According to the bestiary, in the Monsters as PCs section, you can pretty much play any creature as a player race, subject to GM approval. You basically treat the creature's CR as their class level and then there is a small "buy off" as you increase in class levels (since racial abilities tend to diminish in usefulness as you level up). Read the rules here!
It isn't really covered. Even in 3.5 it was a bit muddy.
In theory a CR 4 creature should be the equivalent of a character with 4 levels. Problem is a CR is based on a fight versus a party, so another CR 4 creature might have a ton more abilities than a creature who is CR 4 because of 4 class levels. It also means some CR 4 creatures have more HD to make up for the fact that they are fighting 4+ characters in a group.
As a DM you will have to "eye ball" it, if you are really interested on getting monsters as PC's I would suggest getting a copy of WotC's Savage species as it is the most informative book on the subject to date. Reading through it and understanding what is what when making the transition from monster to PC will help you with newer creatures as they come out. A lot of the issue is abilities being so subjective. At low levels fly is amazing, encounters don't take that into account at 1st-4th level as it wouldn't be available to Core PCs. At higher level, everyone could have it so it isn't worth as much and might be worse than what the equivalent class has. Because of this sliding scale, it is near impossible to give hard and fast rules for it.
That being said, PF PCs being powered up some, on most creatures in Savage species I'd probably knock off a +1 LA or so.
EDIT: I thought I remember reading something about it but couldn't remember where, Mauril got it.
Read the guidelines printed. It says to use the CR, not the HD. I'd do what it says. This is mostly because racial hit dice are, for the most part, inferior to class hit dice. Outsiders and dragons are sort of an exception. So your magical beast hit dice? They are pretty much the same as taking levels in an NPC class. Sometimes this is made up for with interesting abilities, and sometimes they don't. Also, unless you continue to take "levels" in Racial Hit Dice, most of those special abilities are going to stagnate, so the fine folks at Paizo added in the buy-off system, allowing you to replace some of your CR-levels with class levels as you continue to adventure.
In the case of your centaur, he gains 1 hit die over an equally leveled PC with normal class levels. But those hit dice don't come with armor proficiency, weapon proficiency, bonus feats, special class abilities, any sort of spell casting, or anything like that. You do get two secondary natural attacks (hooves) and a +4 to your trip CMD. In my mind, not an equal trade, but I would definitely not count you out if you are wanting to play a centaur for roleplay reasons. (I often play odd races or race/class combinations because it better fits my story.) Just recognize that you are pretty much losing out, power-wise, over just picking a dwarf or an elf.
On a creature with a single hit die, you can replace that hit die with a class level. On creatures with more than one, you cannot.
If you wanted, you could start as a stock centaur at level 3, with no class levels. If you wanted a level in Fighter, you'd have to wait until level 4.
The level buy-off (which can be a little confusing) basically lets you trade in a point of CR (but not any hit dice) for another class level. The recommendation is to do this every 3 class levels gained. You reduce the base CR by 1 a number of times equal to half the creature's base CR. What that means is that for your centaur, when the group has gained three levels, his base CR would be reduced by one, allowing him to pick up another level in fighter to stay on par with the rest of the group. He could do this again when the group gains another three levels (that is, when they hit level 6). From this point on his base CR will no longer be reduced, and he will just gain class levels normally.
So it would look like this:
Party Level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15...
Centaur___- - C 1 2 4 5 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14...
The dashes (-) are levels that you can't play a centaur. The "C" is where you could play a centaur with no class levels. The numbered levels are the amount of class levels your centaur could have. Does that make sense?
You centaur will be at least one class level behind everyone else, but will have an additional hit die and point of BAB and two natural attacks.
The only thing the rules don't spell out is whether there is always a one level reduction possible (such as CR 1 creatures), and whether you round up or down on the reductions for odd CR creatures. So both of those are a GM call. Personally, I round up, which takes care of both cases (CR 1 / 2 = 0.5, rounded up to 1).
It's not specifically mentioned. I'm not exactly a balanced way to do it either, since my group never uses it and just levels up whenever the adventure calls for it.
If you read the rules for the CR usage, there is no cost. PF outlawed XP costs on everything.
You simply reduce the CR by one every three levels, and add an extra class level.
For example :
Level 3 : Centaur CR 3
Level 4 : Centaur 3/Fighter 1
Level 5 : Centaur 3/Fighter 2
Level 5.5 : Centaur 2/Fighter 3
Level 6 : Centaur 2/Fighter 4
Level 7 : Centaur 2/Fighter 5
etc...
would it be more
Level 3 : Centaur CR 3
Level 4 : Centaur 3/Fighter 1
Level 5 : Centaur 3/Fighter 2
Level 6 : Centaur 2/Fighter 3
Level 7 : Centaur 2/Fighter 4
Level 8 : Centaur 2/Fighter 5
etc...
?last night pathfinder game i was in someone sayed that core book and beastiary dont say the some. core says HD and beastiary says CR even conversion guide not helping.
i have a old templates form 3.5 ive convert some over to pathfinder (like damage, BAB base on HD est) but whan doing the math it has LA and CR. do i use the bigger do the two when doing the math or not use LA at all?
did LA end when pathfinder came out?
i stell cant get my head round it even 3.5 i was losing my mind so i played pathfinder hoping it would stop hurting but the some Q&A keep coming up.
No, that is not correct. Here's the relevant text from the Bestiary or PRD.
Note that in a mixed group, the value of racial Hit Dice and abilities diminish as a character gains levels. It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by the group, the monster character should gain an extra level, received halfway between the 2nd and 3rd levels. Repeat this process a number of times equal to half the monster's CR, rounded down. Using the minotaur example, when the group is at a point between 6th and 7th level, the minotaur gains a level, and then again at 7th, making him a minotaur barbarian 4. This process repeats at 10th level, making him a minotaur barbarian 8 when the group reaches 10th level. From that point onward, he gains levels normally.
As you see above, the character gains a class level half-way between 2nd and 3rd class levels, while the CR is reduced by one.
The core book doesn't say anything about monster races as pc races.
The conversion document was just that, an interim conversion document. It was designed to bridge the gap until the Bestiary was complete. It's no longer really applicable now that the Bestiary is out.
LA was tossed in PF.
As to the converted templates, you'll need to make that decision, there's no rules on it. I would probably use the larger myself.
Yeah, it's complex, but all games are. Just have to get the rules down as you come accross them.
don't forget Drow, Duegar, and Svirfneblin. Our underdark friends need pc levels too!
reading that it should be
<tables>
Yep, you got it. :) Just depends on which way you round.
As to the pages, it starts on the bottom right of page 313, and ends on page 314.
don't forget Drow, Duegar, and Svirfneblin. Our underdark friends need pc levels too!
Yep. Although,
Noble Drow, having a CR 1 when they have one class level, actually couldn't be played before group level 2Level 2 : Drow Noble 1/Class Level 1
Note that on this particular race, I don't suggest allowing the CR to be reduced to allow another class level. They're very powerful CR 1's, just shy of CR 2's in my book.
reading that it should be
<tables>
Yep, you got it. :) Just depends on which way you round.
As to the pages, it starts on the bottom right of page 313, and ends on page 314.
thx
to find the CR of the party. Ave. the party lvl then -1 or ave. lvl of party is CR?
or
char. lvl = CR or -1 CR? (for Classes)
Nope, you use the average party level, not the CR, of the party.
Example :
Party consists of :
Rogue 4
Fighter 5
Wizard 5
Average Party Level : = 14/3, or 4.66
Round that up to 5.
So if our player wanted to play a Centaur Ranger, he'd be playing a Centaur 3/Ranger 2, starting at 5th level. Halfway to 6th level, he'd become a Centaur 2/Ranger 3, and at 6th level he'd become a Centaur 2/Ranger 4.
Cross-posted from another thread to help you better understand the rules as they stand:
If the monster PC guidelines in the Bestiary are strictly adhered to, a centaur PC's progression looks like the table below. The left column shows the centaur's racial HD (before the slash) and the centaur's class levels (after the slash) as it compares to his more normal party members' class levels. For example, if your party is 16th-level, then you should be a 14th-level centaur (that is 4 HD & 14 class levels). The bolded line is where the centaur gains a "bonus class level" to make up for his inferior racial HD.
4/00; 3
4/01; 4
4/02; 5
4/04; 6
4/05; 7
4/06; 8
4/07; 9
4/08; 10
4/09; 11
4/10; 12
4/11; 13
4/12; 14
4/13; 15
4/14; 16
4/15; 17
4/16; 18
4/17; 19
4/18; 20Your centaur racial traits would look something like this:
Ability Modifiers: +4 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Con, +4 Wis, +2 Cha (as well as +1 to any one ability score for your 4th racial HD)
Size: Large (10 x 10 ft.)
Type: Monstrous Humanoid (4 HD)
Speed: 50 ft.
Reach: 5 ft.
Armor Class: +1 natural armor bonus
Natural Attacks: 2 hooves (secondary attacks, base 1d6 damage)
Skills: No racial bonuses, but you get a +8 bonus to Acrobatics checks made to jump due to high speed.
Special Attacks: none
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., Undersized weapons
Starting Languages: Common, Elven, Sylvan (with no bonus languages for high intelligence)You may only play such a character in a 3rd-level or higher group and you gain the starting funds of a character for your effective level (for example, if you started in a 16th-level group, you would start with 315,000gp worth of adventuring gear).
HP: 10 + 3d10 + (con x 4)
Base Saves: +1 Fort, +4 Ref, +4 Will
Base Attack: +4
Bonus Armor/Weapon Proficiencies: All light and medium armors, shields (except the tower shield), and all simple weapons plus the longsword
Feats: 2 general feats (one at your first HD, and one at your 3rd); Later on, you use the sum of your racial HD and your class levels to determine when you get your general feats
Skills: You have 16 ranks to assign (modified for intelligence) and you can have up to 4 ranks in any given skill. Your class skills are Climb, Craft, Fly, Intimidate, Perception, Ride, Stealth, Survival, and Swim.When you add on class levels, you follow all the same rules for multiclassing (thus you do NOT gain max hp for your first class level since you already got it for your first racial HD). You can also start accruing some favored class bonuses (as you can't choose your racial type as a favored class).
That's about it I think. If you have any other questions about playing monstrous characters, feel free to let me know.
EDIT: Don't forget your size modifiers (-1 AC/attacks, +1 CMB/CMD, -4 Stealth, etc.)
I hope that helps.
Goblins are too weak as PC characters
I beg to differ. They are one of the fastest small characters you can play AND they make excellent archers, cavaliers, rogues, rangers, or shadowdancers. They are a decent race in other roles as well (that is, neither better or worse than other races).
If you are making a focused stealth build (such as shadowdancer) they may even be brokenly powerful as no one will ever be able to find them (they have a net +10 Stealth higher than other level 1 races).
Hardly too weak to play.
The core book doesn't say anything about monster races as pc races.
Actually it does. What's more, its rules somewhat contradict what's said in the Bestiary.
Monstrous Characters
You should decide on how exotic your world is at the start. The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game assumes a baseline that all PCs, and thus the majority of the civilized world’s NPCs, are of one of the seven races presented in Chapter 2. You might want to narrow those choices perhaps there are only humans in your world, or perhaps one or more of the races in Chapter 2 are rare enough to be nearly legends on their own. In these cases, you should inform your players that their choices for races are reduced, as appropriate. On the other end of things, perhaps your world is much more extravagant than the implied world. In this case, you might allow your players to play characters of races other than those detailed in Chapter 2. The Pathfinder RPG Bestiary has many non-standard races to choose from, but you should note that most of these are significantly more powerful than those presented in Chapter 2. Any race that grants racial Hit Dice is probably too potent a choice for most campaigns. As a general guideline, you should advise your players to choose races of roughly equal power, using a creature’s racial HD (not its CR) as a general guideline. Characters who wish instead to play standard races should be allowed to start at higher level, so that their total HD match the highest HD held by a non-standard race in the party.Alternative Races
Only more experienced GMs should consider allowing players to play anything other than the races presented in Chapter 2, but if you want to start experimenting, the following races from the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary are good choices for races that are close in power to those listed in Chapter 2.• Aasimar
• Goblin
• Hobgoblin
• Kobold
• Merfolk
• Mite
• Orc
• Tengu
• TieflingThe following races are somewhat more powerful, due to the fact that they possess racial Hit Dice, exceptional ability score modifiers, natural attacks, or other unusual abilities. These races are intended as monstrous foes, not as PC races, and if you allow players to play one of these creatures, you should allow characters who pick from the list above or from the seven core races to start play at 2nd level.
• Boggard
• Bugbear
• Dark Creeper
• Drow
• Duergar
• Gnoll
• Lizardfolk
• Morlock
• Svirfneblin
It's worth noting that Level Adjustments (LA) no longer exists in Pathfinder (Thank God!).
Note that Dorks entry assumes a round down on how many levels you can reduce the CR (in other words, it assumes one CR reduction for a CR 3 creature, not 2). So you'll need to modify it if you're rounding up.
Other than that, I believe it catches everything. Nice job Dork.
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Note that Dorks entry assumes a round down on how many levels you can reduce the CR (in other words, it assumes one CR reduction for a CR 3 creature, not 2). So you'll need to modify it if you're rounding up.
Other than that, I believe it catches everything. Nice job Dork.
Isn't there a rule somewhere that specifically states you round down in every case unless otherwise specified?
I've been statting up Pathfinder monster PCs since the game's release and know the rules quite well. I have full write ups (like the one above) for centaurs, grimlocks, and janni on these boards. It's amazing how often the same creatures come up. I've posted the grimlock stats at least twice, and this will be the third or fourth time I've copied the centaur stats to a new thread.
wow thats help a lot
ture ok how about Kobold there weak to me, you?Goblins are too weak as PC characters
I beg to differ. They are one of the fastest small characters you can play AND they make excellent archers, cavaliers, rogues, rangers, or shadowdancers. They are a decent race in other roles as well (that is, neither better or worse than other races).
If you are making a focused stealth build (such as shadowdancer) they may even be brokenly powerful as no one will ever be able to find them (they have a net +10 Stealth higher than other level 1 races).
Hardly too weak to play.
I do think that kobolds are weaker than normal races, and as such should only be played by experienced players looking for a challenge AND when the other players agree to it (as a weak character can bring the whole party down).
Here are my house rules.
I know it's not RAW, but it works. I used to use a similar rule for D&D 3.5 and 3.0 and it has never caused a problem.
Players can choose any race in the Bestiary that is intelligent and CR 2 or less.
I've gone through the entire bestiary and there is nothing in there that is so game-breaking to worry about. CR 3 and above don't work out so well, even at higher levels. I would allow centaurs as an exception because their awkward size makes up for any advantages.
I've had a kobold character in my group. He got a level of expert as his first level to make up for the weakness and he turned out fine.
this time the Q&A about the player how would we do the EXP for this
EXP:(medium)
at 5th lvl 15,000exp (4HD,2Class,CR3)
at 6th lvl 23,000exp (4HD,4class,CR2)
or
at 5th lvl 15,000exp (4HD,2Class,CR3)
at 6th lvl 19,000exp (4HD,3class,CR3)
at 6th lvl 23,000exp (4HD,4class,CR2)
It's the second one. You split the difference between 5th and 6th, and award the extra level at half way up (IE: 19,000exp).
I've had a kobold character in my group. He got a level of expert as his first level to make up for the weakness and he turned out fine.
That's actually not a bad solution for Kobolds and Goblins. Give them one level of an NPC class, and then one Class Level, and call them first level characters.
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I've had a kobold character in my group. He got a level of expert as his first level to make up for the weakness and he turned out fine.That's actually not a bad solution for Kobolds and Goblins. Give them one level of an NPC class, and then one Class Level, and call them first level characters.
no no no, goblins are PERFECTLY FINE 0ecl monsters, its the kobolds that need the help (stats are utterly horrible) goblins may be over all +0 stat mod but they do get +4 to dex and there other abilites are great! (one of the best stealth characters in the game.)
no no no, goblins are PERFECTLY FINE 0ecl monsters, its the kobolds that need the help (stats are utterly horrible) goblins may be over all +0 stat mod but they do get +4 to dex and there other abilites are great! (one of the best stealth characters in the game.)I've had a kobold character in my group. He got a level of expert as his first level to make up for the weakness and he turned out fine.That's actually not a bad solution for Kobolds and Goblins. Give them one level of an NPC class, and then one Class Level, and call them first level characters.
We weren't talking about them as monsters. They make great fodder. They make lousy player characters at 1st level.
no no no, goblins are PERFECTLY FINE 0ecl monsters, its the kobolds that need the help (stats are utterly horrible) goblins may be over all +0 stat mod but they do get +4 to dex and there other abilites are great! (one of the best stealth characters in the game.)I've had a kobold character in my group. He got a level of expert as his first level to make up for the weakness and he turned out fine.That's actually not a bad solution for Kobolds and Goblins. Give them one level of an NPC class, and then one Class Level, and call them first level characters.
We're not talking about 0 ECL monsters. We're talking about PC characters to be played at level 1.
I've had a kobold character in my group. He got a level of expert as his first level to make up for the weakness and he turned out fine.thank you for bring that up Umbral Reaver
how do i do the math on CR if a NPC or monster has core classes and NPC classes?
let use Umbral Reaver kobold 1 lvl expert/ 3 lvl rogue? (has a npc not a playable char)or more NPC classes then core classes?
Just CR it as you would a PC race character of a PC class.
Treat said Kobold like you would a Human Rogue 3, or an Elf Rogue 3 or whatever.
even if i have more NPC classes then Core Classes like 4 lvls expert/ 3 lvl rogue
then i find this
"A creature that possesses has class levels, but does not have any racial Hit Dice, is factored in as a creature with a CR equal to its class levels –1. A creature that only possesses non-player class levels (such as a warrior or adept—see page 448) is factored in as a creature with a CR equal to its class levels –2. If this reduction would reduce a creature’s CR to below 1, its CR drops one step on the following progression for each step below 1 this reduction would make: 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/6, 1/8." form the core book.
No, he's talking about if you want to balance out the racial suckitude. To make a kobold equal to a human at 1st level, give it a class level in whatever the player wants (like Rogue), but also give it an NPC class level (say, in Expert), but don't count the NPC class level.
He was just suggesting it as a way to make kobolds more playable at 1st level.
Or any level really. That extra point of BAB from a Warrior level, or access to Adept wands would still be nice things to have even if said kobold were high level.No, she's talking about if you want to balance out the racial suckitude. To make a kobold equal to a human at 1st level, give it a class level in whatever the player wants (like Rogue), but also give it an NPC class level (say, in Expert), but don't count the NPC class level.
He was just suggesting it as a way to make kobolds more playable at 1st level.
Fix't. :)
And I am not sure if a warrior or adept level would be so safe to give to a kobold PC as a free 0th level. Expert is pretty easily a safe 'half-level' as it grants no BAB, moderate hp and saves and is mostly skills.
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Or any level really. That extra point of BAB from a Warrior level, or access to Adept wands would still be nice things to have even if said kobold were high level.No, she's talking about if you want to balance out the racial suckitude. To make a kobold equal to a human at 1st level, give it a class level in whatever the player wants (like Rogue), but also give it an NPC class level (say, in Expert), but don't count the NPC class level.
He was just suggesting it as a way to make kobolds more playable at 1st level.
Fix't. :)
And I am not sure if a warrior or adept level would be so safe to give to a kobold PC as a free 0th level. Expert is pretty easily a safe 'half-level' as it grants no BAB, moderate hp and saves and is mostly skills.
Actually, I've found that Expert is one of the best NPC classes, if only because you get to *pick* what your 10 class skills are. I'm sure there are lots of Fighters that would love to pick up Perception as a free class skill, or other classes that might want a lot of the Knowledges.
ok i know this is a old post i dont want to start a other if on the some post were are talking about
do i stell do that did that or did go way?
Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level: To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels.
Gone, dead, and good riddance.