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The general rule on p. 548 it says...
"Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spelltrigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."
Feat says:
Scribe Scroll (Item Creation)
You can create magic scrolls.
Prerequisite: Caster level 1st.
Benefit: You can create a scroll of any spell that you know. Scribing a scroll takes 2 hours if its base price is 250 gp or less, otherwise scribing a scroll takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. To scribe a scroll, you must use up raw materials costing half of this base price. See the magic item creation rules in Magic Items for more information.
Item Creation section on scrolls says:
Creating Scrolls
To create a scroll, a character needs a supply of choice writing materials, the cost of which is subsumed in the cost for scribing the scroll: 12.5 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster.
All writing implements and materials used to scribe a scroll must be fresh and unused. A character must pay the full cost for scribing each spell scroll no matter how many times she previously has scribed the same spell.
The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. A material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)
Scribing a scroll requires 1 day per 1,000 gp of the base price. Although an individual scroll might contain more than one spell, each spell must be scribed as a separate effort, meaning that no more than 1 spell can be scribed in a day
A player in a game I am DMing wants to make a scroll of cure light wounds. He is a wizard and wants to enlist the help of the party bard. He states that the general rule states that you can increase the DC by 5 and make it with someone else casting the spell. Does this apply to scribe scroll? The feat and description of the scribing says you need the spell prepared. A spontaneous caster with a prepared scribing seems off, but This adventure is strictly by the rules so I don't want to cheat them out of something they can do.
yes, but iirc the wizard will still need a UMD check to cast from it.
He states that the general rule states that you can increase the DC by 5 and make it with someone else casting the spell. Does this apply to scribe scroll?
No, scrolls are spell completion items. You cannot add +5 to the DC to avoid needing the spell with spell completion items.
Creating Scrolls
To create a scroll, a character needs a supply of choice writing materials, the cost of which is subsumed in the cost for scribing the scroll: 12.5 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster.
All writing implements and materials used to scribe a scroll must be fresh and unused. A character must pay the full cost for scribing each spell scroll no matter how many times she previously has scribed the same spell.
The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. A material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)
Scribing a scroll requires 1 day per 1,000 gp of the base price. Although an individual scroll might contain more than one spell, each spell must be scribed as a separate effort, meaning that no more than 1 spell can be scribed in a day
A player in a game I am DMing wants to make a scroll of cure light wounds. He is a wizard and wants to enlist the help of the party bard. He states that the general rule states that you can increase the DC by 5 and make it with someone else casting the spell.
No, the exact rule is you increase the DC by 5 for every prerequisite you do no meet, except you must have the spell for spell trigger and spell-completion items. By the RAW, the scroll creator must have the spell prepared/known to be able to scribe it. No where does it say you can have someone else cast the spell for you.
We hand wave that restriction, and let casters work together when creating magic items, but that is a house rule.
"In addition, you cannot create spelltrigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."
This part makes me want to say no. Wands and Scrolls seem to be off the table for co-op creation
and staves.
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He states that the general rule states that you can increase the DC by 5 and make it with someone else casting the spell. Does this apply to scribe scroll?
** spoiler omitted **
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No, scrolls are spell completion items. You cannot add +5 to the DC to avoid needing the spell with spell completion items.
.
** spoiler omitted **...
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......No where does it say you can have someone else cast the spell for you...
While I agree with what you have said mostly, I think the fly in the ointment happens to be this line:
Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).
As Paizo has given the ability to craft magic items to non spell casters, they have also made sure that appropriate items (those with spells as prereq's) are still able to be made when spells are in fact not a class ability of those creating the item. In no way is people working together to make an item a "house rule."
What that means to the OP, yes the wizard can in fact create an arcane scroll with the arcane version of the spell cure light wounds. Though the only person who will be able to use the scroll is the bard (as it is on his/her class list, not the wizards) and when the scrolls are created the bard uses one casting the of the spell that day.
While I agree with what you have said mostly, I think the fly in the ointment happens to be this line:
Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).
The problem is the "most of the time" followed by a hard exception for spell-completion and spell trigger items. I am not sure if the last part overrides the previous or not.
If I take that statement as an absolute, I can take a staff of healing, and use it to create a staff of healing. Wash, rinse, and repeat.
As Paizo has given the ability to craft magic items to non spell casters, they have also made sure that appropriate items (those with spells as prereq's) are still able to be made when spells are in fact not a class ability of those creating the item. In no way is people working together to make an item a "house rule."What that means to the OP, yes the wizard can in fact create an arcane scroll with the arcane version of the spell cure light wounds. Though the only person who will be able to use the scroll is the bard (as it is on his/her class list, not the wizards) and when the scrolls are created the bard uses one casting the of the spell that day.
No, Paizo gave non-casters the ability to ignore the spell requirements entirely in exchange for +5 to the DC for everything but scrolls, wands, and staves. That is how non-casters get around the spell requirements.
How about potions? Could an alchimist brew potions of any non-personal level 1-3 spell as long as someone in the group provides the spell?
How about potions? Could an alchimist brew potions of any non-personal level 1-3 spell as long as someone in the group provides the spell?
Yes, or even in the absence of anyone having the spell available, for a +5 bump to the DC at the end. Potions are neither spell completion nor spell trigger items.
Apparently I lost this post for awhile, the RAW bears out that you cannot use someone else as the spell caster. After looking back to 3.5 it was even a published optional rule (which is what I remember our group doing) Talking to the DM it was a matter of why have multiple item creators in the party and waste the resources (feats) when they are attempting to help the party out.
Looks confused.
So by Pathfinder rules.....
Can or Can you not; work together to make magic items ?
Looks confused.
So by Pathfinder rules.....
Can or Can you not; work together to make magic items ?
No. You must do it on your own.
I think you CAN work together. It's something that's been allowed in D&D as long as I can remember. I see absolutely no reason for the Paizo game designers to have changed that.
By the rules you CAN work together on most items, via someone else casting spell prerequisites into your magical item, except in the cases of spell completion and spell trigger items (Wands, Scrolls, and Staves). At least that is how I understand it, and how past discussions on these boards have run their course.
The idea that you might not be able to cooperatively work on magic items together (even if it is just spell trigger/completion items) is new to me. Can you link me to some of said discussions please?
By the rules you CAN work together on most items, via someone else casting spell prerequisites into your magical item, except in the cases of spell completion and spell trigger items (Wands, Scrolls, and Staves). At least that is how I understand it, and how past discussions on these boards have run their course.The idea that you might not be able to cooperatively work on magic items together (even if it is just spell trigger/completion items) is new to me. Can you link me to some of said discussions please?
Read this thread in it's entirety, the appropriate rules were quoted. Everything besides the spell completion and spell trigger items are open for the co-op work. The rules say the prereq spells must be known by the caster (though can be supplied by items or other casters) - the general rule, then a later line states specifically those items spell prereq must be known - the exception to the general rule.
I think this is because you are writing the text of the spell on the scroll. No two wizards write the spell exactly alike. This is why you need to make a spellcraft check to use someone else's spellbook.
The RAW can only be fought when card rules come into play. (Card rules are the text on some game cards that allow something with that card.)
For example,
Scroll Trigger Spell: 3rd level: This spell is only used in the creation of protection and curse
scrolls. This is cast on the scroll to make it trigger item like a potion. Protection scrolls
activate when read and often are more powerful when read longer. Curse scrolls activate
when the title is read. Semi-benificial scrolls can be created such as scrolls of enrage or enlarge.
Theoreticly another caster could cast the trigger. It is changing the nature of the item. The spell triggered must still be scribed by one caster.
The future prestige class, arcane scribe, might be empowered to make scrolls from other people's spell books, but they will have specific rules, and they will have Scribe Scroll as a class requirement.
To Ravingdork
you cannot create spelltrigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
I think the moral here is if someone offers to recharge your wand for goldpieces up front, see if they can cast the spell first.
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ok.. so page 549 PF phb =
""Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the items's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.""
So the way i read this is
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the items's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet.
Yes, (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed), more than one spell caster can help in creating magic items.
The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory.
The one spending most of the time creating the item need said feat
In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
Ok, this is what is confused me. the In Addition part. Does this mean = A) That this is mandatory for the person who had the item creation feat also know these spells. or B) That you have to have the said spell (throw you or another source) and that you can not create the item without the spell by raising the said items +5 DC.
Depends on how you read it. At first i am inclined to read it using (A) for scroll, but this does not make much since for wands and staves, leading me to follow though (B).
Does the "In Addition" part refer to the main body of the paragraph, or to the one sentence right before it ??
It looks like there is an additional prerequisites for spell-trigger and spell-completion items. The person making the item must be able to cast the spell.
ok.. so page 549 PF phb =
""Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the items's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.""
So the way i read this is
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the items's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet.
Yes, (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed), more than one spell caster can help in creating magic items.
The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory.
The one spending most of the time creating the item need said feat
In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
Ok, this is what is confused me. the In Addition part. Does this mean = A) That this is mandatory for the person who had the item creation feat also know these spells. or B) That you have to have the said spell (throw you or another source) and that you can not create the item without the spell by raising the said items +5 DC.
Depends on how you read it. At first i am inclined to read it using (A) for scroll, but this does not make much since for wands and staves, leading me to follow though (B).
Does the "In Addition" part refer to the main body...
The general rule - when creating magic items you can cast the spell required from your own repertoire, or power the creation from another caster's spell or item.
The exception to the rule - Spell completion and Spell trigger items require the creator to actually know the spell requirement.
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It's always been my interpretation of the passages regarding the creation of magic items and the creation of spell completion items and spell trigger items, that Spell Trigger and Spell Completion items cannot be created without the use of the spell(s) they are designed to produce. In order for a Wand of Magic Missile to be crafted, the actual spell Magic Missile must be used in the creation of the wand, as opposed to the more abstracted Spellcraft check DC increase that other items are allowed to use to bypass an absence of any spells designated as necessary for crafting. However, if the line "In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites." means what I have said ("Spell Trigger and Spell Completion items cannot be created without the use of the spell(s) they are designed to produce."), this text does not comment on the source of the spells, so therefore "(although access [to spells that must be known by the item's creator] through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed)" is still a valid method for satisfying the creation requirements.
From a slightly different analytical perspective:
- "In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites." establishes an additional requirement for the crafting character: the spell prerequisites for spell-trigger and spell-completion items must be met in the crafting process.
- "(although access [to spells that must be known by the item's creator] through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed)" this describes a method of satisfying creation prerequisites that take the form of actual spells.
Therefore, logically, while the crafting character cannot create a spell-trigger or spell-completion item that produces a spell that the character has no access to, a Wizard with Craft Wand could work with a Cleric (who lacks the feat) to create a Wand of Cure Light Wounds.
In reading the rules in the Pathfinder system, it is important to note that the rules are generally written in common English, so that when the rules state "In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites." having recently established the proper mechanisms for "meeting ...spell prerequisites": "(although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed)", the meaning of the rules should not be examined through the lens of a Legal mode, but of common English.
If a woodworker was explaining how to make a complicated cabinet and said "In general you have to cut the wood the right way (or get someone else to help you with that)," and then later said "With this kind of wood, you can't make <some kind of wooden object> unless you cut the wood a particular way," I seriously doubt that anyone would take his comments to mean that even though he indicated earlier that someone else could help, that for *this* wood you needed to do it yourself.
B) That you have to have the said spell (throw you or another source) and that you can not create the item without the spell by raising the said items +5 DC.
So in other words B
*) You have to have someone cast the said spell, but that someone can be another "Caster".
*) You can not use the +5 to DC, when talking about the spells needed for the item to be made, when talking about spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items.
B) That you have to have the said spell (throw you or another source) and that you can not create the item without the spell by raising the said items +5 DC.So in other words B
*) You have to have someone cast the said spell, but that someone can be another "Caster".
*) You can not use the +5 to DC, when talking about the spells needed for the item to be made, when talking about spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items.
Precisely.
This is the indicated result of my logical analysis of the passage in question.
B) That you have to have the said spell (throw you or another source) and that you can not create the item without the spell by raising the said items +5 DC.So in other words B
*) You have to have someone cast the said spell, but that someone can be another "Caster".
*) You can not use the +5 to DC, when talking about the spells needed for the item to be made, when talking about spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items.
Precisely.
This is the indicated result of my logical analysis of the passage in question.
While I agree that it might be "logical" that requires an assumption to work. By RAW we have two statements and those of us bound by RAW must make use of the literal meanings. Obviously feel free to do it the way you deduced (as we did in our party pre PFRPG) but that doesn't mean RAW backs that. Logic and RAW are sometimes mutually exclusive...
Also note I WAS arguing your side of it until I actually went in and read the "new" rules. I was working with what we had in 3.5 and had never looked at the rules that closely until posting here. I hope we get a FAQ or something to say it is possible for others to be able to cast the spell (more beneficial to the party), but until then, RAW it is for me.
B) That you have to have the said spell (throw you or another source) and that you can not create the item without the spell by raising the said items +5 DC.So in other words B
*) You have to have someone cast the said spell, but that someone can be another "Caster".
*) You can not use the +5 to DC, when talking about the spells needed for the item to be made, when talking about spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items.
Precisely.
This is the indicated result of my logical analysis of the passage in question.
Ya, that is how I always thought the rules worked as read, but then i keep hearing arguments on message boards back and forth. I figured i should break it down, and ask questions.
Heh. I agree with Doskious Steele.
Heh. I agree with Doskious Steele.
I'll agree with it being the way it should work, unfortunately I can't agree that is what the text literally says.
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Heh. I agree with Doskious Steele.I'll agree with it being the way it should work, unfortunately I can't agree that is what the text literally says.
EDIT: Thanks, RD!
Actually, that *is* what the text literally says, which is easy to see when rendered into a system of symbolic logic representing the standard uses inherent to common English. The set of symbolic logical rules that must be applied to the passage to obtain the interpretation you insist on is a set that does not include the applicability of common sense (i.e. applying common sense to aid in determining what the rules mean), which is a contradiction of the directive from the Paizo staff that common sense be valued as intrinsic to RAW. As such, I must stipulate that your reasoning, while valid under certain axiomatic sets, is not valid in the context that matters from the frame of reference of this conversation.
In clearer (if longer) terms, having been provided with a definition of what constitutes "satisfying (or meeting) the prerequisites" for creating a magical item over the course of the preceding 4 sentences, the final sentence that states "In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites" must be read in light of the existing definitions for satisfying (or meeting) the prerequisites. Since the sentence calls for "you" (the creator) to "meet the spell prerequisites" for spell-trigger and spell-completion items without any modifiers that indicate how the spell prerequisites must be met, it is clear that any of the defined mechanisms in the preceding four sentences are valid ways of satisfying the conditions of the final sentence. Note that the +5 to DC is not a valid means of addressing the requirements of the final sentence because it specifies that the increase to DC is the direct result of prerequisites not being met. However, as that clause is the only clause that fails to designate a fashion in which the prerequisites can be met in a manner that satisfies the requirements in the final sentence, all of the other possible ways of satisfying the prerequisites must be valid, including both casting the spell yourself, and obtaining access through another magic item or spellcaster.
If one insists on a truly *literal* reading of the rules, one will find that the rules even in this small snippet are literally contradictory in the juxtaposition of the statements "Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created" and the later statement "The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory." Therefore, and based on the comments from the Paizo staff on that situation, the need for non-literal reading of the rules to understand their intent and meaning is clearly indicated. In a literal reading of the rules, the system as a whole falls apart as a result of the contradictions that a literal reading of the rules introduces.
The key to understanding the meaning of the final sentence is understanding that the statement it makes is made as part of a collection of statements regarding how making magical items work, and not as an independent remark. The statement *must* be read in the context of the definitions that precede it, and *cannot* be read as a sentence-construct that stands alone. This is fundamental to the process of understanding the way that the rules work. (Otherwise, I could cite the passage from the combat chapter "A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a success" as the reason that my skill check for trying to jump across a 900 foot wide chasm from a standing start while carrying a heavy load with Dex 10 and no ranks in Acrobatics should still succeed, since I rolled a natural 20.)
B) That you have to have the said spell (throw you or another source) and that you can not create the item without the spell by raising the said items +5 DC.So in other words B
*) You have to have someone cast the said spell, but that someone can be another "Caster".
*) You can not use the +5 to DC, when talking about the spells needed for the item to be made, when talking about spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items.
And for the rest of use, who perfer the short version. :D
Who the H E double hockey sticks does the PRD? Because stuff like this really irks me... I went looking to quote a line I read that said (paraphrased)spell requirements must be known by the caster(end) and saw this.
Requirements: Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item's caster level.A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.
It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.
If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator's level must be known.
I'm okay with rules being spread around in the book, it's annoying but it is understandable with the timeline they had to work with. If they have two "official" sources with very different text that is just obnoxious.
THAT being said, if PRD is indeed "official" I'm back to being a happy camper :)
Doskius Steel is entirely to smart for his own good, and I doff my cap to him for his eloquent semantics and mastery of legalese.
It is unfortunate that the rules are spread out, but there you have it. A wizard with Scribe Scroll (is there any other kind?) can work with the cleric to make a scroll of CLW. The wizard provides one prerequisite, the feat, and the cleric provides another, a memorized spell to be expended upon creation of the item.
Though the wizard could not create this item by himself, nor indeed could he use it without UMD, these two amiable fellows have come together in the spirit of teamwork and friendship to make something neither could do without the other.
It's RAW, and it is a beautiful thing.
Doskius Steel is entirely to smart for his own good, and I doff my cap to him for his eloquent semantics and mastery of legalese.
It is unfortunate that the rules are spread out, but there you have it. A wizard with Scribe Scroll (is there any other kind?) can work with the cleric to make a scroll of CLW. The wizard provides one prerequisite, the feat, and the cleric provides another, a memorized spell to be expended upon creation of the item.
Though the wizard could not create this item by himself, nor indeed could he use it without UMD, these two amiable fellows have come together in the spirit of teamwork and friendship to make something neither could do without the other.
It's RAW, and it is a beautiful thing.
Welcome to the modern age of Magic. Were cooperation and friendship can lead to the creation of some very wonderful and frighting new magic items.
Page 552 of the Core Book on Creating Scrolls:
The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed
(or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard)
and must provide any material component or focus the
spell requires. A material component is consumed when
she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in
scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers
the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until
the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that
spell slot is expended from the caster’s currently prepared
spells, just as if it had been cast.)
If you do not know the spell or have it prepared, you cannot write a scroll of that spell. It has to use your character's spell slot, or in other words it has to come out of your character's head, not someone else's.
The sections on the same and following pages for creating rods, wands, and staves are worded the same way.
Page 552 of the Core Book on Creating Scrolls:
The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed
(or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard)
and must provide any material component or focus the
spell requires. A material component is consumed when
she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in
scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers
the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until
the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that
spell slot is expended from the caster’s currently prepared
spells, just as if it had been cast.)
If you do not know the spell or have it prepared, you cannot write a scroll of that spell. It has to use your character's spell slot, or in other words it has to come out of your character's head, not someone else's.
The sections on the same and following pages for creating rods, wands, and staves are worded the same way.
Assuming it (the PRD) is "official"Magic Items
Requirements: Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item's caster level.A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.
It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.
If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator's level must be known.
Says otherwise. No offense, but do people even READ the stuff in the threads or just post for the sake of posting?
Skylancer, I cannot even find the exact passage in the Core Book that you are quoting from the PRD. In print or in an official errata is what counts to me, not some online document that does not match the book word for word, even if Paizo does call it official. Even in this day and age, people do not have internet access 24/7, so some online document is useless when you can't access it.
Skylancer, I cannot even find the exact passage in the Core Book that you are quoting from the PRD. In print or in an official errata is what counts to me, not some online document that does not match the book word for word, even if Paizo does call it official. Even in this day and age, people do not have internet access 24/7, so some online document is useless when you can't access it.
click on the link, it leads to Paizo's site for the PRD. The link being the blue text "Magic Items." You being unable to access the internet 24/7 or a possible inability locate or access a working link doesn't make it any less official to Paizo.
As for it being official I've asked that, given that there is in fact Pathfinder Society organized play it is quite possible that it is in fact "official."
Page 552 of the Core Book on Creating Scrolls:
The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed
(or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard)
and must provide any material component or focus the
spell requires. A material component is consumed when
she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in
scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers
the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until
the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that
spell slot is expended from the caster’s currently prepared
spells, just as if it had been cast.)
If you do not know the spell or have it prepared, you cannot write a scroll of that spell. It has to use your character's spell slot, or in other words it has to come out of your character's head, not someone else's.
The sections on the same and following pages for creating rods, wands, and staves are worded the same way.
page 549 PF phb = Is were we get the information about getting help crating magic items. First full Paragraph.
""Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the items's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.""
The problem with useing;(The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed(or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard)
and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.); Is that it say this also for Creating Magic Armor, Creating Magic Weapon, Creating Potions, Creating Rings, Creating Rods, Creating Scrolls, Creating Staves, Creating Wands, and Creating Wonderous Items.
Which makes no since when you read page 548-549 about Magic Item Creation.
The problem with useing;(The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed(or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.); Is that it say this also for Creating Magic Armor, Creating Magic Weapon, Creating Potions, Creating Rings,...
Hey! That's my line!
Damn ninjas.
click on the link, it leads to Paizo's site for the PRD. The link being the blue text "Magic Items." You being unable to access the internet 24/7 or a possible inability locate or access a working link doesn't make it any less official to Paizo.
As for it being official I've asked that, given that there is in fact Pathfinder Society organized play it is quite possible that it is in fact "official."
I would agree with you except for the fact that specific rules override general rules. The rules allowing for cooperation when creating magics items are general rules. There there are specific rules under the types of item creation stating the creator must know the spell.
It is hard to tell if that is a specific rule overriding the general rule, a reiteration of the general rule, or just a copy and paste error.
click on the link, it leads to Paizo's site for the PRD. The link being the blue text "Magic Items." You being unable to access the internet 24/7 or a possible inability locate or access a working link doesn't make it any less official to Paizo.
As for it being official I've asked that, given that there is in fact Pathfinder Society organized play it is quite possible that it is in fact "official."
I would agree with you except for the fact that specific rules override general rules. The rules allowing for cooperation when creating magics items are general rules. There there are specific rules under the types of item creation stating the creator must know the spell.
It is hard to tell if that is a specific rule overriding the general rule, a reiteration of the general rule, or just a copy and paste error.
The way i read it:
Page 548-549 = Magic item Creation (Real big header) = Talks about item creation first. 1 Paragraph): Talks about the DC need for item creation. 2 Paragraph): Talks about what prerequisites need, and there exceptions. 3 Paragraph): Talks about caster level. 4 Paragraph): Supply Costs. 5 Paragraph): Spell Materal Supply Costs. 6 Paragraph): Talks about the Work area needed to create the item in. 7 Paragraph): Time need to create the item. 8 paragraph): talks about how many items you can create at once ""which is one"".Page 549 = Magic Item Gold piece values = which give 11 more paragraph on rules that are used for the creation of magic items.
Page 550 = Has the Magic chart.
Page 550-553 = Then lists the Feats one after another.
The way i look at it page 548-550 came before listing the feats, because all this information retains to the item creation feats. This includes the exception (which we have been talking about), on page 549 first full paragraph on that page.
Guess what i am trying to saying is that i see the Specific rules (listed on page 548-550) working with the specific rules (listed on page 550-553). All the rules on page 548-549 are applied to the creation of items listed in 550-553.
.....................
As it stands right now, people are just going to keep debating this forever.
Stuff
I will agree that the crafting rules need a lot of clarification.
I have the second printing core rulebook
Was the PRD produced after that printing or was it produced by playtesting?
I found that a wand that has run out of charges is just a stick. Does it actually say wands cannot be recharged at all in a later printing or something? The con man in question might make the offer for wands that still have at least one charge. On second thought, just use wands up and throw them on the fire so you don't get confused.
As for the creator of an item not being the guy with the feat, that way leads to madness. Come join me in madness. :)
How about we dust off the feat Cooperative magic, and let it mean them and another character are as one, and that one is the creator.
(I looked up creator in a dictionary and it says 1 creator.)
I have the second printing core rulebook
Was the PRD produced after that printing or was it produced by playtesting?
I found that a wand that has run out of charges is just a stick. Does it actually say wands cannot be recharged at all in a later printing or something? The con man in question might make the offer for wands that still have at least one charge. On second thought, just use wands up and throw them on the fire so you don't get confused.As for the creator of an item not being the guy with the feat, that way leads to madness. Come join me in madness. :)
How about we dust off the feat Cooperative magic, and let it mean them and another character are as one, and that one is the creator.
(I looked up creator in a dictionary and it says 1 creator.)
Depends on what you mean by recharge. You could keep the stick and use it to recreate a new wand with the same spell but you still incur all the costs associated and get no price break. I think the idea of recharge most people are looking at is the adding of charges a few at a time which isn't allowed. When you make an item it has a set amount of charges (50 for a wand) and once it gets to 25 charges there is no way to increase the charges back up. The rules don't give a mechanic for recharging wands so that is why it isn't possible, while the staff entry does, so it can be.
Right, Potions, scrolls, and wands. When used, erase them from the character sheets. Same with tiles which you break to activate.
Baring new feats or something, it looks like no cooperation in creating scrolls.
Right, Potions, scrolls, and wands. When used, erase them from the character sheets. Same with tiles which you break to activate.
Baring new feats or something, it looks like no cooperation in creating scrolls.
I'd say that depends. By a strict reading of the PFRPG core book I'd say no. By reading the PRD and the additional text (assuming it is "official"), I'd say yes. Why else would they say "cooperation may even be necessary" in some cases if they have allowed for spell requirements to be bypassed with higher DC's? The only time that would come into effect is spell trigger/completion items where the spells NEED to be used but would be unavailable to the creator for some reason or another.