This conundrum actually came up in my most recent session. A 4th level druid tossed a flaming sphere at the party, who was was hidden in a fog cloud, and the 4th level cleric tried to use create water to put out the sphere.
Now, although flaming sphere's description does say "it can be extinguished by any means that would put out a normal fire of its size", I was leery of allowing a zero-level at-will as-many-times-per-day-as-you'd-like spell to instantly nix a 2nd level spell -- and that's putting aside the fact that it's a 5'-diameter mass of flame.
So, I temporized. I treated it as though the cleric were attempting a dispel check -- d20 plus caster level, against a DC of 11 plus the druid's level. In the end it didn't matter, as the party maneuvered around the sphere and whacked the druid, but I'm curious as to how else people might've handled this situation.
Any thoughts?
This conundrum actually came up in my most recent session. A 4th level druid tossed a flaming sphere at the party, who was was hidden in a fog cloud, and the 4th level cleric tried to use create water to put out the sphere.
Now, although flaming sphere's description does say "it can be extinguished by any means that would put out a normal fire of its size", I was leery of allowing a zero-level at-will as-many-times-per-day-as-you'd-like spell to instantly nix a 2nd level spell -- and that's putting aside the fact that it's a 5'-diameter mass of flame.
So, I temporized. I treated it as though the cleric were attempting a dispel check -- d20 plus caster level, against a DC of 11 plus the druid's level. In the end it didn't matter, as the party maneuvered around the sphere and whacked the druid, but I'm curious as to how else people might've handled this situation.
Any thoughts?
Unfortunately I've closed my pdf's but wasn't there that stipulation you needed something to create the water in, like a bucket? Something about it being a conjuration spell and the abuse that was possible if conjuration spells were allowed to be created anywhere. (Wall of iron conjured above a creature so that it takes a great deal of damage from the iron falling onto the creature). I could be thinking of 3.5 though so take this with a grain of salt.
This conundrum actually came up in my most recent session. A 4th level druid tossed a flaming sphere at the party, who was was hidden in a fog cloud, and the 4th level cleric tried to use create water to put out the sphere.
Now, although flaming sphere's description does say "it can be extinguished by any means that would put out a normal fire of its size", I was leery of allowing a zero-level at-will as-many-times-per-day-as-you'd-like spell to instantly nix a 2nd level spell -- and that's putting aside the fact that it's a 5'-diameter mass of flame.
A high level caster's flaming sphere isn't any harder to snuff out than a lower level ones: its still essentially a normal fire. Create water is 2 gallons per level, so the question is how many gallons is enough to put out a campfire? Probably somewhere around 4 (since the sphere doesn't have the ashes and coals to cool off, which is the hard part of putting out a campfire)
I would let create water put out a flaming sphere.
BUT
The amount of water needed would be directed related to the level used to create the sphere. In other words, a flaming sphere cast by a 5th level druid would only be put out by a Create Water cast by a 6th level cleric/druid.
If a 5th level or lower were to cast the create water, then i would let the water put out surround normal fires, and nullify the damage of the sphere for only 1 round. The sphere would still exist, to be used next round as normal by the original caster (( water prevents damage this round, but not enough to cancel the spell effect )).
I do not see anything wrong with a low level caster spending 1 round each round nullifying the sphere, with create water each round.
Nor do i see anything wrong with a higher level caster canceling out the flaming sphere by a lower level caster with one use of create water once.
Since create water cannot be targeted beyond filling containers or creating a temporary downpour I think the flaming sphere should be safe.
Not according to the text of Create Water:
"This spell generates wholesome, drinkable water, just like clean rain water. Water can be created in an area as small as will actually contain the liquid, or in an area three times as large--possibly creating a downpour or........"
|
Flaming Sphere is a continually renewing source of MAGICAL fire. It moves as the caster directs it. It sticks around, for no other reason than magically directed to do so. To allow a 0-level spell to just willy nilly wipe it out is rather silly, IMHO.
I said willy nilly and silly in the same sentence. heh.
Ok, so what I would have done is this...figure out how many gallons of water the create water spell made...4th level? 8 gallons, and I would subract 8 from the damage done by the sphere. This would represent the fact that the water is dousing the sphere and limiting it in some manner but not completely wiping it out. The sphere does 3d6 damage, so the water being created on top of the sphere hinders it, but doesnt completely prevent it.
Ok, so what I would have done is this...figure out how many gallons of water the create water spell made...4th level? 8 gallons, and I would subract 8 from the damage done by the sphere. This would represent the fact that the water is dousing the sphere and limiting it in some manner but not completely wiping it out. The sphere does 3d6 damage, so the water being created on top of the sphere hinders it, but doesnt completely prevent it.
This seems like a great compromise. So 8 gallons of water means the sphere is now doing 3d6-8 damage. Spend another round dowsing it, and the fire's pretty much out -- 3d6-16 damage is going to be nothing (minimum 1?) most of the time.
Dowse any magical flame with enough water to cancel maximum damage, and you've extinguished it.
Flaming Sphere is a continually renewing source of MAGICAL fire. It moves as the caster directs it. It sticks around, for no other reason than magically directed to do so. To allow a 0-level spell to just willy nilly wipe it out is rather silly, IMHO.
I said willy nilly and silly in the same sentence. heh.
Ok, so what I would have done is this...figure out how many gallons of water the create water spell made...4th level? 8 gallons, and I would subract 8 from the damage done by the sphere. This would represent the fact that the water is dousing the sphere and limiting it in some manner but not completely wiping it out. The sphere does 3d6 damage, so the water being created on top of the sphere hinders it, but doesnt completely prevent it.
Right, because there's nothing magical about water that was just created out of thin air........
I suspect the extinguishing contingency was put on the spell from the beginning, because without it, it's WAY too good. Even with it, it's easily one of the best direct damage spells in the game. Think about it: at 10th level, in a combat in a target-rich, or cramped environment, this spell will do 30d6 damage in 10 rounds. 45d6 with Extend Spell, in the same time. Plus, the size of the fire never changes. Because of that, I've got issues with, say, a Flaming Sphere cast by one 9th level caster, which is 5' in diameter, not being outright put out by 18 gallons of water created by another 9th level caster. C'mon.
Sean, James, anybody have an opinion on this?
I suspect the extinguishing contingency was put on the spell from the beginning, because without it, it's WAY too good.
But you always get a saving throw for no damage. Eh. I don't think it's that awesome.
Ok, so what I would have done is this...figure out how many gallons of water the create water spell made...4th level? 8 gallons, and I would subract 8 from the damage done by the sphere. This would represent the fact that the water is dousing the sphere and limiting it in some manner but not completely wiping it out. The sphere does 3d6 damage, so the water being created on top of the sphere hinders it, but doesnt completely prevent it.
+1
|
|
Flaming Sphere is a continually renewing source of MAGICAL fire. It moves as the caster directs it. It sticks around, for no other reason than magically directed to do so. To allow a 0-level spell to just willy nilly wipe it out is rather silly, IMHO.
I said willy nilly and silly in the same sentence. heh.
Ok, so what I would have done is this...figure out how many gallons of water the create water spell made...4th level? 8 gallons, and I would subract 8 from the damage done by the sphere. This would represent the fact that the water is dousing the sphere and limiting it in some manner but not completely wiping it out. The sphere does 3d6 damage, so the water being created on top of the sphere hinders it, but doesnt completely prevent it.
Right, because there's nothing magical about water that was just created out of thin air........
I suspect the extinguishing contingency was put on the spell from the beginning, because without it, it's WAY too good. Even with it, it's easily one of the best direct damage spells in the game. Think about it: at 10th level, in a combat in a target-rich, or cramped environment, this spell will do 30d6 damage in 10 rounds. 45d6 with Extend Spell, in the same time. Plus, the size of the fire never changes. Because of that, I've got issues with, say, a Flaming Sphere cast by one 9th level caster, which is 5' in diameter, not being outright put out by 18 gallons of water created by another 9th level caster. C'mon.
Sean, James, anybody have an opinion on this?
Right, and what I am saying is this: The 9th lvl caster who summons the water to make 18 gallons, you then subtract the 18 from the damage done by the flaming sphere. Some people would suggest that this would then completely extinguish the magical sphere, but I would not rule it thus. The sphere remains in effect for the duration of the spell, but for that round it does not deal damage nor set things on fire. The next round, on the FS caster's turn, the flames spring back to life and the water summoning caster has a chance to douse it again. In essence an almost moot point at this level, as I hardly see Flaming Sphere being used that often by 9th lvl casters anyhow.
I would let create water put out a flaming sphere.
BUT
The amount of water needed would be directed related to the level used to create the sphere. In other words, a flaming sphere cast by a 5th level druid would only be put out by a Create Water cast by a 6th level cleric/druid.
If a 5th level or lower were to cast the create water, then i would let the water put out surround normal fires, and nullify the damage of the sphere for only 1 round. The sphere would still exist, to be used next round as normal by the original caster (( water prevents damage this round, but not enough to cancel the spell effect )).
I do not see anything wrong with a low level caster spending 1 round each round nullifying the sphere, with create water each round.
Nor do i see anything wrong with a higher level caster canceling out the flaming sphere by a lower level caster with one use of create water once.
Dumping the water on the fire.
So i guess 3rd level Fire Ball will be banned next, due to it being used to melt a 4th level wall of ice.
-----------------------
The spell Flaming sphere, says that it can be put out by any means that would put out a normal fire of its size.
So the question become how much water would it normal take to put out a flaming sphere. Now if you want to spend lots of time figuring this out, be my guest. I am sure someone else on this board will argue the point with you.
My Quick fly rules, for simgle, fun, fast.
I do not see anything wrong with a low level caster spending 1 round each round nullifying the sphere, with create water each round.
Nor do i see anything wrong with a higher level caster canceling out the flaming sphere by a lower level caster with one use of create water once.
Since create water cannot be targeted beyond filling containers or creating a temporary downpour I think the flaming sphere should be safe.
Not according to the text of Create Water:
"This spell generates wholesome, drinkable water, just like clean rain water. Water can be created in an area as small as will actually contain the liquid, or in an area three times as large--possibly creating a downpour or........"or filling many small receptacles.
The spell block isn't the only place where you need to check the rules and you didn't put the entire pertinent text in... I placed some important missing text in italics and bold. You are trying to make your point by pulling things out of context and leaving things out, ignoring things that don't make your case.
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
The only thing the spell does, is allow for the water to be created in an object. The general, overriding rule is that conjuration spells CANNOT just make things appear in empty space or in something else. The create water text states an exception to this rule where you can create water in a container OR above multiple smaller containers to capture the water. You still are unable to just make water appear over something like to put out a fire.
Creative Director
|
Sean, James, anybody have an opinion on this?
I do.
Cantrips are at-will, zero-level spells. They're not intended to be solutions to higher level problems, but things that minor magicians can do. They're also intended to be things that 1st or 2nd level casters can fall back on once their prepared spells or spell slots run out.
On top of that... create water is the single most troublemaking cantrip in the game; it really REALLY should have been bumped up to a 1st level spell, I think, in order to prevent arguments about "Why are there deserts in a world where any cleric can cast create water all day long?" (The answer there, of course, is casting a create water spell all day long doesn't make NEARLY the amount of water folks think it does... but that's another rant for another thread.) The point is, create water is already a VERY good cantrip.
As a result, letting it put out a flaming sphere is lame, I think.
One of my personal philosophies of spell design is that in order for a spell effect to auto cancel another spell effect, it needs to be at least equal level. Hence see invisibility vs. invisibility. If a cancel spell is lower level (as in faerie fire vs. invisibility), the lower level spell needs a pretty significant disadvantage (in order to faerie fire someone who's invisible, you still need to be able to actually target where they are, so it's hardly an auto uninvisibility).
So let's look at flaming sphere. The spell says it can be extinguished by any means that would normally put out a fire of its size—in this case, we're talking about a five foot diameter ball of fire. That's a Medium sized ball of fire. More fire than would fit in a bathtub... but let's say that a bathub of water is probably enough to put out that much fire. An average bathtub can, let's say, hold 70 gallons of water. That means that to fill a bathtub with one casting of create water, you'd need to be caster level 35. At which point I don't really have a problem with you using a cantrip to take out a 2nd level spell.
Even if we HALVE that average bathtub to, say, 35 gallons, you still need to be caster level 18th. At which point you'll probably have a LOT of other, better ways to handle a flaming sphere.
So... I would just say, just for sake of ease since you'd have to be so high level to put out a five foot diameter sphere of solid fire with a single dose of splashing water, that create water can't put out a flaming sphere.
Darn, James beat me to it . . .
I was going to ask, are you guys aware how large a five-foot diameter flaming ball of fire is? That's five feet, and we're talking about putting it out with that small an amount of water? >.>
I suspect the extinguishing contingency was put on the spell from the beginning, because without it, it's WAY too good.But you always get a saving throw for no damage. Eh. I don't think it's that awesome.
It's extremely situational, sure, but it can be very good at higher levels at big dumb things with crappy Reflex saves.
Since create water cannot be targeted beyond filling containers or creating a temporary downpour I think the flaming sphere should be safe.
Not according to the text of Create Water:
"This spell generates wholesome, drinkable water, just like clean rain water. Water can be created in an area as small as will actually contain the liquid, or in an area three times as large--possibly creating a downpour or........"or filling many small receptacles.
The spell block isn't the only place where you need to check the rules and you didn't put the entire pertinent text in... I placed some important missing text in italics and bold. You are trying to make your point by pulling things out of context and leaving things out, ignoring things that don't make your case.
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
I see. The downpour thing suggests otherwise, if you hadn't read the above ruling.
Sean, James, anybody have an opinion on this?So let's look at flaming sphere. The spell says it can be extinguished by any means that would normally put out a fire of its size—in this case, we're talking about a five foot diameter ball of fire. That's a Medium sized ball of fire. More fire than would fit in a bathtub... but let's say that a bathub of water is probably enough to put out that much fire. An average bathtub can, let's say, hold 70 gallons of water. That means that to fill a bathtub with one casting of create water, you'd need to be caster level 35. At which point I don't really have a problem with you using a...
Thanks, that's a big help.
To get the math on, a five-foot diameter sphere is a volume of 489.6 gallons. Dumping 8 gallons of water on an almost-500-gallon volume of fire isn't going to neutralize it, no.
To get the math on, a five-foot diameter sphere is a volume of 489.6 gallons. Dumping 8 gallons of water on an almost-500-gallon volume of fire isn't going to neutralize it, no.
Heh. Awesome! Thanks for the math support. : )
|
Since create water cannot be targeted beyond filling containers or creating a temporary downpour I think the flaming sphere should be safe.
Not according to the text of Create Water:
"This spell generates wholesome, drinkable water, just like clean rain water. Water can be created in an area as small as will actually contain the liquid, or in an area three times as large--possibly creating a downpour or........"or filling many small receptacles.
The spell block isn't the only place where you need to check the rules and you didn't put the entire pertinent text in... I placed some important missing text in italics and bold. You are trying to make your point by pulling things out of context and leaving things out, ignoring things that don't make your case.
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.The only thing the spell does, is allow for the water to be created in an object. The general, overriding rule is that conjuration spells CANNOT just make things appear in empty space or in something else. The create water text states an exception to this rule where you can create water in a container OR above multiple smaller containers to capture the water. You still are unable to just make water appear over something like to put out a fire.
No.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-waterhttp://dictionary.reference.com/browse/or
It can fill a receptacle OR create a downpour OR fill many small receptacles. Three things it can do.
Moot point though, as it doesn't make enough water to put out a 5 foot ball of fire until you are fairly high level, as someone else said.
2 Gallons of rainwater isn't really that much water. Think about a fishtank vs a 5 foot round ball of fire.
Sean, James, anybody have an opinion on this?I do.
Cantrips are at-will, zero-level spells. They're not intended to be solutions to higher level problems, but things that minor magicians can do. They're also intended to be things that 1st or 2nd level casters can fall back on once their prepared spells or spell slots run out.
(The answer there, of course, is casting a create water spell all day long doesn't make NEARLY the amount of water folks think it does... but that's another rant for another thread.) The point is, create water is already a VERY good cantrip.I can attest to this one. I worked (briefly) with the peace corps as an aggro forestry volunteer in Mauritania. Even with industrial pumps that put out more than 1 gallon a second you could only irrigate relatively small areas for crops. (mind you those pumps couldn't run as long as someone casting create water, but you'd be amazed what dry ground will soak up)
An average bathtub can, let's say, hold 70 gallons of water.I want that bathtub...
I think the problem with the math being expressed here is that it assumes that you need 1 gallon of water per 1 gallon of fire. I don't think that's the case. Water falling from above the sphere isn't going to be expended as it falls through: the fire isn't hot enough to split the water into hydrogen and oxygen, so the water is going to continue to deny oxygen to the fire as it falls through. I've made some fairly .. ahem.. excessive campfires before, and a bucket or two is usually enough to reduce them to a few ashes.
On top of that... create water is the single most troublemaking cantrip in the game; it really REALLY should have been bumped up to a 1st level spell, I think, in order to prevent arguments about "Why are there deserts in a world where any cleric can cast create water all day long?" (The answer there, of course, is casting a create water spell all day long doesn't make NEARLY the amount of water folks think it does... but that's another rant for another thread.) The point is, create water is already a VERY good cantrip.
Dear James,
Please don't give in and bump create water, detect magic or any of the cantrips/orisons. Reasonable gamers have no problem dealing with them, and unreasonable gamers, well, there isn't anything one can do about them anyway. Every spell is open to abuse and abusive interpretation. If you give in on 0-level spells, then you might as well just remove magic from the game entirely.
Haters gonna hate, munchkins gonna munch. Just the way of things.
Jacob