution get some 1" squared graph paper and draw a sketch map..or alternatively get a Paizo flip mat with a blank side and use dry erase markers
I thought about investing in a flip mat, but my issue is that I'm unsure of how to utilize a map that everybody can see.
It's a given that treasure, traps, and enemies wouldn't be visible until they are in plain sight, but it still allows the PCs to glimpse the shape and size of upcoming rooms before they are even in them. Of course, this isn't a problem if they happen to have a map.
We get the players to map as they go with encounters drawn onto a wipe clean grid. The player draws the map from description given by the gm and if there are any mistakes then when they get back to town, the map the 'characters' have made may not sell for as much.
Dry erase markers and a white board, quickly sketch out an encounter map when needed. Those map tiles that are sold seem cooler, but take even longer for me to use.
I have a player that loves drawing his own maps based on my descriptions, although some of my other players get fed up with him needing the dimensions of everything.
I ran an Undermountain-based campaign by sketching a copy of the map for them on graph paper as they discovered it, and with a laminated map of 1" squares and dry erase markers for encounters. They kept and notated the map to personalize it, and now it's kept with our books as a reminder of that campaign.
Currently running Kingmaker, printed the Greenbelt map and slipped it into a plastic sleeve, using dry erase to cover up the unknown hexes then just wipe away to reveal what they've found.
I've also just gave them descriptions and made notes of their positions on my own personal map, which works fine for the little encounters, but I've found it frustrates/confuses players if the encounter is too complex or dramatic.
The players generally won't need a map of the entire complex, and sounds like yours don't want one, but that's no reason not to give them a visual aid if not actual battle map / miniatures for the room they're having an encounter in.
Aye. It's been complicated enough as is, with them having only 7 or 8 kobolds to deal with at once. It's easy to imagine that the problem will escalate once stronger and larger enemies come around, and those whose spells have a very particular range.
The clean wipe board sounds like the way to go so far. I imagine that I'd have the original copy of the map drawn up, and me or one of the PCs could draw it on the mat piece by piece as they enter those rooms. After all, they are only simple geometrical shapes most of the time, so if I already know the dimensions, then it won't be a big problem. And I have to admit, having miniatures would help a lot...
Make a photocopy of your map, cut it into a few pieces, and hand it out to them as they cross it.
This can be a very useful tool, even if it's not at a scale that can be used with miniatures. It woudl still provide the players with an idea of the room(s) they're in, without giving them unnecessary tidbits of what's to come. The technique can also be utilized to facilitate geographical regions, and exploration of larger ares.
The clean wipe board sounds like the way to go so far. I imagine that I'd have the original copy of the map drawn up, and me or one of the PCs could draw it on the mat piece by piece as they enter those rooms. After all, they are only simple geometrical shapes most of the time, so if I already know the dimensions, then it won't be a big problem. And I have to admit, having miniatures would help a lot...
I utilize a double-sided battlemat for my games. I quickly sketch the area for the players, and it gives them an idea of what an area looks like and what they can do within it.
As for the vague movement directions, without a map and miniatures for the players to track location, it's inevitable. Pathfinder is a tactical game, with a lot of the mechanics based on location relative to allies, enemies, and the environment. Movement, and other actions, given by a player will be vague when that player's understanding of the situation is vague.
As for the vague movement directions, without a map and miniatures for the players to track location, it's inevitable. Pathfinder is a tactical game, with a lot of the mechanics based on location relative to allies, enemies, and the environment. Movement, and other actions, given by a player will be vague when that player's understanding of the situation is vague.
I can see what you mean. Many of the game mechanics such as attacks of opportunity and 5-foot steps have gone unused simply because my group's PCs have no perception of the squares around them or on the map.
At this point, I'm highly considering buying Paizo's Basic GameMastery Flip-Mat, seeing as I have a bit of a tight budget (though the battlemat does look quite nice). I can't imagine that sketching rectangles and squares as they enter a room would take very long at all.
As far as miniatures go, I suppose I could eventually implement them, but only for the PCs. Getting a bunch of them for the x number of enemies and NPCs there will be could get pricey.
I'm also a big, big fan of the double-sided, pre-ruled, dry-erase (etc. etc.) battlemat. Similar to other suggestions, what I do is draw out the map for myself in full detail and have that behind my GM screen. Then I quickly draw out the map as far as the party can see with dry erase marker as they move along, marking secret doors and traps and whatnot as they (IF they) find them. When we get to the end of the mat, we flip it, or just erase where they were and rewind.
I've found that this sort of reveal, whether done my way or with pre-cut map sections as describe above, tends to do a terrific job of adding a sense of physicality and danger to the process of dungeon-diving.
At this point, I'm highly considering buying Paizo's Basic GameMastery Flip-Mat, seeing as I have a bit of a tight budget (though the battlemat does look quite nice). I can't imagine that sketching rectangles and squares as they enter a room would take very long at all.
It doesn't! It's awesome! The basic flip-mat is, IIRC, not very expensive and once you have it you'll love it.
As far as miniatures go, I suppose I could eventually implement them, but only for the PCs. Getting a bunch of them for the x number of enemies and NPCs there will be could get pricey.
If you can get to GenCon or similar, there are always mini dealers who have whole buckets of generic minis for just a few bucks a handful. I've also found local hobby shops often have clearances on minis.
Those money-saving opportunities aside, I only have a couple dozen minis at most and find that in general, they can stand in for any enemy. My players joke sometimes: "Okay, so what monster does the blue bodak represent THIS time?" but since the game depends on imagination anyway, it's not much of a leap to ask them to mentally replace generic minis with specific monsters.
Anyway, it's all worth it to have a map with 5-foot squares and minis because once you do, it eliminates most, if not all, arguments about who's where and doing what.
As for the vague movement directions, without a map and miniatures for the players to track location, it's inevitable. Pathfinder is a tactical game, with a lot of the mechanics based on location relative to allies, enemies, and the environment. Movement, and other actions, given by a player will be vague when that player's understanding of the situation is vague.I can see what you mean. Many of the game mechanics such as attacks of opportunity and 5-foot steps have gone unused simply because my group's PCs have no perception of the squares around them or on the map.
At this point, I'm highly considering buying Paizo's Basic GameMastery Flip-Mat, seeing as I have a bit of a tight budget (though the battlemat does look quite nice). I can't imagine that sketching rectangles and squares as they enter a room would take very long at all.
As far as miniatures go, I suppose I could eventually implement them, but only for the PCs. Getting a bunch of them for the x number of enemies and NPCs there will be could get pricey.
When my group started we used a couple go boards, and go pieces and coins for miniatures. You dont need to buy specific minis, if you can get a grid together and some distinctive looking somethings (minis, coins, beads) you can clear up alot of confusion at the table. Each player had a mini they used for every character and all the enemies were some generic bead or go piece.
I would recommend getting a dry erase board or matt, its easier then a flip matt which already has stuff on it (though there is a blank flip matt). You have a tone of options here including the ultra cheap gaming paper (which you can save and re-use) or the substancial roll up magna board here that will attract any magnet (you could grab your 'mini's' off your fridge). I have this one and a couple flip matts. I prefer the blank one and some dry erace markers myself. Its easier and I dont have to worry about having the right map. If i have prep time i'll draw a couple maps ahead of time and keep them hidden (covering unused ones with paper and scotch tape for instance). Then reveal rooms and corridors as players explore them.
Thanks for the input everybody, I ran the idea of a blank flip-mat by a few of my players and they seemed to like the sound of it. It could be very well worth the 12 bucks.
But on another matter of maps, how do you all tend to manage outdoor encounters, which are as limited in terms of walls, ceilings, etc.? I imagine that you just draw the trees or rocks and whatever, but I'm not entirely sure of how to keep track of elevations. (ie, the giant centipede climbs twenty feet down the tree to prepare to ambush the PCs)
We use a multitude of things in our game...
More predominently, a permanently 1"-squared MAGNETIC white dry eraser board. This item is a miracle-worker. I basically use it to quickly draw out the immediate combat-map surroundings, and place different coloured letters/numbers/magnets to represent the folks involved in the melee. Works really well.
Then there's my other plain white eraser board, on which I draw more permanently used areas (maybe the outline of the castle being stormed, or a birds'eye view of the surrounding wilderness).
The green ordinary chalk-board usually holds quick reference info, like DCs for dispelling magic, a few clarifications for obscure rules that we don't have to check in the book every time we use them.
Photocopies of maps of areas that the players finished, treasure maps, and purchased maps, scrolls and other had-written notes that the characters find.
As for in-game map-making, usually one player acts as map-maker and roughly makes the maps as I describe the areas (I'll draw out more complicated areas as sometimes they are hard to describe). It's never a precise thing though (circles for rooms, with lines conecting them), that mostly serve the players as a way to get out of a dungeon should they need to. It's always fun at the end of an adventure to compare both the hand-drawn map to the official one and laugh at the discrepincies.
And that's pretty much it.
Utradan
Thanks for the input everybody, I ran the idea of a blank flip-mat by a few of my players and they seemed to like the sound of it. It could be very well worth the 12 bucks.
But on another matter of maps, how do you all tend to manage outdoor encounters, which are as limited in terms of walls, ceilings, etc.? I imagine that you just draw the trees or rocks and whatever, but I'm not entirely sure of how to keep track of elevations. (ie, the giant centipede climbs twenty feet down the tree to prepare to ambush the PCs)
there are lots of ways to do it. One of the simplest is to place the miniature on something and put down a die to represent the height the creature/pc/npc currently is at. So if a character flies 20 ft foward and 15 feet up, we place it on something (like a dice box for instance) and then put a d10 next to it marked to 3 (for 3 5ft increments).
Now you could go whole hog and buy tools to let you directly represent vertical distance on the board. I use these combat tiers and they help alot in managing elevation and flight. but there isnt a need to go this far.
Just writing the elevations down on the combat mat sounds simple enough. I suppose there's no need to over-complicate the matter, though the extra bells and whistles would be really handy somewhere down the line.
This question isn't entirely related to the map, but it adds onto the issue a tad. When I have a large group of enemies of the same type like, say 9 kobolds, do I roll initiative for their group as a whole, or do I roll it for each individual kobold?
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It doesn't! It's awesome! The basic flip-mat is, IIRC, not very expensive and once you have it you'll love it.
At this point, I'm highly considering buying Paizo's Basic GameMastery Flip-Mat, seeing as I have a bit of a tight budget (though the battlemat does look quite nice). I can't imagine that sketching rectangles and squares as they enter a room would take very long at all.
I've gone completely electronic. I use MapTool (free software) for map display and to track combat basics (init, hp, etc). I put an image of the PC in MapTool as well and move the PCs around using one image for each PC. If I had a downward facing projector I'd probably just project onto a whiteboard or something and the players would use real figs. (But then scrolling the map to a new area means moving the figs and that's a pain.) I don't use the projector idea as the pool table where we play has a ceiling fan directly overhead. :(
<disclaimer>
I'm a contributor to MapTool and site administrator for the forums.
</disclaimer>
The program seems pretty cool, and nothing fits into a budget better than something that is free. I might have to check it out sometime.
Just to rethrow my question out there before GMing this Friday:
When I have a large group of enemies of the same type like, say 9 kobolds, do I roll initiative for their group as a whole, or do I roll it for each individual kobold?
I figure I could keep track of the separate monsters by marking them with numbers, but I don't know if having a chunk of monsters take their turn at once would break gameplay at all.
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I figure I could keep track of the separate monsters by marking them with numbers, but I don't know if having a chunk of monsters take their turn at once would break gameplay at all.
When I played mostly pen&paper, I gave all nine of them a single init. It was much simpler.
With a computerized data tracker, I select the NPC tokens (what MapTool calls the map figures) and click the framework's Init button. Each is given a separate, random init slot.
I also use MapTool's feature where it automatically adds a random number to the end of a token's name when you create new ones. So I can create a single "Goblin" just the way I want him. When I copy/paste him onto the map, I get "Goblin XX" where the "XX" is some random two-digit number. Now I can distinguish between them and the players don't know how many there are. :)
I usually go back and change the name of the chieftain to "Goblin 42" or something and put the chief's real name into the "GM Name" field so only I can see it. That lasts until the PCs have determined which one is the leader; then I change the name so they can track him.
In some games where we didn't have appropriate minis for the characters, we have used chewy sweets to represent any monsters in encounters. Much more satisfying when they are defeated!
I utilize a double-sided battlemat for my games. I quickly sketch the area for the players, and it gives them an idea of what an area looks like and what they can do within it.
These battlemats are the best role-playing utility product I've ever seen. They are worth every penny. I'm an old-school gamer. Ever since these came out, I cannot imagine playing a table-top RPG of any kind without one.
I did a tad more research and realized that unlike the Flip-Mats, the Battlemats are made of vinyl, so they are more durable. I think it'll be worth it to fork over the extra money, especially since I'll be using it often.
As it turns out, I have quite a few cardboard monster tokens from the D&D 4e Starter Set (a bad joke), which can prove useful since they're the right size.
Care and treatment of your vinyl battlemat:
1.) They do not work with dry-erase markers. Kepp only wet-erase markers in the area, or sooner or later, you'll go through the frustration of removing marks that don't want to go.
2.) Erase them when your session is done. If you let the wet-erase markers set for a few days, they're much more likely to leave a stubborn mark.
3.) Windex is your friend. Keep some handy in a small container for cleaning the mat. Water works, but Windex (or its clones) works better. Likewaise, keep some rags or paper towels handy for cleanup.
4.) Resign yourself to "GM Hand", stained skin after you've run a game. By that sign, your GM mojo will be known.
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I use a battle mat but no markers. I bought some small wooden blocks to outline corridors or to make terrain. The players loved it because the plain blocks let them feel the dungeon walls.
For outdoor play I found some hand sized stones and split them in half. That way they had a flat side. I bought some trees to give the sense of outdoors. For some scenes I used paper buildings that I constructed from plans I found online. It was a lot of work and a bit of money but in terms of payoff in game it was fantastic.
I use a battle mat but no markers. I bought some small wooden blocks to outline corridors or to make terrain. The players loved it because the plain blocks let them feel the dungeon walls.
Bing bing bing! We have a winner.
My groups do this. We have a box of various useful size and shape Lego bits. When the players decide to open a door, either I or they draw the room beyond based on my description. If it's complex, I put down the Lego. If it's simple, they do. Once it's on the battlemat, they can decide how they want to act. Is there anyone inside? Depends. Sometimes things are visible, sometimes things are hidden. Sometimes there are other exits to explore.
The players then generally keep an ongoing map on graph paper. Only the currently visible areas are on the battlemat.
Same thing happens outside. We've got Lego that doubles as trees, shrubs, rocks, cliffs, you name it.