Using animals, other than animal companions, is reaaaally hard in D&D past level 1. They simply die TOO easily. And I can see a reason for this, in that pet classes should have their schtick and that we don't want people running around with 30 dogs, but still, I'd like to play the first level ranger who has a hunting dog, and I'd like to be able to play the mounted fighter who isn't obsolete after level 2 due to his mount dying.
So I thought, since HP is randomly rolled, that you should be able to buy over-average animals. Now, this won't make animals tough enough for high levels of course, but could allow them to stay for a level or two extra if you take care of them. There's a huge difference in dying from a hit and getting the dying condition from a hit.
For example, the average guard dog (riding dog stats) has 2d8+4 hit points (13 average). I could see someone selling "the finest mastiff you've ever seen, so perfect even Count Baldermore wanted to buy it before he got killed by his wife!". A dog where both rolls were 8s, and thus the HP is 20 instead. Of course, only 1/64 dogs will be that good, and thus the price should be 64 times higher...
While it wouldn't survive a dragon bite, it would survive that critical from an orc falchion (which the standard dog could very well die from)
I could also see advancing animals with additional HD, but I don't like increasing their offensive output as much as just increasing survivability. And I prefer to do it within the rules if possible.
In a 3.X game I ran for a group of 6 players at level 1 there was a run in with some goblins (the players had wandered in the middle of a turf war between goblins and kobolds). Their pack mule got spooked after being attacked and took a kick at a goblin slashing at it with a worn knife (I was going to have run to the safety of the tree line after it missed and have the PC's collect it after the battle). Critical hit; and there was one dead goblin. In the next fight a similiar situation occured. By the end of the session it had killed 3 goblins and a kobold. When I was giving out XP the party asked if it was going to get a share after all the work it did, I asked them if they'd like me to split the XP 7 ways instead of 6 and advance the mule in HD as it would "gain levels". They felt it was fair, and it certainly didn't seem to be as powerful as an additional player character, so I didn't see the harm. The donkey made it to "level 7" before finally dying. It was the best war trained animal ever, complete with magic chain barding and masterwork spiked shoes. And EVERYBODY knew the adventuring crew who had the deadly donkey as their mascot. I believe when they were tallying up kills between the fighting types to see who had bragging rights as the superior warrior, the mule outclassed them all.
The easiest way to get better animals is simply to buy higher level ones.
Advance them using the monster advancement rules so that they have more hit dice.
The SRD inculdes many breeds of dogs, for example.
A prize hunting dog might be a Badgerhound (+2 perception, +3 with scent) with 4 levels of advancement. A fighting dog may be a level 4 Bull Mastiff with the level 4 bonus to STR or CON.
The easiest way to get better animals is simply to buy higher level ones.
Advance them using the monster advancement rules so that they have more hit dice.The SRD inculdes many breeds of dogs, for example.
A prize hunting dog might be a Badgerhound (+2 perception, +3 with scent) with 4 levels of advancement. A fighting dog may be a level 4 Bull Mastiff with the level 4 bonus to STR or CON.
Any suggestions on how to determine cost of the advanced animal?
Think of the prices paid for prize racehorses and the stories of the Celts paying amazing prices for prize hounds.
From a game mechanics end, look at the prices paid for stuff like griffon eggs and hippogriffs and such. If your advanced dog is as good as a griffon, it should consequently sell for about the same price.
There should also be advanced housecats which have killed goblin rats and so on. Prize mousers, that sort of thing.
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Any suggestions on how to determine cost of the advanced animal?
I filled the Pathfinder Core Book animals into a spreadsheet and played around until I had something I liked. I used Light Horse, Heavy Horse, Pony, and Riding Dog, all trained for war. Also Guard Dog, Representing any non-ridable 1HD creature.
For the first advancement, I added 300 gold, to make the equivalent of a Masterwork Mount. (Any multiplier I tried gave a a huge discount to pony riders and penalty to heavy horse riders, which I didn't think was appropriate.) After the first, I doubled the price for each added advancement.
So, a light horse would cost:
Core book price 110
1 advancement 410
2 advancements 820
3 advancements 1640
4 advancements 3280
5 advancements 6560
I compared this to the expected wealth per level table, and was happy with the result. At any given level, it costs 5-10% of a character's expected wealth to have a mount with 1/2 his HD, but it is prohibitively pricey to get a mount with HD equal to his own. This is just about right, since it will keep purchased mounts from rivaling animal companions & paladin mounts.
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If you do make a money cost to getting a better animal (and I like the idea) the better they are, the more expensive they should get!
Be careful with stats, as they are so important, but extra hitpoints, an extra feat could all be useful. I would not allow the animal to gain xp, it does not have the mental capacity to 'learn' except by rote (Sit, Down, Stay!)
Something along the lines of:
+1 HP: +10% cost
+2 HP: +25%
+3 HP: +50%
+4 HP: +75%
+1 Hit Die: +150% (it may give them additional BAB, Saves)
+1 Skill Point: +20%
+2 Skill Point: +50%
+1 Feat +100% (Limited to normal animal feats; maybe even restricted to a "Dogs can choose... X, Y or Z feats" to further limit it.)
And have all cost cumulative.
I would also be very cautious about making animals *more* potent than that. As was already said you don't want the Fighter's guard dog to be nastier than the Druid's Wolf-Companion
GNOME
Eberron had the magebred animals template or something like that as a way to make them tougher and smarter. That would be a useful thing to look at.
The Advance Mount feat in Monte Cook's Book of Experimental Might II allows you to add 2 HD to your mount for each time you take the feat, but you cannot advance your mount's HD higher than your own.
You can only do this for a mount that you spent time with yourself, however. In other words, you can't buy an animal advanced in this manner.
Any suggestions on how to determine cost of the advanced animal?I filled the Pathfinder Core Book animals into a spreadsheet and played around until I had something I liked. I used Light Horse, Heavy Horse, Pony, and Riding Dog, all trained for war. Also Guard Dog, Representing any non-ridable 1HD creature.
For the first advancement, I added 300 gold, to make the equivalent of a Masterwork Mount. (Any multiplier I tried gave a a huge discount to pony riders and penalty to heavy horse riders, which I didn't think was appropriate.) After the first, I doubled the price for each added advancement.
So, a light horse would cost:
Core book price 110
1 advancement 410
2 advancements 820
3 advancements 1640
4 advancements 3280
5 advancements 6560I compared this to the expected wealth per level table, and was happy with the result. At any given level, it costs 5-10% of a character's expected wealth to have a mount with 1/2 his HD, but it is prohibitively pricey to get a mount with HD equal to his own. This is just about right, since it will keep purchased mounts from rivaling animal companions & paladin mounts.
I like this. The only thing I would change is to make the 1st advancement cost 400 gp and then do all the doubling from there. I like round numbers.
That being said, let me make sure I understand what you mean by # of advancements. Do you mean essentially each CR increase?
So the light horse is CR 1 and costs 110 gold. If we advance it by adding 2 hit dice and making it a CR 3, that would cost 1640 gp. The same as if we added the half-dragon template.
Ive have in the past had this same problem. What weve done as a gaming group have is allowed the magebred template & horrid template for animal companions, and also allowed animals outside the norm, such as my goblins crocdile I used in my Eberron Sharn city campaign. My last Dwarf character had a stormlizard not to shabby.
Wouldn't it be 820? That's two advancements over the base.
Sure, if you can add 1+2. Apparently I can't. Originally I was increasing it by 3 hit dice and I forgot to go back and fix it.
I like this. The only thing I would change is to make the 1st advancement cost 400 gp and then do all the doubling from there. I like round numbers.
Round wherever you like, of course. Here are the level 1-3 prices I used:
Light Horse, 110, 410, 820Heavy Horse, 300, 600, 1200
Riding Dog, 150, 450, 900
Pony, 45, 345, 690
Guard Dog, 25, 325, 350
That being said, let me make sure I understand what you mean by # of advancements. Do you mean essentially each CR increase?
I was thinking Hit Dice. CR increases could work, and might be easier or harder to calculate. I'd have to look a few things up to decide if I like one better than the other.