Well you could... if you used one of number of tricks that frees up a hand in combat. Unarmed Strike being the least cheesy. Quick Draw to get your weapon out is another. And using that quick Draw/Stow shield feat with a spiked shield another. There is always Spiked Armor or a Spiked Gauntlet.
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On page 490, under activation, it says that "To activate a scroll, a spellcaster must read the spell written on it." It goes on to say that you don't need any components for casting a spell. It explains this better under "activate the Spell".
"Activate the Spell: Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll. Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus. (The creator of the scroll provided these when scribing the scroll.) Note that some spells are effective only when cast on an item or items. In such a case, the scroll user must provide the item when activating the spell. Activating a scroll spell is subject to disruption just as casting a normally prepared spell would be. Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance."
It never says that you need an open hand to cast. It only says that you need to read the scroll and that is it for activating the scroll. I believe you can do this for spellstrike and spell combat and hold your sword in the casting process. Cause, all you need to do is read the scroll bro. You would need to cast defensively if you are in a threatened square.
There is no restriction as to how I spell strike as long as I cast a spell then use my weapon to attack with the spell. I could cast a few squares away, then walk up to my target and swing my weapon to smite my foe.
You could also sovereign glue it to the back of another PC's armor so you could read it without needing to hold it =)
I seem to remember a specialized magical shield that was published in a late 3.5 book that allowed for something like this. Handier, though, as you aren't tethered to your ally for that Scroll of Detect Secret Doors...
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Uhmmm, Spellstrike != Spell Combat
I can't see any problem with that working with Spellstrike.
The only problem is Spell Combat "The magus must have one hand free to use this ability, even if the spell being cast does not contain somatic components.".
You have to read a scroll in order to use it, and it has to be done while you fight with your sword since it happens in the same full round action. Unless the scroll flies the Magus has to hold the scroll for a while, it is up to the DM if that counts as free-hand or not.
It is a good question, I don't remember if that came up during the playtest.
It is the only time any rule says that you have to have a hand free, during Spell Combat that is. I do believe the rule of holding the scroll and casting is the same as casting with your hand free. You are casting a spell with a scroll and it goes off the same as casting a spell normally. You are casting a spell with somatic components with a normally cast spell, and the somatic components are taken care of in a scroll.
As for the timing of casting a spell and fighting with your weapon, you do one then the other. You do not cast and fight in the same moment. A player cast a spell then swings his weapon, or swings his weapon and casts a spell. If you are holding a scroll in the first place I can't see why you are not getting your spell off. I believe there wouldn't be a problem with spell strike either.
In the Magus play test file, it doesn't say what kind of action it is; hence, I believe it is a standard action. You can get out a scroll and cast and smite your foe as far as I'm concerned.
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It is clear that, without a free hand, you can't use Spell Combat.
The only question is whether your hand is free while holding a scroll or not.
No. A hand that has something in it is, by definition, not free. I think it's clear that scrolls can't be used in Spell Combat, though they can be used for Spell Strike as it doesn't have that free hand requirement.
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In the Magus play test file, it doesn't say what kind of action it is; hence, I believe it is a standard action. You can get out a scroll and cast and smite your foe as far as I'm concerned.
In order to use Spell Combat you have to use a full round action
I'm sorry, I was talking about spell strike with out mentioning it. Sorry for the confusion.
It is clear that, without a free hand, you can't use Spell Combat.
The only question is whether your hand is free while holding a scroll or not.That is the million dollar question. Obviously, I feel different than YuenglingDragon.
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That is the million dollar question. Obviously, I feel different than YuenglingDragon.
I don't know how you could.
Activate the Spell: Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll. Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus. (The creator of the scroll provided these when scribing the scroll.) Note that some spells are effective only when cast on an item or items. In such a case, the scroll user must provide the item when activating the spell. Activating a scroll spell is subject to disruption just as casting a normally prepared spell would be. Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance.
It says that it requires no material components or focus. Just that. That means that it must still require verbal and somatic components, right? You need to be able to speak and move your hand freely for those, right?
Where is the confusion? I don't mean that in a mean or sarcastic way. I really don't understand where in RAW the other side of this disagreement comes from.
Wasnt it already established that what you are trying to do does not work? Besides the obvious necessity that the spell HAS to be on the Magus spell list or the requirement of the Broad Study Arcana and lvls of another spellcasting class, I seem to remember reading something on the boards about this question and it was determined that when you use a scroll, you arent actually "casting a spell", but activating an item. It just so happens that when the item (aka scroll) is activated, it triggers a spell.
I could be completely wrong about this, and if anyone has definitive proof of my error please let me know...this is how ive interpreted the question, and my DM agreed, in a game that i am currently playing a Magus.
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I am coming from the opposite of you guys in that I think scrolls are a spell completion item; hence, there a spell. I may be coming from a previous edition with this.
I think all you have to do is read the scroll. That somatic components are not needed, just that you are reading to scroll to get the spell cast and that is it. I feel since somatic components are not mentioned and all it says to do is read the scroll, the spell goes off as a spell. As if it were a spell completion item read from a scroll.
If it is proven that somatic components are needed to cast a spell, then a lot what people do is wrong. I've seen rods of maximize and the like used with scrolls. I've seen casters hold staffs and cast a spell with a scroll. I've never thought that somatic components were a part of a scroll. I've always assumed since it says that all you have to do is read the scroll, the spell is cast with out any help.
I've been wrong before, but I don't think somatic components are needed when casting a scroll.
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If you look to the SRD bit I quoted above you'll see that it specifically mentions that you don't need material or focus components. If it didn't require other components, don't you think that those would have gotten some space in the same sentence?
No, I don't think so. I think if they don't mention whatever is left out is not a component in the mix. I'm kinda thinking you feel those components are there. I feel the opposite that if they are not mentioned, they are not a factor. I believe only what is written is what you deal with. That no other thoughts ought to come into what is written.
I've been wrong before, it wouldn't be the first time. The next round of Ultimate Magus lets ask if we could use scrolls, wands, and other activated items in Spell Combat, and Spellstrike. We may be surprised at Jason's answer.
Wasnt it already established that what you are trying to do does not work? Besides the obvious necessity that the spell HAS to be on the Magus spell list or the requirement of the Broad Study Arcana and lvls of another spellcasting class, I seem to remember reading something on the boards about this question and it was determined that when you use a scroll, you arent actually "casting a spell", but activating an item. It just so happens that when the item (aka scroll) is activated, it triggers a spell.
I could be completely wrong about this, and if anyone has definitive proof of my error please let me know...this is how ive interpreted the question, and my DM agreed, in a game that i am currently playing a Magus.
Actually in this case you are partially wrong -- IF you have broad study and a scroll of the other class's spell, and you make the check to use the scroll then you could use the scroll with Spellstrike -- if you can somehow use the scroll without holding it (maybe a unseen servant holds it for you?) then you could use spell combat with it as well.
Why?
A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way.
Since it works just like a normally cast spell, and you can normally cast spells with spell combat (or use normally cast spells with spell strike) you can use a spell from a scroll (provide it's on your spell list, or you have broad study for the spell list the spell is on) with these abilities -- currently.
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No, I don't think so. I think if they don't mention whatever is left out is not a component in the mix. I'm kinda thinking you feel those components are there. I feel the opposite that if they are not mentioned, they are not a factor. I believe only what is written is what you deal with. That no other thoughts ought to come into what is written.
But that doesn't make any sense. Why would they say, "You don't need these two components" and not say you don't need any components if that's what they meant? They specifically mention the two things you don't need to cast a spell from a scroll. Everything else is needed since it is "cast the normal way."
And yes using a scroll in a threathened space IS going to provoke an AOO... period.
Um... proof?
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But that doesn't make any sense. Why would they say, "You don't need these two components" and not say you don't need any components if that's what they meant? They specifically mention the two things you don't need to cast a spell from a scroll. Everything else is needed since it is "cast the normal way."
No, I don't think so. I think if they don't mention whatever is left out is not a component in the mix. I'm kinda thinking you feel those components are there. I feel the opposite that if they are not mentioned, they are not a factor. I believe only what is written is what you deal with. That no other thoughts ought to come into what is written.
Somatic Components are not mentioned and I believe they are not a factor. One other feels the same as you do. Those that are mentioning about taking aoo's I don't think I've mentioned much of, if they mean me. Of course, you have to cast defensively if you cast in a threatened area. You can opt to cast out of a threatened area, not defensively, then move into a threatened area then use spellstrike. And when I mean spellstike, I mean just hitting your foe. You have to understand the rules for touch attacks and spells to use spellstrike. I've read people saying they cast one round then attack the next. That is not understanding how to use a spell with a touch attack.
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Somatic Components are not mentioned and I believe they are not a factor.
You're not answering the basic question that makes your "not a factor" assumption invalid. Here it is again:
But that doesn't make any sense. Why would they say, "You don't need these two components" and not say you don't need any components if that's what they meant? They specifically mention the two things you don't need to cast a spell from a scroll. Everything else is needed since it is "cast the normal way."
They say what components you don't need. Specifically. Material and Focus components are not necessary. It doesn't say "Material, Focus, and somatic components are not necessary." If that's what they meant why would they not say that?
What you posted above. It's cast in the normal way. It therefore must provoke.
I'm uncomfortable using that phrase to prove my statement that it must require verbal and somatic components without also admitting that it must cause an AoO.
You do realize you can still cast defensively right? That's the part I'm worried about. That "must" in there seems rather final when it isn't.
ALSO:
Final answer on the somatic components that you are both missing.
The magus must have one hand free to use this ability, even if the spell being cast does not contain somatic components.
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You do realize you can still cast defensively right? That's the part I'm worried about. That "must" in there seems rather final when it isn't.
Oh, well I think you could still do it defensively. Since it is cast in the normal way normal things like casting defensively must apply, too.
ALSO:
Final answer on the somatic components that you are both missing.
The magus must have one hand free to use this ability, even if the spell being cast does not contain somatic components.
I think you missed a couple posts in here. The whole somatic compoent bit is about that. The claim is that the hand is still free holding a scroll. Or something of that nature. This has gone in a few circles and I'm not even sure what we're arguing about anymore.
A hand holding something isn't free. The question to ask is "Can you hold something in it?" If you are already holding something then the answer is no and the hand is not free.
Somatic components do not matter with spell combat -- the hand must be empty regardless for the class ability to work.
Basically put it doesn't matter if the spell/scroll requires the somatic components at all -- the hand must be free and if it isn't free (i.e. it's holding something) then you can't use spell combat because the spell combat ability requires the empty hand.
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Somatic Components are not mentioned and I believe they are not a factor.You're not answering the basic question that makes your "not a factor" assumption invalid. Here it is again:
They say what components you don't need. Specifically. Material and Focus components are not necessary. It doesn't say "Material, Focus, and somatic components are not necessary." If that's what they meant why would they not say that?
But that doesn't make any sense. Why would they say, "You don't need these two components" and not say you don't need any components if that's what they meant? They specifically mention the two things you don't need to cast a spell from a scroll. Everything else is needed since it is "cast the normal way."
I have a different view
"Activation: To activate a scroll, a spellcaster must read the spell written on it. This involves several steps and conditions.""Activate the Spell: Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll. Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus. (The creator of the scroll provided these when scribing the scroll.) Note that some spells are effective only when cast on an item or items. In such a case, the scroll user must provide the item when activating the spell. Activating a scroll spell is subject to disruption just as casting a normally prepared spell would be. Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance."
Casting from a scroll is not the same as casting from a spell in your mind, or what you call, “the normal way”. In the excerpts above all it says to activate a scroll is, “Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. “ Therefore, is is not cast in the usual way. It goes on to say, “ The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll.” It does not mention any other needs to cast a spell. No somatic components or anything. Let's not add anything that is not there.
The next sentence says, “ Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus.” If you don’t need these two things, and all you have to do is read the scroll to cast the spell, how much more do you not need somatic components to activate the scroll. Somatic components are not a thought in the writers mind. He doesn’t mention them; Hence, you don’t need somatic components to cast from a scroll. It is not cast like a spell from your mind.
The next phrase is a caveat, is says, “(The creator of the scroll provided these when scribing the scroll.)” How do you scribe physical movement on a scroll. Give directions, it defeats the purpose of casting from a scroll when all you have to do is read from the scroll to cast a spell. You would be reading the directions, not doing them. The scroll is cast when you read it. Not like casting from your mind; Hence, you don’t cast from a scroll like a spell in your mind you don't need somatic components. The material components or focus is a physical thing and can be brought to the making of a scroll. The writer does not mention somatic components cause they are not a factor in making the scroll. It is kinda hard to do, do you take pictures of your movement. I would hope not.
Just a side issue: Scrolls suffer from ASF too -- so if the magus is casting from a wizard scroll in full plate -- well I hope it's a still spell scroll.
Arcane Spell Failure.
I believe at 13th level Magus are proficient in plate and there is no ASF. Yes, till then there is ASF.
Please note I said wizard spell -- not magus -- magus's don't have ASF when casting magus spells.
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I was fooled! I see what you are saying, good point. Magus scrolls are so much more expensive at higher levels. With the exception of first level spells, which is what we are talking about. There isn't really any other spell to use except elemental touch, but that is not a spell I would use much. At higher levels, Shocking Grasp is the way to go, metamagic feats and all. In which case, they would be much more expensive than Wizard scrolls.
Happens to everyone. If you stick to light armor you could get away with bard spells though. Summoner spells too.
As a matter of fact if I was going to try this I would choose Summoner. Summon Monster 9 as a 6th level spell? Haste as a second level spell? Teleport as 4th, with D.Door as 3rd?
Just a bunch of YES PLEASE!
This was my biggest argument against the summoner spell list in the beta -- I wish they would have listened to it.
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Ah-Ha! I found it where it clarifies if a scroll uses somatic components or not and I was wrong. On page 458, the last paragraph on the left hand side under Spell Completion, it says, "(the final gesture's, words, and so on)". Describing how a scroll works, it does use somatic components. You guys are right, but no one ever showed where it says in the books. That is why I didn't take any one's word for it I have found so much wrong on these boards. I like posted results to the rules that are written.
On the other hand, Spell Trigger items function the same way but with a word to activate it. I shall open another thread and mention these things along with Spellstrike.
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Ah-Ha! I found it where it clarifies if a scroll uses somatic components or not and I was wrong. On page 458, the last paragraph on the left hand side under Spell Completion, it says, "(the final gesture's, words, and so on)". Describing how a scroll works, it does use somatic components. You guys are right, but no one ever showed where it says in the books. That is why I didn't take any one's word for it I have found so much wrong on these boards. I like posted results to the rules that are written.
That's one way to look at it. That we didn't post the bit of evidence that you think constitutes evidence. There was, however, a great deal of RAW that was posted that supports the premise that scrolls require verbal and somatic components. You just argued against them with reasons that I found laughable. Which is why I quit trying days ago.
I truly am glad you were able to find evidence that brought you around to the thinking of the majority of posters here. It is good to have these issues put to rest before we start fiddling with the next version of the Magus.