Create Water on a Fire Elemental

[Tamago]

So my party had a fight with a Fire Elemental last session, and the party Druid what is, in retrospect, a pretty obvious thing -- she cast Create Water directly above the creature.

I can't seem to find a rule for what happens in this case. At the time, I ruled that it did 1d6 + caster level damage. But does anyone have any more definitive rule on the subject?

Thanks!

[LazarX]

It produces a bunch of steam for perhaps entertaining but no effect.

Given that's a cantrip level spell I'd say a ranged touch to hit with 1-2 damage no save. The spell should NOT be more effective than a Ray of Frost.

And no there is no definitive rule, I'm ruling on the fact that it is a zero level spell be my guide.

[James Risner]

Tamago wrote:

cast Create Water directly above the creature.

I can't seem to find a rule for what happens in this case. At the time, I ruled that it did 1d6 + caster level damage. But does anyone have any more definitive rule on the subject?

There is no rule, but since the spell didn't (I assume) cover the situation then going with either a reflex to avoid all the damage or making the PC make an attack roll (maybe a touch attack) to deal some damage (like 1d6+caster level) would be what other similar rules would suggest.

There seems to be a lot of PC's that desire using non-combat spells as combat spells in rare situations like this. While the creativity is to be admired, to prevent accidental imbalanced situations I'd recommend just turning it into a spell/effect that is similar but is a damaging. I would have used "holy water" effect (1d6) and just made it a touch attack roll.

Edit: But considering it is a 0 level spell and LazarX makes a great point. It shouldn't be better than Ray of Frost. I simply forgot about Ray of Frost when I wrote this post.

[Lord Magus]

As it is a rather creature-specific effect, not a general damage spell like Ray of Frost, I'd say 1d6 (as per Disrupt Undead).

[Pathos]

I'm thinking 1d6 with a Fort save to prevent from being staggered for 1 round. A cloud of steam/vapor would also be possible too, perhaps with a radius double the size of the elemental (i.e. a Huge elemental would create a 30' radius cloud of steam).

[Jadeite]

Why should a fire elemental be vulnerable to water? It's not that a water elemental would deal extra damage against them and they are made out of water. Likewise, a fire elemental could dive without taking any damage.

[Pinky's Brain]

Jadeite is right, a fire elemental is vulnerable to cold ... not water.

I'd say let it create a 10 feet radius fog cloud (as the spell) around the fire elemental (if it's larger than large the cloud would be just on one side of it). So it doesn't just do nothing.

[Pathos]

AT the same, though, Fire Elementals cannot enter water or any other nonflammable liquid. While a Water Element's touch can put out non magical fire and can even dispel magical fires as with a Dispel Magic.

Over all, water has the upper hand here.

[LazarX]

Lord Magus wrote:

As it is a rather creature-specific effect, not a general damage spell like Ray of Frost, I'd say 1d6 (as per Disrupt Undead).

It's not a damage spell AT ALL. it was never intended to be one. Ray of Frost is a COLD spell which targets the vulernability of fire type creatures. Create Water does not share that subtype.

Just to show how silly this is. your average character is made of 98 percent water. Are you going to rule that the elemental takes damage when it strikes you?

[hogarth]

LazarX wrote:

Just to show how silly this is. your average character is made of 98 percent water. Are you going to rule that the elemental takes damage when it strikes you?

If you spilled several gallons of blood on the elemental (a la Create Water), maybe.

I think treating it like Acid Splash or Disrupt Undead is a good decision.

[Brandon Tomlinson]

At best the argument is 'water puts out fire'. I can see that. So just convert the spell into acid splash effectively. As a general rule, don't let 'cool idea spells' be more effective than another spell of the same level.

[Tamago]

Thank you all for your input and ideas!

First off, I think that Disrupt Undead is a better basis for discussion than Ray of Frost, since it's more specific.

Pathos had some interesting ideas as well, but I think that they might be getting a bit *too* powerful.

I think that 1d6 + CL damage is appropriate. A straight 1d6 is probably more "by the book", but I think the extra few points are worth it, both because it's creative and because higher-level casters generate a lot more water (2 gallons/level more!) than low-level ones. And by the time that they're high enough level for the extra points to become significant, they will have much better spells available to deal with such an enemy.

I agree that either a touch attack or a Reflex save is warranted, though. Either one will be hard to make, since Fire Elementals have high Reflex and touch ACs. Any thoughts on which would make more sense?

[jtokay]

The way Create Water is worded, it sounds like it’s more of an area type of spell, especially if you’re trying to use it as an attack. So, Reflex save would be my call, if you’re going to allow it.

[Spes Magna Mark]

LazarX wrote:

Just to show how silly this is. your average character is made of 98 percent water.

Suddenly I reminded of the fact that 77.8% of statistics are made up on the spot.

[Dobneygrum]

The create water spell says, "Water can be created in an area as small as will actually contain the liquid, or in an area three times as large—possibly creating a downpour or filling many small receptacles."

So... unless the druid is holding a receptacle above the creature, I don't think it would work. Usually, most people wave this rule, but if you are using it as a weapon (not its intention) it should be used as written. Also, this isn't magical water, it's just water. Not really a match for a creature that is continually producing fire.

The closest analogy is using Light on undead... it doesn't do anything accept annoy them.

[Lyrax]

I wait for the player to describe how the water is being created before I tell them what roll will be made.

Big splash of water aimed at the fire creature - touch attack

Big splash of water summoned from the sky - reflex save

Downpour of water on the fire creature's square - fort save

You could also suppress the fire elemental's 'burn' ability for a round or two (either instead of dealing damage, or in addition to a little damage).

[ZappoHisbane]

I don't know, I think Ray of Frost is your 0-level spell of choice in this case, and I don't think that Create Water would do anything except make a quickly-disappating cloud of steam. Perhaps a fort save to avoid the same effect of either Flare or Daze (including the HD limit), or a one-round Fog Cloud spell maybe. I don't think it should do any actual damage however.

Be mindful of the precendent that Create Water doing damage creates. Would a summoned Water Elemental deal extra damage with it's Slam attacks (since they're made with limbs of water)? Would a natural rainstorm, or one created by a Druid casting Control Weather deal damage? If it's a Small Elemental, is dumping my waterskin over its head enough? What if I've got a full bladder?

I think you should reward the creative thinking, but I would never allow a non-damaging spell the chance to directly harm (and by extension, potentially kill) a creature.

[BigNorseWolf]

So... unless the druid is holding a receptacle above the creature, I don't think it would work. Usually, most people wave this rule

I don't know what you're reading into that that would be problematic, or what rule people are waiving. Nothing in that rule even hints at requiring a bucket: it can be an 8 gallon mass in an 8 gallon bucket, and 8 gallon pocket of air, or a 24 gallon downpour.

[Dobneygrum]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

So... unless the druid is holding a receptacle above the creature, I don't think it would work. Usually, most people wave this rule

I don't know what you're reading into that that would be problematic, or what rule people are waiving. Nothing in that rule even hints at requiring a bucket: it can be an 8 gallon mass in an 8 gallon bucket, and 8 gallon pocket of air, or a 24 gallon downpour.

It says an area "up to 3 times larger". This seems to suggest that you can't just create it in the middle of a space that is far bigger. I just re-read it though, and you are right, it doesn't say anything about a container. I don't know where I got the idea it did. Oh well.

[Bertious]

What about treating it as a non damaging 0 level like flare or daze? i.e. the cloud of steam briefly distracts it but has no lasting effect.