How much alchemy can a country use?


Rules Questions


I'm playing in the kingmaker campaign, and I'm very curious how insane this amount of crafting truly is.

Picture if you will: Mathers is a level 6 alchemist. He has six ranks in Craft: Alchemy, 3 INT modifier, he's trained in alchemy, has a +2 obsessive trait for being a gnome, and gains a +6 competence bonus from being an alchemist and masterwork alchemist lab) for a total of +22 on his craft checks.

At level 3 he gained the ability swift alchemy, allowing him to be able to create alchemical items in half the time, effectively doubling his weekly output. My DM has equated that to being able to roll two alchemy checks a week.

After calculating a year of work + time spent with civic duties (we're wasting a couple years after finishing the second module) this equates to an average around 5,000 gold worth of alchemical items produced a year after material cost is taken into consideration.

Now take this into consideration, if I get the master alchemist feat it gives a +2 bonus on my crafting and if I'm using it to make normal alchemical items I use the items GP value as it's SP value when determining my progress, so does this mean I get to craft at ten times the speed again? This is madness!

This means on average I'd be making 50k+ in GP a year. ... our little country can't support that much, I mean I suppose I could use some of it to make fireworks for festivals and reduce the BP costs, but it gets to a point where everything's so saturated that I'm not even sure neighboring cities would be able to purchase/want that much in alchemical goods. This amount only goes up as I level and technically at level 18 I can make any alchemical item as a full round action if I have the materials.

At what point do you think a country becomes saturated, even if I'd be making something useful like gunpowder the country only requires so much.

Thoughts, opinions please?


Shipping costs. Honestly once you are shipping it out and about to chelax or where not it cost you more.


Ah yes, death and taxes. Even so, I find it ludicrous that a level six character is earning so much. I'm trying to think of different uses for this to spread out enough to cover the need for the surrounding area. Festivals were a good start with fireworks and of course Alchemists Kindness after said ceremonies.

What kind of daily applications could you think of that average people would want en-masse?


At that point, you run into an issue of supply/demand. Yes, the book says the item sells for Xgp but due to the market saturation, it may only sell for a fraction of that.

Also, it really changes the face of a country with mass market alchemy. With just the Core book, Acid and Fire and Tanglefoot Bags can change how hunting is accomplished by the peasantry or how guards apprehend criminals. Antitoxin can make expanding into the wilderness much easier because you don't have to worry as much about your colonists dying of snake bite. Sunrods and tindertwigs make daily life and exploration much easier.

I know this falls into the dread realm of applying reality-based logic to a game world (and this may not even be all that applicable to Kingmaker specifically) but it can lead to fun restructuring of how the societies of your individual game work.


Maybe somekind of limit based on the size of the community the alchemist is based in. After that transport costs/taxes/rival alchemists (or whatever craft) make it unviable.

Cheers
Mark

Dark Archive

I think you're likely to, if you make a sufficient variety of items, including those from the Adventurer's Armory, you will not likely over saturate your market to the point where your items are trash.

However, it is a lot of money. I'd cut that 50k number perhaps in half to account for shipping costs (including associated loss and breakage) and increased supply lowering demand and thus lowering the prices at home. It's still a good bit of money if all your math is right but that's the benefit of a good craft check, huh?

Dark Archive

Let him seed some of his alchemy money into a business. It'll cut down on his income for now, and give him a small but believable stipend when he's off campaigning again. He'll have to buy some kind of store, hire and train employees, and hire someone qualified to manage it while he's gone. That should suck up a lot of income and instead channel it back into the economy, rather than "You now have 50,000gp."

Personally, I love a good build-your-own thing. :D

Dark Archive

Saedar wrote:

Also, it really changes the face of a country with mass market alchemy. With just the Core book, Acid and Fire and Tanglefoot Bags can change how hunting is accomplished by the peasantry or how guards apprehend criminals. Antitoxin can make expanding into the wilderness much easier because you don't have to worry as much about your colonists dying of snake bite. Sunrods and tindertwigs make daily life and exploration much easier.

I know this falls into the dread realm of applying reality-based logic to a game world (and this may not even be all that applicable to Kingmaker specifically) but it can lead to fun restructuring of how the societies of your individual game work.

This is totally a cool tack to take, here. The prevalence of the alchemical supplies in the area would make their use more common, as you suggest, and also explain lower prices, regionally (reducing the amount of gold the PC is racking in).

It's also possible that an alchemist could come up with some of his own recipes, such as non-combat-affecting options, such as fertility drugs, insect repellants (for crop protection, more than personal comfort), etc. If cheap sources of lubricant can be manufactured, heavy stones can be slid into place much easier. If alchemy can provide a means to strengthen wood against decay, sort of a quasi-magical pressure-treatment method, buildings can last longer without maintenance. Different oils could make wood burn longer, or not burn at all, either to protect buildings from fire, or to make firewood last several times as long, could also change things.

There are a ton of options for an alchemist to come up with formula that would have had no effect that adventurers would really care about, but could make life better / easier for the local residents.


Here are a couple of other potential issues to consider:

1) Materials & supplies. Sure, making a tanglefoot bag may require a reasonably small amount of reasonably cheap materials - but when you try to get enough raw materials to make 10,000 of them, you may just get a "sorry, we can't fill that order" from your supplier. Or, worse yet, he may fill your order, only to be out of ingredients when you need them for something serious.

2) Production risks. We're talking alchemy here, right? If you are stocking silos full of raw materials and warehouses full of finished goods, what will be left of your town first time a fire starts?

3) Competition. It doesn't always play nice. Especially if you have silos of flammables sitting by your lab.

4) Supply and demand. Eventually, you'll over-saturate your small country's demand for tanglefoot bags. At that point, you have 2 choices: research new products, which will require substantial investment of time and money, or export - which will involve dealing with logistics, taxes and tarrifs and irate customers when a pride of Fire Drakes eats a shipment of alchemist fire...

Sovereign Court

Yes, it is kinda ridiculous becasue you're interpreting the skills incorrectly.

Craft rules are only to deterime the cost and time it takes to make an item.

If you want to make money from that, you should be rolling your profession skill. That takes into account issues like takes, overhead, shipping, demand, etc.

Do that math with profession and you'll see it is much more reasonable.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

If you are crafting for a livelihood you should use the:

"You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning about half your check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work."

If the character has invested feats/class abilities I might attach a reasonable (2x-4x) the amount. Though truth be told, as a GM, I expect far more than half of that to spent in living/business expenses if you are trying to simulate years of non-adventuring.

This really isn't a new problem. In fact your example is pretty negligible compared to what can be done via 'fabricate' and magically supplemented crafting.


Now, if you are willing to forgo the "I break the economic model with my class features" option, I think it might be reasonable to use those features to build up a a truly terrifying stock of alchemicals that can later be utilized by your armies.

If I were GMing and you built up a stockpile of Alchemists Fire (or poison for that matter), I'd allow a bonus to the equipped army for a battle or two until it seemed reasonable that the stockpile was used up.

If you stockpile Anti-plague, then you could reasonably ameliorate or even avoid the effects of the Plague event.


Absolutely, that's why I wanted to come up with a variety of different substances that can be used for a larger range of practical uses. Even if I'm not crazy, this amount of money I can easily recognize would be detrimental for someone my level to be earning (upsetting player balance and causing rifts between other players who will start insisting that I share said wealth), so I'm more than happy to soak it back into the new kingdom for bonuses. Absolutely, there's only so much raw materials to be crafted with, that's why I'm learning to be crafty myself and figure out what sort of things I'll need to keep producing.

Selling and distributing is definitely more of a profession skill, something I'm more than happy to invest in. Luckily there's an alchemist building that I want to purchase, something I can use this money to buy BP towards.

I find the concept of being able to produce enough black powder to consider having a rifle brigade appealing, sword brigades with alchemy blades (as seen in the original Eberron campaign, but it seems to fit the theme) pretty dandy.

Boisterous celebrations with spectacular fireworks unlike any other kingdom has, children running around the streets speckled with glowpaste, dramatic plays with smoke, lights, flashes and mirrors.

Citizens having access to curative products at a drastically reduced price, disease and poison becoming much less rampant and critical accidental wounds allowing victims enough time to seek appropriate help with substances like bloodblock.

Crops withstanding harsher weather and plagues of insects.

Seems like a pretty magical world to me, and not a hand wave or arcane syllable spoken.

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