|
Hello again!
I have had a lot of good responses in my other thread LEVEL 15 AND UP... BROKEN??? and I wanted to extract some of the good ideas in a cleaner thread.
So, experienced GM of all over the world, please enumerate the biggest problems that a GM could face with characters of lvl 15 to 20, and your ways to deal with it.
Thanks in advance for you time and your answers. This will help a lot of GM without experience in high levels play.
It is very wise of you to start a new thread with a less contentious title, kudos!
I posted in your other thread, so I will link to the post here.
TLDR version: High level switches from round-tactics to encounter-tactics, and from encounter-strategy to adventure-strategy. This is really important for managing high-level spellcasters.
Secondly, NPCs need to use the same tools as PCs do, or things will fall apart. Handled correctly, it should be an arms-race where the casters have to keep their best spells in reserve because they never know when the opposition may strike in a moment of attrition. In other words: "Gandalf could have cast lightning bolt, except he was spamming non-detection and STILL hoping Sauron didn't make his CL check." (just a joke, let's not do the whole LotR-PF thing here)
These two concepts taken together mean that the GM cannot simply continue running the game as he did during low-mid levels. If that saddens or disappoints some, they ought to take measures to stay in the sweet spot.
I welcome a discussion of high-level GM tactics, since I'm getting up into those levels for the first time in Pathfinder. I hope we can keep it civil, and if people want to discuss "broken or not" they should remember there's a thread for that.
One Nasty thing to watch for in High level play is the lack of actions for BBEGs.
Often a pair of lower CR BBEGs is a better challenge than even a single BBEG, because it only gets ONE set of actions to the players 4 or more. At a minimum make a Lieutenant that CAN'T be ignored while the party takes down the BBEG, A cleric spamming heals and buffs on the BBEG is a huge pain.
I made a nasty aberration that had a dual mind, so it had two sets of actions, it was a deep old one style monster.
Another good thing IMO is make the reaction of the gameworld comparable to the ability of the PC to influence it.
If they are very strong, they are very famous, and people will, in the long road, be prepared to face them.
If they abuse tricks, mind controls and the like with members of a faction, that faction will hunt them soon or later.
If they can foretell and teleport, just make the divination and the travel the necessary start of the adventure. Or make things enough messed up to make their tricks NEEDED to go on.
yes i hope this discussion can be civil with good advice too.
One of the things i found when running high level games, was that the bestiary gets smaller and smaller, or have less and less monsters at these levels. That makes it hard for GMs to keep the party guessing, and constantly challanged. This might get solved somewhat by the new bestiary 2, but lets assume it doesnt, and ill tell you what i did to fix this.
Basicly i started using the monsters as more of a template, using them as the base, and then giving them either class levels (if i was boring) or exciting new abilities. I mean how cool would a lich be, if once the party defeated him he resurrected as a giant skeleton dragon, attacking the PCs all over again? Just think of your favorite movies, books, computer games, and youll recieve plenty of inspiration, atleast i did. If you grant different BBEGs or monsters exciting abilities, without changing the essence of meeting it (the red dragon is still vulnrable to frost), the PCs will feel challenged, and it can make som seriously epic moments, as the PCs are forced to deal with something they didnt expect.
I also agree that generally the BBEG and stuff, should use spells just as liberally as the PCs do, to force the arms race, and avoid the GM getting pushed over, becouse he is using a smaller stick than the players.
One of the crux issues with D&D high level play is that you have a heavy swing in preparation time. In my advanced years of bearding and balding I can safely say that you have to spread the load. Any group that resists is looking to start a new campaign prior to seeing level 20. They will also find level 12 to 20 to be a rollercoaster of an experience at the table.
The best way to burn out a campaign is for the GM to take it all on themselves and constantly attempt to be one step ahead of the PC's. Don't get me wrong it can be done and, in some regards, would seem to be the default setting for GM'ing in general. But it takes some serious focus and a number of other virtues to pull it off.
I try to turn the biggest problem high level group GM's face by making it my constant companion and ally. Player Characters eventually achieve enough power that they can literally challenge the authority of the GM within the rules. You can impose restrictions, house rules, contracts, etc but it doesn't solve the issue of finding yourself running low on "if you do X prepare to be crushed by my big Y." So the way I've dealt with it, and had the best success, is to get the players to help me build their adventure experience. I don't let them see behind the screen as it were, or build NPC's but I tailor the story and encounters directly to the wants and desires of the group.
If you suddenly present an adventure that is geared DIRECTLY towards the goals of your player characters you will have less road blocks and tom-foolery from them and you may actually get to have FUN in your seat as GM. Don't get me wrong there is still not a lot you can do to anticipate the bizzare and game breaking ways your players will implement their powers. I just firmly believe that transitioning from "GM as story teller" to "GM as story facilitator" is a definite shift in thinking that all groups need to buy into prior to engaging in high level antics. If your group is composed of strangers and unwilling participants then I recommend closing the books at level 12-15 and moving to greener story pastures.
Again, all the above drivel is my personal experience and your mileage may end up being measured in milimeters or microns.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I find that simply realizing that the PCs are the HEROES of the story and that it is perfectly okay for them to use their hard-earned levels and big flashy abilities to absolutely devastate the enemy can be a really big boon to a high level game. Far too many GMs have control issues and are just hell bent on making everything difficult on the PCs ALL the time.
PCs at levels 15+ are meant to be admired, feared, praised, despised. They should be able to easily wipe the floor with 95% of the crap that crosses their path.
Excepting the occasional demon lord, archmage or ancient dragon, things by and large should get easier as you gain levels, not harder. Otherwise, what's the point? Just be a farmer if everything is going to be the same all the time.
I will keep my post generic, as I do have previous edition D&D experience, but not specific pathfinder knowledge for high level play. But the biggest offender is spells, and they fall into three broad categories. However it can apply to magic items, skills, and feats as well.
The first category is movement based spells that get you from point A to point B via various means, i.e. flight, blink, gate, teleport, etc. These are the "get out of" or or "get into" jail for free card. This makes the players very mobile, and hard to pin down. Apply this to an opposing NPC and expect a little world chasing. I often add invisibilty, and related spells to this group, as it is undetected movement.
The second category is knowledge based spells, whether it is divination, mind reading, etc.
The third and final is defensive based spells that make you hard to hit, damage or shuts down character abilities. This includes anti magic shell, dispel magic, etc.
The above are a headache and the DM needs to prepare ahead of time to deal with them as part of the adventure.
I only see one problem with high level gaming: lack of creativity.
Many GMs love to run campaigns exactly like their favorite crpg; as long as the GM can scale encounters appropriately and their players aren't whining about the boring linearity of the campaign, no problems should arise. The downside to this lies in the lack of available challenges. Only so many high level enemies exist in Golarion; the next logical step would be eliminating planar threats at their source. I've run that kind of campaign before...very tedious, feels like Diablo after a while. Hack and slash should never make up high level sessions.
A good way to avoid this is to face off the players against locations rather than tangible enemies. A malevolent Genius Loci is a nice fit, although the options are limitless. Keep in mind, that by Genus Loci I mean in concept, not the 3.5 variant.
Example: nearby town goes quiet, visitors are abducted and never seen again, monsters lurk nearby, "detect evil" faints the caster (no save), the monsters look disturbingly familiar, "We're killing townsfolk, but how will we survive?", etc. The story has been done to death, but most of the time discovering and killing the main villain seems to do the trick. The characters may be able to create planes, redeem fiends, sing demiliches to sleep, and eat deities for breakfast, but something small-scale like this will keep them on their toes and get their creative juices flowing.
I've learned a couple of hard lessons similar to those mentioned above.
1) High-level character are very powerful, and can easily overwhelm the DM.
Part of the solution is to embrace this, and let them. Remember they play characters they enjoy playing, and want to see them develop, and if the story is worth playing, so would you.
Also, shorter time and hard choices are now part of the challenge, not just power.
2)Prep-time is a killer for high-level play.
The solution is to go generic. Recycled npcs and monsters are essensial to keep your sanity. Npc classes are your friend.
Handwave new and exiting powers to sell the bluff - a warrior with a moral boosting power will be perceived as a cavalier.
Also, its easier to improvise more powerful monsters than the other way around.
Create only what you need, and prepare to improvise. Let the players decide their own path, you can't force them anyway, and make sure you can recycle as much as possible.
3) Divination spells can ruin plots.
Note that powerful npc can manipulate later divinations with ambigious actions and relying on minions with initiative.
It is easy to throw the players off the trail by secretly being specific on which-npc-did-what-on-whose-orders. Just try, is fun!
I've done a game from level 1 to level 24. I can personally tell you, that game taught me how to deal with overpowered players.
I simply start stacking the odds.
Around level 15?
Their stronghold was sieged. They had become some seriously legendary heroes at this point, so their stronghold had attracted commoners, and other peoples around it. So, when the siege started, they were pretty much forced to bring those people inside. Which, caused more issues. As assassins were amongst those people.
There was this artifact. Minor artifact, where a person that holds it has to make a will save or turn chaotic evil. SO. During the siege, not only are they dealing with thousands of undead at their walls, they have to deal with innocents suddenly turning mad and attacking each other, and the heroes, while at the same time, a group of about eight elite assassins were set up to really mess their world up.
A player had to sacrifice themselves, and effectively bury themselves in a few hundred tons of rubble.. To really damage all of the assassins.
Note, this is not something I recommend doing.
The siege took about three sessions. It was particularly a troubling and harrowing experience.
But.. You should get the general picture.
Hell. Look at the spider man movies, with the green goblin. Attack them on all fronts. Emotionally. Spiritually. Physically. Make them fight like a cornered rat at times.
Just don't be like me, and do it for an entire adventure. I've had my group actually beg me to have their characters meet normal challenges, or they're going to start to develop disorders.
As mentioned in the other thread, I am running a Pathfinder game where the characters are currently 18th level. It's a challenge, but certainly not an insurmountable one.
(For the record, one of my players keeps a campaign journal here: http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/community/gaming/campaignJournals/toSl ayTheImmortal3XHomebrew. Note the game began in 3.5 and converted to Pathfinder when the final core rulebook came out.)
An attempt to provide some basic thoughts in some organized fashion:
- All advice needs to be taken with the grain of salt that party makeup can all the more make a difference at high levels, so what works for my guerrilla skirmisher spellcaster party does not necessarily work well for your team of barbarian druidzillas, and vice versa.
- Sandbox adventures work best. Come up with the general situation and what's going on in the world and who the major players are. Players this high level can really drive the story and it's easiest if you can adapt and let them do so. If you like very linear, railroady dungeon crawls, do not run high level games.
- Choose your save or die/save or suck spells wisely and save them for really key, important story moments/big fights. Throwing a 20 or a 1 can be the difference between life and extremely permanent death sometimes. Challenges should be potentially lethal of course--but a party member should be much more likely to be killed by the pit fiend than by the random door trap you decided at the last minute should be set with a destruction spell (words of experience).
- Unfortunately, the Bestiary is limited in its high CR monsters, and the GMG NPC list tends not to go higher than around CR 13. Deal with this in two ways: 1) Attack the party with large numbers of less powerful creatures (it's okay if they blow a few high level spells to dispatch them quickly), and 2) Prepare your enemies well ahead of time. Creatures with class levels (player races and monsters alike) and advanced hit die creatures are very useful ways to make fights more challenging; you just need to take the time to prep the NPCs. I have PC Gen which has a VERY useful monster advancement function that I have taken a LOT of advantage of.
- Let the party use its abilities. I've seen people fear high level parties' abilities to teleport/plane shift/etc. You have to go in understanding and accepting that the party has a crazy powerful toolbox at your disposal. Just remember that you do too. If they plane shift to escape a big bad, just run an astral side trip. I liked what Evil Lincoln said in the other thread: the world is your dungeon now. So they're bypassing the wild magic zone in the archipelago and finding a way to speed through the desert rather than jumping over that one 20' deep pit. Use things like zones covered in forbiddance and antimagic field type wards in LIMITED areas to give occasional challenges WHERE THEY MAKE SENSE, but if they want to teleport into the drow high priestess's bedchamber instead of fighting through the mooks outside, let them--and then have a great deal of fun playing out the consequences of what it exactly MEANS to directly teleport into the drow high priestess's bedchamber.
- Following that: low level adventures are things like "find the artifact" and "go to the bottom of the dungeon to fight the one dragon there." High level adventures should be, "Destroy the One Ring with your bare hands," and "stop this war" and "is that a flight of dragons coming our favorite city's way?"
- Ability damage still sucks especially when there's no saving throw, and the cleric only has so many restorations and heal spells.
- Remember that a lot of low powered spells and abilities are still very useful. Our party shadowdancer still triggers a billion touch-trigger Alarm spells (he checks for traps, but never seems to where I put the alarm radius). Magic Aura and other illusions and similar tricky spells can fool even high level characters who aren't paying attention.
- Use mooks as speedbumps. High level parties will mow them down quickly but they use resources.
- Use storylines where time--to a point--is of the essence. This doesn't mean deprive the party of rest, but do NOT do the 15 minute adventure day nonsense. Put them through several challenges, combat and non combat alike, before they have a chance to settle down. (And if the party decides to rest or take a side trip when time IS of the essence, play out those consequences--the party is still powerful enough to deal with it.)
- Anything you use to curb their abilities should be occasional and to provide a challenge, not to be a punishment or feel frustrating.
- DON'T SWEAT IT when the party just does away with the big bad with a scary combo of spells and attacks in two seconds. Congratulate them for playing their characters well, and remember--the dice may not be on their side next time. Take notes on how you can challenge them more effectively for next time and keep going. Heck, I throw in some lower CR encounters just to remind the party how badass they are.
- Work on your descriptions and make everything seem as scary as possible. My 17th level party has charged into fights with powerful elementals and demons, but they shied away from taking on the horde of zombies, just because I made it sound disgusting and terrifying. (Unfortunately, there was some treasure down there. Their loss.)
- They are the epic, legendary heroes of the world. Make them feel like that. Kings and Queens should kiss up to them. (Or if they're a villainous crew, they should be feared appropriately.)
-----------------
And now, a tangent, if you've gotten this far: it makes me sad when I see, "Levels 16-20 are for NPCs." And I know some of the people who say that are Paizo staff. So many class abilities, ESPECIALLY in Pathfinder, don't see their full realization until higher levels, when you can use certain abilities more times per day, etc. Capstone abilities are so much fun to aim for. IMO, if it's there to entice players, then it's entirely just... well, it's just WRONG to then slap the players on the wrist and say, "No, you can never have that, that's for the GM and not you."
TL;dr: High level play should be EPIC and FUN and AVAILABLE if you want to go there. And it's definitely DOABLE.
There are two basic ways I look at populating a game world when planning for future high-level play.
1) The PCs will be the toughest/baddest summama-whatzits on the PM by level 17ish. In this case, they will have to be pitted against challenges that either involve other planes, and possibly the politics between or within those planes, or will have to be presented with issues that will affect the lives of an entire nation or more. The second takes having a group of players and characters that might actually care about how their decisions shape such events, but it can be great when it works.
2) And I generally prefer this one on balance: they AREN'T just the baddest of the bad. They may be in the top-tier of individuals in the game world, but there are still a handful of NPCs in each major region that may be able to challenge them. This still leaves both options from above open to some degree, while being able to present a very wide variety of type and difficulty in challenges. Some things they do will make allies of some of these NPCs, others will make enemies (that can show up at very inopportune times, creating tense and awesome encounters, possibly spanning an entire world or more, and multiple sessions with planning, divination, teleporting and plane shifting).
The bottom line, as it seems a few have already touched upon, is that to make a high-level game work the GM has to put a lot of time and effort into challenging the players in a way they enjoy being challenged, that lets them play with their awesome high-level toys without getting routine or boring.
Every once in a while, I like to throw in a good social adventure with mostly politicking and information gathering for the first couple sessions. Or, a hardcore dungeon-crawl, Tomb of Horrors style, with a bunch of interesting traps and movement challenges and a different set of monsters around every few corners.
A specific tactic that can work, if used sparingly and not too heavy-handed, is putting a timetable down that has a deadline of catastrophic consequences. This essentially coerces the PCs into stringing more encounters (which at high-level they should be capable of) which forces them to manage resources better to succeed at the end of the day.
Another thing I've learned: Make sure the Players understand what their level means. In my setting, characters above 9th level are rare. This means that the PCs are starting to become widely-recognized, and have trouble acquiring things at their own power level through public channels (like high level scrolls and the like). Just letting the players know that they've gone from average to outliers on the power curve can make them look at things a little differently.
|
Another observation: high-level play changes from round-tactics and encounter-strategy to encounter-tactics and adventure-strategy. The PCs are powerful enough to determine the course of the adventure, and so they should be choosing their encounters, rather than pushing through a series of encounters in order. Embracing this view helps a GM cope with several challenges in high level GMing, especially when casters are involved!
I've been playing now for 20+ years and GM'ing primarily for 16 of those, but up until 3rd edition my group only ever got from 1st level past 10th a single time. In 3.x I've taken 3 parties to 15th-ish and a single group to Epic. Most of those higher groups I played or adapted AP material. I admit that my favorite phase of the game is low to mid levels and I think my dungeoncraft skills show my struggle with the options at Name level and beyond.
Changing your Dungeoncrafting technique can be tricky, like moving from handtools to powertools. Could you expand a bit on the bolded section of your quote (the longer version from the OP's other thread)? I know it'd be extremely constructive for GM's with experience running high to Epic level adventures & campaigns to share with the community. Please share not only what tool to use but how you use it when giving examples.
--School of Vrock
Changing your Dungeoncrafting technique can be tricky, like moving from handtools to powertools. Could you expand a bit on the bolded section of your quote (the longer version from the OP's other thread)? I know it'd be extremely constructive for GM's with experience running high to Epic level adventures & campaigns to share with the community. Please share not only what tool to use but how you use it when giving examples.
Well, I can only speak for my (artificially long) run at mid-levels in Pathfinder, I wouldn't call it high-level at all. But certainly, once the PC develop powers that let them change or bypass the environment, then the players start to think in terms of "what do I have to fight to accomplish my goals?"
So if "tactics" are used to win a battle and "strategy" is a plan to win the war... at low levels PCs develop tactics to use on a round to round basis, using battlefield control to weaken the enemy, for instance. At higher levels, you might use a competent rogue or divination magic to learn the next encounter's position, then use a well placed wall spell, teleport, or passwall to simply bypass the encounter if it isn't of direct importance to your goal. Some GMs might get frustrated by this, but I think James Jacobs has it right upthread; bypassed encounters are still in play.
I try to think of it like the encounters are creatures and the entire encounter-site is like a combat encounter. Most PCs have magic powerful enough to manage entire encounters with relative ease, which is like casting hold or grease might take a creature out of the fight for a few rounds. That doesn't mean they can't come back into the fight, using healing or their own magic.
The GM's job is to set a goal for the players to accomplish, knowing that they're going to try and do it in the simplest manner possible. This requires a different approach than simply laying out the elements of an adventure in the order you would like them explored.
I wish I could explain it more clearly, or that I had some honest 15th+ advice to give you instead of extrapolations from mid-level play. I'm pretty sure that what I'm saying is correct, but also an oversimplification. GMing at high levels is a complex process that can't really be reduced and is usually very dependent on the first dozen levels of a campaign.
To take an example from my Runelords campaign:
Later in the same dungeon, they came across a room full of hill giant zombies. This would be an easy encounter in most cases, but for the fact that they neglected to gather any intelligence before charging into the room. This encounter could have been easily bypassed with a wall spell, stealth, or heck even the patience to clear some rubble! But instead, they took it head on, and ended up losing enough resources that they couldn't achieve the objective: find the evil wizard with enough spells left to take him down.
They had to flee. And this is a living dungeon, so they have seriously damaged their prospects of a second run on the fortress. The element of surprise is gone, the security has been doubled, and there's no resting for 8 hours and coming back.
If they had concentrated on drilling down to the boss and bypassing as many encounters as possible that did not directly factor into their assassination attempt, they could have succeeded.
Maybe not the best examples, but that's what I am thinking about while we discuss high-level encounters.
|
|
I find that simply realizing that the PCs are the HEROES of the story and that it is perfectly okay for them to use their hard-earned levels and big flashy abilities to absolutely devastate the enemy can be a really big boon to a high level game. Far too many GMs have control issues and are just hell bent on making everything difficult on the PCs ALL the time.
PCs at levels 15+ are meant to be admired, feared, praised, despised. They should be able to easily wipe the floor with 95% of the crap that crosses their path.
Excepting the occasional demon lord, archmage or ancient dragon, things by and large should get easier as you gain levels, not harder. Otherwise, what's the point? Just be a farmer if everything is going to be the same all the time.
Pcs are not always heroes of the story. I like the spirit of your post but seriously 95% floor wiping sounds more like being a janitor than an adventurer.
Pcs are not always heroes of the story. I like the spirit of your post but seriously 95% floor wiping sounds more like being a janitor than an adventurer.I find that simply realizing that the PCs are the HEROES of the story and that it is perfectly okay for them to use their hard-earned levels and big flashy abilities to absolutely devastate the enemy can be a really big boon to a high level game. Far too many GMs have control issues and are just hell bent on making everything difficult on the PCs ALL the time.
PCs at levels 15+ are meant to be admired, feared, praised, despised. They should be able to easily wipe the floor with 95% of the crap that crosses their path.
Excepting the occasional demon lord, archmage or ancient dragon, things by and large should get easier as you gain levels, not harder. Otherwise, what's the point? Just be a farmer if everything is going to be the same all the time.
That does bring to mind another high-level GM tactic, though... Give them problems that involve NPCs vastly weaker than them, but in which a (simple) violent solution is completely inappropriate! Lesser villains who are just bad enough to intervene, but not bad enough to just murder.
Let the PCs feel like super-powerful heroes, but give them a chance to wreck the "hero" part of that title by using disproportionate force. This is especially effective when combined with legitimate authority. Take the case of a town guard doing something really heinous and anti-social, then when the "hero" intervenes he is a vigilante.
"Your word against mine" situations, or situations where the player has to break his word. All of these conflicts can work well with NPCs who are not powerful enough to threaten the PCs directly, but are influential enough to be a problem.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
PCs at levels 15+ ... They should be able to easily wipe the floor with 95% of the crap that crosses their path.
This is the problem with most troubling high level games. This is something the DM should avoid. One easy way to avoid this is to either have the monsters prepared for the PCs or to no longer track resources (HP etc) of monsters and have them die when they have served their purpose. For example, if the fighter charges, crits, and deals 300 points of damage to a guy you needed to have around for two rounds then deal the damage and have a "contingency heal" trigger or something similar that saves him.
In short, the goal is to challenge the PCs (not kill them) and if every battle is 95% floor wipe (or even 66% floor wipe) then no one will be having fun with a "too easy" game. The other option is to provide more powerful opponents. For example, I had a particularity optimized 12th level part attack a CR 19 dragon, to be reduced to 1 PC (who managed to get everyone out alive.) They came back "prepared" and wiped the floor with the dragon as if he was a trivial encounter. So they went from 2 dead, 3 stunned, and 1 able to dimension door out to dead dragon in a few rounds. They had a blast.
Just watch out for the opposite extremes. If everything is super tough (CR 15+) than (1) you are going to run out of appropriate encounters REAL fast, and (2) it won't be any fun for lack of realism.
If there were so many CR 15+ characters and creatures everywhere, how come the PCs didn't encounter them till now? Having so many is a great way to make the players feel like their having earned the last 15 levels mean squat.
PCs at levels 15+ ... They should be able to easily wipe the floor with 95% of the crap that crosses their path.This is the problem with most troubling high level games. This is something the DM should avoid. One easy way to avoid this is to either have the monsters prepared for the PCs or to no longer track resources (HP etc) of monsters and have them die when they have served their purpose. For example, if the fighter charges, crits, and deals 300 points of damage to a guy you needed to have around for two rounds then deal the damage and have a "contingency heal" trigger or something similar that saves him.
In short, the goal is to challenge the PCs (not kill them) and if every battle is 95% floor wipe (or even 66% floor wipe) then no one will be having fun with a "too easy" game. The other option is to provide more powerful opponents. For example, I had a particularity optimized 12th level part attack a CR 19 dragon, to be reduced to 1 PC (who managed to get everyone out alive.) They came back "prepared" and wiped the floor with the dragon as if he was a trivial encounter. So they went from 2 dead, 3 stunned, and 1 able to dimension door out to dead dragon in a few rounds. They had a blast.
This whole part of the discussion is crossing the line into what is general advice for GMs on this matter, and what specifically works for you and your group. (Which is still useful, but just noting we're hitting YMMV territory.)
I agree nothing should be too easy--or nothing should be too easy all the time. But some people think near TPK is a blast; other think it's the hallmark of an overly belligerent GM who doesn't want their players to have any fun (I am NOT saying you are an overly belligerent GM; I am saying different PLAYERS react to those situations in different ways).
As I mentioned in my post, it works for me to have a few weaker encounters that the players enjoy their high level power--but it also uses up their resources which they may need for stronger, nastier fights around the corner. And that's what works for me; others may want to see different challenges.
Maybe the best advice I can give is to now more than ever solicit feedback from your players and see how they feel the direction of the campaign is going.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
so many CR 15+ characters and creatures everywhere, how come the PCs didn't encounter them till now?
Most 13-15th level games I know go "planar"
As I mentioned in my post, it works for me to have a few weaker encounters that the players enjoy their high level power--but it also uses up their resources which
I guess I didn't consider the possibility that people might not like the razors edge. In all the high level games I've played as a group (a head count of 8 different groups off the top) each group has enjoyed the edge. None of them have been half or more than half "easy" encounters. Now that I think of it, I've been largely disappointed with High Level games at GenCon etc because most have been cakewalks (despite sitting down to a pregen 20th level Character.)
I find that simply realizing that the PCs are the HEROES of the story and that it is perfectly okay for them to use their hard-earned levels and big flashy abilities to absolutely devastate the enemy can be a really big boon to a high level game. Far too many GMs have control issues and are just hell bent on making everything difficult on the PCs ALL the time.
PCs at levels 15+ are meant to be admired, feared, praised, despised. They should be able to easily wipe the floor with 95% of the crap that crosses their path.
Excepting the occasional demon lord, archmage or ancient dragon, things by and large should get easier as you gain levels, not harder. Otherwise, what's the point? Just be a farmer if everything is going to be the same all the time.
The difficulties should be increased and/or new challenges should be introduced as you get better at what you do, so really in the grand scheme things should not get easier.
If there were so many CR 15+ characters and creatures everywhere, how come the PCs didn't encounter them till now?
That is campaign dependent, and maybe the PC's have not done what is needed to get their attention. If the 15+'s have to deal with the PC's then there is really no reason to have the mooks around.
Most 13-15th level games I know go "planar"
This. And planes solve more than one problem - special plane features can find more than an use for all those "unused" spell slots ;)
It was a prevalent feeling even in the days of TSR when modules pretty much topped out at 12th with some very rare exceptions in the latter days of AD+D. Because they realised that high level encounters tended to become rocket-tag, where the side that first gets initiative blows away the other. I can think of quite a few spells that were never meant for AD+D PC's like cacodaemon, guards and wards, or Wish. Players were never "slapped on the wrists" as most GM's ended thier campaigns at either the 11-13th level or even the 7-9th.
I would generally agree here. I only played in 2 AD&D games that went beyond about L12, one was the Rod of Seven Parts and the other was a Planescape game where we played through most of the major scenarios throughout the Blood War.
Though, the structure that created the de-facto capping of most groups at that level has been gone for quite some time. GMs that haven't yet evolved from that old mindset are doing a disservice to their players, if the players are interested in playing beyond 12, in my opinion.
It was a prevalent feeling even in the days of TSR when modules pretty much topped out at 12th with some very rare exceptions in the latter days of AD+D. Because they realised that high level encounters tended to become rocket-tag, where the side that first gets initiative blows away the other. I can think of quite a few spells that were never meant for AD+D PC's like cacodaemon, guards and wards, or Wish. Players were never "slapped on the wrists" as most GM's ended thier campaigns at either the 11-13th level or even the 7-9th.I would generally agree here. I only played in 2 AD&D games that went beyond about L12, one was the Rod of Seven Parts and the other was a Planescape game where we played through most of the major scenarios throughout the Blood War.
Though, the structure that created the de-facto capping of most groups at that level has been gone for quite some time. GMs that haven't yet evolved from that old mindset are doing a disservice to their players, if the players are interested in playing beyond 12, in my opinion.
Exactly. My comments were entirely and very specific related to the way Pathfinder classes are designed, with many class abilities improving incrementally by level and capstone abilities.
Let me put it this way: if I were a brand, brand new person to Pathfinder, never played any fantasy RPG before ever, and I was reading a class description and saw, "Aw, man, weapon mastery! That looks awesome! I can't wait to get to 20th level to get that!" And then my GM said, "Ah, sorry, players can't ever get to 20th level, that's just for me for NPCs," I would be PISSED. Of COURSE many campaigns don't get that high, and normally at the start a GM will say, "This will probably go from x to y level," but hopefully folks will understand the basic concept I'm trying to get at here. If something was "meant for GMs only" it should be in the Gamemastery Section of the core book or in the Bestiary or the GMG, and not at the shiny red button ending of a PLAYER class description.
Again, I will repeat: I am commenting on the organization and game design of PFRPG only. (I did play AD&D and saw both unusually high level and more typical lower level campaigns, and agree that the way levels were treated were different--but the systems are so different in this respect it's like comparing apples and strawberries, IMHO.)
It was a prevalent feeling even in the days of TSR when modules pretty much topped out at 12th with some very rare exceptions in the latter days of AD+D. Because they realised that high level encounters tended to become rocket-tag, where the side that first gets initiative blows away the other. I can think of quite a few spells that were never meant for AD+D PC's like cacodaemon, guards and wards, or Wish. Players were never "slapped on the wrists" as most GM's ended thier campaigns at either the 11-13th level or even the 7-9th.I would generally agree here. I only played in 2 AD&D games that went beyond about L12, one was the Rod of Seven Parts and the other was a Planescape game where we played through most of the major scenarios throughout the Blood War.
Though, the structure that created the de-facto capping of most groups at that level has been gone for quite some time. GMs that haven't yet evolved from that old mindset are doing a disservice to their players, if the players are interested in playing beyond 12, in my opinion.
If there is a reason that many GM's don't do high level games or drop out of the game entirely it's attitude that's embodied in that word in the last line. "disservice".
There seems to be some sense of player entitlement as if the GM by doing the backbreaking work of giving you a sandbox to play in is obligated to take the game to some infinite level that you want to acheive. The GM is doing a heck of a lot of work for litle (or usually) no reward. So what if your Gamemaster is capping his games at 12th or 9th or whatever level. HE's given you the ride and you should be bloody well thankful that he took it as far as he did. Disservice? what are you paying your GM an hourly rate? Are you even meeting his or her expenses? Last I checked most GM's and players are a gathering together of friends and acquaintances.... not contracts for hire.
I believe there certainly IS an implicit contract between GM and player, one that I do my best to observe in both roles. That contract is to maximize the enjoyment of all involved, as far as I'm concerned.
I am of the very strong opinion that no one should DM if they do not enjoy it, and have that goal in both heart and mind. I agree that the DM does a LOT of work, and at times it is wracking, and s/he should be lauded and well appreciated for it. Most of the games I've played in that lasted held to the tradition of making the location and such as convenient for the DM as possible and providing food and drink out of that courtesy. That said, the DM is one person of a group generally between 5-8 from my experience, and a DMs heavy-handedness or inability/unwillingness to run a game that suits the players has been the most consistent reason for miserable or unsuccessful games.
I know I already posted to this, but I thought I'd post concisely my two biggest problems in running a high level campaign.
1. Preparation of NPCs.
Writing up high level NPCs--or even lots of mid-level ones gets very time consuming, and spellcasters are the worst because of choosing spell lists and making sure you have at hand what all the spells DO. This is in part my own fault for sending the PCs to an area where a lot of high level spellcasters happen to live (it makes sense in the story). But high level spellcasters also make great bad guys--the problem is how much time you're willing to give to this kind of prep to be sure you've build effective opponents (and allies). All the more frustrating is that there are no official Pathfinder high level NPCs in the core RPG rulebooks to pull from (the GMG NPC gallery is awesome but goes up to CR 13--which is still useful to you as a high level adventure writer, but not all you need).
a) Don't be afraid to ask for outside help if you need help. I actually paid someone $20 to write me up some statblocks I could quickly reference and am still using them. I don't regret the money spent, I can tell you. :)
b) Write up lots of statblocks ahead of time, when you have a moment free. Use generators like PC Gen to help generate characters quickly (and you can always make quick adjustments to a few spells and feats to one character sheet to make quick variants).
2. How to make sure the party still gets treasure without focusing on individual per-combat fights. Something I'm working on--since the traditional dungeon crawl doesn't work well for a high level party and they can just wind walk past your cleverly disguised treasure cache because they're busy moving on to the next story, I'm actually having trouble keeping these guys equipped sometimes. Sure, when they fight the aforementioned high level NPCs they have stuff but then a lot of times, to make their saves high enough etc. you end up using copies of the Big Six---so then getting creative with different kinds of equipment is a must as well. This is also dependent on what kind of campaign you're running. If I had them track down dragon hordes it might be less of an issue. ;)
When it comes to high-level characters and their ability to teleport around the globe, get direct answers from all-knowing entities and can pull favours from Kings, you have to be ready for that.
You start by asking yourself "Ok, what if they try to...." and plan.
Eventually however, you should start to rely on those abilities. Make them necessary for the PCs to succeed. They have to teleport into the BBEG's lair because there is no other way in. They have to cast commune or contact other plane because the killer left no clues.
And eventually from that point, you stop caring how the PCs are going to solve the challenges you place in front of them. You know who, when, where, and how they are going to assassinate the King of Anywhere so simply let the PCs know there is a plot and let them take it from there. At really high levels, the party will have more resources at their disposal than you can account for, so don't.
When it comes to high-level characters and their ability to teleport around the globe, get direct answers from all-knowing entities and can pull favours from Kings, you have to be ready for that.
You start by asking yourself "Ok, what if they try to...." and plan.
Eventually however, you should start to rely on those abilities. Make them necessary for the PCs to succeed. They have to teleport into the BBEG's lair because there is no other way in. They have to cast commune or contact other plane because the killer left no clues.
And eventually from that point, you stop caring how the PCs are going to solve the challenges you place in front of them. You know who, when, where, and how they are going to assassinate the King of Anywhere so simply let the PCs know there is a plot and let them take it from there. At really high levels, the party will have more resources at their disposal than you can account for, so don't.
I think that sums it up nicely!