I'm sure you could argue it's magic, but Zolo/Zoro's ship slashing and Sanji's firey leg were totally described as mundane techniques from my perspective lol.
Well, why would I argue it's magic, when it will undermine my point? Which is, even these superhuman ways of swordinating and asskicking were totally not enough not only to compete, but to prevent them from being one-sidedly slaughtered by the top league guys. So haki appeared to make fights against said guys less than entirely dependent on finding plot device weaknesses.
There was a request for some fighter vs monk builds at level 6. Here's a sample of what I consider fair comparisons. It also shows the effect of flat bonuses (such as a bard's inspire courage) and how it favors the monk in comparison to the two fighters. I think the results definitely show that the monk is within 10% of the fighter's DPR.
The two-handed fighter has massive damage output, but weaknesses in other departments. The monk can only match that damage output on his ki attacks, but holds a better all-round defense.
Level 6 hero
Stat Array: 15 14 13 12 10 8
Target: AC 19 (CR 6 monster, according to bestiary)
Str 15 + 1 + 2 + 2 (racial)
Dex 14
Con 13 + 2
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 8
Feats: weapon focus, weapon specialization, power attack, dodge, ?, ?, ?, ?
Fullplate +1
Heavy shield +1
Longsword +1
Belt of Str&Con +2
= just a bit above 16000gp
Attack 14/9 = 6(bab) + 5(str) + 1(focus) + 1(training) + 1(magic)
Damage 1d8 + 9 = 5(str) + 1(training) + 1(magic) + 2(specialization)
Expected damage roughly: 18.225 = 0.8 * 13.5 + 0.55 * 13.5
Expected power attack: 20.125 = 0.7 * 17.5 + 0.45 * 17.5
Fighter AC: 26/13/23 = 10(armor) + 2(dex) + 3(shield) + 1(dodge)
Fighter Saves: 7/4/3
Str 15 + 1 + 2 + 2 (racial)
Dex 14
Con 13 + 2
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 8
Feats: weapon focus, weapon specialization, power attack, dodge, ?, ?, ?, ?
Fullplate +1
Greatsword +1
Belt of Str&Con +2
Cloak of resistance +1
= just a bit below 16000gp
Attack 14/9 = 6(bab) + 5(str) + 1(focus) + 1(training) + 1(magic)
Damage 2d6 + 11 = 7(str) + 1(training) + 1(magic) + 2(specialization)
Expected damage: 24.3 = 0.8 * 18 + 0.55 * 18
Expected power attack: 27.6 = 0.7 * 24 + 0.45 * 24
Fighter AC: 23/13/20 = 10(armor) + 2(dex) + 1(dodge)
Fighter Saves: 8/5/4
Str 14 + 2 + 2(racial)
Dex 13
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 15 + 1 + 2
Cha 8
Feats: dodge, weapon focus, improved trip, power attack, ?, ?, ?
Belt Str+2
Band Wis+2
+1 Brass Knuckles
Ring of Deflection +1
20 x Potion of Mage Armor
a bit below 16000gp
Attack 10 / 10 / (10ki) / 5 = 6(bab,flurry) + 4(str) + 1(focus) + 1(magic) - 2(flurry)
Damage 1d8 + 5 = 4(str) + 1(magic)
Expected damage: 14.725 = 2 * 0.6 * 9.5 + 0.35 * 9.5
Expected power attack: 16.875 = 2 * 0.5 * 13.5 + 0.25 * 13.5
With ki point: 20.425 = 3 * 0.6 * 9.5 + 0.35 * 9.5
With ki point (power): 23.625 = 3 * 0.5 * 13.5 + 0.25 * 13.5
AC 22/18/20 = 4(wis) + 1(monk) + 1(dex) + 1(dodge) + 4(armor, potion) + + 1(deflection)
Monk Saves: 6/6/10
Str 14 + 2 + 2(racial)
Dex 13
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 15 + 1 + 2
Cha 8
Feats: dodge, improved trip, power attack, ?, ?, ?, ?
Belt Str+2
Band Wis+2
+1 Brass Knuckles
Ring of Deflection +1
20 x Potion of Mage Armor
a bit below 16000gp
Attack 10 / 10 / (10ki) / 5 = 6(bab,flurry) + 4(str) + 1(focus) + 1(magic) - 2(flurry)
Damage 1d8 + 7 = 4(str) + 1(magic) + 2(specialization)
Expected damage: 17.825 = 2 * 0.6 * 11.5 + 0.35 * 11.5
Expected power attack: 19.375 = 2 * 0.5 * 15.5 + 0.25 * 15.5
With ki point: 24.725 = 3 * 0.6 * 11.5 + 0.35 * 11.5
With ki point (power): 27.125 = 3 * 0.5 * 15.5 + 0.25 * 15.5
AC 22/18/20 = 4(wis) + 1(monk) + 1(dex) + 1(dodge) + 4(armor, potion) + + 1(deflection)
Monk Saves: 6/6/10
6 stunning fists at DC 17, high save for CR6 enemies is 9; this is an effective chance of landing a stun of roughly:
High save: 21% = 0.6 (chance to hit) * 0.35 (chance of creature not saving)
Low save: 33% = 0.6 (chance to hit) * 0.55 (chance of creature not saving)
Assuming you stun in desperate times, and use only the 21% stun chance:
Monk, normal
expected damage: 15.523 = 0.79 * (2 * 0.6 * 9.5 + 0.35 * 9.5) + 0.21 * (0.6 * 9.5 + 0.8 * 9.5 + 0.55 * 9.5)
expected damage (ki): 26.125 = 0.79 * (3 * 0.6 * 9.5 + 0.35 * 9.5) + 0.21 * (0.6 * 9.5 + 2* 0.8 * 9.5 + 0.55 * 9.5)
Monk, weapon adept:
expected damage: 18.791 = 0.79 * (2 * 0.6 * 11.5 + 0.35 * 11.5) + 0.21 * (0.6 * 11.5 + 0.8 * 11.5 + 0.55 * 11.5)
expected damage (ki): 31.625= 0.79 * (3 * 0.6 * 11.5 + 0.35 * 11.5) + 0.21 * (0.6 * 11.5 + 2* 0.8 * 11.5 + 0.55 * 11.5)
Observe how the party bard (+2 inspire courage) affects the stats. Note how the normal (non ki) expected damage of the weapon adept is less than a sword-n-board fighter before bard song, but higher after bard song.
Fighter, sword-n-board:
Expected damage: 24.025 = 0.9 * 15.5 + 0.65 * 15.5 (original: 18.225, x1.32 increase)
Fighter, two-hander:
Expected damage: 31 = 0.9 * 20 + 0.65 * 20 (original: 24.3, x1.27 increase)
Monk, normal
Expected damage: 21.275 = 2 * 0.7 * 11.5 + 0.45 * 11.5 (original: 14.725, x1.44 increase)
Expected damage (ki): 29.325 = 3 * 0.7 * 11.5 + 0.45 * 11.5 (original: 20.425, x1.44 increase)
Monk, weapon adept
Expected damage: 24.975 = 2 * 0.7 * 13.5 + 0.45 * 13.5 (original: 17.825, x1.40 increase)
With ki point: 34.425 = 3 * 0.7 * 13.5 + 0.45 * 13.5 (original: 24.725, x1.39 increase)
Monk, weapon adept, stunning fist with ki attack, expected damage:
36.126 = 0.79 * (3 * 0.7 * 13.5 + 0.45 * 13.5) + 0.21 * (0.7 * 13.5 + 2 * 0.9 * 13.5 + 0.65 * 13.5)
Which pretty much explains the conceptual dissonance between your views of a Fighter (which seem, at least to me, strongly influenced by the "demon warrior of 1000 hells with a 4m sword that fires meteors with evey swing" anime feel) and the old crowd.The difference between what you call "anime feel" fighter and the old crowd's image of fighter is that the latter sucks. No, I'm not joking or exaggerating in the slightest. Players of Conan or Fafhrd&Grey Mouser were basically forced to suck their respective GMs' c%*@# for McGuffins allowing them to actually resolve the current plot about half the time. Players of Moorcock's non-casters often needed major artifacts for their characters to survive the plot at all. Players of non-casters on Vance's Dying Earth mostly just resigned to being buttmonkeys from the beginning. In all of these verses magic users and magical beings tended to be superior to fighters, with only the plot allowing the latter to overcome the odds.
And mind you, in the anime/manga people who can just stab people really well tend to fall far below the casters, or their local equivalents, too. Even One Piece finally surrendered and made outright magic accessible to every high-end physical combatant, just so that they can compete at all with high-end superpower users.
Have you actually played in the Lankhmar setting? It nerfed casters to the point of being nearly unplayable. All the casting times were increased to the point where you couldn't get a spell off to save your life. That's not an understatement.
Moorcock's worlds are also very different. In fact, each world is different from the others. I preferred the Elric saga. In that one, casters were also very different and it was the non-casters that did the best unless a pact was made. The very high majority of people in the world were non-casters.
As for the anime comment, ToB did change the feel of the melee classes but it didn't really give them much in the long run. The biggest issue with non-casters/non-ToB classes is that the abilities are not flavorful. There are plenty of ways to describe what the characters are doing that is more than "I swing and I hit." One of the reasons I have seen things degenerate to that is that when the players want to describe an interesting action the DM wants to apply a bunch of unnecessary modifiers instead of seeing the action as descriptive only.
I thought I should add a guided monk too; the result is essentially the same in terms of DPR; but the more optimal stat usage allows for higher AC.
Str 8
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 13
Wis 15 + 1 + 2 + 2 (racial)
Cha 10
Feats: dodge, combat expertise, improved trip, power attack, ?, ?, ?
Guided amulet
Band Wis+2
Ring of Deflection +1
Ioun stone, dusty prism
20 x Potion of Mage Armor
exactly 16000gp
Attack 10 / 10 / (10ki) / 5 = 6(bab,flurry) + 5(wis) + 1(focus) - 2(flurry)
Damage 1d8 + 7 = 5(wis) + 2(specialization)
Expected damage: 17.825 = 2 * 0.6 * 11.5 + 0.35 * 11.5
Expected power attack: 19.375 = 2 * 0.5 * 15.5 + 0.25 * 15.5
With ki point: 24.725 = 3 * 0.6 * 11.5 + 0.35 * 11.5
With ki point (power): 27.125 = 3 * 0.5 * 15.5 + 0.25 * 15.5
AC 25/21/23 = 5(wis) + 1(monk) + 2(dex) + 1(dodge) + 4(armor, potion) + 1(deflection) + 1(insight)
Monk Saves: 6/7/10
I said it before, I'll say it again.
Remove the full attack action. Just let characters do a full attack as a standard action.
While I could agree with you, this would lead to the problem of monsters (and NPCs) dealing HUGE amounts of damage with a Standard Action, too.
And even if we would limit it to Iterative Attacks only (as opposed to Natural Primary and/or Secondary Attacks), there are a LOT of creatures which are weapon-dependent (Giants, Monsters with class levels, most Outsiders...) and would become meat-mincers (Marilith, anyone ?...).
It's a solution which would need a total overhaul of CR to be workable.
Just my 2c.
Not to mention the ability for a dragon to use ALL its attacks every round bar breath weapon and crush. You'd then get players moaning they weren't tough/high AC enough and that would need fixing.
EDIT: To clarify, referring to the fact most of the time a dragon has to land to do mega-damage, making it slightly more vulnerable, the above presumes a dragon could fly up to something, rip it to pieces, then move normally next round, rather than choosing to stay airborne and use fly-by, or to land, get one attack and then next round get full use of its iterative attacks.
|
(if you try, the monsters will just eat the party at two-digit levels - at the latest, in my Paizo AP games melee types were unable to fight undebuffed enemies without dying alot by level 6-7 - unless you rewrite them too, at which point you have a new goddamn edition)
Why is a new edition a bad thing?
OK Lorekeeper so with a ki boosted flurry (so 7 rounds a day with your build)the monk is about 4 dpr below the 2hd fighter which works out to around 17% difference not the 10 you were estimating, and of course not assuming crits from what I could glean from your math which sadly will push the envelope a bit farther apart. On non extra attack rounds he falls even further behind. I am unconvinced that that drop is mitigated by the other toys he brings to the table. If it was at the 10% you mentioned in your earlier post, I would say that it is purely ignorance fueling the "hate"
To correct false statements:
Have you actually played in the Lankhmar setting? It nerfed casters to the point of being nearly unplayable. All the casting times were increased to the point where you couldn't get a spell off to save your life. That's not an understatement.
This is relevant to the books how? The books where the best fighters in the world were errand boys to the best wizards and you had dudes whom you couldn't kill because they hid their internal organs in a secret place, and so on. While Lankhmar in general is very low-level, compared to a typical DnDland, and adventures are generally low-key, so no one really gets to be uber, Swords against Sorcery still tended to be struggle against the odds. Never mind that almost any magical being was a grave threat, either defeatable only through finding its weakness or something the characters ran from.
Moorcock's worlds are also very different. In fact, each world is different from the others. I preferred the Elric saga. In that one, casters were also very different and it was the non-casters that did the best unless a pact was made. The very high majority of people in the world were non-casters.
Olololol. Elric Saga? The world where, unless you can bargain with outsiders, the titular characters will kill you and your whole castle without save? Where unless you have serious magic, artifacts or at least magical monsters in your disposal, you can choose between being a sidekick to someone who has, or being a scenery (which gets blown up with abandon)?
As about other well-known Moorcock characters, Corum relies on his artifacts to survive every serious encounter and Hawkmoon lives in a low-magic world and fights almost exlusively normal humans. Compared to Elric, they illustrate excellently the underpoweredness inherent in "old-school" fighters.
To correct false statements:
This is relevant to the books how? The books where the best fighters in the world were errand boys to the best wizards and you had dudes whom you couldn't kill because they hid their internal organs in a secret place, and so on. While Lankhmar in general is very low-level, compared to a typical DnDland, and adventures are generally low-key, so no one really gets to be uber, Swords against Sorcery still tended to be struggle against the odds. Never mind that almost any magical being was a grave threat, either defeatable only through finding its weakness or something the characters ran from.
Have you actually played in the Lankhmar setting? It nerfed casters to the point of being nearly unplayable. All the casting times were increased to the point where you couldn't get a spell off to save your life. That's not an understatement.
It's extremely relevant because the actual DnD setting didn't give the fighters anything super special. Instead it crippled the casters. I really hated playing in that setting.
Moorcock's worlds are also very different. In fact, each world is different from the others. I preferred the Elric saga. In that one, casters were also very different and it was the non-casters that did the best unless a pact was made. The very high majority of people in the world were non-casters.
Olololol. Elric Saga? The world where, unless you can bargain with outsiders, the titular characters will kill you and your whole castle without save? Where unless you have serious magic, artifacts or at least magical monsters in your disposal, you can choose between being a sidekick to someone who has, or being a scenery (which gets blown up with abandon)?
As about other well-known Moorcock characters, Corum relies on his artifacts to survive every serious encounter and Hawkmoon lives in a low-magic world and fights almost exlusively normal humans. Compared to Elric, they illustrate excellently the underpoweredness inherent in "old-school" fighters.
Umm, I don't think we read the same books. Moorcock didn't use a lot of casters in his books. Even the infamous Stormbringer was used by a caster. Elric didn't need the artifact because he was a fighter. He needed it because he was frail. Hawkmoon fighting mostly normal humans is because that was how the world was set up. It was Hawkmoon's destiny. Corum's destiny lay along a different path and needed his artifacts, not because he was simply a fighter but because the Eternal Champion needs to eventually win.
The old-school fighters did very well. The game has always required magic items for characters to do well as they level. Not a single edition of DnD required artifacts though.
This monk can be a good boss killer, and can definitely be considered a threat. (Not optimized)
Init +9; Senses Low-light, Perception +15,
DEFENSE
AC 25, touch 21, flat-footed 23 (+1 size, +1 Dex, +2 natural, +1 dodge, +2 deflection, +6 misc, +2 , ) hp 52 (10d8)+10 Fort +10, Ref +10, Will +13, +2 vs. illusion spells or effects
OFFENSE
Speed 50 ft., Fast Movement, High Jump, Slow Fall
Melee Brass Knuckles +1 (Guided) +12/+7 (1d8+4)
Melee flurry of blows +13/+13/+13/+8 (1d8+4)
STATISTICS
Str 5, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 20 Base Atk +7; CMB +10 (+12 grapple); CMD 23 (25 vs grapple)
TRAITS
Fast Talker, Excitable
FEATS
Agile Maneuvers, Deep Drinker, Combat Reflexes, Deceitful, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Skill Focus (Bluff), Spring Attack, Stunning Fist
SKILLS (relevant)
Bluff +35
Special Qualities
AC Bonus, Fast Movement, Gnome Magic, Gift of Tongues, High Jump, Keen Senses, Maneuver Training, Drunken Ki, Drunken Strength, Obsessive, Purity of Body, Slow Fall, Weapon Familiarity, Wholeness of Body
Possessions
belt of incredible dex + 4; bracers of armor +2; cloak of resistance +2; headband of alluring charisma +4; brass knuckles +1 (guided); ring of protection +2; mulberry pentacle ioun stone
leaves 2k for potions
Key abilities
DRUNKEN KI (with deep drinker):
A drunken master can drink a tankard of ale or strong alcohol and gain two temporary ki point. The act of drinking is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
BEWILDERING KOAN (Gnomes of Golarion):
Prerequisites: Bluff 1 rank, ki pool class feature, gnome.
Benefit: As a swift action, spend 1 point from your ki pool and make a Bluff check by asking a creature one of the impossible questions you ponder when meditating. If the creature fails its check, you choose whether it loses its next action or you gain a +2 bonus on all damage rolls you make against that creature for 1 round.
Tactic:
Activate Bewildering Koan on boss every turn. Boss has no actions for rest of battle. If went first on initiative, boss is permanently flatfooted until monk is taken care of.
OK Lorekeeper so with a ki boosted flurry (so 7 rounds a day with your build)the monk is about 4 dpr below the 2hd fighter which works out to around 17% difference not the 10 you were estimating, and of course not assuming crits from what I could glean from your math which sadly will push the envelope a bit farther apart. On non extra attack rounds he falls even further behind. I am unconvinced that that drop is mitigated by the other toys he brings to the table. If it was at the 10% you mentioned in your earlier post, I would say that it is purely ignorance fueling the "hate"
So you use the fighter that deals the highest possible damage for this? Because in that case the sword-n-board fighter also is not viable, cause he is obviously far below par in terms of DPR. You should also take account of the fact that flat bonuses have a greater impact on the monk. As I showed, having a party bard will make the weapon adept monk have more (non-ki) damage than the sword-n-board fighter.
You seem to overestimate for how many rounds a boss fight lasts typically. 7 rounds of ki is plenty. You certainly cannot just use the worst scenario for the monk and say his ki attacks don't count. You'd have to measure it 50/50 or 66/33 or some mixture.
Personally I think any melee class that is within 25% of the DPR of the highest DPR fighter build is a-okay. But okay. Here's the monk that is within 8.7% of a 2hander fighter (normal expected damage).
Str 15 + 1 + 2 + 2 (racial)
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 13 + 2
Cha 8
Feats: dodge, improved trip, power attack, ?, ?, ?, ?
Belt Str+2
Band Wis+2
Ring of Deflection +1
+1 Brass Knuckles
20 x Potion of Mage Armor
Attack 10 / 10 / (10ki) / 5 = 6(bab,flurry) + 5(str) + 1(focus) + 1(magic) - 2(flurry)
Damage 1d8 + 8 = 5(str) + 1(magic) + 2(specialization)
Expected damage: 21.25 = 2 * 0.65 * 12.5 + 0.4 * 12.5
Expected power attack: 23.1 = 2 * 0.55 * 16.5 + 0.3 * 16.5
With ki point: 29.375 = 3 * 0.65 * 12.5 + 0.4 * 12.5
With ki point (power): 32.175 = 3 * 0.55 * 16.5 + 0.3 * 16.5
Expected damage (bard): 29 = 2 * 0.75 * 14.5 + 0.5 * 14.5
With ki point (bard): 39.875 = 3 * 0.75 * 14.5 + 0.5 * 14.5
AC 21/17/18 = 2(wis) + 1(monk) + 2(dex) + 1(dodge) + 4(armor, potion) + 1(deflection)
Monk Saves: 6/7/7
:D
Sword and Board changed a lot from 3.5 to PF. If you play well in a dungeon environment, you can deal damages, push and trip with a single charge.
OF COURSE you do not deal damage as a TH with a move + hit. So what?
We REALLY want to reach this point? Every choice must do the same to be considered viable? It has already been done, and frankly, I do not consider it such a great game.
Lore
You did not build the highest DPR fighter build I was gonna let that go. Statistically speaking scimitar/falchion/elven thinblade (18+crit) builds yield more damage
Your most recent build has a 15 WIS so you are clearly not planning on too many SF and have a lower Ki pool cutting down on the number of enhanced flurry rounds (5 rather than 7)
This is the whole point of the MAD critique and why Guided, pounce, and other suggestions have been brought up
5-7 rounds in a system that averages 4-5 encounters per day means that it is a limited resource and yes against a boss fight should be plenty but what does that mean for the 3-4 fights before hand?
The unarmed monk still under-performs by more than 10% the sword and board fighter who also has a significant AC/HP advantage at the cost of a weak will save that we have all agreed is the fighters major weakness. You were the one popping off at the mouth that a monk was within that margin. You are obviously changing your mind and that's OK the question here is "does this significant difference in damage output engender the hatred against the class"?
Lore
You did not build the highest DPR fighter build I was gonna let that go. Statistically speaking scimitar/falchion/elven thinblade (18+crit) builds yield more damage
7 rounds in a system that averages 4-5 encounters per day means that it is a limited resource and yes against a boss fight should be plenty but what does that mean for the 3-4 fights before hand?
The unarmed monk still under-performs by more than 10% the sword and board fighter who also has a significant AC/HP advantage at the cost of a weak will save that we have all agreed is the fighters major weakness. You were the one popping off at the mouth that a monk was within that margin. You are obviously changing your mind and that's OK the question here is "does this significant difference in damage output engender the hatred against the class"?
I'm not changing my mind at all; I think we're looking at the same results and disagreeing on its relevance. Yes, both fighter and monk can have even higher DPR; the builds given are fair enough for the purpose of discussion.
I said that the monk can perform within 10% of the fighter. I've shown that he can. The results above are sufficient for that. You cannot expect any build to be within 10% of the *highest* possible damage of the class that has the highest all round damage output.
If anybody here contends that a sword-n-board fighter is not a viable melee character, then that person needs to re-evaluate the purpose of the thread. We're not here to show that a particular fighter with a particular build can consistently do 40+ DPR at level 6.
Instead, I'm showing that the monk performs well within the margins of DPR set by the fighter. Let me summarize in order of descending DPR of normal expected damage (non-ki):
31.000 - Fighter, two-hander, with bard:
29.000 - Monk, weapon adept, strength focus, with bard
24.975 - Monk, weapon adept, with bard:
24.025 - Fighter, sword-n-board, with bard:
21.275 - Monk, normal, with bard:
Yes, you can make a fighter that has even higher DPR than the 2-hander given. Not massively higher, just higher. But nobody would contend that the 2-hander is an unviable combat build. Likewise, the monks can still be improved as well, there are plenty of options available for everybody - I'm not making the uber-builds - the builds are just supposed to be good base-lines for the sake of discussion.
What the stats above show vividly is the impact that the party has on the monk's DPR - all things being equal, a + for the monk is bigger than a + for the fighter. The normal monk is about 11% away from a sword-n-board fighter, the weapon adept-strength focus monk is about 6.5% away from the 2-hander.
The list goes on:
- provided the fighter and monk are flanking the target, the +2 to hit increases the DPR of the monk more than it does that of the fighter.
- if our heroes have height advantage, the +1 to hit increases the DPR of the monk more than the fighter
- if a cleric casts a CL8 greater magic weapon on everybody, the monk's DPR will increase more than the fighter's
- if somebody trips or stuns the enemy, the resulting effective increase to DPR is higher in the monk than the fighter
- etc
If you have a couple of these extra factors kicking in, the monk will have a higher DPR than the fighter. These are good results that I think show that the monk has no trouble being a player in melee.
Lore none of your builds match the numbers in your current list (non ki) so where are they coming from?
While the monk's DPR will % wise increase more(ofg his base) if those factors occur but they still benfit all players so it dosent really decrease the margin enough.
You may be convinced that the monk does what it needs and does it well enough, but tell me how your numbers are going to convince other players that the monk isnt an effective melee combatant? How do we use your number crunching to increase the love?
You need to click on the spoiler called "Observe the bard". Its really just adding +2 to hit and +2 to damage (i.e. inspire courage). The monk weapon adept with strength focus (posted a bit below the original post) is like the normal weapon adept, but the high stat is set into strength (like the fighter). Otherwise there is nothing exotic or new about them.
All the numbers were copy-pasted from prior posts. The numbers are real and that simple.
I appreciate that the posts are quite long, so its easy to miss - but you need to look at all of it to appreciate.
I found the math TY, now we just need to account for crits 5% for monk, 10% using your figher builds and if we are going to assume APG (for the knuckles) lets give the 2hd fighter furious focus so he takes no penalty to hit on his first attack when PA then we can have the best possible set of numbers to show the monks damage is really comparable.
I just don't remember the calcualtions for crit as it more complicated than the 5-10% (damage*2) added with the confirm rolls.
I'm convinced that the numbers are already sufficient proof. If you want more numbers I'll ask you to provide them. Some things to consider:
Sure you can account for crits and the like. Note that at that level the monk may as well be using a templesword (same crit range as the greatsword) - same 1d8 weapon damage, but bigger threat range. So relative ratios will not significantly diverge.
Furious focus is fine. The monk can take it too (though the effect will be bigger for the fighter).
How are you going to account for the higher damage from monk abilities? Ki-points? It is only 5 times in the weapon adept monk with strength focus - but it is still there. And +2 more times for every time the monk takes Extra Ki.
And the higher damage from stunning fist? Only 6 times a day, but in the case of the weapon adept with strength it would on average move DPR from 29 to 31.54 damage (math omitted), not including the benefits to the rest of the team and disarming for free.
Assuming that the monk only goes nova (stuns and ki) in the big boss fight, for 5 to 9 (feat choices) rounds he'll produce an expected DPR of
and the boss will be stunned about one third of the time.
Yes. He cannot do it all day long. Neither can the Wizard cast SoDs all day long, or the Paladin smite all day long. At level 6 to produce an expected DPR of 50+ and a potent disable (stun) for one fight is great. And if the monk has Enforcer feat, he's nearly guaranteed to inflict the shaken condition on the boss as well.
...
I'm fine with some people disliking the monk. I don't like casters, so I don't play them much. But people cannot dislike the monk because he's too weak.
Did anybody mention that Drunken Monks have practically infinite ki points? I played a very fun "monk of the drunken mountain" (drunken monk + sacred mountain packages) who at level 5 (20pt buy) got his AC upto 28 (varies a lot from round to round) and almost never ran out of ki points over many encounters a day (we played the Carrion Hill module).
Sure it takes some thinking, and strategic planning of how you commit the monk from round to round - but our GM is a monster that plays his encounters well. The finale was nearly a TPK. We lost two party members and the third was only saved because my monk beat the Eldar Spawn and carried out the 3rd (near dead) character. It would still have been a TPK (in spite of the monk killing the BBEG) but the monk managed to get far enough away because he could use his last ki point for a speed burst to cover barely enough distance from the place.
The only problem I have with your posted monk builds here is their inflated ACs. They all have 20 potions of mage armor. While I understand that mage armor is not hard buff to get from another party member, its not a guaranteed buff considering spell slots or the availability of wands or potions. The fighters get all their bonuses from their non consumable equipment and class features. Isn't that a more fair comparison? Also where is the TWF build, seeing as monks are essentially TWF fighters?
Removed some inappropriate posts. Keep it civil.
Sadly Lore furious focus only works for 2hd weapons (or 1hd wielded in 2hds) so the monk dosent benefit from it.
I, think, these calcualtions for crits are correct
SnB (long sword) Good AC (16+ to hit by average High attack for CR=6), Weak Will
Expected power attack: 24.15 = (0.7 * 17.5) + (0.7*0.1*35) + (0.45 * 17.5) + (0.45*0.1*35)
2hd fighter (great sword) OK AC (50/50 hit by average high attack for CR 6 =12)
Expected power attack: 36.0 = (0.8 * 24) + (.8*.1*48) + (0.45 * 24) + (0.45*0.1*48)
Monk Str. Focused (AC comparable to 2hd fighter[with potion], but ~12 fewer HP)
Expected power attack: 25.41 = 2(0.55 * 16.5) +2(0.55*0.05*33) + (0.3 * 16.5) + (0.3*0.05*33)
Removed some inappropriate posts. Keep it civil.
Ooooooo nice new avatar, Liz :D
You can consider a full round with stunning fist, touch of serenity and punishing kick. It's not easy to pass all 3 saves trow...
Truthful the 3 in one round does add some added checks which can be devistating. One thing I dont remember does the monk have to meet the feat requirements for the 2 he dosent get at 1st if so those arent available till level 12-13?
You can consider a full round with stunning fist, touch of serenity and punishing kick. It's not easy to pass all 3 saves trow...Truthful the 3 in one round does add some added checks which can be devistating. One thing I dont remember does the monk have to meet the feat requirements for the 2 he dosent get at 1st if so those arent available till level 12-13?I don't understand. Excuse me...
You can consider also the CM as disarm and umbalance. At higher levels there is quivering palm...
Monk is not so bad. On the damage the fighter is better, but it's fanny and he have a big variety of attacks!
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear i meant the monk depending on style fomr core/apg chosen gets one of those options at first level (stunning fist, touch of serenity or the kick) i was asking at what point could he take the other two so that he could use all 3 in one full attack?
Punishing Kick, Elemental Fist, Perfect Strike, Touch of Serenity have a BAB of +8 as a prerequisite, so a monk must be 17th level to have all the five "special moves".
Nevertheless he can START take them from level 11 and at that point already stacked up more than few maneuvers and his full attacks and charges can be very diverse. I think that this is the point raised above.
There is a specific thread about the topic, but as a general rule, yeah, you can mix and match a lot of these attacks in your flurry, even if some are more restrictive as an example, Perfect Strike NEEDS a monk weapon. BTW, I think is intended to be used with a Kama.
Punishing Kick, Elemental Fist, Perfect Strike, Touch of Serenity have a BAB of +8 as a prerequisite, so a monk must be 17th level to have all the five "special moves".
Nevertheless he can START take them from level 11 and at that point already stacked up more than few maneuvers and his full attacks and charges can be very diverse. I think that this is the point raised above.
There is a specific thread about the topic, but as a general rule, yeah, you can mix and match a lot of these attacks in your flurry, even if some are more restrictive as an example, Perfect Strike NEEDS a monk weapon. BTW, I think is intended to be used with a Kama.
Thanks sir for the clarification. I was thinking if they could start down this road at say level 3 that would be, well, extremely potent.
I do not like so much elemental strike - it's the only one that actually makes some sense only for the monk having it as "base" (four winds).
Nevertheless, the key of perfect strike is maneuver weapons, not DPR (barring the bow monk). It's for when you MUST be sure that Trip attempt will work.
Alternatively, use it for the -5 iterative. Stun with the first, then medusa wrath, and Trip (with Perfect Stike + Kama) the OTHER foe you are not DPRing ;)
Ooooooo nice new avatar, Liz :D
Rawr!
...I am fond of it. ^_^
@PadShiro
Wait, barring maneuvers, other special attacks are limited 1/round IIRC. Still awesome IMHO.
A side note on the elemental fist: you can notice that is in the Four Wind monk.. I wonder if this could be intended - that's the one able to perform 3 standard action few times a day, that screams vital strike. In the same book there is a spell that you can UMD via wand able to increase natural attacks by 2 dice.
Maybe the ES is for four wind monk, that is more biased toward DPS. Just a thought, of course.
@Anburaid
I think getting your hands on some potions of mage armor is generally do-able. I'm not going out and saying "in some campaigns you cannot purchase heavy armor". In the off-case that the potions aren't available, the monk will have to make a different plan. For everything else there is MasterCard.
@Dragonsong
The crit math is wrong; or rather it assumes a greatsword that has a x3 crit.
Here's the corrected results. Including the bard song again.
2H1 is the two-handed fighter from before
2H2 is the two-handed fighter with furious focus
Mk1 is the monk weapon adept (strength focused) from before
Mk2 is the same but using a templesword:
SnB: 28.958 = (0.8 * 19.5 * 1.1) + (0.55 * 19.5 * 1.1)
2H1: 38.610 = (0.8 * 26 * 1.1) + (0.55 * 26 * 1.1)
2H2: 41.470 = (0.9 * 26 * 1.1) + (0.55 * 26 * 1.1)
Mk1: 33.023 = (2 * 0.65 * 18.5 * 1.05) + (0.4 * 18.5 * 1.05)
Mk2: 34.595 = (2 * 0.65 * 18.5 * 1.1) + (0.4 * 18.5 * 1.1)
And here is what happens when everybody is flanking as well. Note that the 2H2 is now reaching about to reach the cap for benefiting from Furious Focus, any additional + to attack would not help, meaning the DPR of 2H1 and 2H2 would be the same then.
SnB: 33.248 = (0.9 * 19.5 * 1.1) + (0.65 * 19.5 * 1.1)
2H1: 44.339 = (0.9 * 26 * 1.1) + (0.65 * 26 * 1.1)
2H2: 45.760 = (0.95 * 26 * 1.1) + (0.65 * 26 * 1.1)
Mk1: 38.850 = (2 * 0.75 * 18.5 * 1.05) + (0.5 * 18.5 * 1.05)
Mk2: 40.700 = (2 * 0.75 * 18.5 * 1.1) + (0.5 * 18.5 * 1.1)
Sure, the monk relies on his party for buffs and flanking - but he's within 10% of the two-handed fighter (with furious focus). ...and can still use his ki-flurries and stunning fist (or the other ones, like touch of serenity).
no Lorekeeper it assumes a x2 crit hence the 24 per hit in your builds becomes 48.
Your math is flawed :)
Observe:
36.0 = (0.8 * 24) + (0.8 * 0.1 * 48) + (0.45 * 24) + (0.45*0.1*48)
the part I bolded means that 80% of the time he hits for 24 damage (first term) and on top of that 8% of the time he hits for an *additional* 48 damage. But the additional damage from critting is only 24 (keep in mind that the initial 24 damage is already dealt in the first term).
i.e. what you want to achieve is that 8% of the time the damage is doubled, so you add 24 more damage. Since the first term already has the initial hit of 24 in it.
You're right I just realized where my error was and was going to say so.
I was also thinking about the stun % for a weapon adept with a 15 Wis wouldn't the DC drop to 15 from 17 yielding around 19.5% chance to stun against a good save BBEG of CR 6 on a non power attack round, and a 16.5% chance in a power attack round. Using your stun calculations with the lower chance of it working due to the lower DC
Im here to comment on the monk moving alot vs its primary attack being based on not moving to get it.
I actually made a monk, who has a glaive, yuck a non monk weapon, that cant be used to flurry, right?
well just the opposite.
See 1) hes set up to do alot of attacks of opportunity (most monks have high dex) and bonus monk feats lend this class to doing just that. but by having both access simultaneously to a reach weapon AND up close with its kicks, the monk overcomes the imbalance of the reach weapon.
2) ive set up the monk to do whirlwind attacks with feats. So yea he still has to be still for this one, but now i can choose to whirlwind with the glaive or flurry in hand to hand. (again monk bonus feats set you up to do this)
3) not to hard to pick up cleave and/or great cleave ( i havent done that yet and it might be redundant as i see it to do so)
but you can build a pretty fiesty monk.
Also lets face it with his saves and his move, the monk IS a wizard slayer.
if you use the monk properly he should move once, attack once THEN flurry next round, then move once attack once.
Best way to do it in my mind is to grapple whatever you just moved to (usually a spell caster type)
biggest problem i see with the monk, is the fighter is still abetter grappler thab the monk. that should be fixed.
See 1) hes set up to do alot of attacks of opportunity (most monks have high dex) and bonus monk feats lend this class to doing just that. but by having both access simultaneously to a reach weapon AND up close with its kicks, the monk overcomes the imbalance of the reach weapon.
Not a bad idea. I think the longspear should be a monk weapon.
2) ive set up the monk to do whirlwind attacks with feats. So yea he still has to be still for this one, but now i can choose to whirlwind with the glaive or flurry in hand to hand. (again monk bonus feats set you up to do this)
Not a bad idea again
Also lets face it with his saves and his move, the monk IS a wizard slayer.
At what levels?
if you use the monk properly he should move once, attack once THEN flurry next round, then move once attack once.Best way to do it in my mind is to grapple whatever you just moved to (usually a spell caster type)
The problem is that arcanist(wizard and sorcerer as examples) survive by not letting anyone get close to them. A monk has no special talents to overcome that. Most DM's like myself have barriers(monsters or terrain) to make sure you don't get to the caster in round 1. We also use miss chance, and other spells that increase the ability to play "keep away" faster than the monk can find a solution. If running up to a caster was solved by speed then fighters with potions of haste would be very common.
I am not in the "caster always has the solution" school of thought, but neither do I give open paths to my bad guys, the important ones anyway. Mirror Image, and Displacement are annoying when combined.
I was also thinking about the stun % for a weapon adept with a 15 Wis wouldn't the DC drop to 15 from 17 yielding around 19.5% chance to stun against a good save BBEG of CR 6 on a non power attack round, and a 16.5% chance in a power attack round. Using your stun calculations with the lower chance of it working due to the lower DC
You're right, I didn't explain my choices there:
The saves for a CR6 creature are 9 (high) and 5 (low) - so I took the average to be 7 and based the maths of that. Additionally, I assume that creatures have on average +2 to their AC due to Dex (which is obviously denied while stunned).
Remember that scene from the popular anime where one hero from the Three Kingdoms of China held off a bridge, killing an entire army, all while completely weaponless?
No, because it wasn't in an anime.
What about that high flying wuxia character Cu Chulainn?
Wait, he wasn't wuxia? Dang!
No see they made fighters like casters because now fighters have difference stances and maneuvers and styles of attack just like real martial arts and real fighting techniques so clearly that must be magic. Don't you know? Real medieval knights never used any techniques at all, they just aimlessly bashed each other over the head!Right, because desert wind magic flaming sword is a martial discipline! LOLcirno!
Yes, odd how the arcane martial class meant to act as the monk-alike and is given complete supernatural overtones has supernatural abilities just as the monk did.
Odd.
Yes.
Quite.
*Smokes bubblepipe*
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Remember that scene from the popular anime where one hero from the Three Kingdoms of China held off a bridge, killing an entire army, all while completely weaponless?
No, because it wasn't in an anime.
What about that high flying wuxia character Cu Chulainn?
Wait, he wasn't wuxia? Dang!
And they all were at least epic levels characters, because otherwise we wouldn't even know their names !
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And they all were at least epic levels characters, because otherwise we wouldn't even know their names !Remember that scene from the popular anime where one hero from the Three Kingdoms of China held off a bridge, killing an entire army, all while completely weaponless?
No, because it wasn't in an anime.
What about that high flying wuxia character Cu Chulainn?
Wait, he wasn't wuxia? Dang!
You're right, Legend Lore says you have to be 11th level to qualify. That is pretty epic.
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You're right, Legend Lore says you have to be 11th level to qualify. That is pretty epic.And they all were at least epic levels characters, because otherwise we wouldn't even know their names !Remember that scene from the popular anime where one hero from the Three Kingdoms of China held off a bridge, killing an entire army, all while completely weaponless?
No, because it wasn't in an anime.
What about that high flying wuxia character Cu Chulainn?
Wait, he wasn't wuxia? Dang!
William Tell = legendary, Cu Chulainn = legendary
William Tell != Cu Chulainn
I love how three sentences of 2E fluff are a basis of some people's whole line of reasoning.
Keep in mind that many people are famous purely due to good PR.
e.g. Paris Hilton: level 1 Aristocrat.