My group uses the same as what JJ mentioned. Roll 3 sets of 4d6 stats, put them where you like, and pick the best set. I have found this results in less overpowered characters than point buy. You may have more points, but they will be distributed in such a way that their low stats are higher but their highs wont necessarily be as high. Not everyone rolls an 18 and keeps it, even if 1 set has one. They may choose that 2 16 set. I would rather have someone with 2 16s, but the 18 is cheaper. Rolling stats will generally result is a more well rounded character that you will not often see with point buy.
I don't really worry about the power disparity. My current game has players ranging from 19 to 34 point stats, and that 1 guy over 30 is not stealing the show in any way. In fact, I generally think of him as one of the weaker characters in the group.
All the complex formulas and ways of trying to fix dice roll disparity make me chuckle. If your looking to reduce randomness to acceptable levels, don't roll dice on it?
Bravo, sir, well done!
I think you pretty much have to accept that, while rolling stats is fun, someone is going to get hurt (so to speak.) If your group isn't up for that, Point Buy is a simple and easy solution.
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Normally I prefer point buy simply because it does completely eliminate the issue. For groups that fuss, I give this option. Take a 16, put it where you want it. If you want an 18, take it, but accept an 8 and put it where you want as well. Roll the other 4 or 5 on 3d6 in order, and live with the rolls. There you're promised a big number, but you still get the "organic" character you want, and you still have the chance for something challenged or extraordinary.
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Shade > you encourage too much SAD there.
Others > the reason point buy is favored is it eliminates this problem. If you go random accept random; it sucks for some, rocks for others, but that is what you wanted.
If you want, just have everyone do 4d6, and let them choose their roll or a 15-point buy; the 15 will be very MAD based and more min-maxed, the 4d6 will be 5-7 points higher overall bid but have points not as optimally placed. Simple.
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So, how do you folks handle this problem? Let the dice fall where they may and deal with the consequences? Do you let low-rollers re-roll or add points? Some other solution?
I basically handle this by using boons for lower-rolling characters. This requires some explanation, so here goes:
I 3d6 (reroll 1's) as the rolling scheme. Statistically speaking, this generates random ability scores with an expected value (average) of 12 and a standard deviation of ~2.5. But for purposes of determining boons, I use the sum of the modifiers (aggregate modifier) calculated from the scores (which, in theory should average ~4.5 and have a standard deviation of ~3) to determine the boons to hand out. I use a minimum aggregate of 0 and maximum aggregate of 9 (these numbers are effectively 1.5 sigma off mean).
Any player that has an aggregate modifier less than 0 can add +2 to any score until the aggregate equal 0 (maximum 18 for any ability). Any player with an aggregate greater than 9 has to subtract 2 from an ability score until their aggregate equals 9 (minimum 10 for any ability)*. Next, determine the group's maximum aggregate modifier. Each player subtracts their aggregate from the maximum aggregate to determine the number of boon points their character has.
Boon points can be exchanged for feats, talents, or skills. Basically a feat costs 3 boon points, a talent 2 boon points, and a skill is 1 boon point (with regard to skills, spending a boon point to buy a skill means you get +1 skill point/level). Feats, talents, and skills are purchased at character creation and can be bought in any combination.
Or something like that.
-Skeld
*Surprisingly, when I put this together, my group's collective concern wasn't that they might get a sucky set of abilities, it was that someone else's scores might be too good.
All the complex formulas and ways of trying to fix dice roll disparity make me chuckle. If your looking to reduce randomness to acceptable levels, don't roll dice on it?
I like the randomness of die rolling, however using the method our DM typically does means no one will ever have a stat below 6 without some sort of racial penalty AND has a chance at getting 18's. Granted that is almost the same as just saying 6+2d6, but come on... Rolling dice is fun!!!
Just because we know on an intellectual level it is the same thing, doesn't stop that joyous feeling of seeing 6's on the dice or that little feeling of relief knowing that 1 didn't screw us. It's the small things in life dammit ;-)
You've convinced me.
For my next campaign, my players will roll for their stats, using an online dice roller.
They will each roll six D1's. The first D1 has a value of 15, the second D1 has a value of 14, the third D1 has a value of 13, the fourth D1 has a value of 12, the fifth D1 has a value of 10 and the sixth D1 has a value of 8.
Let no one say I don't allow my players to roll their stats ;)
You've convinced me.
For my next campaign, my players will roll for their stats, using an online dice roller.
They will each roll six D1's. The first D1 has a value of 15, the second D1 has a value of 14, the third D1 has a value of 13, the fourth D1 has a value of 12, the fifth D1 has a value of 10 and the sixth D1 has a value of 8.
Let no one say I don't allow my players to roll their stats ;)
That might be RAW but it sure as hell wasn't as intended :-p
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I like the randomness of die rolling, however using the method our DM typically does means no one will ever have a stat below 6 without some sort of racial penalty AND has a chance at getting 18's. Granted that is almost the same as just saying 6+2d6, but come on... Rolling dice is fun!!!
Well, in terms of range, it would be the same as 4 + 2d7... But there's many different ways to roll a distribution with that range.
For example, 5d4 - 2 and 1d16+2 both yield a range of 3 - 18, and both are symmetric, but the probability of rolling a "3" on 1d16 + 2 is 6.25%, but less than 0.1% on 5d4 - 2.
On an in-character level, I suppose it makes sense that an adventuring party, looking to gather and explore the unknown, would welcome prospective members who have been extraordinarily blessed with talents and abilities, but might reject people who are remarkably weak, stupid, or unpleasant.
I like the randomness of die rolling, however using the method our DM typically does means no one will ever have a stat below 6 without some sort of racial penalty AND has a chance at getting 18's. Granted that is almost the same as just saying 6+2d6, but come on... Rolling dice is fun!!!Well, in terms of range, it would be the same as 4 + 2d7... But there's many different ways to roll a distribution with that range.
For example, 5d4 - 2 and 1d16+2 both yield a range of 3 - 18, and both are symmetric, but the probability of rolling a "3" on 1d16 + 2 is 6.25%, but less than 0.1% on 5d4 - 2.
On an in-character level, I suppose it makes sense that an adventuring party, looking to gather and explore the unknown, would welcome prospective members who have been extraordinarily blessed with talents and abilities, but might reject people who are remarkably weak, stupid, or unpleasant.
Are you trying to make Alexander chuckle again?
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Our solution is to use a "mix" of point-buy and rolling; it's a little hard to explain, so bear with me.
We use point buy - that's the base, that's how we make sure that in the end, the characters are balanced and mutually fair. But to determine the starting value of a given stat, we roll 2d4+6, in order; this result serves as the minimum (instead of 8 or 6).
Example: 15 point buy, rolling 2d4+6 in order results in str 13, dex 9, con 11, int 8, wis 13, cha 12. These are not the final stats, but the minimum value - they can only be raised, not lowered. These are good base for a warrior or cleric, and can be made to work for a paladin, druid, or monk, so let's try a monk. bump str to 14, dex to 10, con to 12, int to 10, and wis to 14, leaving cha alone; this results in 14, 10, 12, 10, 14, 12, which is 14 points, so take con to 13 and we're done.
If a player has a given character concept in mind before rolling, and gets a set of stats that absolutely cannot be made to work (like a wizard with 13 str, 13 wis, and 12 cha as min stats), it's acceptable to re-roll the whole set. But getting something that's not strictly optimized (the the monk with the charisma above) is the entire point of the method, so re-rolling is discouraged.
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Our solution is to use a "mix" of point-buy and rolling; it's a little hard to explain, so bear with me.
We use point buy - that's the base, that's how we make sure that in the end, the characters are balanced and mutually fair. But to determine the starting value of a given stat, we roll 2d4+6, in order; this result serves as the minimum (instead of 8 or 6).
Example: 15 point buy, rolling 2d4+6 in order results in str 13, dex 9, con 11, int 8, wis 13, cha 12. These are not the final stats, but the minimum value - they can only be raised, not lowered. These are good base for a warrior or cleric, and can be made to work for a paladin, druid, or monk, so let's try a monk. bump str to 14, dex to 10, con to 12, int to 10, and wis to 14, leaving cha alone; this results in 14, 10, 12, 10, 14, 12, which is 14 points, so take con to 13 and we're done.
If a player has a given character concept in mind before rolling, and gets a set of stats that absolutely cannot be made to work (like a wizard with 13 str, 13 wis, and 12 cha as min stats), it's acceptable to re-roll the whole set. But getting something that's not strictly optimized (the the monk with the charisma above) is the entire point of the method, so re-rolling is discouraged.
*chuckles heartily*
Our solution is to use a "mix" of point-buy and rolling; it's a little hard to explain, so bear with me.
We use point buy - that's the base, that's how we make sure that in the end, the characters are balanced and mutually fair. But to determine the starting value of a given stat, we roll 2d4+6, in order; this result serves as the minimum (instead of 8 or 6).
Example: 15 point buy, rolling 2d4+6 in order results in str 13, dex 9, con 11, int 8, wis 13, cha 12. These are not the final stats, but the minimum value - they can only be raised, not lowered. These are good base for a warrior or cleric, and can be made to work for a paladin, druid, or monk, so let's try a monk. bump str to 14, dex to 10, con to 12, int to 10, and wis to 14, leaving cha alone; this results in 14, 10, 12, 10, 14, 12, which is 14 points, so take con to 13 and we're done.
If a player has a given character concept in mind before rolling, and gets a set of stats that absolutely cannot be made to work (like a wizard with 13 str, 13 wis, and 12 cha as min stats), it's acceptable to re-roll the whole set. But getting something that's not strictly optimized (the the monk with the charisma above) is the entire point of the method, so re-rolling is discouraged.
I'm starting to feel "inadequate" with my 4d6, re roll 1's and drop the lowest...
Example: 15 point buy, rolling 2d4+6 in order results in str 13, dex 9, con 11, int 8, wis 13, cha 12. These are not the final stats, but the minimum value - they can only be raised, not lowered. These are good base for a warrior or cleric, and can be made to work for a paladin, druid, or monk, so let's try a monk. bump str to 14, dex to 10, con to 12, int to 10, and wis to 14, leaving cha alone; this results in 14, 10, 12, 10, 14, 12, which is 14 points, so take con to 13 and we're done.I'm starting to feel "inadequate" with my 4d6, re roll 1's and drop the lowest...
Uh...4d6-reroll-ones-drop-lowest is quite a bit better than the above-mentioned system, on average. The method BobChuck described is worth about a 21.375 point buy, on average, and the one you describe is worth about 29.8 points (according to the distributions from this site).
They're both better than a "high fantasy" 20 point buy, though. (Unless you're unlucky, in which case it sucks to be you. :-)
I have played in a game where the convention was everyone rolls 4d6 drop lowest. Then pick from the pool of stat roll sets by all the players the set you wanted to use, arrange as you like. But, that was in the days of way back (2ed) when there was no in game mechanic for a point buy.
Example: 15 point buy, rolling 2d4+6 in order results in str 13, dex 9, con 11, int 8, wis 13, cha 12. These are not the final stats, but the minimum value - they can only be raised, not lowered. These are good base for a warrior or cleric, and can be made to work for a paladin, druid, or monk, so let's try a monk. bump str to 14, dex to 10, con to 12, int to 10, and wis to 14, leaving cha alone; this results in 14, 10, 12, 10, 14, 12, which is 14 points, so take con to 13 and we're done.I'm starting to feel "inadequate" with my 4d6, re roll 1's and drop the lowest...Uh...4d6-reroll-ones-drop-lowest is quite a bit better than the above-mentioned system, on average. The method BobChuck described is worth about a 21.375 point buy, on average, and the one you describe is worth about 29.8 points (according to the distributions from this site).
They're both better than a "high fantasy" 20 point buy, though. (Unless you're unlucky, in which case it sucks to be you. :-)
My reply was more because of all the "mechanics" and length of explanation involved... lol.
I have no complaints about the results ;)
Uh...4d6-reroll-ones-drop-lowest is quite a bit better than the above-mentioned system, on average. The method BobChuck described is worth about a 21.375 point buy, on average, and the one you describe is worth about 29.8 points (according to the distributions from this site).Example: 15 point buy, rolling 2d4+6 in order results in str 13, dex 9, con 11, int 8, wis 13, cha 12. These are not the final stats, but the minimum value - they can only be raised, not lowered. These are good base for a warrior or cleric, and can be made to work for a paladin, druid, or monk, so let's try a monk. bump str to 14, dex to 10, con to 12, int to 10, and wis to 14, leaving cha alone; this results in 14, 10, 12, 10, 14, 12, which is 14 points, so take con to 13 and we're done.I'm starting to feel "inadequate" with my 4d6, re roll 1's and drop the lowest...
BobChuck helped me devise this sytem, so I thought I’d clarify. It’s a 15-point buy by definition. After you generate the initial array by rolling, stats are increased until the total value is 15 points. The character created in BobChuck’s example would have a initial array valued at 6 points, leaving him with 9 more to spend on increasing stats.
To address the issue of lower point buys favoring SAD classes over MAD classes, I’m experimenting in my current game with giving additional point buy points every level (and two at 4th, 8th, 12th, etc). Over 20 levels, someone who focuses exclusively on one stat should get ~4 increases while someone who spreads his points around will get closer to 7 or 8.
My reply was more because of all the "mechanics" and length of explanation involved... lol.
I think the explanation on my Kingmaker game’s house rules wiki is a bit more direct.
BobChuck helped me devise this sytem, so I thought I’d clarify. It’s a 15-point buy by definition.
Ah...gotcha!