aberkov's page

OK, this is the build I believe I'm settling on:

Half-Elf Zen Archer:

Str 15
Dex 13
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 18
Cha 07

1 Cosmopolitan | ***Exotic Weapon : Temple Sword | *Precise Shot | **Perfect Strike
2 *Point Blank Shot | **Weapon Focus : Bow
3 Deadly Aim | **Point Blank Master
4 --
5 Far Shot
6 *Improved Precise Shot | **Weapon Specialization : Bow
7 Extra Ki
8 --
9 Vital Strike
10 *Pinpoint Targeting
11 Improved Critical
12 --

*Monk Bonus Feat
**Zen Archer Bonus Feat
***Half-Elf Ancestral Arms

Anyone see a glaring flaw or three in this? Also, anyone see why this wouldn't be a PFS-legal build?

Thanks y'all!
Andro

If you're able to, I'd recommend at least dropping the 8 CHA down to 7, and putting the two points towards CON. +1 to your HP/level and to Fort saves will be worth more than the -1 to your social skills. No reason why a hermit needs to be socialable after all. ;)

I've considered it, but between all-around good saves and the +1 HP/lvl for favored class, I'm not sure it's worth it - especially since I'll have to bump Dex up to 13. Right now, this is the spread that seems to make sense:

Str 15
Dex 14
Con 10
Int 12
Wis 18
Cha 07

Alternately, I could be nuts and go with a Dwarf Zen Archer (I have to admit the concept does amuse the crud out of me):

Str 15
Dex 13
Con 11
Int 14
Wis 18
Cha 05

I'm not very fond of abusing the proverbial "Charisma=Dump Stat" paradigm, but it'd actually click with the concept...

Right; Doc Genius here forgot there are a bunch of archery feats like Deadly Aim that will require Dex 13+... this will require some more numbershuffling...

So, as I'm digging into the Zen Archer deeper, I'm running into some dillemae that I'd appreciate community input with:

1) Statting. Usually, Dexterity is Monk's Friend. However, with Zen Archer:

a) AC (Dex+Wis stack) is not a top priority on account of one being a ranged combatant first
b) Ranged to-hit may base off of Wisdom, rathter than Dex, at 3rd level (Wis & Dex don't stack)
c) Str investment may pay of fairly well in terms of damage bonus, especially when flurrying.

These are the statblocks I'm considering: (20 point buy with a single +2 Stat)

Str 14 15 14
Dex 12 10 10
Con 10 10 10
Int 12 12 14
Wis 19 19 19
Cha 08 08 08

Var1 assumes a bit of Dex investment for sake of Acrobatics, Stealth and a bit of AC/Ref boost; Var2 and Var3 drop that Dex in favor of Boosting Str to 15 (16 later) or Int for some extra Knowledge skills.

Seeing as I've envisioned the character as an old hermit-pilgrim philosopher, I'm even tempted to drop Con a bit to illustrate his age and infirmity - points would pro'lly go into Int for a boost to Knowledge skills.

2) Race. Human seems like a straightforward choice - since I'm planning on basing archery off of Wis rather than Dex, Elf just doesn't make much sense. Half-Elf is a viable alternative, perhaps with Ancestral Arms : Temple Sword to give the character a bit of melee kick. I'm leaning towards HalfElf, simply to avoid the all-too-frequent human - anyone see flaws with that plan? :)

Abraham spalding wrote:

-Snip-Snip-

That's what it looks like to me as well, Abe, I'm just trying to find out if there's some secret reason why I should find those two feats appealing.

Just for sake of number crunching tables for future Zen Archers, this is what I got:

Lvl Flurry ---- Rapid -- Many (Double Damage on 1st attack)

1 - -1/-1 ----- -2/-2 -- +0
2 - +0/+0 ----- -1/-1 -- +1
3 - +1/+1 ----- +0/+0 -- +2
4 - +2/+2 ----- +1/+1 -- +3
5 - +3/+3 ----- +1/+1 -- +3
6 - +4/+4/-1 -- +2/+2 -- +4
7 - +5/+5/+0 -- +3/+3 -- +5
8 - +6/+6/+1/+1 +4/+4/-1 +6/+1
9 - +7/+7/+2/+2 +4/+4/-1 +6/+1

etc

Even assuming Rapid Shot and Manyshot stack - and I do not believe they do - all it'd result in is Rapid Shot to-hit table with first attack doubling in damage - nowhere nearly enough to make up for lower to-hit numbers and fewer actual attacks.

-Snip-Snip-

That's what it looks like to me as well, Abe, I'm just trying to find out if there's some secret reason why I should find those two feats appealing.

So, I'm working on a Zen Archer Monk build, and I'm trying to evaluate the worth of Rapid/Manyshot feats, since Zen Archer already has the ability to use Flurry of Blows with his bow, and Rapid & Many cannot be used while he Flurries.

Looking at Rapid Shot: Full Attack action nets +1 attack, all attacks get a -2 penalty. Since it also doesn't get Flurry's Level=BAB bonus, it besically functions as gimped Flurry of Blows?

Likewise, Manyshot: First attack in Full Attack action fires 2 arrows. No to-hit penalty, following attacks as normal, available to Monk at 6th level. At that level, his Flurry to hit is same as his BAB (+4) but gives him 3 attacks (+4/+4/-1). So, I get 2 chances to hit at my full BAB (instead of one with Manyshot), and also additional 3rd attack.

Can anyone give me a reason to even consider these 2 feats?

Additionally, while trying to number-crunch the comparison, I ran into another question:

Flurry of Blows assumes BAB = Monk's Level; it adds assumed TWF on top of it, resulting in actual Flurry to hit mods lagging behind behind monk's level by 2 (-1 at 1st level, 1 at 3rd etc). Since shooting a bow isn't actually a two-weapon attack, would my Flurry to-hit mod lose that -2 TWP penalty, or (as I assume) would the penalty stuck since Monk is offloading arrows like mad?

@Xander: I'm not sure how much of a impact class choice has on the question of "Will concealment be a major issue for me"

@Kortz: That's roughly my line of thinking, after consideration.

Also, to tie into both of your questions: I've actually done a bit of reading and I think Zen Archer Monk variant from APG might be a good solution - smong other things, it'd unlock Improved Precise Shot as bonus Monk feat for me at 6th level, so that'd solve my concealment dillema.

@Xander: Re: Elf VS Human, I'm torn. I don't expect an archer build to be heavily Int-dependent, and as Int impacts nothing except couple Knowledge skills and Skill-points for a non-caster (and Human skill bonus pretty much equals +1 skill point/lvl from Elf's +2 Int) I'm actually leaning towards Human, in favor of that extra feat and extra Ki per level.

So I'm drafting an archer build - I'm still in very rough stage, but I noticed a feat that made me wonder if concealment is something I should be concerned about.

Namely, the feat I'm looking at is Elven Accuracy; it allows bow attack roll that missed due to concealment to be re-rolled. Pre-req is, obviously, Race: Elf.

Now, this will have a significant impact on the build : Going for this feat requires me to go Elf, which means I'm netting 2 feats less than Human archer (losing 1st level bonus feat, plus feat slot spent on Elven Accuracy). So, is it worth it? :)

PS: I noticed picking Elf would also open "Stabbing Shot" feat to me - allowing me to make melee attacks against adjacent opponents; succesful hit pushes the target back and allows me to follow up with ranged attacks in the same round. Does that sweeten the deal? I'm still on the fence - there are tons of archery feats I could be burning slots on.

Thanks,
Andro

So you want to :

be a striker (do lots of damage)
cast buff spells

You don't want to:
be a tank
be a healer

The question James is asking is: what do you see this character doing?

The problem is: you really have no idea in your head about the character other than "he hits things and buffs". Well, there are many many builds that can Buff-n-Smash, from barbarians to paladins, and all of them can Buff-n-Smash. So, lets ask some more pointed questions to help everyone ... help you :)

1) Do you buff with arcane spells or divine spells? This dictates if we can put you in armor or not. If you are wearing armor, chances are, you lean towards divine casting.

2) Do you smash with a melee weapon, a ranged weapon, or a spell?

These questions are a good start. Get a picture in your head (or one from the internet) and tell us what you see. We know the character is supposed to Buff-n-Smash, but we need a bit more to go on, otherwise 12 builds are going to appear in this thread and we will have paralysis thru analysis, which usually ends in someone dropping their concept.

Fair enough, Doc, I can run with that :)

Buff-wise, I do not care overmuch if I use divine or arcane spells for buffing - I do prefer a "lean" spellcasting class such as sorcerer or oracle to a loaded one like wizard or cleric simply for the purpose of not overloading myself with incessant spell-picking.

Damage-wise, spell-backed melee damage is where I'd like to be - that's why I was looking at things such as Monk's unarmed attacks backed up by Oracle's damage/bleed mysteries and Inflict spells.

I would, however, like to point out (while being very grateful for helpful offers of providing more builds) that I was, in fact, asking for input on a specific class/talent build, not for someone to build a character for me from scrap :) My main concern is a) is there's something 'wonky' about the concept that could cause problems for me, party or GM and b) is there a power balance issue (I do not expect this concept to be over-powered, especially considering many people do optimize thoroughly, but I do wonder if he'll end up under-powered).

OK... Here's my rough wishlist:

I want to play a combat-capable class; however, most of my characters are "tanks" or "healers", so I'm trying to branch out into something else. I don't generally like 'lone rider' concepts, so I'd like to have some party support capacity (such as buff spells) without losing the ability to hold my own in combat, preferably relying on something other than blast-spells to output damage. I understand that leads to 'jack of two trades, master of none' syndrome, but I'm also hoping it'll keep me out of temptation of over-optimizing - something I'm prone to doing when I play single-role character.

Party-contribution-wise, I'm hoping to get to be the "Empower the Barbarian, Shield the Sorcerer, then wade in to lend a hand" kind of team-mate. Does that make sense?

aberkov wrote:

So, I'm planning on drawing up a PF Society character and finally venture forth to play; to that aim I've been tossing around some character concepts... here's one of them:

The concept, in this incarnation, is that of a morbid and death-obsessed Keleshite Bones Oracle / Hungry Ghost Monk;

What do you want this character to do?

How do you envision them doing things?

What do you think that this PC will bring to a party of fellow pathfinders?

These are all questions I would ask. Is it that you are enamored of somethings from each of these two classes? If so, what exactly?

-James

Well, I am trying to approach the character from a RP viewpoint, more than mechanical one; mechanically/tactically, I expect to be a melee combatant/skirmisher with support/buffing capabilities. I'm not 'enamored' of either of the classes, but rather looking for something other than vanilla DPS racer character concept.

I cant really coment on the whole thing but The Ac seems a bit low if you intend to get in and hit things with your fist. your talking an AC at level 12 before buffs that melee chars half your level can have.

Beyond this observation though i cant really coment on the rest the theme seems neat.

Well, ~25 is completely bare AC - no magic items, no buffs etc. I'm not fully familiar with PFS itemization pace yet, but assuming Ring of Protection +3 and Bracers of Dexterity +4 we're then looking at AC30.

Owl's Wisdom for +2 more, Protection from Evil for another +2, Magic Vestment for another +2... 36 sound better? :) And that's self-buffs only.

And if that's still looking grim, one feasible tactical option is always dropping Darkness on myself - with Darkvision, it will impede me none while inflicting fairly significant enalties for many oponents?

So, I'm planning on drawing up a PF Society character and finally venture forth to play; to that aim I've been tossing around some character concepts... here's one of them:

The concept, in this incarnation, is that of a morbid and death-obsessed Keleshite Bones Oracle / Hungry Ghost Monk; I do realize the build is perhaps not as powerful as it could be under some other options, but I did try to give flavor and theme at least some priority over optimization.

Please, shred away :)

LN Keleshite Human Bones Oracle (8) of Pharasma / Hungry Ghost Monk (4)

Str 14
Dex 14
Con 10
Int 7 +1 12th
Wis 17 +1 4th
Cha 15 +1 8th

Lvl | Class | Feats | Selected Class Abilities
1 | Oracle 1 | Extra Revelation; Lost in the Crowd | Clouded Vision; Armor of Bones; Death's Touch
2 | Monk 1 | Dodge
3 | Monk 2 | Combat Reflexes, Belier's Bite
4 | Oracle 2
5 | Oracle 3 | Weapon Focus: Unarmed | Raise The Dead
6 | Monk 3
7 | Oracle 4 | Extra Revelation | Voice of the Grave
8 | Monk 4
9 | Oracle 5 | Extra Ki
10 | Oracle 6
11 | Oracle 7 | Deepsight* | Soul Siphon
12 | Oracle 8

*Oracle Curse: Clouded Vision grants Darkvision 60' at 5th level, Deepsight would double this to 120'; however, seeing (pun intended) as this is the character's only vision mode and is supposed to be a major drawback, is taking Deepsight extra-sticky cheese melt?
**I didn't bother cluttering the progression list with the 'fixed' abilities; I figure anyone commenting on the build will know those already :)

Traits: Impressive Presence; Cliff Jumper

Skill Choices

Acrobatics Full points
Climb Partial
Diplomacy Partial
Heal Minimal
Know: Religion Emphasis
Perception Full points
Swim Minimal

General idea is to rely on the combo of Monk's AC Bonus, Dodge, Lost in the Crowd and Armor of Bones to lend the character some toughness (AC 22 without spells or magic items off the bat; up to 25 barebone AC at lvl 11) with Unarmed Striked with Bleed (Belial's Bite) providing damage dealing; spell list focus would be on buffs and utility spells; probably relying on inflict wound spells for additional damage.

Thoughts? :)

Cheers, Andro

Here are a couple of other potential issues to consider:

1) Materials & supplies. Sure, making a tanglefoot bag may require a reasonably small amount of reasonably cheap materials - but when you try to get enough raw materials to make 10,000 of them, you may just get a "sorry, we can't fill that order" from your supplier. Or, worse yet, he may fill your order, only to be out of ingredients when you need them for something serious.

2) Production risks. We're talking alchemy here, right? If you are stocking silos full of raw materials and warehouses full of finished goods, what will be left of your town first time a fire starts?

3) Competition. It doesn't always play nice. Especially if you have silos of flammables sitting by your lab.

4) Supply and demand. Eventually, you'll over-saturate your small country's demand for tanglefoot bags. At that point, you have 2 choices: research new products, which will require substantial investment of time and money, or export - which will involve dealing with logistics, taxes and tarrifs and irate customers when a pride of Fire Drakes eats a shipment of alchemist fire...