Advice wanted on ranger / arcane archer build

[Venkman]

I'm playing in a campaign where we're starting a new AP with 1st-level characters, hopefully playing them up through at least 10-12th level. I want to start as a ranger and ultimately take a few levels of arcane archer. My character is an elf with the following stats (all adjustments already included): Str 14, Dex 17, Wis 14, Int 14, Con 12, Cha 7. I took the Lightbringer special ability from APG, (replaces sleep immunity, save bonus vs. enchantments, and Spellcraft bonus) partly for flavor, partly because it seemed like it might be useful.

The party is 4 characters and is tentatively set to consist of me, a fighter, an oracle, and a sorcerer. My guess is that my character may get into melee a bit more at level 1-2, but he will fairly soon become a primarily ranged attacker.

My plan is to go 6 straight levels of ranger, take 1 level of wizard, then 4 levels of AA. Beyond that, I'm open to suggestions. I want to optimize my archery abilities as much as possible. Arcane spellcasting abilities I pick up will be secondary, and probably used mostly for buffing rather than fireballs.

Keep in mind that I will be playing this character out through the low levels, and my DM is not averse to killing PC's, so I need to make choices that will help right away. (e.g. I want a first-level feat that will help me noticeably at 1st level, as opposed to setting me up for something good at 4th level.)

The main thing I want advice on is feat choices. I need PBS, Precise Shot, and WF(bow) as pre-reqs for AA, so I absolutely need to get all those no later than 7th level. I'm pretty sure two of my first 3 feats will be PBS and Precise Shot (I predict I will do a lot of firing into melee.) For my 3rd feat, I'm not sure whether to go with Deadly Aim or Rapid Shot. I'm leaning toward Deadly Aim, because I can take it at first level, where I would otherwise have no ranged damage bonus due to no mighty composite bow. But I could pick up Rapid Shot as early as 2nd level...so the question becomes which is better: one shot at -1 att/+2 dam, or 2 shots at -2 att/+0 dam? For my 5th-level feat, I had penciled in WF(longbow), but I could bump that back to 7th level and use my 5th-level feat for Deadly Aim or Rapid Shot (whichever one I didn't take at the earlier levels.) As far as my 6th-level bonus feat goes, I like Manyshot for the extra attack; but it might be better to take Imp. Precise Shot because it would be so much earlier than I could otherwise get it.

So, if anyone has any thoughts, I'd be happy to hear them. My character is only conceptual at this point, so I can still change things around, if people are convincing enough. :)

[EWHM]

Magical knack would be useful if your GM is allowing traits, giving you +2 caster level on your wizard level---mostly for durations and such. You might find low level summoned monsters to be useful speedbumps.
For feats, I'd take precise shot as my level 2 ranger bonus feat and improved precise shot for my level 6 ranger bonus feat, unless you're finding that you rarely have to shoot into cover or concealment. Normally you need +11 BAB to get this, so the ranger bonus ability to ignore the prereq really is working for you here.
For level 1, I'd probably go with point blank shot---you need it anyway and its really useful at these levels. Level 3 I'd pick up rapid shot---your gear at this point is probably good enough so you can actually hit pretty reliably using it. Level 5 I'd grab weapon focus (bow). Level 7 you're picking up your wizard level and you can grab deadly aim or manyshot. Level 8 and 9 are AA levels and you can get deadly aim or manyshot. That's really the point where you'll be fully matured.

There's one other thing I might consider in your place. You've got a pretty decent wisdom stat. You might consider working in a level of cleric into your build. Liberation and Travel domains are really nice--particularly the +10 movement you'd get from travel which would stack with longstrider. You could have up to 4 levels in cleric without significantly hurting your BAB.

[Doc Cosmic]

I know you want to use Ranger, and I think it is a great class. But with the additional benefits that the APG gives them, I find it very difficult to advise you (in a 12 level max campaign) to even consider taking Arcane Archer. In addition, your arcane caster level is going to be 4 (second level spells) The awesome buffs begin at third level spells (Haste, Good Hope, Flly, etc etc), so you'll be selecting buffs that are suboptimal compared to what you can snag from the sticking with Ranger. So, incoming advice..

1) Ranger only. 12 levels of Ranger is fantastic. You get gravity bow and arrows of eruption, two of the best bow spells out there. You will also have access to lead blades, a very handy spell indeed in case you ever get into melee. In essence your ranger spells will give you better personal buffs than the level 2 arcane spells you will be accessing. In addition, your pet and favored abilities increase in strength and you don't lose any BAB. It is really hard to see the downside of sticking with Ranger.
An alternative to ranger only, is to take a few levels of Horizon Walker. If you wanted to be able to fly, that is only a 3 level dip. The problem with this, is that the natural drop points for ranger are 6, 10 and 12. So personally, I would stick with a pure ranger and go from there. See my personal recommended build below

2) Fighter 6/Wizard 2/Arcane Archer 4 - this is a more classic, and much better optimized archer build for the classes. Yes, you don't get to ignore some pre-requisites, but in all honesty, you don't need to since you will be rocking a crap-ton of feats anyway. With the fighter weapon training, you will make up some of the BAB you lose, add Gloves of Dueling for +2 to attack and you will have a "base" attack bonus 1 higher than the ranger archer, for everything except the ranger's favored enemies. This also frees up more levels, so that you can get 2 levels of wizard to add to the 3 caster levels of arcane archer, which opens up those 3rd level spells we spoke of earlier, so at least you access the good buffs.

Not that an arcane ranger does not work, I am playing on right now actually and its great, but the campaign is going to the epic levels, so the character has time to mature and build into strengths. If you are going to end the campaign at level 12, you need classes that mature early...not in the mid-teens.

Recommended Builds
1) Ranger Only
[1] Point Blank Shot
[2] Rapid Shot
[3] Precise Shot
[5] Deadly Aim
[6] Manyshot
[7] Boon Campanion (Take a Rhino)
[9] Mounted Combat
[10] Improved Precise Shot
[11] Mounted Archery (Stand on your Rhino for high ground and shoot)

Since you won't be flying, standing a top a nice large Rhino should be sufficient enough. With 1 rank / level in Ride, you will have a seriously good ride score becuase you focus on your dex score (perk of being the archer) and should be able to ride atop of your Rhino standing and shooting (DC15 to stay on if you are hit). The Rhino is a great choice since its best attack is charging around, so have your Rhino charge something that you are filling with arrows.

2) Fighter/Wizard/AA
[1] Point Blank Shot
[F] Precise Shot
[2] Weapon Focus (Bow)
[3] Deadly Aim
[4] Weapon Specialization (Bow)
[5] Rapid Shot
[6] Manyshot
[7] Point Blank Master
[9] Improved Initiative
[11] Improved Precise Shot

Point Blank Master is a handy feat to have for those times when things get up-close and personal, allowing you to use your bow of awesome, even with they are that close. Since you will have the good lvl 3 buff spells, you can cast fly, so you don't really need the Rhino..and of course, you will have the great Gravity Bow spell.

Hopefully, I have given you a base idea of what to shoot for [pun intended], modify it, make it fit your character concept, and have a great time playing your archer!

[james maissen]

Venkman wrote:

I'm playing in a campaign where we're starting a new AP with 1st-level characters, hopefully playing them up through at least 10-12th level. I want to start as a ranger and ultimately take a few levels of arcane archer.

Alright you will want to have the following 7 feats by 9th level:

PBS, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus, Improved Precise Shot, Deadly Aim, and Many Shot. This leaves you with one last feat at 11th level (either Improved Critical, Point Blank Master or possibly some other feat).

Now I'm assuming that you certainly don't want to wait until 11th level for improved precise shot as it is one of the strengths of ranger to take it 5 levels earlier at 6th.

Your 2nd level feat is locked as Precise Shot, as not having it would really hurt. But as it's a ranger combat style bonus feat you don't need the prereq for it. So you could go with deadly aim at 1st level then pick up weapon focus & PBS at 3rd & 5th (respectively) if that appeals.

But for the most part your choices are between weapon focus (either 5th or 7th), rapid shot, deadly aim and many shot (min 7th) having picked up PBS early on.

You will wish to crunch the numbers a bit and compare it to the ACs of enemies that you are dealing with as this will determine things. If the ACs are low then deadly aim is strong, while if they are high then weapon focus is better. Rapid shot and many shot compare as follows: for mooks (1 hit = 1 kill) then of course rapid shot is better, against average opponents manyshot is strictly better over time (though its spiky in the damage) as there is no -2 on all attacks, if you have a good amount of damage that only applies once to many shot then rapid shot starts to look a bit better, while against something that you can almost never hit then rapid shot finally shines through albeit in a fringe case.

Last question- you're going through an AP, how often will your ranger favored enemy come up for you? If the AP is strongly themed and you can expect it to occur with a great frequency this is going to skew things as your bonus to hit & dam will be higher than otherwise.

-James

[Venkman]

Yeah, the more I look at arcane archer, the more it feels like the entire class could almost be replaced by a good magic bow, so I'm inclined now to go with a straight ranger. BUT, I was thinking it might still be useful to throw in one level of wizard at some point. I'd give up a point of BAB, but I'd get +2 to will saves, a few useful spells (expeditious retreat), and the ability to use arcane wands. The Magical Knack trait could give me a +3 caster level (although now I'm kinda wanting to take MK and apply it to my ranger class, so my caster level for that is only -1 from my class level.)

[Glutton]

If you are looking at a one level dip, bard is so much better than wizard for an arcane archer its staggering. Too bad you dumped your Cha :(

[james maissen]

Glutton wrote:

If you are looking at a one level dip, bard is so much better than wizard for an arcane archer its staggering. Too bad you dumped your Cha :(

I don't believe that either is good for a dip, but if you are going to do so then the wizard school powers are much stronger than bardic music at level 1 bard.

-James

[Sylvanite]

A straight Fighter focused on Bows with the APG options for that is a decent choice.

A straight Ranger is also a really good choice.

An Arcane Archer focused on getting really good Wizard casting is also a good choice.

I would choose from those ideas, though. Going with only a few caster levels is really not that great.

The real selling point of Arcane Archer is Imbue Arrow....everything else the class does pretty much can be replaced with a nice magic bow.

My favorite AA build is:
Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 3/Arcane Archer 3/Eldritch Knight +7/Arcane Archer +1

Shines most toward later levels, though is totally functional throughout. You end up with 17 caster levels (Magical Knack and an Ioun Stone easily get you to CL 20 for the stuff it matter for) and also have a BAB of 17 (though you lose those 3 early, which is why it shines most later on). There are also a lot of bonus feats in this build, which helps be a really good Archer.

[ProfessorCirno]

Is bard/AA/bard still popular? I know that was a favorite around here pre-APG.

[Bertious]

Sylvanite wrote:

A straight Fighter focused on Bows with the APG options for that is a decent choice.

A straight Ranger is also a really good choice.

An Arcane Archer focused on getting really good Wizard casting is also a good choice.

I would choose from those ideas, though. Going with only a few caster levels is really not that great.

The real selling point of Arcane Archer is Imbue Arrow....everything else the class does pretty much can be replaced with a nice magic bow.

My favorite AA build is:
Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 3/Arcane Archer 3/Eldritch Knight +7/Arcane Archer +1

Shines most toward later levels, though is totally functional throughout. You end up with 17 caster levels (Magical Knack and an Ioun Stone easily get you to CL 20 for the stuff it matter for) and also have a BAB of 17 (though you lose those 3 early, which is why it shines most later on). There are also a lot of bonus feats in this build, which helps be a really good Archer.

I went for a similar build although i started with ranger (guide from the APG) /Transmuter

[Sylvanite]

Ranger for the first level is a good alternative to Fighter. You lose a feat, but better skills, more skill points, and access to scrolls and wands of some really cool spells wizards don't get.

Worth noting that a really good AA build is fairly feat starved though.

Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus, Improved Precise Shot, Deadly Aim, Manyshot, Arcane Strike, Weapon Specialization....and I'm sure I'm forgetting some.