To me, the only thing broken about the Summoner is his spells list.
He got Black Tentacles at level 6, 1 level before the Wizard, and the Wizard doesn't have a pet monster... oO
Atanas post up your eidolon and then we'll discuss how powerful it is.
Remember that the summoner is a caster. He may not be technically a full caster, but the fact that he got some very powerful spells as fast (or faster) than a full caster makes him something close to a full caster. And, like every full casters, he will be overpowered if you play in a low-fantasy campaign (where the PCs have less than the suggested WBL), unless you make some tweaks to the class.
Also, 3d8+15 at 9th level in a medium-fantasy campaign is not really high. A decent fighter, even constructed under 15-points buy system, could do more damage than that (with magic gears), while having a way better AC than the eidolon at the same time. A summoner needs to split his wealth between his eidolon and himself.
Summoners don't actually get black tentacles at 6th level. They do however get a few Wiz/Sorc level 3 spells at their 4th level and 9th level spells at 16th level.
Yeah you're right, my eyes were crossed while I was reading the table. :P
A couple questions, though wanted to coment on Two things. First using what I guess is either /very/ good rolls or a 25? pt build isnt a good example for saying if a class is too strong or not.
Second Why does the Eidolon have a second Slam attack -5 of the first one? It should have the singe one at +15. what did you spend the Ability increase on? if it was to strength it costs double once you have the large Evolution.
somone correct me if i am wrong, but dont you need the Medium armor feat to use Mithril medium armor?
Id also like to add that looking over I dont understand where half your buffs are from and Given the Summoner by himself could probly beat my barbarian in our current game by himself (without his eidolon) im thinking the amount of optimization is beyond my experience witht he game.
Ok,
I see a couple of problems.
1st, Mithral makes the armor one size category lighter for purposes of speed and class abilities, but it doesn't change it to light armor. That is a specific change between 3.5 and PF. So, your summoner needs MWP to wear it, or he takes the ACP to all skills and checks etc.
Multi-attack is being used wrong. It seems you are granting him multiple attacks with each natural weapon based on iterative attacks. That is wrong (but I could be misreading you). Multiattack reduces the penalty for secondary attacks, it doesn't grant iterative attacks. When you have natural weapons, you can either full attack with all natural weapons, or you can make iterative weapon attacks, you can't combine the two.
Mithril makes the armor 1 type lighter; Thus, a medium armor made of mithril instead of steel is light armor.
This is not actually correct. The armor is considered light armor for the purpose of movement speed, but it does not change the proficiency to wear the armor. To quote http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/special-materials
'Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor.'
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Multi-attack is being used wrong. It seems you are granting him multiple attacks with each natural weapon based on iterative attacks. That is wrong (but I could be misreading you). Multiattack reduces the penalty for secondary attacks, it doesn't grant iterative attacks. When you have natural weapons, you can either full attack with all natural weapons, or you can make iterative weapon attacks, you can't combine the two.
In this case, you are close to being right. Multi-Attack doesn't give extra attacks.. unless Eidolons(and Animal Companions) don't have the 3 natural attacks needed to actually have the feat.
Multiattack: An eidolon gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has 3 or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite
3 or more natural attacks (or it is reduced to less than 3
attacks), the eidolon instead gains a second attack with
one of its natural weapons, albeit at a –5 penalty. If the
eidolon later gains 3 or more natural attacks, it loses this
additional attack and instead gains Multiattack.
Read what it says under the size bit for Large. If you raise your con or your strength it doubles the cost. do it becoems a 4 pt evolution.
Secondly the only Eidolon who has a reach increase going to large is the Humanoid.
Your snake has reach 10 for free with the Bite attack, and Reach 10 with the Slam (which you paid for) but reach 5 for anything else.
Multi-attack is being used wrong. It seems you are granting him multiple attacks with each natural weapon based on iterative attacks. That is wrong (but I could be misreading you). Multiattack reduces the penalty for secondary attacks, it doesn't grant iterative attacks. When you have natural weapons, you can either full attack with all natural weapons, or you can make iterative weapon attacks, you can't combine the two.In this case, you are close to being right. Multi-Attack doesn't give extra attacks.. unless Eidolons(and Animal Companions) don't have the 3 natural attacks needed to actually have the feat.
Multiattack: An eidolon gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has 3 or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite
3 or more natural attacks (or it is reduced to less than 3
attacks), the eidolon instead gains a second attack with
one of its natural weapons, albeit at a –5 penalty. If the
eidolon later gains 3 or more natural attacks, it loses this
additional attack and instead gains Multiattack.
Yep, sorry, he had the 3 attacks, so I wasn't very precise. Thanks for clarifying it.
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Now, I'm no math wiz, but unless I am mistaken (which I may as you listed no equipment other than the weapon and armor. Stat-enhancing items would be great to know if you have them or not) you have stats that are upwards of a 30 point buy, if not a 40 pt buy. So... you kinda are automatically out of the running for saying if a class is "broken" or not.
Second, you have a flaw, which again is NOT part of PF and therefore can't really be used for determining "broken"-ness.
Third, a 1st level summoner can't take Power Attack, as you don't have a +1 BAB. Actually, this has no real effect, but still. Second, you took Lunge at level three, when it has a +6 BAB pre-req. Summoner is 3/4 BAB, you don't get +6 until 8th level, so can't take it until 9th. Oh, looky there, hello Force of Personality. Don't you belong in 3.5 too? And doesn't the same go for your little buddy, Mr. Hold the Line?
(you also got the stats for the mithral breastplate wrong; it should be +8 AC, +5 Max Dex, and 0 ACP)
As for your Attacks with the buffs, I'm not even going to try the math on those, they seem to be a little bonked (no offense, but with a +6 BAB, a 26 STR [+8 mod], a masterwork weapon [+1], power attack [-2], and large size [-1], you should have a +12 to hit, +13 when hasted. Is your other party buffs making up a +9/+10 to hit? Also, you have two attacks from BAB, maybe with a third from haste. That's two attacks at full BAB and 1 at BAB-5.
You are also looking at ALOT of extra stuff from buffs.
And to the Eidolon:
Evolution Points:
1) Large costs 4 pts, not 3.
2) Since it's large, Ability Increase cost 4 pts, not 2.
3) Slam costs 1 pt, not 2.
4) Pretty sure the slam should be 2d8 not 3d6
5) For your attacks: Attack Rolls +7 BAB, +7 for STR, -1 for Large. That is a +13 to hit, not a +15. Factor in Power Attack, that's a +11 to hit. As for the added damage, +7 for STR and +4 for power attack. That's a +11 to damage for primary attacks, a +5 for secondary attacks. And the full attack would be a bite at full BAB, Slam at full BAB, and tail slap at BAB-5. Bite should also be a 20/x2, why would it be a 19-20/x2?
So... either you gave a very truncated stat block or your math was kinda wonky or I missed something. Or a combination of the three.
The problem with 'Don't sweat the details, it's broke, see!' is that the devil is in the details. As has been pointed out, the details are wrong, take 6 or 7 details that are off, and your eidelon's power goes down, so does your summoner.
And, as to the 3.5 stuff, that can't be blamed on the class. 3.5 stuff was borked to begin with. You have to be careful with mixing the two, they can have unintended side effects.
A couple things then to perhaps make it Simply. a Fighter with all your Example Buffs would be /far/ stronger than the Summoner and cane Recieve most of themm.
The reason i am Harping on all the Details is that, it makes for a Very pooor example if the Math is wrong. a 15 pt Buy Summoner with all the Math correct on his Eidolon basically wont look anything like your above example.
Alot of what you have mostly proven is that high point Build Produces Really strong characters.
Alot of people realy seem to focus on fighters but my experience mostly is that /nothing/ touches them when it comes to Melee damage and Nothing in Normal play seems to disagree with that.
Not sure anyone else said this- I didn't see it.. if someone else said it, I apologize:
No one gets reach on their Eidolon without taking the Reach evolution. Period. Going to large or whatever doesn't do it for Big E, because Big E states exactly what he gets for going large. Reach isn't on the list so he doesn't get it.
-S
The problem with 'Don't sweat the details, it's broke, see!' is that the devil is in the details. As has been pointed out, the details are wrong, take 6 or 7 details that are off, and your eidelon's power goes down, so does your summoner.
And, as to the 3.5 stuff, that can't be blamed on the class. 3.5 stuff was borked to begin with. You have to be careful with mixing the two, they can have unintended side effects.
+1 on both of these things, but especially the first.
Summoner is a good class, I can't deny that -- but broken, eh, not so much. Unless you assume it goes into every fight with all of its rounds-per-level-duration or heavy-GP-component-cost spells already active, for some reason.
Don't all casters buff before combat? ;)
[Edit:/ Most of the buffs i listed are minute per level, and the point is that this build is powerful solo. Yes it buffs itself, but barbs rage for a bonus to stats and damage. Summoner can too, if he wants to give up casting for X rounds]
And stoneskin is a luxury, not every combat. Displacement is every combat imho.But regardless. Any barb/fighter builds that dish 3d6+18 at level 9?
I have a mild ranger build with a falchion that deals 2d4 +16 and his schtick isnt even damage its hinderances on the enemy. 3d6+18 is not that impressive.
Not to mention man you ignored a very valid post I have yet to see you counter by AlanM... I am waiting to see where your numbers are because that is definitely a little off, I ran them myself to be sure.
The problem with 'Don't sweat the details, it's broke, see!' is that the devil is in the details. As has been pointed out, the details are wrong, take 6 or 7 details that are off, and your eidelon's power goes down, so does your summoner.
And, as to the 3.5 stuff, that can't be blamed on the class. 3.5 stuff was borked to begin with. You have to be careful with mixing the two, they can have unintended side effects.
I was under the impression that pathfinder was supposed to be compatible w/ the majority of 3.5 materials. Is this not the case?
Power attack: Gives 1.5x str modifier when using a 2 handed weapon, for +6 additional damage, with -2 to attack
No stat enhancing equipment.
He has a vampire torc, boots of...
It is compatible, but that only means they play well together rule wise. It does not mean you can add anything and keep things balanced. 3.5 was not even balanced with 3.5 all the time. Every time you add a splatbook to any system powercreep sets in. That is why DM's should be careful about what they let into their games. In order to judge balance it is best to stick with the core rules.
Not sure anyone else said this- I didn't see it.. if someone else said it, I apologize:
No one gets reach on their Eidolon without taking the Reach evolution. Period. Going to large or whatever doesn't do it for Big E, because Big E states exactly what he gets for going large. Reach isn't on the list so he doesn't get it.
-S
Unless it's a biped eidolon, which it isn't.
Also,
[Eidolon]Feats: Power Attack, Blindfight*, Cleave, Combat Reflexes
[*Summoner gains this a limited number of rounds per day via "Shared Senses." Handy against assassins]
Assuming you mean the Bond Senses ability (since Share Senses isn't a Summoner spell), there's nothing that says you can do that.
Don't all casters buff before combat? ;)
[Edit:/ Most of the buffs i listed are minute per level]
the point is that this build is powerful solo. Yes it buffs itself, but barbs rage for a bonus to stats and damage. Summoner can too, if he wants to give up casting for X rounds
[EditEdit:/ Extend spell ftw.]
And stoneskin is a luxury, not every combat. Displacement is every combat imho.But regardless. Any barb/fighter builds that dish 3d6+18 at level 9?
All casters buff before combat if they have a chance too. Sometimes you are just walking along minding your own business when monsters decide they want to eat you. Even if they cast in the middle of a fight those buffs come 1 at time, maybe 2(if it is 2 casters). The fight may be over before the last buff, or the caster may be taken down before all those buffs get applied.
yes, they can recieve every buff you used as an example there except shield i believe.. The barbarian i play in our Sunday game with all those buffs would be.. 28 str (18 base +4 rage, +2 Enlarge,+4 bull strength) so +19 to hit (+9 bab, +9 strength, +2 enhancement, -2 Pa, +1 haste) for 3d6 +24 (+13 for strength, +2 for enhancement +9 for Pa)
then bite for +12 1d6+7 (math on the bite may be off im doing this off the top of my head
for +18/+18/+14 3d6+24 and +12 1d6+7
Or claws for +17/+17/+17 1d8+15 and bite for +7
and /alot/ of hps compared to the Summoner/eidolon.
Im sure people better with the numbers can do better than this though.If my char was built ont he Same point buy as yours it would probly have 30? strength at least. with all those buffs
Edit i made a mistake with Pa and applied -2 instead of -3 but im too lazy to fix it :P
I'd be very interested to know what 'party buffs' you're getting. I suspect plenty of them don't stack with your self buffs. Morale bonuses especially. It's very hard to point to issues when you've given the buff numbers, but not the full details of how you got them.
mmmmmmmmm
America Loves Kraft.
I think the only thing in my initial post not in PFRPG books was hold the line, I think.It is compatible, but that only means they play well together rule wise. It does not mean you can add anything and keep things balanced. 3.5 was not even balanced with 3.5 all the time. Every time you add a splatbook to any system powercreep sets in. That is why DM's should be careful about what they let into their games. In order to judge balance it is best to stick with the core rules.I was under the impression that pathfinder was supposed to be compatible w/ the majority of 3.5 materials. Is this not the case?
I was just going off of the "supposed to be compatible" statement. My point was only that 3.5 material will not always work with pathfinder. It was more of a general statement than anything regarding your build specifically.
As for Share Senses
School divination (scrying); Level sorcerer/wizard 4, witch 3Upon casting this spell you can hear, see, or smell (any one, your choice)what your familiar is experiencing. You gain the benefits of any nonmagical special abilities your familiar has tied to the
chosen sense (such as low-light vision or scent), but use your
own Perception skill.
Blind-fight does not affect any ability that has to do with hearing, seeing, or smelling. Notice how the two examples specifically affect sight, and vision.
It is also not on your class list, and it specifically calls out familiars. An Eidolon is not a familiar.
mmmmmmmmm
America Loves Kraft.
Be Nice. He is trying to power it down so I think it is an issue of rules being misunderstood, as opposed to munchkinsim going on.
edit:changed to discourage any potential flames.
yes, they can recieve every buff you used as an example there except shield i believe.. The barbarian i play in our Sunday game with all those buffs would be.. 28 str (18 base +4 rage, +2 Enlarge,+4 bull strength) so +19 to hit (+9 bab, +9 strength, +2 enhancement, -2 Pa, +1 haste) for 3d6 +24 (+13 for strength, +2 for enhancement +9 for Pa)
then bite for +12 1d6+7 (math on the bite may be off im doing this off the top of my headfor +19/+19/+14 3d6+24 and +12 1d6+7
Or claws for +17/+17/+17 1d8+15 and bite for +7
and /alot/ of hps compared to the Summoner/eidolon.
Im sure people better with the numbers can do better than this though.If my char was built ont he Same point buy as yours it would probly have 30? strength at least. with all those buffs
The point I tried to make is that the barb cant buff himself, while a summoner can (given time, obviously)
I'd have to call my DM/other players for the specifics regarding party buffs (+10 attack, +6 damage), although the party wizard has been gaming for like 8-10 years, and is almost never wrong about anything in my experience thus far.
A summoner can buff himself but an Eidolon can't*. If you want to compare a buffed(anything) to an unbuffed (anything else) the buffed creature almost always has the upperhand.
*I think you are comparing the summoner and eidolon to the fighter, and not just the eidolon. I may be wrong though. If you are then action of economy alone will make the summoner+eidolon a tough combo.
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Don't all casters buff before combat? ;)
When they can... but it's rarely possible to predict encounters are coming anywhere near 100% of the time. It's pretty safe to assume you will have 10 min/ level buffs fired up but rounds/ level buffs are pretty uncertain. Particularly since you have multiple rounds/ level buffs built into your assumption (displacement and haste).
Stoneskin is much more likely to be active since it's 10 min/ level than displacement.
right but If your doing the 'this is what my character can be at its very best' example which i think would have involved 8? 9? rounds of buffing.
and then saying Class X which can recieve all those buffs and one of his party members can easily give the to him. The part ive /always/ found friutrating about this X vs fighter threads is they /always/ treat the fighter/barb whatever as unbuffed.
so if your Spending 9 rounds buffing and your parties barb/fighter isnt going into the fight with any or only some of those buffs. the problem isnt the class but group strategy.
Ive actualy only ever gone that buffed with my barbarian once for a boss fight. And then Promptly got blinded. so that was a bit of a downer :P
1) I can't tell if all your numbers are correct, because I don't know what your party buffs are. And your friend may be absolutely correct that none of his buffs are not stackable. But, that doesn't mean that your self buffs stack with them. Example, he might be giving you a +4 Morale, a +4 circumstance, and a +2 Luck. If your self buffs are a +4 Morale, a +3 circumstance, and a +2 holy, then your buffs are not stackable with his (other than the +2 holy). But without that information, it's swinging in the dark at a strawman.
2) Comparing two of anything to 1 of something is always going to leave the 1 at a disadvantage. If you want to compare a Summoner to a base class, compare it to a druid with an animal companion. Not a fighter. Comparing a druid/companion fully kitted for war to a fighter makes the druid class look borked. Again, it's a 2 to 1 comparison.
What did the Munchkins ever do to you!? lolmmmmmmmmm
America Loves Kraft.
Be Nice. He is trying to power it down so I think it is an issue of rules being misunderstood, as opposed to munchkinsim going on.
edit:changed to discourage any potential flames.
The wiki link is a PR stunt. Muchkins are evil. I have first hand knowledge.
As an extra bit of trivia they are related to the gremlins that destroy mechanical things, but munchkins only affect certain games.
LoL. Be Nice. He is trying to power it down so I think it is an issue of rules being misunderstood, as opposed to munchkinsim going on.mmmmmmmmm
America Loves Kraft.
I don't understand the kraft statement, but no munchkinism here?
No, I didn't read the long description of the spell, only the description under the summoner entry.
Bond Senses (Su): Starting at 2nd level, a summoner
can, as a standard action, share the senses of his eidolon,
hearing, seeing, smelling, tasting, and touching everything
the eidolon does. He can use this ability a number of
rounds per day equal to his summoner level. There is no
range to this effect, but the eidolon and the summoner
must be on the same plane. The summoner can end this
effect as a free action.It would work better w/ blindsense, as opposed to blind-fight, naturally.
The only real point I had hoped to make initially, is that pure melee classes can't match damage on a class that can buff itself and melee w/ comparable gear. (Meaning through feats or class abilities)
Is this not the case in PFRPG? If not, list the abilities/feats available?
Just to double-check: My numbers are correct, yes?
[Edit:/ Addition: I was speaking just fighter vs. summoner (no eidolon). Things got off topic for a while.
The kraft statement was referring to cheese(a cheap trick).
The bondsense thing is not the spell I thought it was. It still does not allow you to access someone else's feats though. IT would have to specifically say so.Blindsense does not use any of the senses involved. It is more like echolocation most of the time so you could not use that either by the rules.
If you are comparing the summoner + eidolon combo then the combo should be more useful in general, but when it comes to fighting the fighter should come out ahead. Remember the summoner and the eidolon have to share slots for magic items, so one of them will probably be weaker in certain aspects than it would be otherwise.
In short the summoner class has more utility, but utility is not a fighter's strong point anyway.
LoL. Be Nice. He is trying to power it down so I think it is an issue of rules being misunderstood, as opposed to munchkinsim going on.mmmmmmmmm
America Loves Kraft.
I don't understand the kraft statement, but no munchkinism here?
No, I didn't read the long description of the spell, only the description under the summoner entry.
Bond Senses (Su): Starting at 2nd level, a summoner
can, as a standard action, share the senses of his eidolon,
hearing, seeing, smelling, tasting, and touching everything
the eidolon does. He can use this ability a number of
rounds per day equal to his summoner level. There is no
range to this effect, but the eidolon and the summoner
must be on the same plane. The summoner can end this
effect as a free action.It would work better w/ blindsense, as opposed to blind-fight, naturally.
The only real point I had hoped to make initially, is that pure melee classes can't match damage on a class that can buff itself and melee w/ comparable gear. (Meaning through feats or class abilities)
Is this not the case in PFRPG? If not, list the abilities/feats available?
Just to double-check: My numbers are correct, yes?
[Edit:/ Addition: I was speaking just fighter vs. summoner (no eidolon). Things got off topic for a while.
Ignore my last statement it was a lame cheap thing to say. It was a small joke that your eidolon was cheese (overpowered or munchkinned).
Again just ignore it :)
On to the matter at hand.
I wish my party gave me all the buffs you get i would be swinging a +26 with PA and doing 2d4 + 22 to damage per swing... and damage again isnt this rangers schtick... and its a ranger not a fighter or barbarian. So I have an animal companion and spells and some other stuff going for me like stealth and skills.
Not impressed sir, especially since I used a 20 pt buy and no 3.5 material (the flaws varient is broken because most take a flaw that doesnt effect them, hold the line isnt broken as hell I guess)
Oh all the enemies of the Crown would love to have that bondsense you're talking about.
The bondsense thing is not the spell I thought it was.
I see my typo has been turned into a joke. [cast silence on a particle of dust that is on KR] :)
A Bit before i go to bed, if somone has more time to add to this since i said you cant really use an uberstat char as an example of over balance. If somone can Maybe give an example what a Normal Eidolon melee summoner look like on 15 pt buy (or 20 i guess if youw ant to use that since thats what is the PFS standard right?)
I can try it in the morning thugh when i am more awake if no one else does.
right but If your doing the 'this is what my character can be at its very best' example which i think would have involved 8? 9? rounds of buffing.
and then saying Class X which can recieve all those buffs and one of his party members can easily give the to him. The part ive /always/ found friutrating about this X vs fighter threads is they /always/ treat the fighter/barb whatever as unbuffed.so if your Spending 9 rounds buffing and your parties barb/fighter isnt going into the fight with any or only some of those buffs. the problem isnt the class but group strategy.
Ive actualy only ever gone that buffed with my barbarian once for a boss fight. And then Promptly got blinded. so that was a bit of a downer :P
Right, so OP ignore the rest of the guys who didn't read your first post about going fighter vs Summoner (and only summoner, no big E) in a melee fight.
and belive me if your fighting a single guy after 9 rounds of buff, just to be fair, either the guy gets 9 rounds to attack you while you buff, or he gets the same buffs. compare them non buffed then compare both buffed and see what results you get