Most skills are either weak period, or stop being useful after level 5 or so.
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Citizen is arguing from 'My Universal Campaign' perspective.
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As i've said before a couple of times here, aside from traps there is nothing that rogues are the best at. Which was my initial problem.How about the sheer breadth of their skills? A rogue starts with 8 points per level. Wizards, often touted as skill monkeys, start at 2; bards start at 6. Rogues have the greatest number of skills available to them of all classes, the bard right up there with them. Combining these two gets you the character with the greatest versatility in design from a skills-base. You can build a party face/diplomancer, a trapfinder, a combat rogue, a loremaster, whatever. A bard can operate in a similar manner due to versatile performance, but in the end, he's still using Perform to duplicate a variety of skills.
Also, why does the rogue have to be the best at anything? Barbarians have the best hp, sorcerers have the best spells per day, wizards can have the best spells known-after that, you have to go through the DPR Olympics for most hp damage dealt per round and really dig for the best AC. Where does that leave the other classes, like clerics and druids (who are generally regarded with wizards as most powerful), or paladins, fighters, and rangers?
Clerics are best at healing. Paladins do the most damage if your enemy is evil, especially if they're an outsider and all that jazz. Don't forget that paladins can also heal themselves like crazy. Fighters do the most flat damage, rangers are better than rogues at stealth many of the times and in the right scenarios floor other classes in damage. These are just my opinions though.
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...These are just my opinions though.
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*snip*Reporting for duty!
lol >_<
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Well, it was a nice way of telling you to be more constructive.
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A combat is exciting because the monsters have some sort of viable even if exceptionally unlikely path to victory (ie defeating the party or killing a member). The problem for traps is that mostly it isnt there.
Well, as I tried to show with the giants - the damage output is about the same and the trap can kill with a good roll. It's not likely, but possible.
1) Poison is now slowed out over many rounds with NO initial effects. If you have anyone with even a simple delay poison spell, you laugh when the needle with poison pokes you in the finger. An expenditure of one spell, with no chance to fail, entirely negated 1/4th of your day's combats. Before, you got hit with same said needle and "oh crap I just lost 11 Con and... what is that white light... oh crap, I only had 10 Con, bubye now".
No initial effects? You're talking about poisons with onset right? Injury and inhaled poisons mostly don't have any onset and start to act immediately. Not that they are MEANT to kill immediately. There isn't much fun with traps that work like: A: I open the door! DM: Ur dead! Save or die got nerfed overall, not just in spells.
Onset poisons simply start to act 10 minutes after the PC came into contact with the poison. Not that the DM is meant to tell the rogue that after touching the door handle he's ben poisoned. After 10 minutes he simply tells him that suddenly he doesn't feel well at all (roll save, ability damage aaand next round nothing. Party starts searching for the source...).
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2) Damage is now healed so easily that it represents no significant tax to party resources. Say we got some level 3 party going through the dungeon and they just hit a trip wire. Here comes a CR 3 fireball trap. Oh noes! Three party members failed their save. 5d6 damage, and the DM rolled 21 points of damage. Cleric says "hmmm... ok, three channel energy (rolling a 7 each time), good job DM you taxed me all of one of my extra
* Traps almost never have an equivolency to a strong encounter of the same CR in terms of damage output. Even under the conditions of failing the appropriate save (which most often is reflex) or getting hit by an attack. And because that damage output rarely represents a constant source of potential damage output surviving it at all effectively reduces it to a mere resource tax. Unless, of course, it is used in conjunction with an immediate combat (which of course means a direct addition to the CR of said encounter).
In other words, if the trap goes off and knocks you to 1 hp, you "win". If the orc knocks you to 1 hp, you are at risk because he can still attack.
The only traps that can mean something are those that particularly target fortitude and occasionally those that target will. Which, in the case of fortitude, will often mean poison. Which bring us to...
* Even injury poisons give you the round in which you make a save in order to see if you are affected. Which gives you or your other members the time available to cast a simple delay poison and deal with it later. As to the fun of save or die effects, while I agree it isn't fun in the immediate sense to die to such things, it is a great tension builder and creates a better game. A game lacking those elements lacks a lot of fun. There is a reason the creators of D&D had those elements in the game, and it wasn't a lack of foresight.
As to being unaware of being poisoned, that circumstance is going to be abnormal. 99% of the time the party is going to know it has been affected. A DC 15 will save to recognize domination, a DC 10 heal check to recognize poison, etc etc. And a reasonable person knows that if they just got their finger pricked by the dart in the keyhole one of the others should go ahead and cast a delay poison.
* While many things represent a resource tax, not all encounters do. Some encounters represent a "win or die" element, not simply a (25% of your daily awesomeness, please). Traps use to do that, and thus rogues use to be 1 of 4 necessary elements to a balanced party.
Being the best at something that is not that good isn't something to brag about. Most skills are either weak period, or stop being useful after level 5 or so. And of the handful that were good, two out of three got nerfed hard. Diplomacy and Tumbling, I'm looking at you. That just leaves UMD, which is certainly nice and all, but so is being an actual spellcaster. The fusing skills together thing helped some, but not enough.
Sorry, but what game are you playing?
I once single handedly took out a 17th level BBEG at 10th level using nothing but skills. Disguised myself and performed to get him to believe I was a wizard hired to take out his enemies, got on a good footing with him through diplomacy. Bluffed and used diplomacy on him to get him to use his spell book. Plied him with expensive wine I got for a song (with appraisal) poisoned it, stole his keys, slipped out while he was unaware, found his secret chamber, disabled the trap, picked the lock, stole his best stuff, and used it against him with my use magic device skill. He was pretty close to death at that point anyway.
Good thing I didn't know that my skills had stopped being useful 5 levels earlier.
You benefited from a triple dose of DM fiat, not skills.
Being the best at something that is not that good isn't something to brag about. Most skills are either weak period, or stop being useful after level 5 or so. And of the handful that were good, two out of three got nerfed hard. Diplomacy and Tumbling, I'm looking at you. That just leaves UMD, which is certainly nice and all, but so is being an actual spellcaster. The fusing skills together thing helped some, but not enough.Sorry, but what game are you playing?
I once single handedly took out a 17th level BBEG at 10th level using nothing but skills. Disguised myself and performed to get him to believe I was a wizard hired to take out his enemies, got on a good footing with him through diplomacy. Bluffed and used diplomacy on him to get him to use his spell book. Plied him with expensive wine I got for a song (with appraisal) poisoned it, stole his keys, slipped out while he was unaware, found his secret chamber, disabled the trap, picked the lock, stole his best stuff, and used it against him with my use magic device skill. He was pretty close to death at that point anyway.
Good thing I didn't know that my skills had stopped being useful 5 levels earlier.
Uhm... which one was DM fiat? Every one was according to RAW.
Just the fact you defeated a level 17 anything with poison screams DM fiat in my opinion.Uhm... which one was DM fiat? Every one was according to RAW.I think you benefited from a triple dose of DM fiat, not skills.
Being the best at something that is not that good isn't something to brag about. Most skills are either weak period, or stop being useful after level 5 or so. And of the handful that were good, two out of three got nerfed hard. Diplomacy and Tumbling, I'm looking at you. That just leaves UMD, which is certainly nice and all, but so is being an actual spellcaster. The fusing skills together thing helped some, but not enough.Sorry, but what game are you playing?
I once single handedly took out a 17th level BBEG at 10th level using nothing but skills. Disguised myself and performed to get him to believe I was a wizard hired to take out his enemies, got on a good footing with him through diplomacy. Bluffed and used diplomacy on him to get him to use his spell book. Plied him with expensive wine I got for a song (with appraisal) poisoned it, stole his keys, slipped out while he was unaware, found his secret chamber, disabled the trap, picked the lock, stole his best stuff, and used it against him with my use magic device skill. He was pretty close to death at that point anyway.
Good thing I didn't know that my skills had stopped being useful 5 levels earlier.
Fixed those for you.
Just the fact you defeated a level 17 anything with poison screams DM fiat.
Dark Reaver Powder DC 18 * 2 doses = DC 20. Wizard 17th level with Con 14 saves at +7. 2 consecutive saves needed. Losing 1d3 Con per minute. Roll it.
*Edit -- I said "pretty close to death"
Just the fact you defeated a level 17 anything with poison screams DM fiat.Dark Reaver Powder DC 18 * 2 doses = DC 20. Wizard 17th level with Con 14 saves at +7. 2 consecutive saves needed. Losing 1d3 Con per minute. Roll it.
*Edit -- I said "pretty close to death"
A DC 20 poison at level 17. And you had to artificially lower the Wizard's saves by at least a dozen points. I rest my case.
Show me how to get a DC 40 poison, in a way a level 10 character can do, and that bypasses immunity to poison and we can talk about you poisoning level 17 characters in a manner that isn't blatant fiat.
Artificially lower? Sorry, explain how you came to that conclusion?
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A DC 20 poison at level 17. And you had to artificially lower the Wizard's saves by at least a dozen points. I rest my case.
Show me how to get a DC 40 poison, in a way a level 10 character can do, and that bypasses immunity to poison and we can talk about you poisoning level 17 characters in a manner that isn't blatant fiat.
Edit: You also had to artificially lower the Wizard's Intelligence by at least two dozen points.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/detect-poison
Oh look, a cantrip foils your mighty plan!
What's all this about artificial? Who actually uses detect poison? By RAW, a wizard has a base fortitude save of +5 at 17th level. Anything more than that is an artificial INCREASE. There's a difference between 'artificially lowered' and 'not artificially raised'.
Can you honestly say that your wizard is going to memorize detect poison instead of, say, detect magic? I don't think this is the case. In fact, I've never seen a caster use detect poison. Ever.
And what stops the wizard from being talked out of being a detect posion machine. That does not really sound like a good job. What is stopping you from convincing the wizard to commit treachery. You can do this with diplomacy.
Why is the wizard allowing some nobody to buddy up to him? I could see this happening over a long period of time, but not in a day or so. Even diplomacy has its limits. It is not a nonmagical mind control device. As an example I don't let anyone know my pin number for my ATM card, and there is not a diplomacy check high enough to get it from me. I am sure spellbooks are guarded just as closely if not closer.
Show me how to get a DC 40 poison, in a way a level 10 character can do, and that bypasses immunity to poison and we can talk about you poisoning level 17 characters in a manner that isn't blatant fiat.
I said DC 20. Not DC 40. I gave you the poison name. Look poisons on page 557. Dark Reaver Powder 800 GP.
In his defense, some GM's really don't think about keeping a Wizard on the defensive in his keep with his allies (example, lounging around in PJ robes and not having his resistance cloak and con belt on)
Mistake, fiat... you don't get to be a level 17 anything without due caution.
He was sitting in an antimagic field, surrounded by traps, with two heavily armed guards on the other side of the door.
His save is much higher, unless you either assume he's being dumb, or that DM fiat thing again.
Page number please! Wizard 17th level has a fortitude bonus of +5, and he had a constitution score of 14. That equals +7 in my world.
But please tell me how your saves get so much higher at 17th level. I like the idea of the druid I am playing becoming immortal in about 5 levels.
Have you, in fact, played this game?
But please tell me how your saves get so much higher at 17th level. I like the idea of the druid I am playing becoming immortal in about 5 levels.
Have you, in fact, played this game?
In his world, all casters wear CON stat boosters, resistance items and have multiple group buffs (morale & luck bonuses to saves) up ALL THE TIME. He plays it alright, but with such razor-thin precision that it sounds more like a think-tank than it does a social game.
He was sitting in an antimagic field, surrounded by traps, with two heavily armed guards on the other side of the door.
Wait a minute... that can't be right... because I used wands on him and the traps were magical.
I dunno, he had something going on. We couldn't just pop in with teleport, I remember that much.
Thanks for the anti-magic + armed guards details. It seems strange for a wizard to live/hang out in an anti-magic field where he can't use his vast power, but I suppose if he had some kind of device he could use to easily deactivate it in a pinch it might make a useful defensive mechanism.
Yeah, sorry, messed up on the antimagic thing. Like I said, I just remember we couldn't get in there magically.
Why is the wizard allowing some nobody to buddy up to him? I could see this happening over a long period of time, but not in a day or so. Even diplomacy has its limits. It is not a nonmagical mind control device. As an example I don't let anyone know my pin number for my ATM card, and there is not a diplomacy check high enough to get it from me. I am sure spellbooks are guarded just as closely if not closer.Actually there is. It's in the Epic Handbook, and the position is 'fanatacism.' Compare to the cults that willingly do mass suicides at their leader's command, etc.
Those diplomacy checks still take time, and a willingness to listen. If diplomacy could just be used to talk anyone into anything swords and shields would not be needed. Assuming Mr. Evil Wizard is as evil as most BBEG's I don't think all that talking would ever even take place.
Why is the wizard allowing some nobody to buddy up to him? I could see this happening over a long period of time, but not in a day or so. Even diplomacy has its limits. It is not a nonmagical mind control device. As an example I don't let anyone know my pin number for my ATM card, and there is not a diplomacy check high enough to get it from me. I am sure spellbooks are guarded just as closely if not closer.Your position confuses me. There's a lot of things that happen in the game that have never happened in our real world experience. It seems perfectly reasonable to me that one of these things would be what a very good social character can persuade others of.
Social engineering, yes. Instant trust that is better than what you give to life-long friends, no. If diplomacy were that strong you could just talk the bad guy down every time.
PC-Diplomancer: Look dude you don't really want to rule the world. People will start to depend on you, and blame you for problems. You have to deal with revolts, assassination attempts, and who knows what else. Really it is not as good as it sounds, and is nothing but a thankless job. You could have power, money, and pleasure with a lot less trouble through other means. What da ya say pal?
BBEG:Well since you put it that way I guess you're right.
In his world, all casters wear CON stat boosters, resistance items and have multiple group buffs (morale & luck bonuses to saves) up ALL THE TIME. He plays it alright, but with such razor-thin precision that it sounds more like a think-tank than it does a social game.But please tell me how your saves get so much higher at 17th level. I like the idea of the druid I am playing becoming immortal in about 5 levels.
Have you, in fact, played this game?
Look, I don't know what the guy's con bonus or his save was, but let's say I'm wrong, and it was +12 and not +7.
He fails the first time and takes 1d3 Con damage. No matter what the GM rolls, the wizard down by 1 on his bonus and possibly 2. Let's say he makes the second save, and flubs the third. If he rolls a 1 and 2 on his Con damage rolls, he is now at a +10 on his saves. He makes the 4th roll, and misses on the 5th for another 1 point of damage. He is still at a +10 and he makes his last roll.
In that scenario, he made worse than average saving rolls, but better than average rolls on resisting the damage. Neither of which were abnormally so. I'm not sure that every wizard is as designed to withstand poison to the degree you think they are. There are all sorts of other damage that he had to guard against.
Why is the wizard allowing some nobody to buddy up to him? I could see this happening over a long period of time, but not in a day or so. Even diplomacy has its limits. It is not a nonmagical mind control device. As an example I don't let anyone know my pin number for my ATM card, and there is not a diplomacy check high enough to get it from me. I am sure spellbooks are guarded just as closely if not closer.Your position confuses me. There's a lot of things that happen in the game that have never happened in our real world experience. It seems perfectly reasonable to me that one of these things would be what a very good social character can persuade others of.Social engineering yes. Instant trust that is better than what you give to life-long friends, no. If diplomacy were that strong you could just talk the bad guy down every time.
PC-Diplomancer: Look dude you don't really want to rule the world. People will start to depend on you, and blame you for problems. You have to deal with revolts, assassination attempts, and who knows what else. Really it is not as good as it sounds, and is nothing but a thankless job. You could have power, money, and pleasure with a lot less trouble through other means. What da ya say pal?
BBEG:Well since you put it that way I guess you're right.
That's why many people claim that diplomacy is broken, and they are right.
Why is the wizard allowing some nobody to buddy up to him? I could see this happening over a long period of time, but not in a day or so. Even diplomacy has its limits. It is not a nonmagical mind control device. As an example I don't let anyone know my pin number for my ATM card, and there is not a diplomacy check high enough to get it from me. I am sure spellbooks are guarded just as closely if not closer.
Hello, I am a wealthy banker from Nigeria. I wish to leave the country, but my government won't allow me to transfer the funds...
Greed is a surprisingly effective motivator.
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Rogues are not the worst class in pathfinder by far. The monk is the worst class followed closely by ranger.
Rogues do a crazy amount of damage for a non-fighter class. Rogue specialy abilities are very opitmal. A rogue can deny an enemy attacks of opportunity. This may not sound like much to you but it comes in handy when a rouge tumbles past the giant and hits it with sneak attack. The rest of the party can move for optimal flanks and casters can cast freely without making Concentration checks. It is a big deal.
Rogues can remove traps. So could a wizard by using animate dead or summon monster. Animate dead costs money. 50 gold per creature. Monster Summoning is free but also wastes a spell slot. I would rather have an optimized rogue disable the trap then waste my resources as a caster but your mileage may vary.
Wizards casting spells to mimick rogue powers is usually a group benefit. What does it matter if your stealth score is a +25 if the fighter in full plate is -4? Spells in the invisibility family, darkness, disguise self and alter self are all available to help the rest of the party be sneaky like a rogue. These spells require spell slots and I would be hard pressed to find many wizards or sorcerers memorizing/using multiple spell slots to "One Up" the rogues in the group.
The rogue does not have the best BAB, Hit Dice or armor. So what? The main thrust of the rogue is not supposed to be toe to toe combat. The rogue is a skirmisher and a bushwhacker.
Why is the wizard allowing some nobody to buddy up to him? I could see this happening over a long period of time, but not in a day or so. Even diplomacy has its limits. It is not a nonmagical mind control device. As an example I don't let anyone know my pin number for my ATM card, and there is not a diplomacy check high enough to get it from me. I am sure spellbooks are guarded just as closely if not closer.Hello, I am a wealthy banker from Nigeria. I wish to leave the country, but my government won't allow me to transfer the funds...
Greed is a surprisingly effective motivator.
I can't believe people are still falling for that one, even if it is not likely to work, however every once in a while I hear of them getting over on someone.
I can't believe people are still falling for that one, even if it is not likely to work, however every once in a while I hear of them getting over on someone.Why is the wizard allowing some nobody to buddy up to him? I could see this happening over a long period of time, but not in a day or so. Even diplomacy has its limits. It is not a nonmagical mind control device. As an example I don't let anyone know my pin number for my ATM card, and there is not a diplomacy check high enough to get it from me. I am sure spellbooks are guarded just as closely if not closer.Hello, I am a wealthy banker from Nigeria. I wish to leave the country, but my government won't allow me to transfer the funds...
Greed is a surprisingly effective motivator.
Wait, you know Abadom as well?
Rogues are not the worst class in pathfinder by far. The monk is the worst class followed closely by ranger.
Rogues do a crazy amount of damage for a non-fighter class. Rogue specialy abilities are very opitmal. A rogue can deny an enemy attacks of opportunity. This may not sound like much to you but it comes in handy when a rouge tumbles past the giant and hits it with sneak attack. The rest of the party can move for optimal flanks and casters can cast freely without making Concentration checks. It is a big deal.
Rogues can remove traps. So could a wizard by using animate dead or summon monster. Animate dead costs money. 50 gold per creature. Monster Summoning is free but also wastes a spell slot. I would rather have an optimized rogue disable the trap then waste my resources as a caster but your mileage may vary.
Wizards casting spells to mimick rogue powers is usually a group benefit. What does it matter if your stealth score is a +25 if the fighter in full plate is -4? Spells in the invisibility family, darkness, disguise self and alter self are all available to help the rest of the party be sneaky like a rogue. These spells require spell slots and I would be hard pressed to find many wizards or sorcerers memorizing/using multiple spell slots to "One Up" the rogues in the group.The rogue does not have the best BAB, Hit Dice or armor. So what? The main thrust of the rogue is not supposed to be toe to toe combat. The rogue is a skirmisher and a bushwhacker.
I just realized I was thinking that worst = bad, and normally it does, but does being the worst class have to be a bad thing. I don't agree with the ranger being the worst class behind the monk, but even if it were true I don't think it would automatically make the ranger not worth playing.
Rogues can remove traps. So could a wizard by using animate dead or summon monster.No, he cannot.
At best he can SET OFF traps.
Now why is this trap here?
Well someone put it there.
Why?
To warn them when someone was getting close...
So you get off the trap.. great. Lets assume it's not an autoreset. So at best you're not directly hurt. You just warn the bad guys to buff up and try to ambush you instead of possibly being surprised by you.
This is a HUGE swing against you.
-James
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Look, I don't know what the guy's con bonus or his save was, but let's say I'm wrong, and it was +12 and not +7.
He fails the first time and takes 1d3 Con damage. No matter what the GM rolls, the wizard down by 1 on his bonus and possibly 2. Let's say he makes the second save, and flubs the third. If he rolls a 1 and 2 on his Con damage rolls, he is now at a +10 on his saves. He makes the 4th roll, and misses on the 5th for another 1 point of damage. He is still at a +10 and he makes his last roll.
In that scenario, he made worse than average saving rolls, but better than average rolls on resisting the damage. Neither of which were abnormally so. I'm not sure that every wizard is as designed to withstand poison to the degree you think they are. There are all sorts of other damage that he had to guard against.
Everything else aside (and it's a lot of everything), what kind of 17th level wizard doesn't have limited wish or wish prepared, or at least on a handy scroll, as a get out of anything free card?
Granted, that's a long way down on the ways I'd try to deal with the situation, because it's expensive.
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Talek & Luna wrote:Rogues can remove traps. So could a wizard by using animate dead or summon monster.
No, he cannot.
At best he can SET OFF traps.Now why is this trap here?
Well someone put it there.
Why?
To warn them when someone was getting close...
So you get off the trap.. great. Lets assume it's not an autoreset. So at best you're not directly hurt. You just warn the bad guys to buff up and try to ambush you instead of possibly being surprised by you.
This is a swing against you.
-James
Look, I don't know what the guy's con bonus or his save was, but let's say I'm wrong, and it was +12 and not +7.
He fails the first time and takes 1d3 Con damage. No matter what the GM rolls, the wizard down by 1 on his bonus and possibly 2. Let's say he makes the second save, and flubs the third. If he rolls a 1 and 2 on his Con damage rolls, he is now at a +10 on his saves. He makes the 4th roll, and misses on the 5th for another 1 point of damage. He is still at a +10 and he makes his last roll.
In that scenario, he made worse than average saving rolls, but better than average rolls on resisting the damage. Neither of which were abnormally so. I'm not sure that every wizard is as designed to withstand poison to the degree you think they are. There are all sorts of other damage that he had to guard against.
Everything else aside (and it's a lot of everything), what kind of 17th level wizard doesn't have limited wish or wish prepared, or at least on a handy scroll, as a get out of anything free card?
Granted, that's a long way down on the ways I'd try to deal with the situation, because it's expensive.
And people complain that wish is a crappy spell....
You are right wish would definitely do the trick, which is why as a DM whenever anyone uses a wish it had better be with a basic, uncomplicated statement that stays within the realm of wish.
Upon reading numerous posts and flipping through the books... I agree it is strange that he was hurt by the poison. There are numerous, fairly cheap, ways it could have been avoided.
Seeing as this was my third character, though, I doubt it was a deliberate attempt to keep me alive. This was a guy who put DC 30 traps in his dungeons at 4th level.
Maybe he didn't think of it. It's strange considering I was making poisons, but maybe it slipped his mind.
Upon reading numerous posts and flipping through the books... I agree it is strange that he was hurt by the poison. There are numerous, fairly cheap, ways it could have been avoided.
Seeing as this was my third character, though, I doubt it was a deliberate attempt to keep me alive. This was a guy who put DC 30 traps in his dungeons at 4th level.
Maybe he didn't think of it. It's strange considering I was making poisons, but maybe it slipped his mind.
Sounds like the lady was your girl that day
i've read all the posts and all they really boil down to is- in a perfect situation a wizard can always simulate a rogue because of this spell or that spell (and you can say the same thing about a wizard simulating every other class),it seems most people only play pure combat pathfinder,and the GM in most campaigns dog the rogue and never give that player the chance to play out his role. and PROVE how valuable they can be.
well i don't play campaigns nor run campaigns like that and feel sorry for the players who do and boil PF down to a more complicated version of RISK. isn't pathfinder a roleplaying game? don't GMs even do roleplaying anymore?
even more importantly its a story game-the GM tells a story. i hate power players and have no love of powergaming campaigns it defeats the whole point of what pathfinder and DND was ever designed to be. from a story aspect look at all good stories for example, why aren't all books about just wizards? IF the heroes in all those books were wizards and could overcome everything with magic, well THAT'S a boring story!!! why not just make Drizzt a wizard, why even have tasslhoff in the dragonlance books (i can't even imagine them without him!!!), why not just make Richard Rahl overcome everything with magic, why have the halfings in lord of the rings!? Tasslhoff and the halflings from LOR would just be collateral damge to most of the posters here let alone the LEAST POWERFULL. they should have just made Frodo a wizard he could teleport the ring and drop it into the lava, end of story.
ok maybe rogues ARE the weakest class to power play-so don't play them and go back to your game of over hyped DND minis you've turned pathfinder into and quit dogging my rogues! my world obviously has much more flavor and story than some posters dice roles will ever reveal about a rogue! you know maybe your wizard or fighter could slay my players rogue in 1 round but you know what? next thing you know the powerful king that the rogue helped in his past is recruiting avengers from the order of wizards the rogue returned an artifact too- who hire the order of paladins the rogue returned a holy avenger too to provide escort- and these holy avengers have the backing of a curtain deity because the rogue cleared an old forgotten temple of all traps making it restorative to use and the backing of the paladins deity/deities as well. all the while the rogue is watching from above from his final resting plane still feeling he accomplished great things in his life and died a true hero. being a hero has nothing to do with being the most powerful, it actually leans more to being weaker and have the balls to try anyway.
If players truly feel rogues are so worhtless than thats mainly the GM fault for not letting the rogue shine. and i enjoyed CoDzilla post. i could say its GM fiat to allow pure combat or magic to rule everything! it's perfectly allowed within the rules for a GM to hand wave a few rules to allow a rogue his moment or for a rogue to get lucky within the rules. the ones who are truely upset about such a post are ones who can't explain such a thing with math formulae and number crunching, well there's more to a ROLEPLAYING game than numbers and math is SUPPOSE to reveal.
IF some of the posters here played in my campaign you would grow to appreciate a rogue and i GUARANTEE i could kill your all mighty fighter or wizard with traps and sticking to the rules, or easily use up 20% or more of your resources. And yeah you could probably avoid curtain traps with a curtain spell but what if you can't cast that spell or ANY spells. spell components can be taken away so can spell books and bonded items, the GM controls what spells you can get and therefore anticipate spells that are harder to spell around.
traps that trigger anti magic sphere's and shut doors and lock them, traps that release monsters that target your weaknesses (ex-pit traps with rust monsters in them-fighters love those), traps that trigger other traps and unleash monsters with easy access to the wizard, rotating rooms that provide violent motion, traps that summon monsters were they need to be, traps that trigger in the next room but have an effect 1 or 2 rooms away for summon set-offs, traps that divide the party to rooms with other traps. put bluntly a clever dm can build a trap that will kick any player in the nuts if he wants to, and should if there's a rogue in the party.
plus rogues have one bonus that no one has mentioned or fails to even apply. traps should be fairly plentiful in parties with rogues. if a rogue scouts a bit ahead, and finds a trap and disarms it and none of the party is withing range of the trap guess what? ONLY THE ROGUE GETS THAT EXP! in the party i GM for the rogue is over 1 level ahead of the other level 3rd level pc's
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Everything else aside (and it's a lot of everything), what kind of 17th level wizard doesn't have limited wish or wish prepared, or at least on a handy scroll, as a get out of anything free card?
One with a sane DM. Letting a wizard scribe wish or limited wish into his spellbook is one of two things:
1) The DM has given up, and will basically give the players whatever they want. The fighter is probably wielding a +12 adamantium brilliant energy vorpal lightsabre of wounding...that also grants 3 wishes per day.2) The DM intends to twist the wishes to the point where the wizard would be better off burning the spellbook instead of ever preparing the wish spell.