Handy Haversack, Portable HoleWhen I talked to my gamer wife about this topic, these were some of her big 6. The haversack ranking #1 above weapon, armor and stat booster.
With the "encumberance kills" motto in my mind It would almost seem that it should be the big 7 including a carying capacity item" the haversack, portable hole, bag of holding, or muleback cords.
Yes it does and you do.
Wow. <insert rhetorical question here>
A lot of gamers kinda handwave encumbrance anyway so it's very much a dependent on DM gameplay decisions. By a similar token transport items like winged boots, flying carpets, etc are very campaign specific. In some games they are essential and in others not so much.
The problem with removing the big six isn't so much that it can't be done it's that some encounters become easier (classed humanoids are often gear dependent) whereas other encounters (outsiders and dragons in particular) become much harder because their basic design already includes "virtual" gear upgrades (SR, DR, High Stats, etc).
By removing the PCs ability to effectively challenge those types of monsters, either because the PC's defenses are largely inadequate or that the ability to effectively bypass enemy defenses is limited.
Honestly though most of the problems with the big six and christmas tree effect can be solved by factoring in inherent bonuses into the leveling process and reducing the amount of wealth per level accordingly.
Example: Instead of having a +1 weapon at 4th level, you could make it where PCs get a blanket +1 to hit and +1 to damage at 4th level. This bonus increases every 4 levels, etc. Either allow this bonus to bypass DR/Magic or reduce the effect of DR to a lower always on degree (basically make it functionally equivalent to DR/-) That way you represent their resistance to mortal weaponry but it doesn't become a barrier to actual play.
Resistance bonuses would become inherent, etc.
That way magic items can be reserved for consumables and high end special effect stuff rather than boring static bonuses.
Handy Haversack, Portable HoleWhen I talked to my gamer wife about this topic, these were some of her big 6. The haversack ranking #1 above weapon, armor and stat booster.
This is called the "I can have a bottomless purse?!" effect.
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Speaking as an old-timer. Back in the day you really didn't know what was "level appropriate". You just had a book full of monsters and some were tougher than others. DMs would just have to eyeball the monsters and guess whether or not the party could handle them. This meant that sometimes things were a little tougher or they might be a little easier.
So if you just found a shiny new Flametongue sword, you would fire it up and start hacking at the next monster you came across. You would do your damage and then giggle with glee as you grabbed some extra dice to roll your "extra" damage.
Nowadays, you find a Flametongue and go, "Great. A +1 flaming burst sword that can do 4d6 fire damage at ranged once a day. What the heck am I going to do with this? Fire damage is worthless! I would much rather have holy! And there is no way I am wasting an action to do 4d6 fire damage, even if it is a touch attack! How much can I sell this for?"
So I think a little too much emphasis has been placed on balance. That Flametongue should be given out at a level when it actually is impressive, like at 3rd level or something. Either that or it's special ability should be worth the action of using it, maybe it could do 12d6, and it should cost the same as it does now. Then maybe say, sure, you can make your own weapons with the generic abilities, but you can't make these special weapons. Or if you do want to make them, you are going to need to do something special to be able to. Special weapons should be special and they should be BETTER than just making a generic weapon.
Thankyou all for these explanations. I daresay the next question could possibly be misinterpreted so for clarity let me preface it with: I understand that they are not mandatory and that every character won't get every item. Further that it is more to provide some kind of 'benchmark' designers/DMs/players can measure things by rather than a 'goal to aim for'.I put together a chart that basically lays out how the major magic items are assumed to roll out at different levels according to wealth by level. This chart was made from 3.5 data, so it might be a little different from Pathfinder assumptions, I haven't gone through the PF core book yet to see. I suspect that if there are any big differences, it would involve stat boosting items, since those are the items that got changed the most with the big six from 3.5 to Pathfinder.
Thankyou very much for this - it's extremely useful.
It doesnt matter too much to me whether it's spot on - for thirty years we've been playing completely oblivious to the topic. I've just recently heard of the concept and I figured it may well explain why we seem to unavoidably die when we try and play through pre-written, mid-level adventures.
Our solution is likely to be to steal the 4th edition 'alternate reward' approach and keep finding/using quirky, suboptimal items. Your list will be very helpful in building up a reasonable progression of bonuses. Cheers.
I put together a chart that basically lays out how the major magic items are assumed to roll out at different levels according to wealth by level. This chart was made from 3.5 data, so it might be a little different from Pathfinder assumptions, I haven't gone through the PF core book yet to see. I suspect that if there are any big differences, it would involve stat boosting items, since those are the items that got changed the most with the big six from 3.5 to Pathfinder.
Again, the idea that a fighter PC wouldn't have a +1 weapon until level 6 seems very conservative. By level 6, a 3.5 character's wealth per level guideline is 13,000 gp already -- surely he could have afforded a 2,300 gp weapon before then.
In my experience, fighter-type classes usually have a +1 weapon by level 2 (at the earliest) to 4 (at the latest).
Speaking as an old-timer. Back in the day you really didn't know what was "level appropriate". You just had a book full of monsters and some were tougher than others. DMs would just have to eyeball the monsters and guess whether or not the party could handle them. This meant that sometimes things were a little tougher or they might be a little easier.
So if you just found a shiny new Flametongue sword, you would fire it up and start hacking at the next monster you came across. You would do your damage and then giggle with glee as you grabbed some extra dice to roll your "extra" damage.
Nowadays, you find a Flametongue and go, "Great. A +1 flaming burst sword that can do 4d6 fire damage at ranged once a day. What the heck am I going to do with this? Fire damage is worthless! I would much rather have holy! And there is no way I am wasting an action to do 4d6 fire damage, even if it is a touch attack! How much can I sell this for?"
So I think a little too much emphasis has been placed on balance. That Flametongue should be given out at a level when it actually is impressive, like at 3rd level or something. Either that or it's special ability should be worth the action of using it, maybe it could do 12d6, and it should cost the same as it does now. Then maybe say, sure, you can make your own weapons with the generic abilities, but you can't make these special weapons. Or if you do want to make them, you are going to need to do something special to be able to. Special weapons should be special and they should be BETTER than just making a generic weapon.
Story time.
My brother once ran a FR game set in the Silver Marches. Sadly it ended at about 12th level. About 3/4 the way through we all got a special magic item with a backstory. Ulfgar, my ranger/druid got a +1 giant bane, wounding bastard sword Named the Tooth of Nesmé. It came with a detailed history, and as a player I felt like I just got handed Andúril. Best magic item I ever received, bar none.
Sometimes its in the presentation
Many generations ago, after the fall of Netheril, one wizard of the old empire came to the Frost Hills, impoverished and weak from hunger, to the dwarven king in Mithral Hall, begging. "My lord," he said, "I am a learned and powerful wizard, but since the fall of my land, I have lost everything, and I have not even a spellbook to pull me out of poverty. No humans will hire me, for they blame the Netherese for the cataclysm."
"I, too, blame your people for the recent tragedies, but I may have use for a wizard. You say you are mighty? Know you anything of crafting?" The wizard replied, "With a spellbook, my lord, I could make for you armors and weapons, garments and rings, all of such startling power, you will be accounted a marvel among your kin. Take pity on me, and I offer you ten years of my life in your service."
The dwarf king thought this over, and decided having an arcane artisan sworn to his service would benefit him greatly. "Very well, you shall live in my halls, eat my food, and study spells with my leave. If you lack anything, I shall furnish you. In turn, you will craft any magic I desire, and you shall be at my disposal. Should Mithral Hall need defense, you shall provide what help you can. You shall serve in this way for ten years, and then I will release you with gifts dependent on how satisfactory I find your service."
The wizard, who is called Felzahn, served dutifully and well, and after the 10 years was up, the dwarf king called him to his chambers. "Felzahn, my friend, for indeed friend you have become, we have reached the end of our agreement, and I am a dwarf of my word. I set you free, and would give you anything you ask but my crown, to show my gratitude and friendship."
"Great king, build me a keep where I may start a college of wizardry. In the world now, many great secrets are lost with every wizard who dies, and I would pass my knowledge on, so it might be preserved, and some shred of the might of Netheril live on in the world."
The dwarf king was pleased, and said, "I will build you a college, and it will not lie far away, for I would not give my friend a dwelling hundreds of miles away, I would never see him."
The king kept his word, and built a keep and a tower, and gave it to his friend Felzahn. They parted in friendship, though this did not last.
The keep the king gave to Felzahn was built over caves used by a tribe of trolls, who grew angry when they discovered their new neighbors. Felzahn had already invited a great many apprentices and servants to his new keep, and was in danger of being shamed should the trolls remain. He went to the dwarf king in anger.
"Your keep is infested with trolls. You must lend me warriors to clear them out!"
The king did not like the wizard's demanding tone, and replied, "That which is given is no longer mine, and I though I would grant you aid despite your harsh manner, I have no aid to give. My warriors battle the dark elves of Menzoberranzan and are needed every one. Expel them with wizardry if they irk you so."
Felzahn left in a fury, and never again went to the dwarf king for aid. Instead, he set about a mighty summoning, and brought to the world a dark creature from Chaos. "I am the Firebringer, Maelstrom of Destruction. Why have you brought me here, mortal?" Felzahn explained the troll problem, and the monster laughed, "I will expel these pathetic creatures for you if you will free me from the bond you place on me and let me return to my home." And so the deal was struck.
With speed, power, and viciousness, the summoned beast went about it's mission. Those trolls that weren't destroyed fled to the marshes to the south. When it was done, the beast went to the wizard, saying, "Your task is done. Now free me," and Felzahn agreed.
"You have done well, and I will seek you out should I have more need for so mighty a servant," he said.
"Servant is a title I will never bear, mortal, and I will not take kindly to being disturbed again." With that, the Firebringer vanished.
Many years later, the college had grown, and was full of apprentice wizards, servants and guards. The library was extensive, and they performed many experiments and studies. Felzahn was becoming a master of some renown, though he still would not speak to the dwarven king, his neighbor.
Then, the trolls returned. Their numbers had swelled, and they were bent on getting back their caves. They laid siege to the keep, and though they would be burned by wizardry and fought back by brave warriors, they kept coming.
The captain of the Keep's guard was a mercenary and adventurer called Telun the Wrath, for so great was his fury that it seemed as though he was the instrument of Talos' great fury, though Telun gave no tribute to any one god. Felzahn had made a sword for Telun that would cleave into trolls like they were but frail men, and that would cripple even mighty giants. This sword was called the Tooth of Telun, and killed scores of trolls in the battles of the siege.
After a month of fighting, Felzahn called Telun before him, and said, "You say you are a brave warrior, and have skill without equal, and still the trolls come. I am tired of waiting for you to resolve this conflict, and I will be solving this myself."
Telun had heard the story of the Firebringer, and could guess what Felzahn intended to do. "My lord," he said, ignoring the slights he had been given, "remember the words of the fiend. He will seek vengeance for your attacks to his pride."
"Am I not mighty in wizardry, and have in my mind more lore of demons and gods than all of the guard of this keep together? Do not lecture me. Clearly leading men is beyond you, and you overstep yourself in knowledge and wit. I release you from service here, and I hope you have fortune finding a job as a caravan guard, for that seems more your station."
Telun left the keep, cutting his way through all the trolls that barred his way. When it was clear he was leaving, the trolls laughed and jeered. "They send away their mightiest champion? Wizards are fools!"
Telun took the troll slaying sword, angered by the laughter of the trolls, and travelled to the marshes of the south, from whence the trolls came to bolster the army at the keep. With great skill and stealth, he made his way, mile by mile, deeper into the marsh, hiding from roving bands of trolls and other twisted monstrosities, until at last he came to a great flat shelf, dry and solid, where the trolls had made a great village and camp. There, the troll king dwelt.
Waiting for nightfall, Telun walked into the camp, brazen and open, and shouted, "I am Telun, slayer of trollkind. I have killed over a hundred vile trolls, and wish to double my count! Who will help me?"
Trolls all around the camp were roused, and descended on him in great number, but he fought, defending himself, and severing heads from shoulders until his arms grew tired, and still he fought. When a mountain of corpses surrounded him, still he cleaved and cut, hacked and hewed, until the sky grew light again, and morning came. Then, the troll king woke from his sleep, from which all feared to awaken him, and he came to the battle field to learn why none of his servants had brought him fresh meat.
Seeing the great slaughter, he flew into a rage, and Telun battled the troll king until the sun was high in the sky. Finally, Telun struck the deathblow, and felled the troll king. "This will break the siege of Felzahn," he said, but he did not desire to return to the keep. He built a home on that shelf, clearing away the bodies, letting them sink into the swamp. Over the years, his home became a keep, the keep a town, and Telun was their lord. He never returned to Felzahn's keep to learn it's fate, which was dark. The fiend rebelled and slew Felzahn and all his followers, and is said to lie still in the prison made for it by the magic of ancient Netheril.
Over the years, the line of Telun failed, as happens to many great houses. Lordship fell to other bloodlines, and the sword of Telun found it's way to the Holdfast where it has remained. The folk of Nesmé, the people of Telun, dwell still in the Evermoors, defending their citidel with their lives from trolls and giants.
"Perhaps you will, in your travels, come there some day," Old Night says, passing the large sword, hilt to front, to Ulfgar. "May use this ancient blade on the foes for which it thirsts."
Items can be made cool and given a history no matter what your edition is.
Also, let's not pretend magic items weren't needed in earlier editions. They were needed even more then they are in 3e due to monsters literally having "Cannot be harmed by weapons lower then +x." But my sword is a flaming sword of <fantasy name with too many apostrophes>, it's so awesome! Nope, it's only +1, can't hurt the monster.
Items can be made cool and given a history no matter what your edition is.
Also, let's not pretend magic items weren't needed in earlier editions. They were needed even more then they are in 3e due to monsters literally having "Cannot be harmed by weapons lower then +x." But my sword is a flaming sword of <fantasy name with too many apostrophes>, it's so awesome! Nope, it's only +1, can't hurt the monster.
Ha! So true!
There is no reason that the special, historic, +1 magic sword you just found can't become more powerful with time. Maybe you discover more abilities, or maybe the sword is actually Intelligent and is allowing you to use more abilities as you earn it until eventually it decides to let you know that it is sentient. Or it can just be magically enhanced by the party Wizard. There are lots of different ways to keep a weapon that has sentimental value mechanically valuable as well.
Speaking as an old-timer. Back in the day you really didn't know what was "level appropriate". You just had a book full of monsters and some were tougher than others. DMs would just have to eyeball the monsters and guess whether or not the party could handle them. This meant that sometimes things were a little tougher or they might be a little easier.
So if you just found a shiny new Flametongue sword, you would fire it up and start hacking at the next monster you came across. You would do your damage and then giggle with glee as you grabbed some extra dice to roll your "extra" damage.
Nowadays, you find a Flametongue and go, "Great. A +1 flaming burst sword that can do 4d6 fire damage at ranged once a day. What the heck am I going to do with this? Fire damage is worthless! I would much rather have holy! And there is no way I am wasting an action to do 4d6 fire damage, even if it is a touch attack! How much can I sell this for?"
So I think a little too much emphasis has been placed on balance. That Flametongue should be given out at a level when it actually is impressive, like at 3rd level or something. Either that or it's special ability should be worth the action of using it, maybe it could do 12d6, and it should cost the same as it does now. Then maybe say, sure, you can make your own weapons with the generic abilities, but you can't make these special weapons. Or if you do want to make them, you are going to need to do something special to be able to. Special weapons should be special and they should be BETTER than just making a generic weapon.
I like your style Mr. Twig.
I run a low magic campaign because I think magic should be...well, magical. I wish Paizo/Pathfinder or Wizards/D&D would write some material for the likes of us, but sadly I think market forces are against us my friend. On the other hand, I am hearing this complaint a lot on various fora, so maybe change is in the air.
I play in high magic campaigns where many NPCs we defeat are loaded with magic items, and as a result our PCs are loaded with magic loot. So much so that we lose track of what we have and just don't care when we find more. It seems odd that we often just pass over the magic items simply because we don't want to carry them around.
One thing that makes it tough to run low magic campaigns is there is no support material made for them. For instance I was excited to see the Gamemastery Guide had a plethora of generic NPC ready to play, but they're all dripping with magic items. It would be simple enough toss out all their magical items but then their attack and AC bonuses drop like rocks and I have to go back in and redo the NPC to make it challenging again. In the end it's not saving me any work.
So, I had an idea to help with this problem. It requires expanding the rules for masterwork weapons allowing them to have bonuses to attack and damage up to +5. The cost of buying such a weapon would be roughly equivalent to the market value for the magic version of the same bonus. So for instance, one could buy an exquisitely crafted, indeed legendary, +5 katana for around 50'000 gp.
In this way I could just call all those pre-made NPCs magic weapons mundane masterwork weapons and just ignore the "of whatever" part of the magic item. Of course now PCs will just be overlooking +3 masterwork weapons like they were with magic items. It's not perfect, but I'm just trying to disenchant the attack bonus of these NPCs and make life easier for myself. Disenchanting AC bonuses is tougher, but I don't think it would be impossible, especially with all that talent in the halls of Piazo and WoTC.
Come on guys, throw us a bone.
I run a low magic campaign because I think magic should be...well, magical. I wish Paizo/Pathfinder or Wizards/D&D would write some material for the likes of us,
Considering that would require a basic redesign of the game itself, don't hold your breath. Or just play a different setting. Isn't Iron Kingdoms or something low magic?
I don't see how, exactly, it is so difficult to understand that a game with a base design of high magic can NOT be adapted to low magic without either MAJOR redesig. "I don't want to have to do alot of work to make it a low magic game!!" Well too bleeding bad, the game isn't designed to be low magic by its very structure.
Considering that would require a basic redesign of the game itself, don't hold your breath. Or just play a different setting. Isn't Iron Kingdoms or something low magic?I don't see how, exactly, it is so difficult to understand that a game with a base design of high magic can NOT be adapted to low magic without either MAJOR redesig. "I don't want to have to do alot of work to make it a low magic game!!" Well too bleeding bad, the game isn't designed to be low magic by its very structure.
It really doesn't require that much redesign. It would require a judicious use of discrimination of what options already in the game to include or omit. Spell lists for higher level casters can be cut down in scope and flash assuming you allow the casters at all. Flashy wahoo items can be omitted in favor of stuff that just gives out basic bonuses (ironically, promoting the use of the big 6). Challenges can be limited to creatures without so many resistances or built mostly around NPC races with levels. None of that requires much redesign of the D&D game, just omission of stuff that doesn't fit. And most DMs do a substantial amount of that with their campaigns as it is.
It probably is on the conservative side. The chart was made with the idea of "buying along the way" and grabbing for low hanging fruit first, rather than saving up for the most expensive item, such as picking up a cloak of resistance, magic armor (maybe even shield), and a wand of cure light before getting the magic weapon. The chart is also trying to factor in the loss of gold from selling items back at 50%, which isn't happening at low levels all that much, but does kick in later in the game.
As a rule of thumb, I'd suggest that a fighter-type character would have +1 weapon and armor by level 4 with those values increasing by another +1 at level 7, 10, 13 and 16. But your campaign could differ, obviously.
Would you also lower saves or bump up save DCs? If your lack of magic items means save DCs of the PCs' abilities are very low, then there needs to be something to make up for it or we end up with all wizards being buffbots or conjurers to avoid the struggle.
It really doesn't require that much redesign. It would require a judicious use of discrimination of what options already in the game to include or omit. Spell lists for higher level casters can be cut down in scope and flash assuming you allow the casters at all. Flashy wahoo items can be omitted in favor of stuff that just gives out basic bonuses (ironically, promoting the use of the big 6). Challenges can be limited to creatures without so many resistances or built mostly around NPC races with levels. None of that requires much redesign of the D&D game, just omission of stuff that doesn't fit. And most DMs do a substantial amount of that with their campaigns as it is.
Considering that would require a basic redesign of the game itself, don't hold your breath. Or just play a different setting. Isn't Iron Kingdoms or something low magic?I don't see how, exactly, it is so difficult to understand that a game with a base design of high magic can NOT be adapted to low magic without either MAJOR redesig. "I don't want to have to do alot of work to make it a low magic game!!" Well too bleeding bad, the game isn't designed to be low magic by its very structure.
Agreed. As long as one can understand that bonuses don't have to be tied to magic-items exclusively, it opens up many creative options for the GM and players alike. For instance, if a stat block lists a bunch if items for an NPC, turn those into blessings from his deity or bloodline or even applicable only if he is near a certain artifact.
If the issue is PCs looting the corpse for said items, make them tied to his spirit or station so that they become useless pieces of gear after he is defeated. This way, you don't have to attempt any sort of redesign, but just limit the bonuses to a per encounter setting. Just one of many options.
Easiest way to do a "low magic" game is to add inherent bonuses, quite frankly.
I'm fine with reducing magical items so long as non-casters still get the actual bonuses they need.
See, here's the thing. A low magic game and a low magic item game are not the same. Casters don't need items with the big six, they have spells to give themselves that. All of D&D, right from the first edition, assumed that fighters would have tons of magical items. Hell, go to 2e or earlier, you'll find that most magic items are literally built just for fighters, with many having the qualification that only fighters could even use them!
With an inherent bonuses style mechanic, players can go without the magic items because they don't need them anymore. Oh sure, there's still going to be the need for flight and such like that, but with inherent bonuses you can have it so magic items are really awesome. No longer will players want a boring cloak of resistance. You can give them a radiant cloak of many colors that gives enemies seizures and it'll be awesome.
heres an idea of how inherent bonuses can work
add 1/2 your level as a competence bonus to the following modifiers (in addition to other bonuses)
your to hit, both weapon and spell
to damage, both weapon and spell, applying to every target, swing, ray, orb, or touch
to your saving throws
to your CMB/CMD
and to your armor class
increase stat gains to +2 to one stat per 2 levels with the clause you cannot increase the same stat twice in a row but can increase it again if you invest in something else in between. (can't go Int+Int+Int for example, but you can Go Dex+Con+STR or Dex+Con+Dex)
Shuriken is on the right path. But 1/2 is too much.
1/4 of your level as an inherent bonus to Attack Rolls, Weapon Damage Rolls, AC (and Touch AC) and to Saves. Also Stat bonuses every even level.
That way MOST of your necessities are taken care of, but the various big six items are still desired, it just closes the gap. Players will still yearn for the +1 adamantine flaming greatsword. Weapon DR is the only real snag on this plan IMO. At level 10 someone with a +1 cloak of resistance, which might be very rare, will have a +3 to saves which is about par.
Again, reduce the necessity, but not remove the desire, for these items.
I like using the Unearthed Arcana ruleset for Class Defense Bonus. It removes some of the need to invest in armor for most characters, sword & board tanks will still use armor primarily for AC but Class Defense + Dex + Dodge + etc will satisfy the needs of most characters. Further since class defense helps protect against touch attacks the big discrepancy between regular AC and touch AC is reduced.
Changing everyone to good save progression (2+1/2 level+stat bonus) will reduce the need to invest in resistance bonuses to help boost saves. Make the save boosting feats scale with level +2 initial/+3 at 5th, +4 at 10th, +5 at 15th. Instead of untyped bonus make it a resistance bonus that way there is no incentive to double dip.
Give everyone a weapon training and armor training progression like the fighter based on BAB progression. Keep DR/magic, alignment, whatever but make it so that it's easier to bypass those on a limited usage basis. Examples anointing a sword in holy word and rare oils (maybe 25 GP cost) will allow it to bypass DR/Good for a battle. Rare alchemical dusts and powders allow you to bypass DR/magic. Alchemical silver gives it the ability to bypass DR/silver.
I'd keep DR/adamantite and epic as being really hard to bypass but if characters can get past DR without needing an always on magic item or a spell they you've empowered them.
Natural Armor bonuses could be applied with alchemical cremes and unguents or be limited duration martial rituals. Form of the Turtle might give the fighter +2 natural armor for 1/minute a level. Yes it's psuedo-magical but it's more cool for fighters to be able to use limited use buffs without being a slave to the whims of the casters.
That way magical items can be moved to the showy special effects category. Magic swords that glow, burst into flames, can cut through solid steel, etc. Magic armor that is made of glowing crystal, living flames, etc. Magical wings that allow the user to fly like a bird etc.
I'd also encourage people to combine common magical items into a single chassis. Instead of an amulet of natural armor and a ring of protection and a cloak of resistance why not have a diadem that combines all 3 functions. It's more expensive but it's a lot more special and it leaves a ton of slots open for the unusual items.