White Haired Witch Hair

[williamoak]

I know there are a lot of threads asking "does the WHW get Int to hit". The general consensus is no, but I'd like to see a response form the developers (since, as far as I can tell, there hasn't been any). I would like to get a better idea of the RAI, since the RAW seems unusable.

Here is why I doubt the general consensus.

-Seeing as prehensile hair get int to hit, and white hair seems to be based on the former ability, i don't understand why those two abilities would be in opposition.

-I dont know any ability that changes the DAMAGE roll to another ability and not the TO HIT one (like dervish dance, that allows you to treat scimitars as finesse weapons) (although changing TO HIT and not DAMAGE is quite common) (agile weapon enchantment is the only counter example, but its an enchantment and not a feat/ability/power, and specifies it can only be used on finesse weapons, suggesting it's secondary to weapon finesse)

-Beyond the first few levels, there is literally no way for her to hit anything. Lowest BaB, and cant use any useful (witch) stats to hit. Usually, even the weirdest archetype's abilities are useful in certain specific situations. But she cant use ANY. I dont see her hair striking a foe short of a crit most times, so she cant even do a grapple (since it requires hitting a foe) or any other of the maneuvers. At level 10, her best hit (assuming an average witch strength of 10) can only hit less than 25% of the time (The lowest CR 10 AC I was able to find was 19, and the vast majority are above 22).

I've heard from friends/ acquaintances that 3ed/3.5ed was filled with a lot of cool/interesting looking abilities designed specifically to "trick noobs" into taking useless abilities. Generally, pathfinder doesn't seem to be like this; most archetypes are functional (if in a limited set of circumstances, like the "sea" themed archetypes). This is the only archetype that literally gains a power it can not use beyond the first few levels.

So, if you're as curious about getting an FAQ on this as I am, please mark the FAQ. And if anybody knows a bit about the design philosophy that paizo is using, I'd be curious to know more.

I love pathfinder for it's diversity, but I hate it when I see unusable bagage (especially when they could simply rule out the class). It's an incredibly flavorful archetype, that cant use its main ability without heavy multiclassing, which in 99% of other cases the game discourages. (Sorry for the rant)

[karlbadmannersV2]

Baggage

[karlbadmannersV2]

Whoa sorry taking off my d**k glasses, I agree, abilities like this that seem at odds are frustrating, hence why I haven't tried to find any local PFS games, I'm so used to houseruling the crap out of my DnD

[williamoak]

karlbadmannersV2 wrote:

Whoa sorry taking off my d**k glasses, I agree, abilities like this that seem at odds are frustrating, hence why I haven't tried to find any local PFS games, I'm so used to houseruling the crap out of my DnD

HAHAHA! Yeah, I've played one game of PFS (it was fun) but the limits are sometimes unpleasant (though reasonable most of the time. Synthesist summoner is a true monster). (I'm also kinda happy i didnt see your original post)

I would tend to houserules int to hit rather than for damage; since the extra powers only require you to hit, that could be quite viable (int to damage could be OBSCENE for a witch though). You'd do less damage, but all the extra abilities would allow you to control the battlefield. I get the feeling this was the RAI, but there's no way to know.

In any case Carl, I havent been playing for long (maybe 2 months) and I've become quite fond of building theoretical characters, which is why I tend to stick to the rules (since building into theoretical houserules isnt exactly useful). In any case, I hope you'll FAQ the post, I'd really like to get a response from the developers. Sorry if it appeared I was min-maxing/powergaming. When I post theoretical builds here, the average response is "vaguely interesting, but do XYZ to be optimal" (most of which destroy the character concept). While in the outside, around people who dont spend time on the forums, the response is more along the lines of "WHAT IS THIS MADNESS! BURN THE WITCH! I DONT SEE HOW' BUT HE MUST BE MIN-MAXING IF HE HAS SUCH AN UNUSUAL BUILD!".

(Man, I'm in a ranty mood today)

[darth_gator]

williamoak wrote:

When I post theoretical builds here, the average response is "vaguely interesting, but do XYZ to be optimal" (most of which destroy the character concept).

Stormwind Fallacy

EDIT: Regardless, I clicked FAQ for you.

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

WHW has such great flavor, but mechanics make it basically useless to play

[williamoak]

darth_gator wrote:

williamoak wrote:

When I post theoretical builds here, the average response is "vaguely interesting, but do XYZ to be optimal" (most of which destroy the character concept).

Stormwind Fallacy

EDIT: Regardless, I clicked FAQ for you.

I would tend to disagree with the fallacy, since I am generally trying to optimize (within a certain character concept). The profusion of guides for pathfinder characters does seem to have congealed certain people into thinking "if it isnt THE most optimal build, it cant be an optimal build". But I digress. Thanks a lot for the support.

[williamoak]

Bump

[Mojorat]

I thought he achetype looked neat and had planned to eventually play one. I hadn't noticed that glaring issue.

So to get the int to grapple thing, they actually have to hit with a normal attack correct? They cant Choose to simply grapple. Or rather they can but if they do that their int will not apply to the grapple roll unless its part of the grab ability?

When i first read this, i thought well they can just use true strike.. but looking it appears witches don't get true strike as a spell. Also reading it i am not sure the grab would trigger off of a touch spell from the hair.

[williamoak]

Mojorat wrote:

I thought he achetype looked neat and had planned to eventually play one. I hadn't noticed that glaring issue.

So to get the int to grapple thing, they actually have to hit with a normal attack correct? They cant Choose to simply grapple. Or rather they can but if they do that their int will not apply to the grapple roll unless its part of the grab ability?

When i first read this, i thought well they can just use true strike.. but looking it appears witches don't get true strike as a spell. Also reading it i am not sure the grab would trigger off of a touch spell from the hair.

Yeah, I felt that way too. I've heard a lot of cases where people used as a dip with hexcrafter. Would probably work well, but I dont like dip only characters.

[captain yesterday]

williamoak wrote:

Mojorat wrote:

I thought he achetype looked neat and had planned to eventually play one. I hadn't noticed that glaring issue.

So to get the int to grapple thing, they actually have to hit with a normal attack correct? They cant Choose to simply grapple. Or rather they can but if they do that their int will not apply to the grapple roll unless its part of the grab ability?

When i first read this, i thought well they can just use true strike.. but looking it appears witches don't get true strike as a spell. Also reading it i am not sure the grab would trigger off of a touch spell from the hair.

Yeah, I felt that way too. I've heard a lot of cases where people used as a dip with hexcrafter. Would probably work well, but I dont like dip only characters.

have you tried dipping them in chocolate:)

[williamoak]

@ captain yesterday

I do, but they keep trying to grapple me. Even after coating them with vanila too!

[Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal]

Explain to me again how this is a problem?

If necessary reference the 'Succubus in a Grapple' thread...

[williamoak]

Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:

Explain to me again how this is a problem?

If necessary reference the 'Succubus in a Grapple' thread...

Yeah, but it cant grapple me. It has such low to hit, it could never hit me, and thus never grapple me.

[williamoak]

bump

[williamoak]

I'm bumbing this in the hope of gaining some extra attention for the question.

[Pupsocket]

williamoak wrote:

I'm bumbing this in the hope of gaining some extra attention for the question.

Look, it's not even a question. The archetype is just completely f!@~ed, and there's no reasonable reading of the text that makes it not f%+*ed. It's going to need errata to fix, not a FAQ.

[TGMaxMaxer]

They should have just made all those hair abilities hexes specific to the WhW with level reqs to keep extra hex happy people from getting them all in a 4 level dip, and left the archetype with hexes from the get-go.

The fact that an archtype based around attacking with hair is worse at it than a normal witch who takes a single hex, should have told the author/editor something.

I don't know if it was poorly written, or butchered in editing, but it's just bad.

[Tom S 820]

The WHW get INT to hit only with het hair. Just like any other witch use INT for their Hexs. The WHW has Hair Attack instead of HEXs.
Also is a grappeling CMB roll that INT istead of STR fine but, the Witch BaB only gose up by +1/2 per level vs +3/4 for monk or +1 for Fighter so saying it subpar is joke. It not even useable. The other class that you would build a grappeler around are clearly better.

Second she still has to spend same Stat & feats to get better at it just like fighter or monk.

For WHW to truely do what should do it needs:

Improved Unarmed Strike*
Improved Grapple*
Greater Grapple*

Combat Expertise*
Improved Trip*
Greater Trip*

Power Attack
Improved Drag
Greater Drag
and STAT of
STR 13, DEX 13 and INT 13

Count it that 9 feats a witch only get 10 feat.

And still the Monk with same feat will be +5 graeter or fighter who will be +10 greater.

Note that monk either get prere feats for free or can skip them.
Also Fighter gets 11 feats that it can take same chain or monk get 6 feat for free and can skip Combat Expertise and get unarmed strike for free.

[williamoak]

As per the wording, she gets NO hexes, and her hair only get INT to damage unfortunately. An errata would be nice, because a who ability line is questionably worse than a single hex (ie prehensile hair).

Then again, some could consider the fact that they normally get int to hit on prehensile hair "stacks" with the WHW archetype. It's just not clear.

[Golo]

This could be a lot of fun but I agree as is there is little use for it.

It is better just to cast Strangling Hair the 3rd level spell.

Is is sad that the 3rd level spell will always be better than the witch haired witch.

WHW should use Int and caster level in place of str and bab for the hair.

Golo

[DeathlessOne]

I clicked FAQ for you. We houserule INT to attack with the hair (basically the same as prehensile hair but more damage). I'd be nice not have to hosuerule it

[williamoak]

Whow, thread necro. Thanks.

[The Masked Ferret]

williamoak wrote:

Whow, thread necro. Thanks.

I support White Haired Witches attacking with INT (hair only).

[Mystic Lemur]

williamoak wrote:

Whow, thread necro. Thanks.

At one month? Pshaw. The real necromancers are the ones who post the wrong answer to questions asked years ago. :D

[Julix]

What's up with the prejudice against necromancy? Why would you assume just because it's late to the party it's wrong? :-P

According to here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/archetypes/paizo---witch -archetypes/white-haired-witch

Both for the damage bonus and for the combat maneuver the witch does use intelligence instead of strength. Hair is also a light weapon, which means if you have weapon finesse and a really high dex you can use that for your to hit chance.

An interesting build could be a rogue(knife master)/WHW whoe grapples with hair and then sneak attacks with throwing daggers?

[Archasimos]

I clicked FAQ as well. I concur that they should get Int to hit. They also need to FAQ whether or not you can try to grapple someone with the hair without actually striking them and whether or not you can manipulate objects (but not weapons) as dexterously as a human hand, like the Prehensile Hair (Su) Hex.

[Mojorat]

The way it is written the only time they use into is as part of the swift action grapple.

[Diekssus]

williamoak wrote:

darth_gator wrote:

williamoak wrote:

When I post theoretical builds here, the average response is "vaguely interesting, but do XYZ to be optimal" (most of which destroy the character concept).

Stormwind Fallacy

EDIT: Regardless, I clicked FAQ for you.

I would tend to disagree with the fallacy, since I am generally trying to optimize (within a certain character concept). The profusion of guides for pathfinder characters does seem to have congealed certain people into thinking "if it isnt THE most optimal build, it cant be an optimal build". But I digress. Thanks a lot for the support.

I'll hit faq for you, In exchange I'll rub in your face that you tend to disagree with a fallacy that follows your own idea's completely!

haha, your stupid :P

[Rastzar]

As someone who is wanting to make a character with this archetype, i'll mark your post as FAQ as well :)

[Kikazzi]

Perhaps I'm looking at this wrong but I see Strength as being the most useful for a White-Haired Witch followed by Int & Dex.

1. At 1st level, a white-haired witch gains the ability to use her hair as a weapon. This functions as a primary natural attack with a reach of 5 feet.
As a primary natural attack, you use BAB + Str Mod. +4 Str mod = +4 to hit at level 1

2. The hair deals 1d4 points of damage (1d3 for a Small witch) plus the witch’s Intelligence modifier.
This is the hair's base damage, not replacement damage. You would also add your Str mod to this, or 1.5x your Str mod if you only have one natural attack. So base damage with +4 Str and +2 Int = 1d4+8 on initial attack. Not bad. But at level 2 it starts to shine.

3. In addition, whenever the hair strikes a foe, the witch can attempt to grapple that foe with her hair as a free action* without provoking an attack of opportunity, using her Intelligence modifier in place of her Strength modifier when making the combat maneuver check. When a white-haired witch grapples a foe in this way, she does not gain the grappled condition. Constrict (Ex): At 2nd level, when the white-haired witch’s hair successfully grapples an opponent, it can begin constricting her victim as a swift action*, dealing damage equal to that of its attack.
You hit with your attack (now +5 to hit) and make a grapple attempt (+2 since it's Int based, not great but imp grapple might help). If you land the grapple attempt you immediately do an additional 1d4+8 damage and have immobilized them. So a double success equals 2d4+16 damage. If the creature tries to escape on its next turn and you win (+7 this attempt) you can deal an additional 1d4+8 damage. Then we factor in AOO

4. At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, a white-haired witch’s hair adds 5 feet to its reach, to a maximum of 30 feet at 20th level.
At first its not so great but at level 4 you start threatening 10 feet away. With Combat Reflexes you could get 2+ AOO. Hit = attempt a grapple. Success = additional damage (and you've immobilized them). The next time a creature provokes in the round you can drop the grapple (free action) and AOO it. Grapple (no additional damage this time, but another immobilized foe. 8th level threatening 15 feet doesn't seem so bad. BAB is poor for the witch but with potentially 4+ attacks per round does it even out?

Very controller-like. Essentially stopping movement of potentially multiple targets while inflicting one with -4 Dex & -2 to hit. And at some point (probably 4+), you shift to a different primary attack such as spells or whatnot and let your hair do the AOO. Preventing movement while retaining standard casting through AOO.

[Linda Zayas-Palmer]

Answered in FAQ

FAQ wrote:

White-Haired Witch: The white-haired witch archetype says that it uses Intelligence instead of Strength for damage rolls, but does it still use Strength for attack rolls or does it use Intelligence for attack rolls like the hair hex? Can a tengu, nagaji, or other hairless character take the archetype?

A white-haired witch still uses her Strength modifier to determine her attack bonus with her hair. Witches of races that do not normally have hair can become white-haired witches, in which case, they supernaturally grow hair.

[nennafir]

Thanks for the FAQ!

[gustavo iglesias]

This FAQ would make one of my players very happy, as he's going to play a Hexcrafter Magus with a White Haired Witch dip, and he's going to have more Strength than intelligence in the long run (it's easier to bump STR as well, because there are no Size modifiers to INT)

It's going to suck a bit for real, pure class witches, tho.

[Onyx Tanuki]

gustavo iglesias wrote:

This FAQ would make one of my players very happy, as he's going to play a Hexcrafter Magus with a White Haired Witch dip, and he's going to have more Strength than intelligence in the long run (it's easier to bump STR as well, because there are no Size modifiers to INT)

It's going to suck a bit for real, pure class witches, tho.

It will, yes. Interestingly my build took some levels of Hexcrafter too, as well as Evangelist levels planned for later on so he can continue to build on his hair's abilities while still getting a passable BAB (and the Evangelist capstone does seem conceptually fun, since I flavored it to grant him wings constructed out of his dreadlocs).

But yeah, honestly I'd have rather taken a hit to their spells than totally lost hexes. Maybe give the option to take hexes or the select rogue talents, not completely removing hexes...

[Melkiador]

A somewhat disappointing, but expected ruling.