The point was to illustrate the difference between groups that know what they are doing and groups that bumble through things. If Ray of Stupidity wasn't in, some other means of trivializing a big, dumb melee only enemy would have been employed. Don't get hung up on the details. The point is spellcasters who know what they are doing > any reasonable encounter and that groups that know what they are doing are both individually and collectively far more efficient. If you don't have those, then you got melee guys swinging for 15 damage tops at something with 180 HP while the Wizard thinks using Scorching Ray for similar (non) effect is a good idea. They all got chewed up and spit out.
Then you should have illustrated it with a valid means.
Wizards are more efficient than fighters. But players who know what they are doing > any reasonable encounter. A group of fighters could just as easily trivialize the T-Rex if they are in the hands of experienced players. They just couldn't do it as efficiently if those players played a group of wizards. It doesn't matter how long the combat lasts if the foe has been trivialized.
:D
"CoDzilla"
:D :D :D
You assume a lot of things. As always.
CR 11 monsters hit with a +19/+23 generally. BUT it does not account for iteratives. This does not account for Power Attack. This doe not account for the fact that concealments and cover can be obtained even without magic.
And speaking of magic It's useless you assume things in a vacuum. You assume for comparison that melee and caster play alone in competition, but the game is designed assuming reciprocal support, hence numbers are calculated accordingly.
Above, encounters have been considered accomplished basing on arbitrary assumption. A troll, an erynes cannot beat the crap out of you so is considered defeated. YEAH, can happen but is not a rule. Can happen you can surpass a couple of trolls and stel something, and is quite fun instead of the usual DPR, but I wouldn't grant the XP until the end, becaus who knows what can happan and call the trolls back.
Moreover, I see something like a double standard here. Casters can think outside the box in defeating challenges, but when we talk about rogues, only DPR counts. Noncasters can think outside the box too. Maybe have less options, but the dismissive attitude I read here is not even longer irritating, it's just hilarious.
So, they run up and hit it?
Why would a group of fighters in the hands experienced players do that?
I must admit, I always enjoy these threads.
Seeing one group that refuses to actually learn about what they're talking about arguing with another group who doesn't want to listen.
Puts a smile on my face it does.
Though to at least pretend to be on topic, I would simply point out that a lot of the arguments going back and forth depend strongly on player experience, the style of campaign, the occurrences thus far throughout it and a million other little variables.
A statement supporting that wizards are the end all or they aren't simply has no real effect without pages upon pages of set up to understand where the wizard is coming from.
Unless we're talking the extreme low levels then it only needs a paragraph or so on background.
Because you are awarded XP for overcoming encounters. This can be by mindlessly hack and slashing them all down. It can also be by sneaking past them or any number of other, more thoughtful means.
Since the specific example was "Trolls are guarding a locked door." and your goal is to get past the door using Blink and Invisibility to do so means you have overcame the Trolls. Full XP.
That is an encounter you would get Xp for. Flying over a grease trap is not overcoming the encounter. Just like I don't get better at driving because I detour around an icy road, you shouldn't get better because you skipped the encounter. In addition, if the means of bypassing the encounter are trivial, that means the encounter was trivial. You should not get XP for trivial tasks.
Sure I can argue that. Because see, they do that anyways. The best spells in the game have always been core only. That hasn't changed. A pure PF Wizard still has plenty of save or sucks, while also having better stats, better items, better everything... except ability to play as a non selfish caster. What core lacks is the ability to viably buff others. If you want good buffs that are not self only you have to pull out your Spell Compendium and other such non core 3.5 books in order to find them. Martial types suck a lot less when under a Persisted Recitation and Persisted Righteous Wrath of the Faithful and Mass Conviction is up for 10 hours a day. Obviously, none of that is core and all of it is 3.5. But without the easy +6 attacks, +6 saves (at level 10), +3 AC, and the good part of Haste as an always on effect? Heh, forget about it. Buffing the melees is a waste of time and resources. It's more efficient and effective to just spam save or loses. And since PF buffs caster DCs, this is extremely effective.
Which is why, as I have said many times...
I think the problem here is that you are stuck on your own biases and are unable and unwilling to actually use the Pathfinder rules as written and see how they work. You begin with baseless assumptions and then continue to make illogical arguments. You can't say that Pathfinder wizards are great if you are using material from non-Pathfinder sources.
I do understand part of where you are coming from. You assume that if you character isn't a god, then he is insignificant. You play the game as if it is a binary problem: win/lose. That's not how it goes though. Many of us like the thrill of our characters actually having to deal with a problem and facing a very real threat of death. Many of us who use the rules as they are find the game to be quite a bit of fun.
Try running your wizard (or any other character) with Core only and use the Elite Array. I'm willing to bet your wizards would find survival more than a challenge. Remember that the game is built around that assumption. If you increase the point buy to 25 (as you have said you do) then you are increasing the power of the characters by quite a bit. They would then maintain that power as they continue to add on as they level. Try the game on the "hard setting" and see how well you do. I know I could do well if I played on "easy" in "god-mode."
Try running your wizard (or any other character) with Core only and use the Elite Array. I'm willing to bet your wizards would find survival more than a challenge. Remember that the game is built around that assumption. If you increase the point buy to 25 (as you have said you do) then you are increasing the power of the characters by quite a bit. They would then maintain that power as they continue to add on as they level. Try the game on the "hard setting" and see how well you do. I know I could do well if I played on "easy" in "god-mode."
That's not really a fair characterization.
The elite array is rough on pure casters, true.
However, 10 point buy (less than you're using) is not, and I don't think anyone could seriously characterize it as "easy mode".
Why would a group of fighters in the hands experienced players do that?So, they run up and hit it?
Because they are Fighters, and therefore their ability sets are limited.
If you are saying they should all be archers, that brings me to the other part of my statement.
How do you stop them from running up and hitting you?
We're assuming the players "have a clue" right?
Then there are a variety of ways... all dependent upon the group's resources. If we can go by WBL (which is not unreasonable), then a party of 4 7th level PCs has nearly 100,000gp worth of resources to play with collectively. If they're all fighters and have a clue, I'm sure they can come up with at least one way of handling the single encounter ogre, bulette, hill giant, t-rex style monsters.
But for starters, a tower shield would be a nice start. And let action economy take its course. Since the scenario requires traveling to the Isle of Dread, I personally might seriously consider taking a few potions of water walk. It is an island surrounded by water after all, and you're taking a ship to get there.
That is an encounter you would get Xp for. Flying over a grease trap is not overcoming the encounter. Just like I don't get better at driving because I detour around an icy road, you shouldn't get better because you skipped the encounter. In addition, if the means of bypassing the encounter are trivial, that means the encounter was trivial. You should not get XP for trivial tasks.Because you are awarded XP for overcoming encounters. This can be by mindlessly hack and slashing them all down. It can also be by sneaking past them or any number of other, more thoughtful means.
Since the specific example was "Trolls are guarding a locked door." and your goal is to get past the door using Blink and Invisibility to do so means you have overcame the Trolls. Full XP.
You do get XP for trivial tasks. That's what being good at the game or just lucky gets you. Otherwise, you penalize characters for making decent characters or good choices.
I mean, you don't get more XP if you suck. If you run into a fight with no buffs or healing and take a lot of damage with a final boss you get the same XP as you would if you cast a Flesh to Stone on round 1 and killed him before anyone else acted. The fact that in the first scenario you fought like a chump and burned all your resources doesn't get you a boost in XP. By the same token, getting lucky or being good is not a valid reason for the DM to strip XP from you.... otherwise you are telling your PCs that they should not be smart about facing challenges or else you will punish them.
And it works the same with traps or diplomacy or any other challenge in the game that grants XP. Only video games require monster deaths or disarming the trap to get the XP because video games can't determine when you have advanced the narrative.
The problem is that since the vast majority of parties have fighting guys with spellcasters, not killing the monster is not even an option so it has become the default win condition. I mean, fighting guys can't in most cases sneak past the monster, use diplomacy, or otherwise choose some other option than murder with extreme predudice.
Personally, I think fighting guys lessen the game because of that fact.
Then there are a variety of ways... all dependent upon the group's resources. If we can go by WBL (which is not unreasonable), then a party of 4 7th level PCs has nearly 100,000gp worth of resources to play with collectively. If they're all fighters and have a clue, I'm sure they can come up with at least one way of handling the single encounter ogre, bulette, hill giant, t-rex style monsters.
Gah. Do you understand how quickly that gold gets flushed down the toilet once you buy magic armor, a magic shield, a magic weapon, and then basic stat boosters. +save items, and/or AC items? At +2 weapon is 8K... a +2 armor or shield is 4K each.... a ring of protection +1 is 2k and a +2 is 8K.... a amulet of natural armor is 2K for a +1 and 8k for a +2.... a Cloak of Resistance is 1K for a +1 and 4K for a +2.... a Belt of Giant Strength +2 is 4K.... your personal share of 25K is going to be gone quite fast.
I mean, in an ideal world some of that combined 100K is spend on potions and wonderous magic items that solve problems, but in truth all of that treasure is needed to keep fighting guy PCs from falling over in each and every combat.
In the last big game I played, my Sorcerer didn't even take any treasure until about 6th level because we needed to keep stacking magic items onto the fighting guys to keep them from dying in every combat.
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Gah. Do you understand how quickly that gold gets flushed down the toilet once you buy magic armor, a magic shield, a magic weapon, and then basic stat boosters. +save items, and/or AC items? At +2 weapon is 8K... a +2 armor or shield is 4K each.... a ring of protection +1 is 2k and a +2 is 8K.... a amulet of natural armor is 2K for a +1 and 8k for a +2.... a Cloak of Resistance is 1K for a +1 and 4K for a +2.... a Belt of Giant Strength +2 is 4K.... your personal share of 25K is going to be gone quite fast.
I mean, in an ideal world some of that combined 100K is spend on potions and wonderous magic items that solve problems, but in truth all of that treasure is needed to keep fighting guy PCs from falling over in each and every combat.
Am I the only person on these forums who believes in using the magical gear you find out adventuring, and not having a Wish Scrolls R Us on every damn corner of even the most pathetic near-ghost town village?
Am I the only person on these forums who believes in using the magical gear you find out adventuring, and not having a Wish Scrolls R Us on every damn corner of even the most pathetic near-ghost town village?
No, you are not alone. My players get Craft feats if they want more control on equipment.
This does not mean I am a J**** with them. Quests and rewards can bring in items more ad hoc, because they either start a quest, or are famous and then the reward is well-thought by the NPC.
But no magic shops, sorry :D
Am I the only person on these forums who believes in using the magical gear you find out adventuring, and not having a Wish Scrolls R Us on every damn corner of even the most pathetic near-ghost town village?Gah. Do you understand how quickly that gold gets flushed down the toilet once you buy magic armor, a magic shield, a magic weapon, and then basic stat boosters. +save items, and/or AC items? At +2 weapon is 8K... a +2 armor or shield is 4K each.... a ring of protection +1 is 2k and a +2 is 8K.... a amulet of natural armor is 2K for a +1 and 8k for a +2.... a Cloak of Resistance is 1K for a +1 and 4K for a +2.... a Belt of Giant Strength +2 is 4K.... your personal share of 25K is going to be gone quite fast.
I mean, in an ideal world some of that combined 100K is spend on potions and wonderous magic items that solve problems, but in truth all of that treasure is needed to keep fighting guy PCs from falling over in each and every combat.
I find that players rebel if they can't return to a major city after every adventure to sell loot. Gold doesn't help you win adventures unless it's converted to magic items you can use.
That being said, when doing pre-published adventures you'll find that the majority of items you find are suitable for fighting guys.... so you end up stacking that equipment on them. Useful potions and wands are rarely placed as treasure in the AP, for example, or they get expended during the combats where they show up.
Once teleport shows up, having access to a major city is rarely an issue.
And if you aren't letting PCs sell loot and buy magic items, you aren't playing Pathfinder or DnD. This assumption is hardcoded into the both variants, and playing some hardcore version where they can't get magic items makes life for fighting guys quite hard.
Spellcasters don't care. I mean, a cleric can just have level-appropriate magic armor and weapons and a Wizard has all the utility he will ever need... any potions or scrolls he gets are just bonuses.
Sure, the martial team can use only what they find.
:D :D :D
The wizard player cannot craft things for his friends?
What about the Master Craftman feat?
Sure, the martial team can use only what they find.
:D :D :D
The wizard player cannot craft things for his friends?
What about the Master Craftman feat?
Not every Wizard is willing to burn his super-limited store of feats just to keep the fighting guys happy.
He also needs gold and supposedly raw materials to craft things.... so getting back to a major city is still assumed for crafters.
Sure, the martial team can use only what they find.
:D :D :D
The wizard player cannot craft things for his friends?
What about the Master Craftman feat?
Not every Wizard is willing to burn his super-limited store of feats just to keep the fighting guys happy.
He also needs gold and supposedly raw materials to craft things.... so getting back to a major city is still assumed for crafters.
That's obviously correct.. but that's different from "the martial team can use only what they find". It's more "the martial team will have more trouble".
See, I recongize problems. Are dichotomies that shock me. One thing is either possible or not possible. Another thing either is OP or sucks.
Keep the conversation civil, please-and-thank-you. :)
And it takes you a while to get there, during which you can't really shop. But ok. You have potions of water walk. That you somehow haven't used in the other encounters in or around water. The dinosaur swims over. If that doesn't work the dinosaur leaves since it was hungry, and can't get food so there's no point in hanging around, especially if it is being shot at with pointy sticks. But you haven't overcame it yet because it will just come back later. How long does that potion last?
I dunno about you, but I'd rather not have some massive predator engaging me in the time and place of its choice. And that means dealing with it now.
At this point, you've admitted one of a variety of ways how T-rex loses to four fighters. Let it come back if it wants. (they won't be there) or let it stick around (it won't be there for long). 50 minutes. You wanted an example and I gave one (and a campaign appropriate one at that). Bottom line: 4 fighters vs. one creature who's only ability is one attack for hp damage each round and no other tactic = win for team fighter. If the players are really good, then it is likely to be a trivial encounter too.
But as I said, the all martial team has more and worse problems than a single T-Rex. They have no save or loses and no healing. 3.5 material helps, but not very much. Healing Belts don't last that long by themselves. Then you're stuck with overpriced potions. Said parties will find very quickly that while spells are technically limited, HP are limited in a much more stringent and final way.
Now healing belts are in Pathfinder? At least the bolded statement above is beginning to be relevant again.
EDIT: Look, if you want to keep using 3rd party options to make your point, knock yourself out. I just can't take points supported by that information seriously.
Keep the conversation civil, please-and-thank-you. :)
No effort. I must have my dinner. See ya denners.
*goes away, overconfident of his humor*
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I love this avoid encounters idea. "Grandpa, what did you do in the war?" "WAR! Bah, I avoided that sucker like the plague, got meself all the way to level 15 just sittin' here on me porch!" (humour intended)
The T-Rex encounter was actually unavoidable. Spoilered for those playing that AP
CodZilla didn't avoid that though, in his defense. His example merely pointed out that poorly played parties struggle through AP's whereas well played characters don't. I'm not sure how that's showing a difference between classes, but it sure shows a difference between playstyles.
There are times when the magic users will shine, where encounters can be bypassed easily by them and everyone else breaths a sigh of relief. There are times when they can't, because you just have to deal with that encounter.
On amore serious note, if you're continuosly bypassing encounters and your DM gets you those xp (which may be fair enough depending on how you bypassed encounters), you are going to be well and truly behind wealth by level before long.
A note on crafting btw, it requires time (something you'll prbably get in small doses), the right equipment, and the proper crafting environment or workshop. The last one is a clincher, and since it's not spelled out in the rules explicitly what this means, it's open to GM interpretation, again leading to the point that the GM can let you get as powerful as he/she wants. Sure you can spend some time while adventuring creating things, but you're never going to get that item fnished until you get back to the workshop for the crucial parts of creation. That could be an entire 3 or 4 levels if you're playing some of the AP's
You also need the materials to build it. Now all the book says is x amount of cash in equipment, but since it doesn't explicitly say what that is, it's up to the GM to determine if the equipment to make it is avialble. I use percentage tables to determine if equipment is available for sale in a town, those same percentages go for the material component required to make an item.
Edit - No argument from me on teh healing thing by the way. Every party needs healing. An all fighter party is doomed without access to healing somehow, and all magic user party is doomed beacuse they die to quick when things do reach them. This is why it's a team game.
At this point, you've admitted one of a variety of ways how T-rex loses to four fighters. Let it come back if it wants. (they won't be there) or let it stick around (it won't be there for long). 50 minutes. You wanted an example and I gave one (and a campaign appropriate one at that). Bottom line: 4 fighters vs. one creature who's only ability is one attack for hp damage each round and no other tactic = win for team fighter. If the players are really good, then it is likely to be a trivial encounter too.Tracking by scent. Your argument is invalid.
Hmm, didn't know t-rexes could track across water. More likely, the t-rex became occupied by another scent as it wandered off, or sated itself on those that died in the shipwreck and washed ashore.
The game is not balanced amongst parties that don't have a reasonable class variety in multiple roles as opposed to just one. Wizards aren't that good at healing themselves either without universal item access and major resource expenditure.
I wouldn't say they're good at healing themselves, but at the midlevels and higher they do have a lot more options there. Transforming into something with regeneration, summoning something with healing spells, and so on.
It's a serious fallacy to think that spellcasters fall quickly to encounters.
Heck, clerics run around in full plate and tower shields. Spellcasters have spells for temporary HPs, stat boosts, and blanket immunities like blink or dependent immunities like improved invisibility or mirror image. They have summons and animated minions (I know that in my last big campaign my animated Manticore was tanking more than the fighters.).
Spellcasters can also control the battlefield to a much greater degree, controlling when and where enemies can attack. That saves a lot more lives than 25% more HPs and a few points of AC.
They also can spend a greater percentage of their treasure on protection items because they don't need magic weapons and ammo.
Plus, spellcasters have the only real means of escape from encounters and often the only meaningful forms of stealth.
If anything, fighting guys fall faster than spellcasters. I mean, things like trolls are murder if you go toe to toe with them and trading blows with Dire animals is just dumb when you can just fly and kill from range with a bow you aren't even proficient in.
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Less resting actually hurts fighting guys more because they can't heal and they burn through spellcaster buffs and healing faster.
It's a myth that fighting guys can fight all day. They fight for exactly as long as the healing holds up.
Yes and no.
A fighter always fights at maximum ability, this is not related to remaining hp's. 100% effective until hp = 0.
Now let's say a 3rd level 1e Magic-User, 2 x 1st level + 1 x 2nd level spell and that's it until 5 hours of rest and recovery of spells has occurred. So once a Magic-User has cast those spells their effectiveness drops off dramatically.
S.
PS: Used 1e as an example - but the same holds true in PF, just slightly more spells per day for the Wizard.
Am I the only person on these forums who believes in using the magical gear you find out adventuring, and not having a Wish Scrolls R Us on every damn corner of even the most pathetic near-ghost town village?Ok. I'll be candid with you.
Savage Tide gives s&!%ty treasure. You're either fighting very low level humanoids, or monsters with no treasure much of the time. If the PCs have half normal WBL, they came out lucky.
Sure, the martial team can use only what they find. That only hurts them worse. They need magic shops just to get this far. They also need someone to rewrite the entire adventure so their treasure doesn't suck.
Now in my case, they got those things. It still wasn't enough.
I usually found published adventures do tend to go light on the wealth with the expectation that the GM will put in customized treasure appropriate for the group to make up the difference. At least that's how I look at it.
I usually found published adventures do tend to go light on the wealth with the expectation that the GM will put in customized treasure appropriate for the group to make up the difference. At least that's how I look at it.Am I the only person on these forums who believes in using the magical gear you find out adventuring, and not having a Wish Scrolls R Us on every damn corner of even the most pathetic near-ghost town village?Ok. I'll be candid with you.
Savage Tide gives s&!%ty treasure. You're either fighting very low level humanoids, or monsters with no treasure much of the time. If the PCs have half normal WBL, they came out lucky.
Sure, the martial team can use only what they find. That only hurts them worse. They need magic shops just to get this far. They also need someone to rewrite the entire adventure so their treasure doesn't suck.
Now in my case, they got those things. It still wasn't enough.
I thought it was done to keep the challenge level up. I have not played STAP, but since it is one of the harder AP's I don't think skimping on gold was necessary.
Becoming a wizard is for cowards who would prefer to cower behind cover playing with owlbear feces, making silly hand gestures, and chanting nonsense while a battle is raging. They can occasionaly be useful in non-combat situations, but they're often so frail and cowardly that they complain that they need to sleep after the group has killed only a few hundred orcs. They also insist on having someone who CAN be useful in battle hang back to protect them, should any enemies manage to sneak up behind the group. In doing so, they rob a warrior of his potential glory.
Wizards...pah! *spits*
*spits*
pah, indeed!
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Savage Tide gives s@*!ty treasure. You're either fighting very low level humanoids, or monsters with no treasure much of the time. If the PCs have half normal WBL, they came out lucky.
Sure, the martial team can use only what they find. That only hurts them worse. They need magic shops just to get this far. They also need someone to rewrite the entire adventure so their treasure doesn't suck.
Now in my case, they got those things. It still wasn't enough.
I ran this for a party of 4 players and I never have and never will provide magic-item shops, but I do allow master work items. The players with what they discovered along the way was enough for them to get through the first 4 adventures, we stopped after that for other reasons. The players seemed to be enjoying themselves and as new Pathfinder players they were blissfully ignorant that the adventure was ripping them off with respect to WBL. Have some found that the AP's are death traps without every one-horse town having a "Ronald McMagic-Item Maker" magic-item chain store (drive through available in some areas)? I have only run Age of Worms and part (as noted) of Savage Tide - both seemed fine to me without unlimited access to the purchase of magic items.
Mileage may vary,
S.
The game is not balanced amongst parties that don't have a reasonable class variety in multiple roles as opposed to just one. Wizards aren't that good at healing themselves either without universal item access and major resource expenditure.[
For all the memes about a 15 minute workday, a 4 Fighter team is more likely to invoke it than a 4 spellcaster team.
Fight once, rest several days to heal naturally.
Fight once, rest several days to heal naturally.
Fight once, rest... oh crap night attack. Everyone dies.
Depends on which one. If they're all martials, they're going nowhere fast.
If they're all Wizards, well they're rather good at not taking any damage in the first place for a number of reasons.
If they're all Clerics, I shouldn't even need to explain it.
But no one is saying all Wizards, or all Clerics. They're saying all spellcasters. Could be Clerics, Druids, Wizards, Sorcerers, Beguilers, Dread Necromancers...
We've done the all martial classes. They are powerful and kick butt. Had game with 2 rogues and 2 fighters. They were power house taking out things APL +4 and +5. We went to level 16 and I started with 28 pt builds. To deal with magical needs the players all took leadership gaining a cohort who could cast spells that was 2 levels lower. This happened at 11th level.
Done an all casters game too with wizards and sorcerer. They were weak barely able to take APL +1. This started changing when they got 3rd level spells. This game also used the 28pt build. We took this game up to about 9th and the caster were significantly better but still not where the melee guys were. By 17 I'm sure they would have out classed the melee guys big time. They did the same leadership trick to get meat shields but did it at 7th level.
I think all clerics would be insanely powerful though. Haven't tried that. I think a game with Clerics, Oracles, Paladins, and Inquisitors would be interesting.
We've done the all martial classes. They are powerful and kick butt. Had game with 2 rogues and 2 fighters. They were power house taking out things APL +4 and +5. We went to level 16 and I started with 28 pt builds. To deal with magical needs the players all took leadership gaining a cohort who could cast spells that was 2 levels lower. This happened at 11th level.Done an all casters game too with wizards and sorcerer. They were weak barely able to take APL +1. This started changing when they got 3rd level spells. This game also used the 28pt build. We took this game up to about 9th and the caster were significantly better but still not where the melee guys were. By 17 I'm sure they would have out classed the melee guys big time. They did the same leadership trick to get meat shields but did it at 7th level.
Arcane spellcasters don't really hit their stride until they get 3rd level spells unless they stick to the short list of killer spells, and don't get really crazy until they get 4th and 5th level spells. If they are tossing around something lame like magic missiles they might be very weak indeed. For the simple sake of variety I'm sure your spellcasters probably had spell lists that were all over the place.
Also, blowing Leadership on meatshields is a big reason why they had so much trouble. Arcane meatshields are summoned monsters and animated dead.... cohorts are supposed to be casters.
But it's not surprising to me that a party of fighting guys backed up by a whole party of spellcasters does well. They don't have many weaknesses at low levels and the spellcasters come into their own at the levels that stabbing people is no longer viable.
Less resting actually hurts fighting guys more because they can't heal and they burn through spellcaster buffs and healing faster.
It's a myth that fighting guys can fight all day. They fight for exactly as long as the healing holds up.
Yes and no.
A fighter always fights at maximum ability, this is not related to remaining hp's. 100% effective until hp = 0.
Now let's say a 3rd level 1e Magic-User, 2 x 1st level + 1 x 2nd level spell and that's it until 5 hours of rest and recovery of spells has occurred. So once a Magic-User has cast those spells their effectiveness drops off dramatically.
Fighting guys lose fighting effectiveness when they take ability damage since they might lose access to feats.
So when facing CR a 3 shadow or a CR 1 Giant Spider, a few lucky hits and missed saves and suddenly your Power Attack and Cleave and maybe Great Cleave will go offline. A few hits by a giant wasp and your Rogue may lose access to Two weapon Fighting and associated feats.
Negative levels or even spell effects can cripple fighting guys since they have no recourse. I mean, after you next medusa fight try to convince someone that the petrified guy is at 100% fighting effectiveness.
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Negative levels and damage to stats drops caster effectiveness too. Must be the right level to cast those spells. Must also have high enough stats to learn them. If you're saying the dex guy loses their feats because of ability drain and neg levels, then your caster is losing spells too.
Given you keep telling everyone that a casters power is in their spells, then their effectiveness drops just as drastically,possibly more so since now they don't have the mighty versatility you keep espousing.
Cheers
Savage Tide gives s@*!ty treasure. You're either fighting very low level humanoids, or monsters with no treasure much of the time. If the PCs have half normal WBL, they came out lucky.
Sure, the martial team can use only what they find. That only hurts them worse. They need magic shops just to get this far. They also need someone to rewrite the entire adventure so their treasure doesn't suck.
Now in my case, they got those things. It still wasn't enough.
I ran this for a party of 4 players and I never have and never will provide magic-item shops, but I do allow master work items. The players with what they discovered along the way was enough for them to get through the first 4 adventures, we stopped after that for other reasons. The players seemed to be enjoying themselves and as new Pathfinder players they were blissfully ignorant that the adventure was ripping them off with respect to WBL. Have some found that the AP's are death traps without every one-horse town having a "Ronald McMagic-Item Maker" magic-item chain store (drive through available in some areas)? I have only run Age of Worms and part (as noted) of Savage Tide - both seemed fine to me without unlimited access to the purchase of magic items.
Mileage may vary,
S.
Speaking for AoW: It depends on what books you allow, and how lethally you run your encounters also. AoW is not too bad with treasure though, except for chapter 3, and once they get to chapter 4 they get to a metropolis so finding any magic item they want, magic shop or not, should not be hard.
PS:AoW is way to dangerous for new players without DM intervention when I run it so I tend to be a little more generous until they get the basics down.
Negative levels and damage to stats drops caster effectiveness too. Must be the right level to cast those spells. Must also have high enough stats to learn them. If you're saying the dex guy loses their feats because of ability drain and neg levels, then your caster is losing spells too.
Given you keep telling everyone that a casters power is in their spells, then their effectiveness drops just as drastically,possibly more so since now they don't have the mighty versatility you keep espousing.
Cheers
I was replying to the myth that fighting guys can fight all day at 100% effectiveness as long as they have HPs. Clearly, even CR 1 enemies can drastically decrease their effectiveness.
It's obvious that casters lose effectiveness as they run out of spells. What was your point? Did you somehow think I was arguing otherwise?
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Negative levels and damage to stats drops caster effectiveness too. Must be the right level to cast those spells. Must also have high enough stats to learn them. If you're saying the dex guy loses their feats because of ability drain and neg levels, then your caster is losing spells too.
Given you keep telling everyone that a casters power is in their spells, then their effectiveness drops just as drastically,possibly more so since now they don't have the mighty versatility you keep espousing.
Cheers
I was replying to the myth that fighting guys can fight all day at 100% effectiveness as long as they have HPs. Clearly, even CR 1 enemies can drastically decrease their effectiveness.
It's obvious that casters lose effectiveness as they run out of spells. What was your point? Did you somehow think I was arguing otherwise?
If we remove the conditions that negatively impact on BOTH classes other than HP loss to the point of zero remaining, i.e. stat reduction, paralysis, etc as the examples you gave, then we have a Wizards main resource is spells and a Fighters main resource is HP's during a battle. If we then start removing the MAIN resource of each class, in only one, the Wizard, do we see a decrease in potential. That was my point, pure and simple. Exceptions can be put forward of course either for or against Wizards/Fighters.
S.
If we remove the conditions that negatively impact on BOTH classes other than HP loss to the point of zero remaining, i.e. stat reduction, paralysis, etc as the examples you gave, then we have a Wizards main resource is spells and a Fighters main resource is HP's during a battle. If we then start removing the MAIN resource of each class, in only one, the Wizard, do we see a decrease in potential.
Of course, even if we take that to be true...
If I'm playing a (mid level or higher for this case, let's say) wizard and I'm running out of spells, I lose some effectiveness/versatility. It's possible that I may get far enough down that I think I need to run away. In some cases this will equate to the failure of my mission, whatever it may be.
On the other hand, if I'm playing a fighter and I'm running out of HP, I still fight at full effectiveness, but I'm now in danger of dying in one bad round. In some cases this will equate to me being dead.
If the effect of losing HP vs. spells isn't equal, neither is the effect of losing all of either.
What I actually said was that you need an AC of at least 40 at that level to make AC work for you. The requirement for viability was the damage. The AC was meant to illustrate that going for AC would only reduce your effectiveness against the many things that bypass AC. So he posts some character with a Con of only 12 and terrible saves. I pointed this out. So he posts two more builds that, aside from maybe the Paladin smiting do not meet the damage criteria. Unless you're assuming every attack is hitting, which he doesn't have a high enough attack bonus to guarantee.
And this is ignoring things like him pulling stuff out of books I don't have like APG without explaining what they do. But taking his word for it that all of those abilities do what he says, he has so far proven he can barely meet the stated criteria by leaving himself wide open against the vast majority of opposition (low saves and HP again) or that he can fall short of the damage criteria while doing everything the system lets him to do meet the prescribed criteria. And this is also at the minimum level stated. It gets harder from there due to the way enemy HP scales.
Again, the point he should be taking away from this is that AC doesn't work, and you need other means of defending yourself that...
And the later builds? Everything in the paladin build is Core or APG. Not that hard to find considering that it's open content. The half orc free hand fighter has three things not in either of those books, the first is the desparate battler feat from the campaign settings book, the second is the fetish which is from the River in Darkness 15 and is an amulet of natural armor that gives a negative level if you take it off, hence it is 1,000 gp cheaper, and the last one is the dervish dance feat (from Qadira: Gateway to the East 23).
Considering you were wide open for 3.5 material I must say it is curious one to then try to hide behind "But I don't got it!"
To make your life easier: The archives of Nethys has everything I've used to date in this thread.
Other than those the stuff mentioned above the other options I used from the APG are:
Sacred tattoos (racial subsitution for half orcs)
Free hand fighter
Traits (including the additional traits feat)
Holy Vindicator prestige class
Not exactly ground breaking stuff.
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Something else Martial/Melee =/= fighter only -- if the "caster only" party can have anyone on the caster side (clerics, druids, wizards, witches, sorcerers, etc) then the melee side *should* have access to more than just fighters. Paladins are Martial characters and still have access to really good healing choices, rangers are martial as well and have access to healing options too (but no where near as good as the paladin).
Personally I also believe that the confusion that fighters can somehow only handle encounters with melee tactics is a larger issue here -- of course a party that only has melee characters is going to have problems -- that would be true if the party consisted of only clerics and druids too though.
(side point to K -- clerics don't automatically have heavy armor and must spend the feat for tower shields too (as they have since 3.5) -- now that's not to say they can't -- but it does require the choice to do so and expenditure of goods)
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Just for those curious (and without the tables handy) the average stats at level 11 for a monster are:
AC 25 HP 148(average HD 15) Good Saves +14 Attack Bonus 19(primary) 16 (secondary) Average DPR (with all hits landing) 50 (high damage) 37 (low damage) Primary ability DC 20 Secondary ability DC 14
For an "epic encounter" which is CR = APL +3 so at level 11 an epic encounter involves a CR 14 monster (or level 15 NPC with player class levels and NPC wealth by level).
The Averages for a CR 14 encounter:
AC 29 HP 200 (average HD 20) Good saves +17 Poor Saves +12 High Attack +23 Low attack +17 Average Damage 65 (high) 48 (low) Primary ability DC 22 Secondary Ability DC 16