>Raises fin< Grognard Life.
Yes, let us all sacrifice a cow at the altar of "less choices."I just wish we had more options to make rather than all or nothing when it cam to using the feat.Whoever says that the "slider" Power Attack was cool obviously never had a player at the table who would break out a calculator and a spreadsheet before every attack in order to caluculate the most optimal hit-to-damage ratio at given condidtions.
Thanks heavens that's behind us.
This man speaks the truth. We should never take away anything, ever. Just keep on adding more things. If it turns out that a mistake was made, then just ignore it and don't ever try to fix it.
Ever.
Oh but wait, let's not give spellcasters more options because they'd be worthless additions competing for already valuable spell slots.
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Just pointing out the hypocrisy of congratulating one and not the other. If I misinterpreted you as you just have me, I apologize.So it's okay to talk like that about rollplayers but not role-players Mr Fishy?Never said either was right. Just one was funnier. Defensive much?
Eh. I may've come across more combative than I first intended. Like in politics or the eternal Coke vs Pepsi debate, my view of optimizers vs. overdramatic roleplayers is that moderation is always best. My problem is mostly with circumstances like every fighter to see the light of day in Living Greyhawk swinging a spiked chain or people saying they refuse to use an on the whole improved version of 3.5 because they can't carry over their favorite build. If everyone ends up making the mathematically 'best' build for their class you end up with a lot of boring, repetitive gaming populated by the same characters and faces you read about in an optimizing guide.
The worst thing about Pathfinder is that they didn't do even more to eliminate this concept of 'the best build' for a class (ie it's less important to have an interesting, fun character than one with good maths), though they went a long way with the archetypes in the APG. They've said they'll roll out something similar for the new core classes there in a later book, though, so I look forward to seeing that rectified for witch, summoner, alchemist etc.|
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4. "Humanocentric." Yes, one of the game designers actually used the H-word on the forums (and yes, I do consider it a dirty word). Aren't we tired of Lord of the Rings yet? It's 20-freaking-10, and tons of people like playing exotic and/or bestial races. Deal with it.
Um, probably not. Those "tons of people" apparently don't represent much market share. And, one of the biggest complaints about Monte's homebew stuff (Arcana Evolved, etc) is all the "furries" running around.
The proper statement might be "a small but vocal group of gamers want to play anthropomorphic animals". Which, really, is more of a sci-fi thing anyway, not a pulp fantasy thing, which is what Pathfinder (and old school D&D for that matter) tries to invoke.
5. Vancian spellcasting. Apparently, some people still like it. God knows why, but apparently they do. However, for the rest of us, how about a little less of it? In fact, how about a supplement that provides rules for making all spellcasters spontaneous (even partial ones like Paladins and Rangers), if people want to ditch Vancian from their game?
I wonder how many people actually have read Jack Vance novels whenever I hear this complaint. Especially (and you didn't do this, but I see it all the time) when they have no clue what, exactly, Vancian casting represents. By the way, they don't "forget" spells. They charge themselves as magic items. Read the novels, you may actually appreciate why this is the way it is.
You know, there is a D&D that ditched Vancian casting.
Paizo is populated by old school types, by and large, who seem to like old school D&D conventions.
Monte Cook came out with a ton of material with all the furries and spell casting options you could ever want, check them out some time.
As to you last complain, yeah, we need a bunch of untested against all other sources splat hell like 3.5 had badly. Seriously, how can I find my character loopholes if I don't have a ton of barely edited non playtested crap released three times a month?
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Yes it does. The lady is suggesting the slow release schedule is why Pathfinder is not improving.
She's also saying that Pathfinder hasn't gotten any better with the addition of the GMG and the APG. So why would having more supplements come faster help, if she thinks the supplements that HAVE come out haven't done anything to improve the game?
To me, it sounds like she's basically saying "These things suck! So give me more of them!"
My problem is mostly with circumstances like every fighter to see the light of day in Living Greyhawk swinging a spiked chain
I tend to assume that the rush of spiked chain fighters in the early years of LG is why it was nerfed in Pathfinder, but you know? Once people with half a clue got over their infatuation with threatened area and started building non-spiked-chain fighters you started to realize they weren't all that tough after all, mostly because all the spiked chain builds had high INT and high DEX, whereas the truly effective LG melee character builds mostly spent those stat points on killing.
I mean, the spiked chain guy with combat reflexes at APL 2 reaping orcs like wheat as they charge into his threatened area seems great and all, but when you see the pure power fighter dishing out 100 damage in a round without a crit (even with the, let's not say crippling but significantly restrictive banned stuff list of LG) by APL 4 or 6 or so while chainasaurus is getting in his free hits for piddly damage it really does turn you around on the whole thing.
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Yes it does. The lady is suggesting the slow release schedule is why Pathfinder is not improving.She's also saying that Pathfinder hasn't gotten any better with the addition of the GMG and the APG. So why would having more supplements come faster help, if she thinks the supplements that HAVE come out haven't done anything to improve the game?
To me, it sounds like she's basically saying "These things suck! So give me more of them!"
How would writing the books faster make them better? That's all I'm sayin.
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Yes it does. The lady is suggesting the slow release schedule is why Pathfinder is not improving.She's also saying that Pathfinder hasn't gotten any better with the addition of the GMG and the APG. So why would having more supplements come faster help, if she thinks the supplements that HAVE come out haven't done anything to improve the game?
To me, it sounds like she's basically saying "These things suck! So give me more of them!"
The same way turning a hose from a drip to a spray helps you water the lawn quicker? Or put out the fire faster, whichever you prefer.
How would writing the books faster make them better? That's all I'm sayin.
Not writing faster, publishing faster. Which is impossible given Paizo's size.
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The same way turning a hose from a drip to a spray helps you water the lawn quicker? Or put out the fire faster, whichever you prefer.Yes it does. The lady is suggesting the slow release schedule is why Pathfinder is not improving.She's also saying that Pathfinder hasn't gotten any better with the addition of the GMG and the APG. So why would having more supplements come faster help, if she thinks the supplements that HAVE come out haven't done anything to improve the game?
To me, it sounds like she's basically saying "These things suck! So give me more of them!"
Nice Strawman.
You momz a strawoman.
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Here's the problem with that theory, though. WotC presumably had the resources to crank out those books at a nice clip. Minor problem. No one bothered to see how well they worked with all the other crap coming out, including the Forgotten Realms and Eberron stuff. The FR stuff works well together, since Eric L. Boyd and Co. all seemed to work on them and presumably made sure stuff from, say, Serpent Kingdoms didn't screw up too much stuff from, say, Races.
However, once you start throwing the Complete books into the mix, you get Pun Pun.
Just sayin'.
Three books a year with proper editing and playtesting sounds good, even if they're still written for a system that kept too much crappy 3.x baggage. At least it doesn't seem like power creep is going to be much of an issue.
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The same way turning a hose from a drip to a spray helps you water the lawn quicker? Or put out the fire faster, whichever you prefer.
Except she's implying that the additional books are more akin to spraying the fire with gasoline, not water.
Note: Do not try this at home. Unless you want a new home. And you don't like your stuff. And you don't object to a lengthy stay in prison for insurance fraud and arson.
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And really, Paizo seems to be on a 3-4 books / year schedule with the RPG line. I'm not really sure they need to go any faster than that. Hell, I'd say that once Ultimate Combat is out, they might even think about trimming it down to 2 books / year: a rules supplement and a bestiary.
Edit: Although I'd still like to see an Ultimate Skulldugery book for rogues/skill monkeys.
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Actually Derek I don't think Pun-Pun used anything from the Completes.
Again K, I never said it was correct, merely that the two statements are not inherently opposed.
Edit: my bad, master of many forms. I think they refined it down to just 1st level wizard later tho.
Actually, the component that brings it all together, Master of Many Forms, is from Complete Adventurer, iirc.
He also uses complete warrior, complete divine...
Yes it does. The lady is suggesting the slow release schedule is why Pathfinder is not improving.She's also saying that Pathfinder hasn't gotten any better with the addition of the GMG and the APG. So why would having more supplements come faster help, if she thinks the supplements that HAVE come out haven't done anything to improve the game?
To me, it sounds like she's basically saying "These things suck! So give me more of them!"
Actually, one thing Pathfinder desperately needs is more material. Specifically, more innovative material. Right now, it really isn't much more than 3.5 with a little polish thrown on. If Pathfinder wants to really stand out as a thriving game of it's own accord, it needs more source material that does something besides rehash existing 3.5 material with a shiny new wrapper (I could argue, in fact, that a lot of APG is just rehashed 3.5 classes with new names).
The game needs to expand. Badly. The power and balance level of Pathfinder really is different enough from 3.5 where the two do not easily work together without serious tweaking, and thus Pathfinder needs to be able to stand on it's own as a game with lots of variety and new content...which right now, it really doesn't, nice as it is.
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Yes it does. The lady is suggesting the slow release schedule is why Pathfinder is not improving.She's also saying that Pathfinder hasn't gotten any better with the addition of the GMG and the APG. So why would having more supplements come faster help, if she thinks the supplements that HAVE come out haven't done anything to improve the game?
To me, it sounds like she's basically saying "These things suck! So give me more of them!"
Actually, one thing Pathfinder desperately needs is more material. Specifically, more innovative material. Right now, it really isn't much more than 3.5 with a little polish thrown on. If Pathfinder wants to really stand out as a thriving game of it's own accord, it needs more source material that does something besides rehash existing 3.5 material with a shiny new wrapper (I could argue, in fact, that a lot of APG is just rehashed 3.5 classes with new names).
The game needs to expand. Badly. The power and balance level of Pathfinder really is different enough from 3.5 where the two do not easily work together without serious tweaking, and thus Pathfinder needs to be able to stand on it's own as a game with lots of variety and new content...which right now, it really doesn't, nice as it is.
It more sounds like you're not going to get what you want from Paizo. They have an appreciation for the old way, which is why they even have a customer base, really. If all they had were hold outs from 3.x who didn't want to switch over to 4e, they'd be even more niche. But, no, they gained the respect and custom of a passel of old school guys and gals who really dug AD&D back in the day. And have the income to drop $100 a month on their products.
Paizo needed a game system to do what they do best in: write kick ass adventures. The system is really secondary to that. If WotC didn't s%$@ in a bag and name it the GSL, Paizo would probably be doing APs in 4e.
But, since they needed a rules system to fit their product in, they went with what they know and love. D&D that kinda still feels like what Gygax was doing.
Gygax didn't consider trite and played '50s sci-fi lit anthropomorphic animals "innovation", nor did he think they fit in with his Jack Vance/Tolkien/Moorcock/Lieber/Anderson informed pulp fantasy leanings.
The game seems to be doing fine. It doesn't need to alienate a bunch of old school cats right now.
And, again, Monte Cook put out all the furry/non-Vancian stuff you could use in a lifetime out already. And 4e completely revamped everything. I'm sure if you made enough noise, WotC will make a "human with a dog/fox/lion/cute little kitty head" character race for you.
Considering how many 3pps are putting out Pathfinder compatible stuff now, I'm sure someone who shares your furry/non-Vancian casting fetish will publish something to your liking.
To be honest, I would have switched to 4E in a heartbeat and never looked back...but it has this one problem.
I love the races. Exactly the kind of menagerie I appreciate.
I love the powers system. It lets you use everything pretty frequently, and it's easy to keep track of.
But then, we come to the part where 4E falls flat on it's butt: the classes. Let's be honest...4E classes suck. Hard. They have no flavor, no utility, and incorporate some of the most annoyingly "busy" mechanics I have ever seen in D&D (and I used Thac0 once upon a time).
If I could combine 4E's races and power system with Pathfinder's flavor and versatility, I would put that game on an altar and frikkin' worship it. :D
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To be honest, I would have switched to 4E in a heartbeat and never looked back...but it has this one problem.
I love the races. Exactly the kind of menagerie I appreciate.
I love the powers system. It lets you use everything pretty frequently, and it's easy to keep track of.
But then, we come to the part where 4E falls flat on it's butt: the classes. Let's be honest...4E classes suck. Hard. They have no flavor, no utility, and incorporate some of the most annoyingly "busy" mechanics I have ever seen in D&D (and I used Thac0 once upon a time).
If I could combine 4E's races and power system with Pathfinder's flavor and versatility, I would put that game on an altar and frikkin' worship it. :D
The problem with that is, the power system is exactly why 4e is such a snore fest. That and the "gee, can this combat last any longer" stuff.
As far as the races, seriously, port over and update (wouldn't be too hard) the Arcana Evolved races. Plenty of anthropomorphic animals there.
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To be honest, I would have switched to 4E in a heartbeat and never looked back...but it has this one problem.
I love the races. Exactly the kind of menagerie I appreciate.
I love the powers system. It lets you use everything pretty frequently, and it's easy to keep track of.
But then, we come to the part where 4E falls flat on it's butt: the classes. Let's be honest...4E classes suck. Hard. They have no flavor, no utility, and incorporate some of the most annoyingly "busy" mechanics I have ever seen in D&D (and I used Thac0 once upon a time).
If I could combine 4E's races and power system with Pathfinder's flavor and versatility, I would put that game on an altar and frikkin' worship it. :D
The problem with that is, the power system is exactly why 4e is such a snore fest. That and the "gee, can this combat last any longer" stuff.
As far as the races, seriously, port over and update (wouldn't be too hard) the Arcana Evolved races. Plenty of anthropomorphic animals there.
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It more sounds like you're not going to get what you want from Paizo. They have an appreciation for the old way, which is why they even have a customer base, really. If all they had were hold outs from 3.x who didn't want to switch over to 4e, they'd be even more niche. But, no, they gained the respect and custom of a passel of old school guys and gals who really dug AD&D back in the day. And have the income to drop $100 a month on their products.
Paizo needed a game system to do what they do best in: write kick ass adventures. The system is really secondary to that. If WotC didn't s@@! in a bag and name it the GSL, Paizo would probably be doing APs in 4e.
But, since they needed a rules system to fit their product in, they went with what they know and love. D&D that kinda still feels like what Gygax was doing.
Gygax didn't consider trite and played '50s sci-fi lit anthropomorphic animals "innovation", nor did he think they fit in with his Jack Vance/Tolkien/Moorcock/Lieber/Anderson informed pulp fantasy leanings.
The game seems to be doing fine. It doesn't need to alienate a bunch of old school cats right now.
And, again, Monte Cook put out all the furry/non-Vancian stuff you could use in a lifetime out already. And 4e completely revamped everything. I'm sure if you made enough noise, WotC will make a "human with a dog/fox/lion/cute little kitty head" character race for you.
Considering how many 3pps are putting out Pathfinder compatible stuff now, I'm sure someone who shares your furry/non-Vancian casting fetish will publish something to your liking.
+1; as an "Old School Cat" I think you've hit the nail on the head here. Add Lovecraft and Sir A.C. Doyle and that's the stew I'm smellin'.
As for the topic, so far since PF came out the things I've had a major issue with are:
A) Adjusting to the new Grapple stuff, and then after finally doing that realizing it's almost as bad as the old Grapple stuff.
B) Rules lawyer players who are 100% WRONG getting their way in PFS because they are the loudest person at the table (this only happened to me once, but it was bad enough to make me think twice about participating in organized play ever again).
C) The Bestiary and encounter design rules from the Core Rulebook with CR designed for sub-optimized players. This was one of the biggest hurdles I had to leap when I began GMing PF as the PCs just wiped everything without taking a scratch the first couple sessions, and I was a bit discouraged because I used the guidelines they gave me for their game and none of us had much fun. I've adjusted and learned a lot about game balance, but having to tweak everything so that it's an actual challenge is more work than I was used to with 3.X
Other than those 3 things, nothing else springs to mind.
Between the PFRPG, the Golarion setting, these messageboards, and the Paizo staff being amazingly accessible, responsive, and friendly, Paizo has made a lifelong customer and diehard fan out of this OSC.
@ Ladywurm: I cannot speak for the other things, but a bout new splats...
basing my assumption on the APG, the game DID improve with the new splatbook.
A lot of "holes", PC build wise, I found in Rogue and expecially Barbarian, I found them in the APG.
Is filled with little things. New mundane items versus gaze attacks. I need a polearm with a 19-20 crit range? It's there! Sometimes it needs some time to understand how can make work this class or that feat. A good part of the book does not work immediately, but pay attention and you will be rewarded.
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If you fix the caster/melee balance issues you end up with 4e. Magic is no longer magical, it's just fluff that exists to make Wizard powers different from Fighter powers.As the thread says what do you think are the bad elements of Pathfinder. Please keep the topic civil.It didn't fix the caster/melee power discrepency at higher levels. It moved away from save or die, but still left one save or die spell in at most levels.Honestly how can you fix caster/melee issues.
I mean a fighter is mundane and limited. Caster are virtually unlimited.
Personally I don't see the problem. The fighter is still fun to play at high levels even when the Casters are bending reality all around you.
I know I'm rather late quoting this, and someone beyond me has probably already addressed it, but that's not the only way to do this.
The inherent problem is people tend to try to think of their favorite fantasy heroes as being high level characters, when they're not. Beowulf (the guy who ripped off a trolls arm and beat him to death with it) was probably a level 5 or 6 barbarian. I HIGHLY doubt Herakles himself was over level 10ish.
The key to fixing caster/melee balance without 'demystifying magic' is to 'mystify' the non-casters (anime has some good examples of this.) Granted once you do that, you get people b@~*#ing about 'anime in their fantasy' so you can't please everybody lol.
The thing is, all that is is fluff. If they didn't name crap "Seven Winds out of My Magic Ass" in Bo9S, I probably wouldn't hate it as much. Well, I dislike the wuxia feel of the mechanics too, and that they were the alpha for much of what I dislike about 4e, but that's another story.
Just make the flavor text reflect Beowulf, Heracles, Ajax, whatever, and, yeah, keep Cowboy Bebop out of my Western fantasy, and it's all good.
But, you're 100% right that the "mundane" classes need to be a lot less mundane once their wizbang counterparts are bending reality with regularity. Not magical, per se (although Heracles was, technically, a demi-god and probably a bit beyond 10th level - redirecting a river a couple of miles to clean some stables isn't even doable by a tenth level wizard in just one afternoon, nor is holding up the entire sky for a morning while someone fetches some stuff for you - my only real disagreement with you examples), but definitely supernatural.
And these should be class features at higher levels, not magic items. That's a crap cop out, as far as I'm concerned.
Hell, Conan wasn't ever above 10th level in his career, and he never did anything all that outrageous in the "bend reality" sense, yet he regularly killed lesser gods and wizards. And he wasn't a Christmas Tree either.
If Paizo wants to really flex its love of pulp, make Conan possible.
Well, we already had two leader type classes in the core rules, the bard and the cleric, for starters, I don't really see a problem with the cavalier and his morale support of the group.
The power system does indeed look like an elegant solution at first glance, but it's also rather railodey. The players often start thinking about how they could use the powers they have at hand, rather than doing what they want to. And they don't allow repetition of the action mostly. The Essentials started to remedy this a bit for the martial classes but there are still things that PFRPG allows all day long without resorting to the fudging system built into DMG. If you want powers, then there is nothing easier than writing a shortened variants of the actions you use often on cards.
GRAPPLE
standard action
CMB vs. CMD (only one free hand -4 penalty to CMB)
You and your opponent gain grappled condition, move the target to adjecent open space, if the target is not already adjecent.
maintain: standard action, CMB +5 vs. CMD
Available actions, choose one upon successful maintain:
- Move with the target up to half your speed, place target in any adjecent space at the end of the move. Target can attempt to break grapple if his movement ends in hazardous conditions as a free action (target CMB +4 vs. your CMD).
- Damage the target with: Unarmed strike, natural attack, armor spikes, light or one-handed weapon. You can inflict nonlethal damage.
- The target gains pinned condition, you lose DEX bonus to AC.
- Tie up CMB -10 vs. CMD, the target is automatically pined with DC to escape equal to CMB +20, this action suceeds automatically on unconsious, pinned or similarily restrained target.
break: free action
Point taken Derek. I'm not all that familiar with everything Heracles did, just thinking of some of his accomplishments that I did know and putting things into scale.
And of course I'm not putting Cowboy Bebop into your Fantasy, that's sci fi. If I'm going to put anime in it's likely going to be something more like Berserk ;)
Actually, i think that nothing can better describe how HP work in D&D/PF better than Berserk.. but this would be an entirely other thread ;)
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Point taken Derek. I'm not all that familiar with everything Heracles did, just thinking of some of his accomplishments that I did know and putting things into scale.
And of course I'm not putting Cowboy Bebop into your Fantasy, that's sci fi. If I'm going to put anime in it's likely going to be something more like Berserk ;)
To be honest, my anime knowledge is limited to Akira, old Battle of the Planets (but not the horrible rescripted ones that came out not long ago, the ones on tv in the 70s), Cowboy Bebop, Vampire Hunter D, and...well, that's about it. The whole BESM art style kinda bugs me too much to delve too far into the art form.
Yeah, dudes like Heracles and Gilgamesh don't fit well into the D&D level system, since much of what they did was very fantastic, but some CR appropriate stuff for, say, a tenth level character gave them fits. Story telling being different from gaming and all (well, unless you mope and wear black eyeliner, I suppose).
And, again, it isn't so much the abilities themselves, it is the "Crouching Tiger" flavor it usually winds up getting hung on it. Seriously, Asian flavored stuff has seeped so far into Western geek culture I feel like I'm living in a William Gibson novel sometimes.
Seconded....
Well, what about the ULTIMATE CRAFTS with alternative prices and crafting system worked in Paizo style for those who are indeed interested?
*Looks seriously at Paizo staff*
Please make that other thread somewhere (not sure which board it belongs in, but I'm sure you'll figure it out lol,) as I'm really curious what you have to say concerning that.
To answer quickly (open anew thread if we further derail): take a look on how Guts takes the blows from enemies.
His enormous experience makes him able to partially deflect blows that cannot be dodged. The blow lands, but with less strenght.
Moreover, his superior strenght and TRAINING (i.e., high level) makes him able to "absorb" part of the blow that could wipe a weaker soldier.
This scream high (at least, relatively speking) level fighter to me, with more d10 + con to HP.
BTW, Guts is awesome, but there is nothing he does that a warrior in pathfinder cannot do - even in his setting I didn't see so many save-or-suck to test his resistance to spells ;)
However, once you start throwing the Complete books into the mix, you get Pun Pun.
THOU SHALT NOT SPEAK HIS NAME IN VAIN!
/joke
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Yes it does. The lady is suggesting the slow release schedule is why Pathfinder is not improving.She's also saying that Pathfinder hasn't gotten any better with the addition of the GMG and the APG. So why would having more supplements come faster help, if she thinks the supplements that HAVE come out haven't done anything to improve the game?
To me, it sounds like she's basically saying "These things suck! So give me more of them!"
Actually, one thing Pathfinder desperately needs is more material. Specifically, more innovative material. Right now, it really isn't much more than 3.5 with a little polish thrown on. If Pathfinder wants to really stand out as a thriving game of it's own accord, it needs more source material that does something besides rehash existing 3.5 material with a shiny new wrapper (I could argue, in fact, that a lot of APG is just rehashed 3.5 classes with new names).
The game needs to expand. Badly. The power and balance level of Pathfinder really is different enough from 3.5 where the two do not easily work together without serious tweaking, and thus Pathfinder needs to be able to stand on it's own as a game with lots of variety and new content...which right now, it really doesn't, nice as it is.
How do you suggest that happen without writing a completely new system? Given the OGL legacy, there are only so many ways you can innovate on "roll d20, add modifiers, check versus the DC."
WTF is Pun Pun?
A thought exercise on rules manipulation.
Ahh...links or it didn't happen :)
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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If you fix the caster/melee balance issues you end up with 4e. Magic is no longer magical, it's just fluff that exists to make Wizard powers different from Fighter powers.
I know I'm rather late quoting this, and someone beyond me has probably already addressed it, but that's not the only way to do this.
The inherent problem is people tend to try to think of their favorite fantasy heroes as being high level characters, when they're not. Beowulf (the guy who ripped off a trolls arm and beat him to death with it) was probably a level 5 or 6 barbarian. I HIGHLY doubt Herakles himself was over level 10ish.
kyrt-ryder, I'm going to begin a different thread on this topic, because it's a discussion I'd like to continue without further derailing the main conversation here.