RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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| 9 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. |
OK, I have another question for you guys:
I have a Monk in my game. Last session, the following situation occurred. The monk was under the effects of a Haste spell. She then wanted to use Flurry of Blows, and spend a Ki point to make an extra attack.
I'm pretty sure that Flurry of Blows stacks with Haste. But I'm not so sure about the use of a Ki Point to make an extra attack.
By spending 1 point from his ki pool, a monk can make one additional attack at his highest attack bonus when making a flurry of blows attack.
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made using the creature's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a speed weapon, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can't use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)
So I think the question is, is the use of a Ki point a "similar effect" to that of a Haste spell or a Speed weapon?
What do you think?
Ki strike is in most respects identical to a speed weapon and since speed weapons do not stack with haste spells, ki strike does not stack with haste spells either.
As far as I can tell they would stack. Bonuses of the same type don't stack. The stronger one replaces the weaker one. Speed effects and haste spells both provide enchantment bonuses from the transmutation school. Since Ki is a supernatural ability, and not an enchantment effect, so... it stacks.
Deadly combination, really.
Edit: Hmm... I guess I'm wrong. I hadn't seen the other two replies.
I'm running a monk in a RL game and it seems it's kinda debatable on whether or not it stacks.
Would this be considered a DM call, you think?
I think it'd be fine. Not supported by the rules, but definitely completely fine to allow to happen.
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The "similar effects" clause on haste is poorly written at best, so it is up to DM fiat to make the decision. I let it happen because there is literally no good reason not to let them do so, it is not like the monk is the most beast damage dealer out there.
I honestly think if they weren't mean to stack that it would be mentioned in the monk section because of how class specific this interaction is, and how OFTEN it is likely to come up given the nature of how you want to buff a monk.
Thanks to all for the feedback! That's gonna help for future reference.
Usually, when an effect grants an extra attack and is not intended to stack with haste, the description explicitly says so, such as Blessing of Fervor from the APG. (There were several such items/spells in 3.5, but few thus far in Pathfinder.)
Since Ki strike does not mention haste, I would let it stack.
I think the "similar effects" wording was an attempt at future compatibility, for when later sources introduced additional ways (such as Blessing of Fervor) to gain an additional attack.
What about something like medusa's strike? That gives extra attacks. Would it stack? I personally believe that they all would stack as ki is not a similar effect to haste, it is supernatural where haste is spell like in origin.
What about something like medusa's strike? That gives extra attacks. Would it stack? I personally believe that they all would stack as ki is not a similar effect to haste, it is supernatural where haste is spell like in origin.
Medusa's wrath is against a hindered foe. Haste, speed weapons, and so on don't have any special conditions.
@ the OP: As for the Ki point I think it should stack.
Reasoning: Haste, and speed weapons are always on abilities. If you kept letting such abilities work together you can get a ridiculous number of extra attacks. Using a ki point gets you one extra attack for that one ki point. It is not like you spend one ki point and get extra attacks for the rest of the fight.
We're mainly using the 'similar effects" clause in haste. Fully considering how that is going beyond the standard 'stacking' rules, do you still disagree?
Edit: Hmm... I guess I'm wrong. I hadn't seen the other two replies.
I did a couple of flip-flops, but now I'm back on the side of thinking it should stack. As wraithstrike pointed out, it is a point spent per strike, which is different than an effect that allows you to speed up for a specific duration. Also, it doesn't say anything in the Ki description suggesting that this is due to the blows being quickened.
Since neither the haste spell or Ki strike forbid it, and the fact that it is a different type of bonus, I would read it as if it said, "similar type of effects", and allow the extra blow.
Assuming one of designers hasn't already said they don't stack while I was writing this. :)
Yeah I'd be inclined to let it stack too.
My interpretation is that haste and other magical extra attacks don't stack; I come to this conclusion because haste is fairly obviously intended to stack with things like Rapid Shot, but all magic that provides extra attacks occupies the same "design space".
Ki strike is, in fact, a magical source of extra attacks (it's a Supernatural Ability), and thus it does not stack. IMO.
@ the OP: As for the Ki point I think it should stack.
Reasoning: Haste, and speed weapons are always on abilities.
Since when did haste get a duration of Permanent, Instantaneous, or even 1 hour per level? Last time I checked, it had an extremely short duration (1 round per level).
@ the OP: As for the Ki point I think it should stack.
Reasoning: Haste, and speed weapons are always on abilities. If you kept letting such abilities work together you can get a ridiculous number of extra attacks.
Agreed. Like 2 speed weapons.
Using a ki point gets you one extra attack for that one ki point. It is not like you spend one ki point and get extra attacks for the rest of the fight.
I'm confused. So you're reasoning is that because it's only one extra attack, it's ok?
Either it's legit in principle or its not.
A monk flurrying with 2 speed kama and going 'nova' with extra ki attacks comes to mind.
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First off, you can only take advantage of one speed weapon because it is an identical effect and therefore does not stack. Also, even if that was his reasoning (which i doubt) then was is the worst thing that would happen? A monk that does several additional attacks at a lowered +hit with the piddly damage a monk can do with melee weapons? I wouldn't exactly call that a nova so much as a soap bubble.
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding.
Worth noting the bolded part. If the monk is fighting unarmed, by RAW, he doesn't get an extra attack since he has no weapons.
Since when did haste get a duration of Permanent, Instantaneous, or even 1 hour per level? Last time I checked, it had an extremely short duration (1 round per level).
@ the OP: As for the Ki point I think it should stack.
Reasoning: Haste, and speed weapons are always on abilities.
Bad wording on my part, and I don't know how to say it better at the moment. I am trying to say it in such as way that it is clear(my intent), but the words are escaping me.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Bad wording on my part, and I don't know how to say it better at the moment. I am trying to say it in such as way that it is clear(my intent), but the words are escaping me.
I think what Wraithstrike is trying to say is that as long as the spell is in effect, any full attack action can get the extra attack. If you had a Wizard with, say, a wand of Haste casing the spell on you every time it ran out, you'd keep getting the extra attacks. Whereas with a Ki strike, you can only make the extra attack as many times as you have Ki points. Which isn't that many times per day (1/2 monk level + WIS mod).
I think the argument definitely centers on whether that use of Ki is a "Similar effect" to that of a Haste spell.
Reasons it is similar:
- It gives an extra attack at the character's highest BAB when making a full attack.
- It is a magical effect (as opposed to something like Flurry of Blows or Rapid Shot).
Reasons it's different:
- It's limited to a number of times per day equal to the Monk's available Ki.
- It's a Supernatural ability, as opposed to a spell effect.
- It only works when a Monk is doing a Flurry of Blows.
First off, you can only take advantage of one speed weapon because it is an identical effect and therefore does not stack. Also, even if that was his reasoning (which i doubt) then was is the worst thing that would happen? A monk that does several additional attacks at a lowered +hit with the piddly damage a monk can do with melee weapons? I wouldn't exactly call that a nova so much as a soap bubble.
Where are you getting a lowered +hit? Once the Monk hits 5th level his 1st attacks of a flurry are the same as a non-flurry, and actually end up exceeding his base. Haste adds bonuses to hit. Ki Strike just adds an attack and doesn't affect the to-hit bonus. Speed weapons don't take anything away (not to mention they'll be at least +1) and presumably we're using Monk weapons here so we use the Flurry attack bonuses.
I used to be (one of the few) who felt that a "similar effect" was basically anything that added an additional attack based on sheer speed, or from a magical source. Rapid Shot, Ki Strike, and obviously Speed and Haste did not stack with each other. Two Weapon Fighting (and by extension, flurry) was fine because you weren't necessarily attacking faster, just more often (a fine line). Medusa's Wrath was a special exception that is almost purpose-designed for the Monk, so I'd feel bad taking that away. With the weight of the boards against me though, I'd probably allow all of the combinations above with the exception of Speed+Haste.
Following that logic, I'd also allow someone TWFing with two speed weapons to have two additional attacks, one with each hand. I mean, that's the equivilent of at least two +4 weapons. If someone wants to make that much of an investment, why not? TWF has already proven to be behind the curve as far as DPR goes, why not give it a little love?
If you had a Wizard with, say, a wand of Haste casing the spell on you every time it ran out, you'd keep getting the extra attacks. Whereas with a Ki strike, you can only make the extra attack as many times as you have Ki points.
And with the wand, you can only make the extra attack 5 times per charge of the wand (plus standard action of the wizard). Ditto with spells. Just because Ki strike has a duration of 1 round and haste has a duration of 1 round per level doesn't mean they aren't the same sort of effect.
Bad wording on my part, and I don't know how to say it better at the moment. I am trying to say it in such as way that it is clear(my intent), but the words are escaping me.I think what Wraithstrike is trying to say is that as long as the spell is in effect, any full attack action can get the extra attack. If you had a Wizard with, say, a wand of Haste casing the spell on you every time it ran out, you'd keep getting the extra attacks. Whereas with a Ki strike, you can only make the extra attack as many times as you have Ki points. Which isn't that many times per day (1/2 monk level + WIS mod).
I think the argument definitely centers on whether that use of Ki is a "Similar effect" to that of a Haste spell.
Reasons it is similar:
- It gives an extra attack at the character's highest BAB when making a full attack.
- It is a magical effect (as opposed to something like Flurry of Blows or Rapid Shot).
Reasons it's different:
- It's limited to a number of times per day equal to the Monk's available Ki.
- It's a Supernatural ability, as opposed to a spell effect.
- It only works when a Monk is doing a Flurry of Blows.
That is basically it. Mostly the 1st and 3rd points about the limitations bases on flurries and ki points. Haste does not have such conditions. It is basically always on for as along as the spell last anyway.
I do understand the other side though.
Except that specifically MONKs are treated as armed while unarmed (or whichever is more beneficial to them), also monks can make their full unarmed attack string while holding a weapon with other body parts. So while being unarmed as a monk isn't the same as "holding" a weapon at that point you're just arguing semantics.When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding.Worth noting the bolded part. If the monk is fighting unarmed, by RAW, he doesn't get an extra attack since he has no weapons.
There has to be a reason for the use of "holding" versus the much more standard "wielding", though. You'd be correct in citing the armed provision for Monks' Unarmed Strikes if the spell said "any weapon he is wielding", but it doesn't. Furthermore, despite the ability saying that Unarmed Strikes count as both natural and manufactured weapons, Paizo has ruled against that more than once in specific circumstances (for example, you cannot cast greater magic weapon on a Monk's Unarmed Strike).
By spending 1 point from his ki pool, a monk can make one additional attack at his highest attack bonus when making a flurry of blows attack. In addition, he can spend 1 point to increase his speed by 20 feet for 1 round. Finally, a monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round. Each of these powers is activated as a swift action. A monk gains additional powers that consume points from his ki pool as he gains levels.
- Its not listed as a haste effect. It doesn't mention as haste, or even that the monk is moving faster. It DOES the same thing as a haste spell, but it does not appear to be from a similar source: it is an untyped extra ability so it should stack.
Furthermore, despite the ability saying that Unarmed Strikes count as both natural and manufactured weapons, Paizo has ruled against that more than once in specific circumstances (for example, you cannot cast greater magic weapon on a Monk's Unarmed Strike).
Um.. yes you can. Where have you seen otherwise? (That's practically the sole purpose of the "natural and manufactured" clarification.)
I don't mean to sidetrack the productive discussion. On that, I'm generally in favor of letting it stack, as it's using a precious monk resource that can also be used for other things. If Ki points were *only* extra attacks, I'd be less inclined to allow it actually. As another said, I very much understand the counter argument (far too many things grant extra attacks without being clear on this).
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qk0
Monk: Does the extra attack from spending ki as part of a flurry of blows stack with the extra attack from haste?
Yes. The extra attack described in the ki pool ability doesn't say it works like haste, nor does it say that it doesn't stack with haste, so the monk would get two additional attacks (one from spending a ki point as part of a flurry, one from haste).
posted April 2013
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http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qk0
Monk: Does the extra attack from spending ki as part of a flurry of blows stack with the extra attack from haste?
Yes. The extra attack described in the ki pool ability doesn't say it works like haste, nor does it say that it doesn't stack with haste, so the monk would get two additional attacks (one from spending a ki point as part of a flurry, one from haste).
posted April 2013
Ah yes, the FAQ that was made three years after the thread that was made 7 years ago. Why would they be unaware of that?
Valid addition, though, since anyone who finds this thread will now be able to see what the correct answer was.