Hello
One of my player has a ranger with skill "Craft bow" opened.
If he takes Master Craftsman (craft bow) +Craft Magic Arms and Armor, may he make other magic melee weapon or magic armor/shield?
OR is he limited only to magic bows?Nothing in the feat Master Craftsman seems to prevent this. And i think it would be very "expensive" to buy 2 feats just to make only bows...
The limitation is not described fully by the feat's text, but in the section on magic item creation. The feat grants him a caster level for the purpose of any item reliant on the selected skill. It does not grant him a caster level for the purposes of items reliant on other skills, and as such these magical items cannot be crafted.
Each type of item is tied to one or more specific alternate skill(s); magic armor is tied to Craft (armor), magic swords to Craft (weapons), etc. The only weapons he can create with Master Craftsman [Craft (bows)] are magical bows and magical arrows. He cannot create any magical armor with this feat selection.
Crafting a mundane item (the craft skill) and crafting magic items (the various craft feats) are not necessarily related. Using the craft (bows) skill will let you manufacture your own mundane and masterwork bows. Using the craft magic arms and armor feat will let you make magic armor, magic swords and magic bows. You do not need to create your own masterwork item to enhance it by yourself. If you want to go purchase/requisition/find in a hoard a masterwork longsword, you can use your craft magic arms and armor feat to make it a +1 longsword.
Taking master craftsman simply gives you a caster level based on your craft skill.
Master Craftsman
Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.
Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.
Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.
Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.
Craft Magic Arms and Armor (Item Creation)
You can create magic armor, shields, and weapons.
Prerequisite: Caster level 5th.
Benefit: You can create magic weapons, armor, or shields. Enhancing a weapon, suit of armor, or shield takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in the price of its magical features. To enhance a weapon, suit of armor, or shield, you must use up raw materials costing half of this total price. See the magic item creation rules in Magic Items for more information.
The weapon, armor, or shield to be enhanced must be a masterwork item that you provide. Its cost is not included in the above cost.
You can also mend a broken magic weapon, suit of armor, or shield if it is one that you could make. Doing so costs half the raw materials and half the time it would take to craft that item in the first place.
I found nothing in the magic item creation section that states anything about the master craftsman feat. There was some text related to using skills during crafting, but that is pretty much limited to "(usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill)" which doesn't limit you to using a related skill.
The text of master craftsman just says that you use your craft skill as your caster level, not your craft skill as your caster level but only for things related to your craft skill. You don't need to specialize your wizard caster levels in (armor) or (weapons) or (bows), you just have a caster level. Like Defraeter says, it's a super expensive feat (and skill) investment to be so limited when any caster can be better out of the box. Throw the muggles a bone, I say.
RAW, it appears that five ranks in Profession (barrister) will allow you to use your amazing courtroom presence to craft any magic weapon, armor, or wondrous item once you have enough ranks in Profession (barrister) and take the appropriate crafting feat.
The feat does not limit your Craft or Profession skill to only allowing you to make certain related magic arms and armor or wondrous items, so it appears your Craft (baskets) skill applies just as well to making your sword flaming as anything else.
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... it appears your Craft (baskets) skill applies just as well to making your sword flaming as anything else.
Well the sword has a basket hilt so that's good. :)
RAW, it appears that five ranks in Profession (barrister) will allow you to use your amazing courtroom presence to craft any magic weapon, armor, or wondrous item once you have enough ranks in Profession (barrister) and take the appropriate crafting feat.
The feat does not limit your Craft or Profession skill to only allowing you to make certain related magic arms and armor or wondrous items, so it appears your Craft (baskets) skill applies just as well to making your sword flaming as anything else.
Consider the magic sword for a moment. As written, when one creates a magic item through a combination of an item creation feat and Master Craftsman:
"You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item."
So you would be limited to utilizing a Profession (barrister) check to evaluate your progress. However, the only two skills that can be used to create a magic sword, as written, are Spellcraft and Craft (weapons).
As the rules do not allow you to use Profession (barrister) to create a magic sword, and you can only use Profession (barrister) in combination with your Master Craftsman feat, you cannot make a magic sword. The same logic applies in this instance with Craft (bow):
Technically, you cannot use Profession to make anything, at all, period. So why would the feat include it?
The answer is you are using the skill to make the Magic Item which has nothing to do with the base item. I think of someone with Profession (Engraver) carving runes onto a shield to make it magical. You do not need Craft (Armor) to do that.
Imagine how incredibly skewed this system is for casters, they do not need any crafting skills what so ever, just Spellcraft, a skill the would use anyway. Give a man a break.
Technically, you cannot use Profession to make anything, at all, period. So why would the feat include it?
Please go through the link provided above, scroll through and look at the "Skills used in creation:" and note where it says "Profession (xyz)" on several of them towards the end.
If anyone is interested in a similar discussion, Kevin Andrew Murphy and I had a very interesting (and entertaining) discussion/exchange/challenge about using "non-traditional" crafts and professions for weapons, armor, and other things starting about here.
Make sure you read as far a KAM's example. It really is quite good.
Thanks all for your answers!
I am not sure what to do... but i think i will probably create a houserule, even if i don't like use houserule.
Something like increase creation DC of a "+5 DC" for enchanting other object than those include by the Craft skill of the Master Craftsman.
My ranger could make armor or melee weapon, or shield, or... at +5 DC for skipping the requirement of the craft skill.
The check will always be with Craft Bow of course.
If you're considering house rules to this end, might I recommend you simply alter Master Craftsman so that a player needs to specify a single skill only to determine which skill gains the +2 bonus and the the granted CL, and allow the feat's primary effect to benefit all of a characters Craft and Profession skills. In its changed form, progress towards an item's completion could then use different Craft or Profession checks as defined by the rules, and as you feel to be appropriate.
For instance, a character with 5 ranks in Craft (bow) and 2 ranks in Craft (weapons) would only need to take Master Craftsman [Craft (bow)]. When creating a magic bow, this character would have an effective CL of 5 and make Craft (bow) checks to evaluate the item's progress. That same character could also attempt to create a magic sword, in which case the character's effective CL would still be 5, but progress checks would be made with Craft (weapons).
This would represent a character that devotes himself to a single trade to the point that he can imbue his creations with magical energy without having access to magic normally. At the same time, the principles of enchanting items learned by this character could also be applied to any other trades he dabbles in, though such a character is unlikely to be as proficient in these secondary skills as in his primary trade.
RAW, it appears that five ranks in Profession (barrister) will allow you to use your amazing courtroom presence to craft any magic weapon, armor, or wondrous item once you have enough ranks in Profession (barrister) and take the appropriate crafting feat.
The feat does not limit your Craft or Profession skill to only allowing you to make certain related magic arms and armor or wondrous items, so it appears your Craft (baskets) skill applies just as well to making your sword flaming as anything else.Consider the magic sword for a moment. As written, when one creates a magic item through a combination of an item creation feat and Master Craftsman:
"You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item."
So you would be limited to utilizing a Profession (barrister) check to evaluate your progress. However, the only two skills that can be used to create a magic sword, as written, are Spellcraft and Craft (weapons).
That's not what the feat says. To craft the mundane item, you need the appropriate Craft skill. But any Craft or Profession skill can be used in the place of Spellcraft and caster level for crafting the enchantments. There are no limitations listed in the Master Craftsman description like the one you're requiring.
RAW, any Craft or Profession skill allows for any magical crafting with those two crafting feats.
That's not what the feat says. To craft the mundane item, you need the appropriate Craft skill. But any Craft or Profession skill can be used in the place of Spellcraft and caster level for crafting the enchantments. There are no limitations listed in the Master Craftsman description like the one you're requiring.
RAW, any Craft or Profession skill allows for any magical crafting with those two crafting feats.
I never claimed the limitation was mentioned in the feat description; Master Craftsman only states that the specified skill has to be used for progress checks. The limitation itself, that states what skills can replace Spellcraft for the purposes of creating different kinds of items, is defined in the general section for crafting magic items.
I never claimed the limitation was mentioned in the feat description; Master Craftsman only states that the specified skill has to be used for progress checks. The limitation itself, that states what skills can replace Spellcraft for the purposes of creating different kinds of items, is defined in the general section for crafting magic items.
Could you be more specific about the reference? All I can find is this:
"At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single
skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to
f inish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you
choose which skill to make the check with."
Could you be more specific about the reference? All I can find is this:
"At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single
skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to
f inish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you
choose which skill to make the check with."
If you continue to read about creating specific types of magic items, the text elaborates what skills can be used to craft such items. For example, under the heading "Creating Magic Weapons", you will find the following:
Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (bows) (for magic bows and arrows), or Craft (weapons) (for all other weapons).
I'm not sure how I missed that before. It seems that you are right, Agent. I guess that, were I to houserule this at my table, I would fold craft (bows) into craft (weapons) and call it a day. I don't see why making a whip, battle axe and crossbow can all be done with the same skill, but bows require a different skill.
Actually, Defraeter, the text does seem to imply that to enhance a set of armor, you must use either Spellcraft or Craft (armor). To enhance a non-bow weapon, you can use Spellcraft or Craft (weapon). To enhance a bow, you seem to be limited to Spellcraft or Craft (bow). This really seems to be the RAW. As I mentioned, I would rule that Craft (bow) is rolled into Craft (weapon), meaning that the singular skill investment would let you create and enhance any weapon type.
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Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (bows) (for magic bows and arrows), or Craft (weapons) (for all other weapons).
Well that's lame. How is a bow not a weapon?
But is what creators intended? I find the feat too expensive.
That is the kicker, isn't it? Unless the designers step in and clarify what they envisioned, we have no way to know how any aspect of the game was intended to function. As such, for the sake of general rules discussions, we have to stick to the RAW and assume that it is the RAI.
Luckily, we don't have to follow the RAW in our home games if we disagree with them. :D
Hello
One of my player has a ranger with skill "Craft bow" opened.
If he takes Master Craftsman (craft bow) +Craft Magic Arms and Armor, may he make other magic melee weapon or magic armor/shield?
OR is he limited only to magic bows?Nothing in the feat Master Craftsman seems to prevent this. And i think it would be very "expensive" to buy 2 feats just to make only bows...
As a ranger, he's a spellcaster. Have him take ranks in Spellcraft and any item creation feat he wants. He won't need Master Craftsman ever.
In the Kingmaker campaign I am playing in, the GM has made a ruling that Master Craftsman combined with Create Magic Arms and Armour allows my character to enchant any weapon or armour (though admittedly I haven't raised the issue of bows). That is, he doesn't need to take Master Craftsman twice - once for Armoursmith and once for Weaponsmith (which is what we took RAW to require). I have skills in Craft(Armoursmith) and Craft (Weaponsmith) to use towards enchanting arms and armour.
I kind of see it as a bit like the scene in Conan the Barbarian where young Conan's dad makes the magic sword. He has no inherent magical skills but through his mastery of his craft he can turn the weapons he makes into magic ones. As opposed to Mr Random Wizard, with Create Magic Arms and Armour, who locks himself in his study, mutters a few incantations and hey presto! the sword is magic.
Different process, same result.
The fact that you need ranks in the relevant skill could suggest that the crafter needs to make the weapon himself and as part of that process the weapon becomes magical, as opposed to just buying a bunch of MW weapons at 300 or so GP each and spend a day turning them into +1 weapons, without slaving over a hot forge creating the MW weapons himself. That is, Conan's dad's method as opposed to Mr Random Wizard.
But RAW would suggest the latter method is how the process works, even if the former has more RP appeal. If I was DMing I wouldn't allow a random skill to be the prerequisite for enchanting a weapon. Spellcraft would be the only alternative to not having ranks in the skill directly relevant to the weapon or armour you are enchanting.
It is an expensive process in terms of feats and skills for a non-caster, even for a fighter like my character. Especially as in my case he is also our ruler so is spending skills and feats to make him a better ruler. He certainly isn't optimised as a fighter but is fun to RP :)