so if a rogue is flanking a mob with another player and the mob moves away in a straight line
OXO
O O
X
does the rogue get to make sneak attack on the mob as AoO (because he flanked)? I think not, but I am unable to find the RAW.
so if a rogue is flanking a mob with another player and the mob moves away in a straight line
** spoiler omitted **
does the rogue get to make sneak attack on the mob as AoO (because he flanked)? I think not, but I am unable to find the RAW.
I'd say yes, he gets the sneak attack.
Unless I misunderstood the situation, then the enemy provokes due to leaving a threatened square? If that is the case, then the AoO is inacted before he actually leaves the square, so he should still be flanked.Similarly a character with the Stand Still feat could hit him with a AoO and he wouldn't be allowed to leave the square at all.
Mob Anatomy (Ex): A mob has no clear front or back and no discernible anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or sneak attacks. A mob cannot be flanked, tripped, grappled, or bull rushed.
*edit* pretty much a swarm of humans.
Since the AoO is performed before he leaves the square, he is still flanked and the rogue gets +2 to his attack and his sneak attack damage.
While we're at it, there's one thing I'm still trying to figure out with flanking:
Is the enemy (E) flanked by the PCs (P) in the following situation? (X is an empty square)
X P X
X E X
P X X
Since the AoO is performed before he leaves the square, he is still flanked and the rogue gets +2 to his attack and his sneak attack damage.
While we're at it, there's one thing I'm still trying to figure out with flanking:
Is the enemy (E) flanked by the PCs (P) in the following situation? (X is an empty square)X P X
X E X
P X X
No. He would need to be here:
X X P
X E X
P X X
or here with reach:
X X X P P
X X X X P
X X E X X
X P X X X
X X X X X
Since the AoO is performed before he leaves the square, he is still flanked and the rogue gets +2 to his attack and his sneak attack damage.
While we're at it, there's one thing I'm still trying to figure out with flanking:
Is the enemy (E) flanked by the PCs (P) in the following situation? (X is an empty square)X P X
X E X
P X X
Not in that case. The easiest way, is to trace a line between the center of the PCs squares, only if the entire line is through the opponents square are they flanking.
Or more simply in case of a medium creature, the only flanking is:
X X P -- X P X -- X X X
X E X -- X E X -- P E P
P X X -- X P X -- X X X
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Tanis, just so you know, the term "mob" is used in World of Warcraft (and most MMOs) to refer to "monster", "bad guy", "NPC", etc. I suspect that the OP (Original Poster) was using the term in that fashion, instead the significantly more obscure "swarm of small or medium size humanoids" definition.
It's entirely possible that you didn't know this, which is fine, but just in case it was an attempt to "gently nudge" the new player to use the "correct" terminology, I feel the need to point out that such behavior does not exactly help grow both this game in particular and the hobby in general. MMOs owe a great deal to tabletop gaming, and they are paying it back in large part simply by being what they've always been - very similar to tabletop gaming in loads and loads of ways.
Growing the game in this day and age means accepting and embracing the terminology of MMOs. Not the play-style, as WotC has successfully demonstrated the failure of doing, but some of the concepts and structures and ideas, including terminology. We gave them "tank", they give us "mob", and the cycle continues.
Of course, it's entirely possible that you weren't intending any of what I've read into your post, and if that's the case, I apologize.
AoO happens as an interrupt action, before the action that provokes it. That being the case, the Rogue would get the AoO before the enemy actually moves, and so, the enemy will still be flanked when the attack happens. So the Rogue should get SA.
....
Mob Anatomy (Ex): A mob has no clear front or back and no discernible anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or sneak attacks. A mob cannot be flanked, tripped, grappled, or bull rushed.
This would be true if the OP meant mob as in a swarm type creature. If he means mob as in the commonly used MMO term to describe an enemy, then no, it just means a guy they are fighting.
....
While we're at it, there's one thing I'm still trying to figure out with flanking:
Is the enemy (E) flanked by the PCs (P) in the following situation? (X is an empty square)X P X
X E X
P X X
No. The flankers have to be exactly opposite of eachother to be flanking. This would work:
X X P
X E X
P X X
or this:
X P X
X E X
X P X
The description of Flanking in the Combat section of the PRD makes it sound like the PCs in your example might be flanking the Enemy:
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.
When in doubt about whether two characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two attackers' centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent's space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.
However, keep in mind that the description doesn't say draw a line between any points in the two PCs squares through the Enemy square. It says draw a line from the middle of each PC. The #2 scenario in the Flanking diagram actually addresses your question. Even if you replace the Ogre in the diagram with a medium sized enemy and placed it in the upper right corner that the Ogre occupies in the diagram, which would be exactly the positioning of the enemy and PCs in your question, it would not be a flanking position.
Mob Anatomy (Ex): A mob has no clear front or back and no discernible anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or sneak attacks. A mob cannot be flanked, tripped, grappled, or bull rushed.
*edit* pretty much a swarm of humans.
i am sorry for the online slang...
MOB stands for Monster Or Beast in MMO's like Everquest and World of Warcraft. TBH my group of friends uses it both online and in pen and paper games...
OT
isn't there a rule that you can only use a "normal" attack for an AoO?
you can't use cleave or vital strike when you make an AoO, so why could you use sneak attack?
you can't use cleave or vital strike when you make an AoO, so why could you use sneak attack?
Cleave and vital strike both require a standard action to use. Sneak attack damage applies to attacks made when the enemy is denied his dex bonus or is flanked.
If that is the case with the AoO, then you add the sneak attack damage.
Tanis, just so you know, the term "mob" is used in World of Warcraft (and most MMOs) to refer to "monster", "bad guy", "NPC", etc. I suspect that the OP (Original Poster) was using the term in that fashion, instead the significantly more obscure "swarm of small or medium size humanoids" definition.
It's entirely possible that you didn't know this, which is fine, but just in case it was an attempt to "gently nudge" the new player to use the "correct" terminology, I feel the need to point out that such behavior does not exactly help grow both this game in particular and the hobby in general. MMOs owe a great deal to tabletop gaming, and they are paying it back in large part simply by being what they've always been - very similar to tabletop gaming in loads and loads of ways.
Growing the game in this day and age means accepting and embracing the terminology of MMOs. Not the play-style, as WotC has successfully demonstrated the failure of doing, but some of the concepts and structures and ideas, including terminology. We gave them "tank", they give us "mob", and the cycle continues.
Of course, it's entirely possible that you weren't intending any of what I've read into your post, and if that's the case, I apologize.
Err, my bad. Got nothing against MMO's.
OP, my mistake, but still, now you know you can get swarms of humans ;D
isn't there a rule that you can only use a "normal" attack for an AoO?
you can't use cleave or vital strike when you make an AoO, so why could you use sneak attack?
All I see is this:
An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack…
Cleave is not taken in conjunction with an attack, it is a specific type of Standard Action, it replaces your normal Standard Action attack for the round you use it. Vital Strike is worded a little differently. It's something you can use any time you use the attack action, which is a Standard Action attack. But it's not replacing your normal Standard Action attack like Cleave does. It does still require you to use the attack action though and you are not taking an attack action with an AoO, you are making a single melee attack. It is an interrupt action and it is a single melee attack, but not specifically a Standard Action.
Sneak Attack, on the other hand, isn't a special kind of attack. It is extra damage that the Rogue gets any time he makes an attack while meeting specific requirements, flanking being one of those requirements. So the enemy in your scenario would be subject to the PC's SA damage.
Mob Anatomy (Ex): A mob has no clear front or back and no discernible anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or sneak attacks. A mob cannot be flanked, tripped, grappled, or bull rushed.
*edit* pretty much a swarm of humans.
i am sorry for the online slang...
MOB stands for Monster Or Beast in MMO's like Everquest and World of Warcraft. TBH my group of friends uses it both online and in pen and paper games...
Also dates back further to Runescape and is the abbreviated form of 'mobile', meaning a monster that moves around, as a opposed to static spawns. The term caught on past that, though some Everquest players still refer to something moving of its own volition as 'mobs' and those rooted to the spot as 'static spawns'.
Of course, any sensible EQ player will have macro'd [/group "Incomming %T"] to show exactly what the rest of the party should be hitting ;)
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Since the AoO is performed before he leaves the square, he is still flanked and the rogue gets +2 to his attack and his sneak attack damage.
While we're at it, there's one thing I'm still trying to figure out with flanking:
Is the enemy (E) flanked by the PCs (P) in the following situation? (X is an empty square)X P X
X E X
P X X
By RAW, no, not if the enemy is medium-sized, though that configuration will give flanking if the enemy is large. In my game, we've house-ruled that the above configuration will allow flanking, by applying the rule for large creatures to medium creatures, but by the RAW, it wouldn't, as others have pointed out.
By RAW, no, not if the enemy is medium-sized, though that configuration will give flanking if the enemy is large.
Yes and no. This is flanking a large creature:
XXPX
XEEX
XEEX
XPXX
But this is not:
XXPX
XEEX
XEEX
PXXX
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By RAW, no, not if the enemy is medium-sized, though that configuration will give flanking if the enemy is large.Yes and no. This is flanking a large creature:
XXPX
XEEX
XEEX
XPXXBut this is not:
XXPX
XEEX
XEEX
PXXX
Oops, you're right. I just rechecked the PRD, and it does say "centers." I once read a description where it said, "Trace an imaginary line from any corner of your square to any corner of your ally's square, and if it passes through opposite sides of the enemy's square, you are flanking." Now I can't remember, for the life of me, where I saw that!
Also dates back further to Runescape and is the abbreviated form of 'mobile', meaning a monster that moves around, as a opposed to static spawns. The term caught on past that, though some Everquest players still refer to something moving of its own volition as 'mobs' and those rooted to the spot as 'static spawns'.
It's a lot older than that even, actually. It goes back about 30 years to the original MUDs.
(Although it was also short for mobile in that case.)
Oops, you're right. I just rechecked the PRD, and it does say "centers." I once read a description where it said, "Trace an imaginary line from any corner of your square to any corner of your ally's square, and if it passes through opposite sides of the enemy's square, you are flanking." Now I can't remember, for the life of me, where I saw that!
I'm not sure where you might have seen that in reference to Flanking. It is in the description for determining if something has Cover.
It's a lot older than that even, actually. It goes back about 30 years to the original MUDs.(Although it was also short for mobile in that case.)
MUD's..... Multi User Dungeons... wow... am I that old....
Thanks for the info guys :D
Yes. the sneak attack happens before the move. so the dm says monster is moving from square a to square b, you say hold up, have your aoo, check for flanking and SQUISH. Kidney pie
note in the above situations the monster could use the withdraw action to avoid the aoo.
Yes. the sneak attack happens before the move. so the dm says monster is moving from square a to square b, you say hold up, have your aoo, check for flanking and SQUISH. Kidney pie
note in the above situations the monster could use the withdraw action to avoid the aoo.
He could, but would still get an AoO
X P X
X E X
X P X
"The square you start out in is not considered threatened by any opponent you can see, and therefore visible enemies do not get attacks of opportunity against you when you move from that square" (page 188)
the right most square in the middle is still threatened by both players.
hmmm.. i think the spoiler thing skewed it. Looks different from here
either that or its late and the diagram makes me want to hike a football.
Yes. the sneak attack happens before the move. so the dm says monster is moving from square a to square b, you say hold up, have your aoo, check for flanking and SQUISH. Kidney pie
note in the above situations the monster could use the withdraw action to avoid the aoo.
He could, but would still get an AoO
X P X
X E X
X P X"The square you start out in is not considered threatened by any opponent you can see, and therefore visible enemies do not get attacks of opportunity against you when you move from that square" (page 188)
the right most square in the middle is still threatened by both players.
He would, though, be able to move diagonally to avoid AoO from one of them.