This post regarding the Leadership feat is divided into 2 parts. Feel free to respond to either or both parts with your opinion.
Part1: I think the leadership feat is probably the most powerful feat in the game. If someone can think of a more powerful feat than leadership, I'd love to hear about it.
Part2: Any character with a modest or good charisma score will be able to pick up a follower only 2 levels lower than they are at level 7 with the leadership feat. This got me to thinking. Often when I'm theory crafting on how to build an optimised character (I tend to focus on levels 6 through to 12), I often come up short on feats and abilities to get just that perfect combination to make the character really potent. This often forces me to pick human just to get the extra feat and skills.
However, what if I didn't have to do this. Just pick the leadership feat and let your follower who's fully equipped and only 2 levels lower than you pick up the slack with a combination of feats, spells, abilities etc that synergizes perfectly with your own build.
What I want to know is, what character classes/builds can you think of that would benefit greatly from having the follower synergize with and augment your theme/role from an optimisation point of view? And ofcourse, what build would the follower have to be to achieve this?
I'm fairly certain merely having Leadership is "optimized" ;p
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Make your cohort a summoner. The cohort takes the leadership feat. So does the eidolon (yes, they're eligible for it). Their cohorts are all summoners, too. Continue until you don't have any cohorts left of high enough level to take the feat.
:P
I'm fairly certain merely having Leadership is "optimized" ;p
That heavily depends on the context. In my opinion it isn't true. As a GM, at least, I make sure to account for effective party level when designing encounters - when Leadership comes into play the CR of encounters typically goes up by 1. And I don't just look at the abstract numbers here (4th level does not equal 4th level), I'm looking at true effective power-level. If the party consists of super-optimized characters, they automagically face tougher challenges.
If a high-level PC tried to have a Leadership chain as suggested by Umbral Reaver, you can bet your last sock that they'll have encounters that *require* that many individuals to be around - and character deaths (PC and cohorts) are practically guaranteed with higher numbers of enemies.
In that sense having Leadership doesn't help you deal with encounters more effectively - but it can open up important options (say the party doesn't have a healer, now they do, etc).
Oh, I forgot to mention. A cohort rarely has reason to demand less than their full share of the loot. (But they are still restricted to NPC gear wealth levels.)
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Make your cohort a summoner. The cohort takes the leadership feat. So does the eidolon (yes, they're eligible for it). Their cohorts are all summoners, too. Continue until you don't have any cohorts left of high enough level to take the feat.:P
Lol. You're turning the leadership feat into a pyramid scheme.
Yes, leadership is a very good feat, but exactly how good depends on the DM. The rules are silent on how much you can choose for your cohort.
So, if the DM thinks the feat doesn't allow you to design your cohort - it doesn't allow you to design your cohort. It's not house ruling or anything, that's just the way the feat works. It says nothing of creating a cohort, just recruiting it. It doesn't prohibit the DM from allowing the PC to design the cohort either. It's silent on the matter.
Personally, I allow the player to choose the basic theme of the cohort; his reflects him knowing what he wants to recruit. However, the number of NPC's of a certain race and class aren't infinite, so while he may ask for "a cleric of Sarenrae", that means I'll present him with an NPC or three that fits that has "answered his ad" so to speak. He doesn't get to design them, I do.
That said, of course I don't design them as bad characters, but I don't optimize overly either. I describe their personalities and in what ways they are skilled, and he gets to recruit one of them. It's like a job interview.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Make your cohort a summoner. The cohort takes the leadership feat. So does the eidolon (yes, they're eligible for it). Their cohorts are all summoners, too. Continue until you don't have any cohorts left of high enough level to take the feat.
:P
It's even worse if you take the Thrallherd prestige class for psions, then take Psions as you thralls, then they take Thrallherd...
I realized that when you need a three ring binder for your character, you're doing it wrong.
Make your cohort a summoner. The cohort takes the leadership feat. So does the eidolon (yes, they're eligible for it). Their cohorts are all summoners, too. Continue until you don't have any cohorts left of high enough level to take the feat.
:P
It's even worse if you take the Thrallherd prestige class for psions, then take Psions as you thralls, then they take Thrallherd...
I realized that when you need a three ring binder for your character, you're doing it wrong.
What are you taking about? That's how you "win" the game right?
...right?
;)
This post regarding the Leadership feat is divided into 2 parts. Feel free to respond to either or both parts with your opinion.
Part1: I think the leadership feat is probably the most powerful feat in the game.
This feat can also become a high liability. Still a good feat, but not one that has no consequence on your character and the rest of your party.
Part2: Any character with a modest or good charisma score will be able to pick up a follower only 2 levels lower than they are at level 7 with the leadership feat.
That's assuming that you are being allowed to choose the said cohort yourself, and that the levels you're talking about are character class levels rather than NPC class levels.
I mean, of course you are right: anyone with a half decent CHA will get a cohort 2 levels below its own. But a 4th level warrior with standard NPC stat array (13,12,11,10,9,8) cohort isn't going to have the same impact as a 4th level cleric with a 18 WIS, for example.
Otherwise just for the sake of theory crafting, I'd probably choose a druid (emphasis on spells rather than wild shape). Its animal companion would serve as the cohort's own self-protector while the druid would fling spells to buff my party or annoy our enemies.
Alternatively, a wizard or a bard to continually buff my character. I'd probably go with bard just because every hero needs a minstrel to sing its deeds everywhere it goes! Regardless, the cohort would be a caster...
'findel
Part1: I think the leadership feat is probably the most powerful feat in the game. If someone can think of a more powerful feat than leadership, I'd love to hear about it.
It depends how you look at it.
I've been in games where NPCs traveled with the party and helped us FOR FREE!! We didn't even have to use a feat!! OMGWTF OVERPOWERED!!!
;-)
Of course, if your GM is stingy with NPC allies, then I agree that Leadership is the most powerful feat I can think of.
I'm planning to take the leadership feat at 9th level for my character. Basically I want the followers. My character is starting up a bandit gang and I need followers for that. The Cohort would probably be the gang leader. This is mostly for character concept purposes and really shouldn't have much impact on the game though it's resource I can draw upon every so often for cash funds, help, information and such. That's basically left up to the DM on how that will play out.
Notice that Leadership score suffers -2 penalty for having familiar, animal companion and special mount. Eidolon should give the same penalty for those wanting to make Summoner with Leadership.
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Make your cohort a summoner. The cohort takes the leadership feat. So does the eidolon (yes, they're eligible for it). Their cohorts are all summoners, too. Continue until you don't have any cohorts left of high enough level to take the feat.
:P
It's even worse if you take the Thrallherd prestige class for psions, then take Psions as you thralls, then they take Thrallherd...
I realized that when you need a three ring binder for your character, you're doing it wrong.
What are you taking about? That's how you "win" the game right?
...right?
;)
Only if your GM doesn't slap you in the head and say, "No".
Notice that Leadership score suffers -2 penalty for having familiar, animal companion and special mount. Eidolon should give the same penalty for those wanting to make Summoner with Leadership.
Agreed, and the Eidolon should suffer a -2 penalty on ITS leadership score for having a familiar, especially if the summoner is small, cute and furry like a familiar.
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I plan on taking Leadership for my Kingmaker Bard. My cohort will be a crafting Wizard. Stay at home researching and working on projects. He may accompany us on occasion, but his priority is keeping the ruling class equipped with top of the line magical gear. Which will allow him to keep an eye on the kingdom while we are away and able to tell me if anything comes up that we need to respond to right away.
If you think about it, a Wizard with a Cleric cohort, or a Cleric with a Wizard cohort makes the Mystic Theurge prestige class look anemic.
Casting 2 spells a round, twice the number of feats/hp and avoid the 3 level hit on both caster levels? And the Cleric can take the Heavy Armor feat and Bodyguard to protect the Wizard.
If you think about it, a Wizard with a Cleric cohort, or a Cleric with a Wizard cohort makes the Mystic Theurge prestige class look anemic.
Casting 2 spells a round, twice the number of feats/hp and avoid the 3 level hit on both caster levels? And the Cleric can take the Heavy Armor feat and Bodyguard to protect the Wizard.
Absolutely, and other combos are just as good. But the best combos take advantage of the fact that the cohort can cast a spell regardless of what the main character is doing. Talk about economy of action!
IMO, Leadership should not be allowed as a "multiclass for the price of a feat with no other restriction" feat.
'findel
Agreed, and the Eidolon should suffer a -2 penalty on ITS leadership score for having a familiar, especially if the summoner is small, cute and furry like a familiar.
That would be discrimination against Halfling Summoners! Well, who in the heck woul want to make one anyway. Everyone nows that real power are GNOME SUMMONERS!
IMO, Leadership should not be allowed as a "multiclass for the price of a feat with no other restriction" feat.
There is - while player may search for a specific cohort it is GM who designs and controls them. Unless he allows the player to control cohort in game but it is GM's choice and decision.
Everyone nows that real power are GNOME SUMMONERS!
Why in sanity's name would anyone want to summon a gnome?
Or is this non-sanity? Are you summoning psedonatural gnomes?!?!?
gibber gibber...
My trouble with Leadership as a feat is that from the roleplaying end, it always seems to have this Manson family vibe where the followers don't seem so much like individuals as psychotic cultists. From a GMs perspective, it also makes things problematic for intrigues because the player always has OOC knowledge about who he can trust. Optimizing the builds for the followers just adds to this, since you tend to get these bizarre one-trick ponies. This is another reason why I tend to disallow the feat.
Leadership seems to be core feat most often disallowed by game masters, as it complicates things a bit. Some campaigns just aren't appropriate for hordes of minor NPCs running around the party.
Why in sanity's name would anyone want to summon a gnome?
Ten cubic meters of gnome is truly unstoppable force... Well, unless someone summons eleven cubic meters of sylph, that is.
Or is this non-sanity? Are you summoning psedonatural gnomes?!?!?gibber gibber...
Behold the power of new advanced template: "Garden"
Hmmm... This would require some tweaking with spelling, so it would sound more Lovercraftian. Ghar'dhen... Gharhdhen... Ghahrhdhehnh? But were to put those x and q to make it sound truly unspeakable?
Leadership seems to be core feat most often disallowed by game masters, as it complicates things a bit. Some campaigns just aren't appropriate for hordes of minor NPCs running around the party.
Oh, I have no problem with a horde of minor NPCs so long as I'm the one controlling them as GM. When the PCs manage their actions, that's when it starts looking like a cult.
Leadership seems to be core feat most often disallowed by game masters, as it complicates things a bit. Some campaigns just aren't appropriate for hordes of minor NPCs running around the party.
I remember when I first took leadership. I thought, "A bunch of rangers will be great on an outdoor adventure! They can do all the cooking, packing & unpacking, and Survival checks."
See the dragon? The dragon goes "Huff!" Huff dragon, huff.
See the briquettes? They were rangers. Smolder rangers, smolder.
Oh, I have no problem with a horde of minor NPCs so long as I'm the one controlling them as GM. When the PCs manage their actions, that's when it starts looking like a cult.
Well... the rule about GM NPCs talking to each other being boring holds true with PC NPCs, with the added disadvantage that they're also a distraction from the GM's plot.
Don't cohorts earn XP and level up like PCs? If so, they are likely sucking up the entire party's XP (for example, in what was a 4-man party, the XP is now being divided 5 ways).
I think that balances it out, maybe even making it a little weak.
No, they don't. Read the feat carefully.
-- david
Papa.DRB
Don't cohorts earn XP and level up like PCs? If so, they are likely sucking up the entire party's XP (for example, in what was a 4-man party, the XP is now being divided 5 ways).
I think that balances it out, maybe even making it a little weak.
Ah, so they do level up via XP, but it doesn't effect the party's total pool. Nice.
Broken.
I've played a Living Greyhawk campaign that gave me a cohort, it was pretty fun. It's not hard to play 2 characters at the table, and the druid gets an animal companion, so why not other players with the Leadership feat?
My current game has a GM that will let me take the Leadership feat, but I have to come up with the cohort. No problem. For my 7th level Sorcerer I chose a 5th level Wizard? Why? Well, my Sorcerer is the "battlefield control" type with Conjuring and the Celestial bloodline for backup healing.
Why the Wizard? Because I'm also the party crafter, and the APG has this feat called "Cooperative Crafting" along with the spell "Crafter's Fortune". This will let me concentrate on Summon Monster and ray spells while the Wizard changes his spells from day to day as needed. My cohort will also be the party's scroll-making machine. I intend to give him my share of the treasure to keep him crafting as much as possible. I roleplayed the cohort as a Wizard looking for a Conjuring mentor.
I'm not sure how to roleplay the followers, but as long as they have a CHA of 12 or better they'll be OK. Wait...you mean they won't be "camp followers"? Whattdya mean, "followers are fodder"? My PC was looking forward to a well-cooked meal and a massage back at camp! ;-)
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I usually handle Leadership with some pregenerated single core class NPC Sheets I write for the adventure. My staple set includes a knife thrower rogue, a decent built fighter, and a non specialized caster (usually ane arcane blooded Sorcerer or Bard variant).
If my players insist on building their cohort, I afford them an NPC Class with the Heroic Stats Package.
Other things I do to keep it from becoming Team-Cleric, Caster-Force or other optimized variants include; Tracking Cohort Pay, Morale, Alignment, and goals. Also like familiars, I give the players the ability to control their cohort. I don't gaurantee it though. If a cohort becomes heroic enough, or does really well, in essence he/she has taken what can be learned from his/her mentor (the pc) and they decide to strike out on their own. Though they usually remain as allies in bigger campaigns. On the flipside, treating the cohort poorly, and behaving like a poor leader will cause a mutiny against the PC lead by the Cohort. I think that actually was one of the must interesting ways I ustilized the Leadership feat as a learning tool in a game.
My hardline rule with leadership is that only one character per game can have it. Between the summons, companions, mounts, and the like...cohorts and follows add too much to the logistics of my combats. Combat is something in which I like to keep focused on the party. My prefered combat is on the small team skirmish vs a similar sized force. cohorts, and all the extra garnish I feel is best suited for a climatic battle or event in the story arc itself.
Part II:
Alchemists are realy good as leadership sidekicks. If your DM lets you design the cohort it can be a good cohort for nearly any PC type.
Half-Orc for extra bomb damage and Infusion Discovery for party buffs and healing as basics.
A feat that would give a few free cure potions a day would be taken by many character, but this self refilling potion bag can do some damage on its own. Attacks are likly to hit even at -2 level/bab when the those attacks are touch attacks ;-)
But that's not all depending on level and PC class the alchemist can do a lot more:
* Melee type + alchemists
Frost bomb can help a lot at lower levels. Against a emeny melee typ it's a huge bonus if you opponent can't make a full attack vs you because you sidekick hits with a bomb and you oponent is staggered. Force bomb and dispelling bombs become handy later. Polearm figther and frost/force bomb can become real fun.
* Ranged/archer type
It feels much safer to attack with a bow, when you know your sidekick has a readied action to throw a force bomb on any enemy that wants to get close to you ...
* Caster type + alchemists
Madness bomb and Fast bombs can give a huge bonus to any will save spell you cast. Two Madness bomb give you an equivalent of a 1-3 DC bonus, stacking with any bonus to DC you might already have ;-) and if you can wait an other round you could possebly get an other stacking bonus of 0-2.
But the best thing about this cohort is ... it can be a good party cohort. A cohort that can give a bonus to any party member via Infusion and Bombs. Asign a great potion of daily extract to you party mates, in the morning every party member can order what kind of extracts he wants for the coming day. That will make you cohort a more accepted member of your party than any dim/facless personal buff bot you could have for yourself. (It does feel less dumb if you take the most powerfull feat ever and share a bit of it's power with your party)
Breiti
One interesting one I've seen at higher levels for melee characters is a sorcerer cohort with Teleport. Although the cohort can and will do other things, in combat a big part of his function will be teleporting the character to wherever he needs to be to full attack without having to move. Unlike pounce it doesn't need conditions that make a charge possible and with readied actions it could even occur in the middle of a full attack action.
(Let's not open the can of worms that is: melee characters should/shouldn't need a trick like this to always full attack -- that has its own thread already.)
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Notice that Leadership score suffers -2 penalty for having familiar, animal companion and special mount. Eidolon should give the same penalty for those wanting to make Summoner with Leadership.
Likewise, the '-2 for getting Cohorts killed' should apply towards Summoners. The attitude of every person who I have seen play/even talk about playing a Summoner 'If it dies, big deal, I'll just Summon him again tomorrow'... would not exactly inspire confidence in someone looking for a secure and relatively safe job working for said Summoner.
-Uriel
Notice that Leadership score suffers -2 penalty for having familiar, animal companion and special mount. Eidolon should give the same penalty for those wanting to make Summoner with Leadership.Likewise, the '-2 for getting Cohorts killed' should apply towards Summoners. The attitude of every person who I have seen play/even talk about playing a Summoner 'If it dies, big deal, I'll just Summon him again tomorrow'... would not exactly inspire confidence in someone looking for a secure and relatively safe job working for said Summoner.
-Uriel
Considering that summoned monsters don't actually die, I'm inclined to agree with them.
Considering that summoned monsters don't actually die, I'm inclined to agree with them.
Well, Eidolons don't seem to mind being ravaged on a daily basis but it still does not builds up morale of mortal follower. Especially if they lack Knowledge [planes] and Spellcraft to know nuances of summoning magic.
Considering that summoned monsters don't actually die, I'm inclined to agree with them.Well, Eidolons don't seem to mind being ravaged on a daily basis but it still does not builds up morale of mortal follower. Especially if they lack Knowledge [planes] and Spellcraft to know nuances of summoning magic.
Well they are following you, so it seems like they'd probably believe you if you told them you know how your magic works because you use it everyday, and then noting that they're far less "expendable" than summoning fodder, and that's why you're summoning instead of pulling a Zap Branigan.