Item of Resistance (usually a cloak)
Primary State Booster (belt, headband, gloves, etc)
Primary Defense (armor or bracers)
Booster Book (this gives an innate stat bonus)
Ring of Protection
Amulet of Natural Armor
Apparently the "big six" are so utterly mandatory that people who agree that they are mandatory can't even come to a full agreement on what the six items are.
Weapon
Armor
Cloak of Resistance
Stat-enhancing Item (Belt of Giant's Strength, Headband of Vast Int)
Ring of Protection
Amulet of Natural Armor
Here's where the term was popularized by Andy Collins. It corresponds to meatrace's list.
poppycock
Really dude? Really? I expected better from an Old One.
The vast majority of the players will choose the ring of protection +5.I guess that's my fundamental problem. I don't plan to allow my characters to "choose" what magic items they get or can purchase. The ubiquitous video game magic item vendor/Diagon Alley premise just doesn't fit in with what I envision.
Now—with that being said—some might say I deserve a "you should be playing 2E" comment, but I really like Pathfinder and the tons of support material available from Paizo, 3rd party publishers and the entire 3.5 back catalog. With some suggestions in other threads and my own ideas, I'm confident I can do away with the Big 6 in a more meaningful way to the characters.
If you look here http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/houseRules/removingNecessaryMagicItemsForAMoreHeroicFeel&page=3#100
there is a thread (i linked my favorite of them) with all sorts of suggestions for internalizing those 'needed' big six bonuses to various degrees. Like i said the specific post im linking is my favorite. There is a pretty sizable argument at the beggining, but after that people talk about solutions.
poppycockReally dude? Really? I expected better from an Old One.
Isn't that part of a Primordial Chaos Gods schtick, to defy expectations?
If you look here http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/houseRules/removingNecessaryMagicItemsForAMoreHeroicFeel&page=3#100
Thank you. I missed this thread while collecting information. Lots of good stuff here!
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Weapon
Armor
Cloak of Resistance
Stat-enhancing Item (Belt of Giant's Strength, Headband of Vast Int)
Ring of Protection
Amulet of Natural ArmorThese are items that the system assumes you have at a certain degree of enhancement to determine how challenging monsters are for physical combatants.
I have never heard of the big 6, but from my own experience playing Crimson Throne, my fighter by the end of the campaign had all 6. They are:
- +1 Holy Greataxe with enhancement gem
- +3 Celestial Full Plate
- Cloack of Resistance +5
- Belt of Giant Str +6
- Ring of Protection +5
- Amulet of Natural Armor +3
Everything but the full plate I had to pay in full price (got armor for half price as loot) and they sucked up 98% of all my treasure. Were they worth it? Hell yes. That fighter was definitely one of the central pillars of the party.
Are they necessary? I don't think they all are, especially for dedicated squishy spellcasters. The other central pillar of my party, a wizard, only had a Headband of Intellect +6 and some Bracer of Armor from the list. He still kicked ass. Plus, I thought AC don't scale as well vs. the to hit modifiers. For spellcasters, wouldn't they benefit more from spells such as mirror image, greater invisibility, fly, and a variety of other spells?
A combat character hitting, at best, 50% of the time is pretty awful.
Well, that's a personal value judgment, isn't it? That may seem low to you, but others might find that about right. I'm not sure that PF takes a stand either way.
Plus, you can get at least another +2 with readily available feats netting you a 60% chance to hit without even cracking the Big 6 other than a masterwork weapon. Getting some part of the Big 6 can certainly make this stuff easier, but, as we've said, there's no hard and fast about what level is deemed necessary.
Picking a chance to hit that seems optimal in keeping player interest, challenging players, and not frustrating them has a bit of art to it. Is there a specific level of chance that's appropriate? Based on whose expectations? Frankly, having come out of 1e/2e, being able to hit the equivalent of a -7 AC 50% of the time with a 12th level rogue is pretty nice. 3e/PF made it a bit easier by moving the rogue up the hit chart a little, but a lot comes from expectations.
The big six?
Character sheet
Players
DM
Pencil
Dice
Soda
That's about it.
Tier Fishy!
Full Casters obviously can go without a dedicated weapon unless they are war priest (divine power + righteous might martial builds). Full casters can generally spend the resources that would otherwise go to a weapon on utility magic items such as wands or more likely spend that money on metamagic rods.
Clerics can often get by without a resistance item to boost saves since they have decent fortitude saves and great will saves (reflex isn't nearly as critical), most other casters are going to want their saves decent so that they can hopefully avoid getting SoSed by an opposition caster.
I think the AC boosters (Armor + Natural Armor + Deflection) was more of an issue in the past where martial characters could go crazy with power attack/shock trooper but having a lower AC than is suggested for your level does increase the average damage taken a pretty decent amount anyway. If you are squishy it helps having at least some of those iteratives miss whether it's through AC or miss % spells.
Most people would indicate the reduced reliance on the big 6 as a reason why low magic campaigns hamper martial characters more than casters. If you assume that casters are already more powerful after a certain level unbalancing the relationship further can heighten tensions between casters and non casters in many groups.
Thankyou all for these explanations. I daresay the next question could possibly be misinterpreted so for clarity let me preface it with: I understand that they are not mandatory and that every character won't get every item. Further that it is more to provide some kind of 'benchmark' designers/DMs/players can measure things by rather than a 'goal to aim for'.
Having said that, is there also an assumption/understanding as to how rapidly you'll pick them up? Or what levels correspond to what bonuses? Something like: you're 'expected' to have a +1 of each at level 4, +2 of each at level 8,...+5 of each at level 20 or similar?
EDIT: My reason for asking is that my insular group has been playing together for twenty-thirty years (a variety of systems but with little input from other groups) consequently we are oblivious to issues like this and nobody ever bothers sifting through options to work out what is most effective. We pretty much just choose whatever we feel like at the time more on whim or a desire to try something new than anything else.
We have noticed that modules at low levels work fine, but once we get to eighth level or so, we often run into something within the adventure which just seems impossible for us to deal with. I suspect it's ignorance of things like the big six which is causing that problem. (Together with a more broad ignorance of optimal choices within the rules - none of us had ever noticed spells like grease, glitterdust, whoever's black tentacles(?) and so forth - then I came here and it seemed like these were all 'must haves' as well.
Having said that, is there also an assumption/understanding as to how rapidly you'll pick them up? Or what levels correspond to what bonuses? Something like: you're 'expected' to have a +1 of each at level 4, +2 of each at level 8,...+5 of each at level 20 or similar?
I've never seen anything quite that explicit in the rules.
But if you look at the monster creation rules, you can get some hints. For instance, an average monster's CR goes up by 1 point per CR increase, except it goes up by 2 points at CR 2, CR 4, CR 9, CR 12 and CR 19. So each of those levels might correspond to an additional +1 weapon bonus or a +2 attribute bonus.
Similarly, you can roughly judge by the wealth by level guidelines, if you assume that a PC will use 30% on a weapon, 30% on stat boosters, 20% on armor, etc. (All percentages totally made up by me.)
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Thankyou all for these explanations. I daresay the next question could possibly be misinterpreted so for clarity let me preface it with: I understand that they are not mandatory and that every character won't get every item. Further that it is more to provide some kind of 'benchmark' designers/DMs/players can measure things by rather than a 'goal to aim for'.
Having said that, is there also an assumption/understanding as to how rapidly you'll pick them up? Or what levels correspond to what bonuses? Something like: you're 'expected' to have a +1 of each at level 4, +2 of each at level 8,...+5 of each at level 20 or similar?
I don't remember the level, but I can tell how the order in which I got my big 6 in my Crimson Throne experience:
1. Cloak of Resistance +5 (I intentionally made this choice b/c I believe a high-dmg PC with low will-save will be running from fear at best and dominatd at worst)
2. +1 Holy Greataxe with enhancement gem
3. Belt of Giant Str +6
4. +3 Celestial Full Plate (I was using a adamantine full plate before)
5. Ring of Protection +5
6. Amulet of Natural Armor +3 (ran out of money, otherwise would have gotten +5)
I think it's hard to map out when certain equipment will be picked up. I recommend looking at the Wealth by Character LvL table and calculate from the amount given what gear you would be able to afford.
I should mention that, to my disappointment, the party only found 1 stat boosting item in the entire campaign that gives more than a +2 (and it's for CON for god sake). Conversely, gloves of dex +2 and cloak of resist +2 were in such an abundance that we used them for doorstops and paper weights.
Thankyou all for these explanations. I daresay the next question could possibly be misinterpreted so for clarity let me preface it with: I understand that they are not mandatory and that every character won't get every item. Further that it is more to provide some kind of 'benchmark' designers/DMs/players can measure things by rather than a 'goal to aim for'.
Having said that, is there also an assumption/understanding as to how rapidly you'll pick them up? Or what levels correspond to what bonuses? Something like: you're 'expected' to have a +1 of each at level 4, +2 of each at level 8,...+5 of each at level 20 or similar?
It's never really explicitly spelled out but you can infer from the generic monster generation guidelines what the average opponent (monster or NPC) should have for a bonus at a given level.
Keep in mind that 1 PC of level X should be roughly comparable to an encounter of level X.
For instance a PC of level 10 should be comparable to a CR 10 monster or foe. That means that the PC should have an AC of 24, have an attack bonus of +18 (if a martial character) and do 45 damage per round. If the PC is a caster his save DCs should be roughly 19. Good saves should be 13, bad saves should be 9.
A fighter with no magic items is probably going to have a slightly deficient AC even with sword and board, slightly better attack bonus, roughly comparable average damage and lower saves (a big concern).
A higher than average point buy can remove some of the needs to magic items (because stat boosters to boost damage and saves are less critical) but you still have issues with abilities like DR that can really be problematic for martial PCs without magic weapons.
Meeting AC, Saves, and DPR threshholds are probably the most critical things. As long as PCs are within a fairly tight range of average then they should challenged by appropriate foes.
Well, that's a personal value judgment, isn't it? That may seem low to you, but others might find that about right. I'm not sure that PF takes a stand either way.
A combat character hitting, at best, 50% of the time is pretty awful.
That is not a personal value judgement, that is simple arithmetic. The dragon has DR 5/Magic and you don't have a magic weapon. In the BEST POSSIBLE SCENARIO you hit 50% of the time...for 1d6+3+6d6 (27) damage or 22 after DR. It has 172 HP. You have to go toe-to-toe with it for 16 rounds to kill it if you're doing 11 DPR. You can't go 1. Something has got to give somewhere.
It comes back to my 3 possibilities. Your DM is fudging to keep you alive, you have all the right equipment to survive, or you fight only things far below your weight. Also, PF does take a stand, because if you don't have this equipment you DIE. It sucks, I'm with you there, it's part of the game that I openly dislike, but that's the way it is.
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It seems to me that a lot of this arguement comes from how the WAY the game is played has changed over the years and editions.In earlier times that dragon would have killed the whole party....but, you were expected to run away, PREPARE for the fight and return. Or use scrying and roleplaying (gather info skills didnt exsist) to garner information about where you were going and what was there. The unprepared party died. The kick in the door mentality was fun, but ultimatly fatal.
Now it seems your expected to just survive and defeat any encounter you come across, and if you cant then its broken somehow.Now in light of that I allow my players to acquire the big 6 items and more, but thats because they like to play that way. But i miss the learning experience the game use to have. You learned to be more cautious because it was, well deadly not to be. And if you didnt have the big 6 you figured out a way to win, by thinking and roleplaying.AND using lotsa teamwork.
Just my 2cp.
Play what you like, its all about fun.
Yeah one of Mr. Fishy's favorite games was the 1st level party is invited to dinner with a local noble. Around midnight the party awaken to sounds of fighting and screaming. The manor we're stay in has a vampire [2nd vampires] nest under it and we're dinner. The point of the adventure was to win it was to not die. Mr. Fishy escaped. Mr. Fishy learned fast to fight like a lion and run like a cheetah.
Mr. Fishy hates that DM.
LoL. Mr Fishy cracks me up.
( sorry for thread jack)
Mr. Fishy likes attention =)
Mr. Fishy likes attention =)LoL. Mr Fishy cracks me up.
( sorry for thread jack)
I think Mr Fishy just made a serious slip and revealed himself not to be a true gamer. I mean, how can you seriously put together a list of the big six without including pizza? ;-)
I think it's absolutely ridiculous that by nature of encounter design, players are at a severe disadvantage without a plethora of specific magic items. Completely takes away the fascination of receiving something special when you're waiting to fill that missing "big six" slot every session.
Really? The fact that a game laden down with magic items is designed to assume that players use magic items is ridiculous? Really?
Why do you people play these games? Why?
Item of Resistance (usually a cloak)
Primary State Booster (belt, headband, gloves, etc)
Primary Defense (armor or bracers)
Booster Book (this gives an innate stat bonus)
Ring of Protection
Amulet of Natural Armor
Apparently the "big six" are so utterly mandatory that people who agree that they are mandatory can't even come to a full agreement on what the six items are.
Weapon
Armor
Cloak of Resistance
Stat-enhancing Item (Belt of Giant's Strength, Headband of Vast Int)
Ring of Protection
Amulet of Natural Armor
In an attempt to be high and mighty about our opinions of the system, let's all ignore the fact that requirements for physical combatants and casters differ at the exact point highlighted.
I use the chapter 6 of WoTC's magic item compendium for my games. It breaks down what magic items are expected to be had by a character very well, alot of useful information that people skip over since it is between the magic item descriptions and the price lists in the appendix.
Here is a chart of what magic items by level similar to what was done it 4E.
Item Market Price
Level Range (gp) Sample Items
1/2 1–50 potion or scroll (1st-level spell)
1st 51–150 masterwork armor, scroll (2nd-level spell)
2nd 151–400 masterwork weapon
3rd 401–800 wand (1st-level spell)
4th 801–1,300 +1 armor
5th 1,301–1,800 brooch of shielding, full plate armor
6th 1,801–2,300 +1 weapon
7th 2,301–3,000 cloak of elvenkind
8th 3,001–4,000 +2 armor, gauntlets of ogre power
9th 4,001–5,000 wand (2nd-level spell)
10th 5,001–6,500 boots of striding and springing
11th 6,501–8,000 +2 weapon
12th 8,001–10,000 +3 armor
13th 10,001–13,000 boots of speed
14th 13,001–18,000 +3 weapon, +4 armor, gloves of Dexterity +4
15th 18,001–25,000 +5 armor
16th 25,001–35,000 +4 weapon
17th 35,001–48,000 amulet of health +6
18th 48,001–64,000 +5 weapon
19th 64,001–80,000 robe of the archmagi
20th 80,001–100,000 amulet of mighty fists +4
21th 100,001–120,000 robe of eyes
22th 120,001–140,000 holy avenger
23th 140,001–160,000 efreeti bottle
24th 160,001–180,000 staff of passage
25th 180,001–200,000 +5 vorpal weapon
26th 200,001–220,000 staff of power
By using this as a guide line it helps keep my game in balance not only with expected wealth by level but also expected items by level. My current campaign is Council of Thieves, the party just hit 9th level and yes they all have the big 6 because they are needed to compete with the encounters they are facing.
I think it's absolutely ridiculous that by nature of encounter design, players are at a severe disadvantage without a plethora of specific magic items. Completely takes away the fascination of receiving something special when you're waiting to fill that missing "big six" slot every session.Really? The fact that a game laden down with magic items is designed to assume that players use magic items is ridiculous? Really?
Why do you people play these games? Why?
I think the word you might have have missed in neverminding's post is 'specific'. Including that word in your post gives us:
Really? The fact that a game laden down with magic items is designed to assume that players need to use a very small subset of those magic items is ridiculous? Really?
I won't furnish an answer to that, as YMMV.
As an aside, was the closing rhetorical question really necessary? Or was it not rhetorical?
I use the chapter 6 of WoTC's magic item compendium for my games. It breaks down what magic items are expected to be had by a character very well, a lot of useful information that people skip over since it is between the magic item descriptions and the price lists in the appendix.
Here is a chart of what magic items by level similar to what was done it 4E.
Item Market Price
Level Range (gp) Sample Items
1/2 1–50 potion or scroll (1st-level spell)
1st 51–150 masterwork armor, scroll (2nd-level spell)
2nd 151–400 masterwork weapon
3rd 401–800 wand (1st-level spell)
4th 801–1,300 +1 armor
5th 1,301–1,800 brooch of shielding, full plate armor
6th 1,801–2,300 +1 weapon
I would hope that a party would have at least one magic weapon before 6th level (in my experience, anyways).
I've been DMing since 1978 and this is the first time I ever heard of the Big Six!
You've never heard of magic weapons and armor and rings of protection before? You must run one seriously bad-ass campaign! ;-)
(Seriously, the term only dates back to 2007.)
I would hope that a party would have at least one magic weapon before 6th level (in my experience, anyways).
I should have mentioned that it is not hard and fast but a general guide line the chapter talks about how each PC should have one or two items a few levels higher than the list recommends. I normally give out +1 magic weapon to the fighter types about the end of second or start of third level for example.
It seems to me that a lot of this arguement comes from how the WAY the game is played has changed over the years and editions.
I think it's fair to say that, in his attempt to keep things under control, Gygax tightened the screws on magic items just a little too much. As a result, the pendulum has swung very far in the other direction, a la 3x.
I think there has to be a middle ground.
In earlier times that dragon would have killed the whole party....but, you were expected to run away, PREPARE for the fight and return.
This hasn't changed. The unprepared party, with toys, isn't always a shoe-in for success.
Now it seems your expected to just survive and defeat any encounter you come across, and if you cant then its broken somehow.
That may be true of some gamers, I certainly don't think it's the prevailing attitude.
Now in light of that I allow my players to acquire the big 6 items and more, but thats because they like to play that way. But i miss the learning experience the game use to have. You learned to be more cautious because it was, well deadly not to be. And if you didnt have the big 6 you figured out a way to win, by thinking and roleplaying.AND using lotsa teamwork.
You can still play that way; the Big Six should never mean "we always win, no one can stand before us!" Where's the fun in that?
Play what you like, its all about fun.
Yessir, I agree with this 100%
I would hope that a party would have at least one magic weapon before 6th level (in my experience, anyways).
I can certainly understand that but with the paladin weapon bond, smite ignores DR, inquisitor ignores dr magic, ki strike magic and the spells to temporarily make attacks magic available before this level there are ways around this for sure. I can see games(provided the GM has told the players this is how magic items is gonna run) where these considerations become very important resource managment issues. Does the cleric/sorc/wiz/etc. cast magic weapon, align weapon, magic fang or greater magic weapon at those levels limiting his available spell slots but providing a party member or 2 with better ability to damage BBET.
Why do you people play these games? Why?
Mr. Fishy play to piss you off.
Mr. Fishy likes attention =)LoL. Mr Fishy cracks me up.
( sorry for thread jack)
Mr. Fishy Fan Club...just sayin' >bubble< shameless attention whore.
The Big Six tend to not exist in my games as specific items.
The big six to me are To Hit, Damage, AC, Saves, Stats, and other defense/offense.
Using the rules as given today those translate into 6 magic items that allow to acquire these the easiest. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Quite often in my games a Belt of giant strength might be amulet or gloves instead. Like why does it have to be a belt? I've had magic fountains that grant a +4 to strength as an enhancement bonus only usable one time of course. Lots of stuff like that.
The Big Six tend to not exist in my games as specific items.
The big six to me are To Hit, Damage, AC, Saves, Stats, and other defense/offense.
Using the rules as given today those translate into 6 magic items that allow to acquire these the easiest. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Quite often in my games a Belt of giant strength might be amulet or gloves instead. Like why does it have to be a belt? I've had magic fountains that grant a +4 to strength as an enhancement bonus only usable one time of course. Lots of stuff like that.
Easy answer is it doesn't have to be a belt/gauntlet/earing/hat/rubber chicken. BUT a sizable potion of play out there is in PF Society play, where the game runs RAW. Its easy in home games for the GM to hand-wave specifics, but in society play there is a lot of talk about the slots the big six take up and whether any other item is worth dropping that cloak of protection, etc. This can only really be fixed by creative published in-game rewards.
I think one of the points Andy Collins makes in his little editorial there is that just having a +5 to saves is necessitated by the RAW balance of the game, but is boring as hell. That is part of the problem. Tons of neat items out there that no one uses because they are afraid to loose their resistance bonus or AC bonus. Combining those big six bonuses with flavorful items helps alleviate that.
For example, my GM has talked to us about amulets of natural armor all having a "side effect". If it was made from a Rhino's heart or something, perhaps it makes you quick to anger, or turns your hair sort of bristly. Presto chango! Bland AC item now has flavor. Some items might have more than one related ability. An amulet of natural armor made from a red dragon's scale might also give you 5 fire resistance, and cause you to have a fiery red streak of hair.
The other route to go is to make some of the big six slotless. Or make them into inherent bonuses achieved through special training or rituals. You can still make them cost gp, to balance them with WBL that way as well.
edit- another more common method of avoiding big 6 problems is to not use CR to balance your games and to run monsters using common sense, calculating your parties chances of survival. That method is more work for the DM but all non-standard campaigns are (low magic, alas, being non standard).
Or Gods forbid make it part of leveling up... Grasp, choke, bubble, Damn Air.
If it so important then way is it not part of the character?
Or Gods forbid make it part of leveling up... Grasp, choke, bubble, Damn Air.
If it so important then way is it not part of the character?
Because of backward compatibility, and because the game is still evolving. It may be that at some point the big six will be so problematic and vilified that Paizo will want to rehash them, make them less important. But when the game was published these things were built in, and there were people who had established 3.5 character that worked with these bonuses.
funny, when i think of 6 must haves, my first thoughts are, at least for 3.5
Handy Haversack
Ring of Sustenance
Immovable Rod
Decanter of Endless Water
Goggles of Night
Portable Holehuh
You have an old style DM, don't you ...
Or Gods forbid make it part of leveling up... Grasp, choke, bubble, Damn Air.
If it so important then way is it not part of the character?
I agree, this is what could and should be done. It is simply a necessary part of leveling up that is external to the characters and thus DMs get all spazzy about the players feeling "entitled". But then the DM either has to fudge or they die. I'd rather play in a game where I was given the specific tools and allowed to interact/creatively solve problems on my own. I don't care whether those tools are part of a class/level structure or external to my character however. If it bugs people that the very idea of people having magic items breaks your sense of fantasy, then incorporate these things into level/class structure.
The vast majority of the players will choose the ring of protection +5.I guess that's my fundamental problem. I don't plan to allow my characters to "choose" what magic items they get or can purchase. The ubiquitous video game magic item vendor/Diagon Alley premise just doesn't fit in with what I envision.
Now—with that being said—some might say I deserve a "you should be playing 2E" comment, but I really like Pathfinder and the tons of support material available from Paizo, 3rd party publishers and the entire 3.5 back catalog. With some suggestions in other threads and my own ideas, I'm confident I can do away with the Big 6 in a more meaningful way to the characters.
Just give them 2 attribute bonuses every 4 levels or 1 attribute increase every 2 levels and allow them to add Base Reflex to AC. That takes care of the resistances, and keeps pace with normal magic item allotment.
It's not the items, it's the we can't win with out them that is annoy. If you have to have a gold idol to open a door its a key. If you need a weapon to fight "on your level" it's a pain. Your level should let you fight on your level.
It's not the items, it's the we can't win with out them that is annoy. If you have to have a gold idol to open a door its a key. If you need a weapon to fight "on your level" it's a pain. Your level should let you fight on your level.
No argument here. However it doesn't. In an ideal system (to me) just being level X makes you competent for appropriate challenges and every magic item you had would let you get closer and closer to nigh-imperviousness. The designers of 3.0 decided that, since people ARE going to have magic items and desire and seek them, that the level itself should only be about 75% of the way to being competent at level-appropriate challenges (combat or otherwise) and magic items should both make you whole as a character and eventually let you outlevel the curve so you can take on challenges greater than your level.
Mr. Fishy can take challenges above his level now it call tactics and teamwork.
Just sayin' look at Mr. Fishy's other post like the poison immune monk and his poison pimp slaps [contact poison touch att?]. There are ways, a portable hole is an instance pit trap/cage they fall in, you close and wait for your prisoner to take a nap [go sleepies].
If you need a weapon to fight "on your level" it's a pain. Your level should let you fight on your level.
But if magic weapons don't make you tougher, then you end up with a system where you use Excalibur as a backscratcher and Stormbringer as a potato peeler.
It's a quandary...
Excalibur and Stormbringer, good examples a pair of artifacts. Neither of which were of the standard magical must have items. Artifacts should be quest items to make you a king or a story item because you are last of your race and a Chaos Lord wants your soul.
Nice name drop.
Magic weapons don't have to be back-scratchers, if you take away the dependence on X, Y & Z items and throw them OUT of the GAME, or make them actual artifact level items, Headband of intellect +2 on top of the additional attribute bonuses I outlined before is actually worth something.
Throw out the item crafting feats.
Use Earthdawn style magic items that actually grow with the character. Not Legacy weapons book, that was an attempt to do Earthdawn style items gone wrong.
Give EVERY magic item an ego score...perhaps to make a magic item REQUIRES binging a powerful spirit in the item.
Lots of stuff that can be done.
I think it's absolutely ridiculous that by nature of encounter design, players are at a severe disadvantage without a plethora of specific magic items. Completely takes away the fascination of receiving something special when you're waiting to fill that missing "big six" slot every session.Really? The fact that a game laden down with magic items is designed to assume that players use magic items is ridiculous? Really?
Why do you people play these games? Why?
You could of at least included the entire quote. The point I was making has been re-iterated here enough: Magic-items are the easiest way to achieve the bonuses and enhancements "required" by the design of the game at certain higher levels (and yes, mostly for mêlée characters).
I play these games because I don't have my own company or staff to design one for me. It doesn't mean we have to swallow the medicine without asking "what is this" first? Which makes me really pleased to see all of the great discussion about transferring these bonuses to built-in character/level advancement and opening up The Big Six slots for more flavorful items instead of just The Something of +5 Saves (does it not strike you as "odd" that one has to wear an Amulet of NATURAL armor to be competitive?)
I'm an older player (cut my teeth on 2E when it first came out) and I loved playing and running games that were bereft of needing magic items to enjoy oneself. Now, after having these conversations, I see that's it entirely possible to do the same in PFRPG. And that's what makes this community awesome. Progress!
"Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible." - Frank Zappa.
I play these games because I don't have my own company or staff to design one for me.
By "these games," I mean ones that are designed as high power, high magic as opposed to the number of other solid RPGs that are mid or lower power and mid or low magic.
It doesn't mean we have to swallow the medicine without asking "what is this" first?
Yes it does and you do.
Handy Haversack, Portable Hole
When I talked to my gamer wife about this topic, these were some of her big 6. The haversack ranking #1 above weapon, armor and stat booster.
Excalibur and Stormbringer, good examples a pair of artifacts. Neither of which were of the standard magical must have items.
The name doesn't matter: whether you call them "magic items" or "artifacts" or "Cool Toys" is irrelevant. The point is that a module designer has to ask the question: "By level X, should I assume that the PCs have Cool Toys or not?"