Hi,
am wondering if you can use your quarry ability on a target you just cast instant enemy on. Also favored defense.
Yes for quarry; the creature is treated as a favored enemy for the duration of the spell.
Probably not for favored defense, since you need to choose the type of favored enemy when you take the feat.
IMHO, it all works, including Favored Defense. A player in one of my games recently ran it past me and that was my call.
It's okay if rangers get a few nice things. Instant Enemy feels weird to me fluffwise but mechanically I don't have a problem with it.
IMHO, it all works, including Favored Defense.
So you cast the spell and the hurry to learn the feat in the < 20 minutes before it expires? And then it's useless until the next time you cast the spell? That strikes me as rather odd. Maybe not completely impossible, but odd, definitely.
So you cast the spell and the hurry to learn the feat in the < 20 minutes before it expires? And then it's useless until the next time you cast the spell? That strikes me as rather odd. Maybe not completely impossible, but odd, definitely.
I think we're talking at cross purposes or something got lost in translation. I'll try to be a bit more precise in my meaning:
Favored Defense has as prereq the favored enemy class feature, which the ranger has a long time before he can cast Instant Enemy, so that's not an issue. You pick one of your Favored Enemy types and its benefit is that you add half your Favored Enemy bonus to AC and CMD against that creature type.
Instant Enemy lets you pick one enemy and treat it as though it were the Favored Enemy of your choice for the duration.
So for example let's take Bob the hypothetical ranger. He has a +8 Favored Enemy bonus against gnolls. He also has the Favored Defense feat and has chosen to apply it against gnolls; he gains +4 AC/CMD (half his FE bonus) against gnolls.
Bob encounters an Iron Golem, which is notably not a gnoll. He casts Instant Enemy and chooses to treat the Iron Golem as a gnoll, gaining his +8 Favored Enemy bonus to weapon attack rolls and damage rolls and so on against them.
What I'm saying: He also gains the +4 AC/CMD against the Iron Golem, because he's treating it as a gnoll for the purpose of favored enemy bonii while Instant Enemy lasts.
I think we're talking at cross purposes or something got lost in translation.
I see the problem -- I misread the spell Instant Enemy. I thought it allowed you to effectively add a new favoured enemy type to your list instead of treating the creature as an existing favoured enemy.
In that case, I agree that it works. Carry on...
Hmm.....I guess under normal circumstances this might not be that bad of a spell. Seems like someone went "Man, rangers are getting hosed. Say, I like the paladin's smite ability....I wonder.....". Granted it really only breaks when you get to 15-20 where alot of things start breaking down but you've got more options to use your "psudo-smite" and get dodge instead of deflection AC bonus (if you take favored defense), any alignment, bonus to your CMD and CMB, and more times per day, plus you can just get some pearls of power and you get even more uses. That said you'd also need to pump everything into a single FE which in most cases will default to human. If you add to this race Halfing and that the Favored Class variant Ranger +1/3 Dodge AC against FE you're really stacking it up.
Granted it is situational but there's no spell resistance or save needed. Swift action means flip on before you full attack and you're gonna make a Paladin cry as you wade through the BBEG without a second thought. Yes the paladin get's 10 more dmg but think of the AC boost you get as soon as that flips on. Paladin smites and his AC probably won't change much since he'll have some other type of deflection bonus. You cout out AC a fighter (kinda dependent on taking halfling though so not that good of an argument I suppose).
I guess it just seems a little to easy to abuse, but then there are alot of things out there that are. Just my thoughts.
I just discovered instant enemy myself, it's truly a marvelous spell that can work wonders but i think that i have to point out that the spell also says: Target one creature that is not your favored enemy
So if my 15 level ranger has the following as favored enemies: Humans +8, Undead +2, Evil outsiders +2 and Abberations +2. Now he can't use instant enemy on undead, evil outsiders and abberations (and humans obviously but there is no reason to) but against anything else he can cast instant enemy and start rocking the world.
I can see a ranger that takes humans as his 1st favored enemy and at every level that he gains a new favored enemy he pumps up humans and selects a type of creature that is REALLY unlikely to come up and/or are weak creatures, but by doing so he hinders himself until the 10th or 11th level.
I can see a ranger that takes humans as his 1st favored enemy and at every level that he gains a new favored enemy he pumps up humans and selects a type of creature that is REALLY unlikely to come up and/or are weak creatures, but by doing so he hinders himself until the 10th or 11th level.
what about buying a wand of instant enemy? or using scrolls ?
that would be functional before reaching 10th level.you may get this magical trait, that lifts your casterlevel of one casterclass by two, as long as you have more charakterlevels than casterlevels.
that would lower the casterlevelcheck giving your ranger a quiet comfortable chance to cast instant enemy successfully.
granting it to your whole group with a moveaction for some rounds as long as you have chosen to bond with it instead with an animalbuddy.
but i assume, that is no longer a rulesquestion, is it?
Once again reinforcing my view of Instant Enemy as the most BROKEN spell I've seen Paizo put out...
Once again reinforcing my view of Instant Enemy as the most BROKEN spell I've seen Paizo put out...
agreed
Once again reinforcing my view of Instant Enemy as the most BROKEN spell I've seen Paizo put out...agreed
Yes, it's so totally broken it almost doubles the amount of times when the Rangers damage is on the same level that the Fighter is on ALL THE TIME. If this spell is broken, then the entire Fighter class is broken.
Yes, it's so totally broken it almost doubles the amount of times when the Rangers damage is on the same level that the Fighter is on ALL THE TIME. If this spell is broken, then the entire Fighter class is broken.Once again reinforcing my view of Instant Enemy as the most BROKEN spell I've seen Paizo put out...agreed
Fact of the mater is if you were going for damage you'd be playing a fighter, or a wizard. Don't get me wrong, I love the Ranger. I've been playing them since AD&D. But expecting them to do as much damage as the fighter, plus have three times the skill points, plus an animal companion, plus evasion and stealth special abilities, plus the ability to heal themselves... now that would be broken.
The Fighter is a one trick pony, mind you it's a really cool bloody trick. A Ranger is a more versatile class.
And yes, the spell is broken. If one of your players came to you and asked for a third level Paladin spell that declared people evil so they could smite them would you let that fly? IT'S THE SAME THING!
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Hi,
am wondering if you can use your quarry ability on a target you just cast instant enemy on. Also favored defense.
If so this would REALLY make it optimal for rangers to put alot of FE on one enemy.
Say +8 vs evil outsiders.For example, You could see an enemy taiga giant.
Swift Cast Instant Enemy, then use Quarry as a standard action and remark at the pretty skirt he's wearing.Giant charges you and you now treat him as an evil outsider (+8 to hit/damage)
If quarry works that +8 became a +10 and you get +4 to CMD and AC vs the giant thanks to favored defense?
Cheers.
Don't forget your bane weapon since instant enemy states you treat it as that creature type for all purposes.
Yes, it's so totally broken it almost doubles the amount of times when the Rangers damage is on the same level that the Fighter is on ALL THE TIME. If this spell is broken, then the entire Fighter class is broken.Once again reinforcing my view of Instant Enemy as the most BROKEN spell I've seen Paizo put out...agreedFact of the mater is if you were going for damage you'd be playing a fighter, or a wizard. Don't get me wrong, I love the Ranger. I've been playing them since AD&D. But expecting them to do as much damage as the fighter, plus have three times the skill points, plus an animal companion, plus evasion and stealth special abilities, plus the ability to heal themselves... now that would be broken.
The Fighter is a one trick pony, mind you it's a really cool bloody trick. A Ranger is a more versatile class.
And yes, the spell is broken. If one of your players came to you and asked for a third level Paladin spell that declared people evil so they could smite them would you let that fly? IT'S THE SAME THING!
No, if I wanted Heavy Armor and great defenses, plus a boatload of Feats to increase my in-combat versatility I'd play a Fighter, and if I wanted the potential to have an answer for virtually any situation via spells I'd play a Wizard. I don't expect a Ranger to do as much damage as a Fighter, and they don't, when you factor in the Critical feats and other Fighter class features. The Pathfinder Fighter is only a one trick pony if you choose to gimp him and build him in such a manner. To compare only the damage output of one class to all of the class features of another class is unfair.
And no, the spell is not broken, and your example is invalid because Evil targets for Smite are about fifteen times more likely to be available than a Ranger's specific Favored Enemy. I don't see how a spell that will ensure that a Ranger can use his bonus two or three times per day is broken at all. Now if you allow the use of a Wand of Favored Enemy, that is your problem, as a Ranger with the Craft Wand feat is unlikely, so finding one is going to be a problem. If the PC Ranger wants to spend the feat and the wagon of gold in order to make one himself, then that, IMHO would be a fair cost.
Yes, it's so totally broken it almost doubles the amount of times when the Rangers damage is on the same level that the Fighter is on ALL THE TIME. If this spell is broken, then the entire Fighter class is broken.Once again reinforcing my view of Instant Enemy as the most BROKEN spell I've seen Paizo put out...agreedFact of the mater is if you were going for damage you'd be playing a fighter, or a wizard. Don't get me wrong, I love the Ranger. I've been playing them since AD&D. But expecting them to do as much damage as the fighter, plus have three times the skill points, plus an animal companion, plus evasion and stealth special abilities, plus the ability to heal themselves... now that would be broken.
The Fighter is a one trick pony, mind you it's a really cool bloody trick. A Ranger is a more versatile class.
And yes, the spell is broken. If one of your players came to you and asked for a third level Paladin spell that declared people evil so they could smite them would you let that fly? IT'S THE SAME THING!
No, if I wanted Heavy Armor and great defenses, plus a boatload of Feats to increase my in-combat versatility I'd play a Fighter, and if I wanted the potential to have an answer for virtually any situation via spells I'd play a Wizard. I don't expect a Ranger to do as much damage as a Fighter, and they don't, when you factor in the Critical feats and other Fighter class features. The Pathfinder Fighter is only a one trick pony if you choose to gimp him and build him in such a manner. To compare only the damage output of one class to all of the class features of another class is unfair.
And no, the spell is not broken, and your example is invalid because Evil targets for Smite are about fifteen times more likely to be available than a Ranger's specific Favored Enemy. I don't see how a spell that will ensure that a Ranger can use his bonus two or three times per day is broken...
Meh. Say what you will, immediate action, no save, no spell resistance... broken. And a Paladin can only smite a few times per day. Heck, a Ranger could often prepare more instant enemies than a Paladin could smite. Give the spell a save, or bar it. And if you allow the spell, but not a wand, then you're admitting that it's an abusive spell.
Meh. Say what you will, immediate action, no save, no spell resistance... broken. And a Paladin can only smite a few times per day. Heck, a Ranger could often prepare more instant enemies than a Paladin could smite. Give the spell a save, or bar it. And if you allow the spell, but not a wand, then you're admitting that it's an abusive spell.
Yes, immediate action, no save, no SR...just like a smite. Not broken at all. And a Ranger couldn't do this at all (without the aid of an item) until 10th level. Not broken. Also, I have no problem allowing a wand of Instant Enemy because it isn't broken at all, especially if a Ranger wants to spend his feat and money on crafting it. If he doesn't make it himself though, it would be hard to find in my games simply due to:
1. It's a spell that is only available to one class.
2. That class isn't exactly full of a bunch of item crafters.
3. It requires a crafter of at minimum 10th level.
It's definitely not something that is going to specifically be on my list of items available in almost any of my communities, but sure, a PC is welcome to look for such an item and will get to roll a percentage chance to see if they can find one for sale, or a crafter willing to make one for a price.
Also, if this sort of thing gets your knickers in a twist and really does cause Rangers to be OMGWTFBBQOP broken in your opinion, how in the heck wou you manage to run/play in a game with real casters in it without your head exploding? You want to debate the brokenness of Wizards and such, fine. Debating that one spell makes a Ranger overpowered? Not even close.
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At higher levels I could see this I could see an efficient Ranger/Paladin doing this. Ten of each levels would grant the possibility to get +8 to hit (cha 14, perhaps it should be higher due to magic items) and +26 damage, ignoring DR, + bane weapon and/or holy, against any possible enemy. Nowhere near a broken build, but could be decent.
Using wands could be more problematic, as you only take one level of ranger, use magic device, and at lvl 11 paladin, you start granting all your allies double your level in damage.
The wording of the spell, does allow some uses that I think are unintended. A ranger/cleric or necromancer, can turn/command undead, as well as using some undead related spells that are better than their living creatures counterpart (such as halt undead, which targets 3 undeads, compared to 1 from hold person).
EDIT: This might not be that efficient, as command undead is only a charm person on an intelligent undead, and instant enemy only targets one creature. The ranger/cleric could use some of his powers, but the necromacer won't gain much.
I don't see it as broken without the wand. But I think there are some very interesting (and potentially a bit unbalancing uses), for examples a ranger could use it to use his plant/animal/vermin related spells on other creatures.
Animal growth could become a very good buff spells used on the ranger himself or his melee party members, compared to enlarge person, with its +8 str +4 con, -2 dex, and +2 NA.
Generally I think an errata stating that Instant enemy doesn't allow you to treat the target as the type for spells would be in order, but until then, it could be fun.
Also, if this sort of thing gets your knickers in a twist and really does cause Rangers to be OMGWTFBBQOP broken in your opinion, how in the heck wou you manage to run/play in a game with real casters in it without your head exploding? You want to debate the brokenness of Wizards and such, fine. Debating that one spell makes a Ranger overpowered? Not even close.
Hehehe, I use it as one basement of my ranger-build. my gamemaster almost everytime complains that it were IMBA. It appears to me being pretty strong, too. But then we have no fighter in comparison. I also like your thoughts about the poor availability of an wand of it.
I do think the spell is broken. Not power-wise though. The thing is that the spell is a far better combat spell than all other ranger spells, so it's a no-brainer. That breaks the ranger spell list, which is why I don't like it. All rangers will use it, and often almost exclusively. Make it a standard action to cast - and it's fine. Make it a 4th level spell and it might be fine (though I think it's in the strongest league among 4th level spells too). It's not broken as in "this makes the ranger too good" but rather as in "this is a non-choice; i'll get this most every time".
Note though, that when used from a wand it takes a standard action. Wand activation takes a standard action or the casting time of the spell, whichever is longest.
It's a ridiculous spell in so many ways.
Utter nonsense.
It's a ridiculous spell in so many ways.
It's an Enchantment spell with no saving throw.
It's a swift action spell with a decent duration.
It says "This air elemental is actually a lot like the humans you've been training to fight all your career."
When you first get the spell, it's better than triple strength Bull's strength against that target. Utter nonsense.
No offense, but I've seen your thoughts on the power level of the Monk class, so I will choose to ignore your thoughts on whether or not this spell is overpowered.
No offense, but I've seen your thoughts on the power level of the Monk class, so I will choose to ignore your thoughts on whether or not this spell is overpowered.It's a ridiculous spell in so many ways.
It's an Enchantment spell with no saving throw.
It's a swift action spell with a decent duration.
It says "This air elemental is actually a lot like the humans you've been training to fight all your career."
When you first get the spell, it's better than triple strength Bull's strength against that target. Utter nonsense.
Disregarding someones view on this because of their view on other maters seems childish. And I'm not sure about what Majuba says, but the Monk is a vastly underpowered class... and not thematic...
I do think the spell is broken. Not power-wise though. The thing is that the spell is a far better combat spell than all other ranger spells, so it's a no-brainer. That breaks the ranger spell list, which is why I don't like it. All rangers will use it, and often almost exclusively. Make it a standard action to cast - and it's fine. Make it a 4th level spell and it might be fine (though I think it's in the strongest league among 4th level spells too). It's not broken as in "this makes the ranger too good" but rather as in "this is a non-choice; i'll get this most every time".
Note though, that when used from a wand it takes a standard action. Wand activation takes a standard action or the casting time of the spell, whichever is longest.
Thank you. I think the point some people are missing is that I'm not saying the Ranger is overpowered. As I stated in my initial post, I love the Ranger. My next character is going to be a Ranger. It's the spell I have issue with.
Yes, immediate action, no save, no SR...just like a smite. Not broken at all. And a Ranger couldn't do this at all (without the aid of an item) until 10th level. Not broken.
Most of my games have my players reach 10th. Heck, many of my games top at 16th-18th. Of course that is not the point here. The point is that the spell is overpowered, not how available it is.
Also, if this sort of thing gets your knickers in a twist and really does cause Rangers to be OMGWTFBBQOP broken in your opinion, how in the heck wou you manage to run/play in a game with real casters in it without your head exploding? You want to debate the brokenness of Wizards and such, fine. Debating that one spell makes a Ranger overpowered? Not even close.
Firstly, I've never had a problem with wizards being overpowered. But seeing as to how that is not the subject of this thread we'll move on. Heck, Instant Enemy being overpowered isn't really the subject here. Secondly, again, you are saying that I claim the Ranger is overpowered. I never have. This spell is. Am I saying it's a game breaker? No. I'm just saying it suffers from balance issues. So does Life Bubble, but that's neither here nor there. Finally I've been running games for the past decade. There is no reason to try to antagonize me by calling my ability to run/play the game into question. I'm sorry if my opposing stance offends you, but there's no need to get your knickers in a twist.
I do think the spell is broken. Not power-wise though. The thing is that the spell is a far better combat spell than all other ranger spells, so it's a no-brainer. That breaks the ranger spell list, which is why I don't like it. All rangers will use it, and often almost exclusively. Make it a standard action to cast - and it's fine. Make it a 4th level spell and it might be fine (though I think it's in the strongest league among 4th level spells too). It's not broken as in "this makes the ranger too good" but rather as in "this is a non-choice; i'll get this most every time".
Note though, that when used from a wand it takes a standard action. Wand activation takes a standard action or the casting time of the spell, whichever is longest.
Let me get this straight...
When considered as a stand alone ability and comparing the result to other classes, the spell is okay.
When comparing it to other ranger spells, it's overpowered.
Perhaps then you should houserule this into a standard ranger ability, removing it as a spell.
Frankly I don't see the spell as overpowered. There are other 3rd level spells that are very useful. I'm playing a 13th level ranger in a RotRL campaign and I only memorize 1 Instant Enemy Spell per day, the other goes to a Greater Magic Fang to my animal companion so he can actually hit stuff slightly more often. And because of the nature of that campaign, there are plenty of days where I don't even cast it, seeing as two of my Favored Enemies are Giants and Dragons.
When something is a "must have" but that must have is not inherently overpowered when compared to other classes, the ability isn't "overpowered", all the other options are "underpowered".
Really, how overpowered is, is quite relative.
It gets better the more you pump one FE over the others.
Pumping one FE OVER the others actually hurts you over enemies encountered. It means 1 FE rocks and the others are mediocre.Being ableto actually cast it kicks in at level 10.
So 1/2 your levels you can't have it.
That means one +2 enemy and one +4 enemy before you get it. that's normal.Before this spell, most Rangers would go
+4
+4
+4
+4
+2 ontheir FE (to get a good all round bonus)
usually on what they assume will be common (and maybe for the odd dragon)Now you shoot for either a +8 (leaving a +4 and 3 plus 2's)
or +10 (the rest 2's)At high levels you looking at 4-7 castings a day (with pearls of power)
Instant enemy only workz for non FE targets.So now you've got smaller bonuses on 4/5 FE's, that is you chose well, you're seeing a lot of (since as a DM is consider it courtesy to allow a ranger to know the most regionally common monsters in the AP we're playing. Not specifically, but all very good hunters should know roughly what game is in their home country.)
Cheers
Fair enough, and you do raise a valid point. To truly utilize this spell you often have to focus in a single enemy. To be fair, most Rangers in games I've run do focus in a single enemy.
Like the above post about Giants and Dragons in RotRL's, Humans in CotCT, Elves in SD, etc...
Point is it's not for everyone, but it is unbalanced. I'd honestly be fine if it was a Standard Action, but to each their own.
+1 to Irontruth: I also think instant enemy should be removed from the ranger spell list and added as a class feature. Like once per day at level 11 and one more time every 2 levels.
It's far too overpowered compared to the rest of the available ranger spells, and at the same time, it's roughly the main reason why you would go over level 6 in the ranger class.