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Situation is player wants to make a Adamantite Dwarven Waraxe.
Adamantite Dwarven Waraxe cost 3030 GP cost in silver = 30300
Characters craft skill +8 with Masterwork tools +10
So to make the masterwork portion of the item DC:20 X DC20 of his craft skill taking 10 = 400SP per week taking 7.5 weeks
Adamantite Dwarven Waraxe portion of the item DC:18 X 20 of his craft skill DC = 360 SP per week = 84.1 weeks
For a grand total of 91.6 weeks.
Is this correct or am I reading the rules totally incorrectly?
Situation is player wants to make a Adamantite Dwarven Waraxe.
Adamantite Dwarven Waraxe cost 3030 GP cost in silver = 30300
Characters craft skill +8 with Masterwork tools +10
So to make the masterwork portion of the item DC:20 X DC20 of his craft skill taking 10 = 400SP per week taking 7.5 weeks
Adamantite Dwarven Waraxe portion of the item DC:18 X 20 of his craft skill DC = 360 SP per week = 84.1 weeks
For a grand total of 91.6 weeks.
Is this correct or am I reading the rules totally incorrectly?
Masterwork cost is included in the price of adamantine, so I don't think you'd add the +300gp cost to the crafting cost. I'd keep the DC 20, though.
But yeah, you've got that right. He's like, what, level 4 or 5? And he's also not exactly primed for this. Adamantine isn't something everyone can craft or make, either. It's a very rare, extremely durable material that would probably take a hell of a long time to pound into the correct shape. In fluff, I think it even requires a special kind of gas forge that's only present in certain parts of Golarion.
If he gave it to a reputable and talented blacksmith (level 5 expert, 16 int) of the right race (gnomish obsessive racial trait) with the right feats (skill focus: craft: weaponsmithing) and the right help (a dedicated assistant, masterwork tools) he could have someone his level with 5+3+3+2+3+2+2 = +20 on the same check.
That blacksmith could raise the DC by 10 to make it DC 30 and take a 10 for a 30. He'd make 900sp of progress a week for 34 weeks of work.
Consider that your friend with a +10 could easily make a masterwork dwarven waraxe (3300) in about 8 weeks or a normal dwarven waraxe in one week. That sounds about right for having a +8 baseline in the skill.
Crafting is just like other portions of the game. You have to specialize and super-specialize to be able to make and do extremely complicated things. Crafting a weapon out of adamantine in a short time period is just like casting wish, or having instantly-confirmed criticals that also decapitate. It's something that gnomish blacksmith could do if they were level 20. 20+3+8+2+6+2+10= +51, add in a magical item like a hammer to give them a +10 competence bonus on craft, they raise the DC from 20 to 30 to 40 to 50 to 60 and take a ten for 61 x 60. They have it done in 9 weeks.
On the flip side, a 9th level wizard could just fabricate it done. I'm annoyed the spell exists in that it makes most mundane crafters obsolete, but with how long crafting takes, you basically either have to accept that a lot of experts are high level or that most staffs need a 9th level wizard on call at all times so that your business doesn't go under.
I read the rule the same. It is the adamantine that really gets you. At 3000 GP, it is 83 wks of work by itself. It would even take a master nearly a year to complete. Considering this is one of the best non-magical weapons in the game, I think the craft time is fair.
I read the rule the same. It is the adamantine that really gets you. At 3000 GP, it is 83 wks of work by itself. It would even take a master nearly a year to complete. Considering this is one of the best non-magical weapons in the game, I think the craft time is fair.
...or you could just skip through and have a magical weapon made in an afternoon and still have time to get to the pub for a dinner and a pint.
It's not the mundane item creation that is borked, its the Magical stuff that is whacky.
Use Laurelfindel's rules. (too lazy to do forum search for you right now, sorry)
If you want something quick and dirty and you don't mind GM judgment calls, please feel welcome to my house rule on this page.
Craft is one of those things we all knew was broken during the alpha and beta playtests, but there just wasn't time or space to give it the fix it deserves.
Fortunately, a lot of people have come up with long form solutions for the few players who actually use these skills. I think there are even a few PDF products available to that end.
Good luck!
Use Laurelfindel's rules. (too lazy to do forum search for you right now, sorry)
If you want something quick and dirty and you don't mind GM judgment calls, please feel welcome to my house rule on this page.
Craft is one of those things we all knew was broken during the alpha and beta playtests, but there just wasn't time or space to give it the fix it deserves.
Fortunately, a lot of people have come up with long form solutions for the few players who actually use these skills. I think there are even a few PDF products available to that end.
Good luck!
I have yet to find a copy of those rules on the forums or in a google search. Maybe 'findel can repost them? Or a link to them?
I have yet to find a copy of those rules on the forums or in a google search. Maybe 'findel can repost them? Or a link to them?Will a link to a post in these forums where 'findel linked to the most recent version suffice?
That thread also includes links to the original discussions.
, thanks freesword!
Pro Tip: Don't craft.
I have yet to find a copy of those rules on the forums or in a google search. Maybe 'findel can repost them? Or a link to them?Use Laurelfindel's rules. (too lazy to do forum search for you right now, sorry)
If you want something quick and dirty and you don't mind GM judgment calls, please feel welcome to my house rule on this page.
Craft is one of those things we all knew was broken during the alpha and beta playtests, but there just wasn't time or space to give it the fix it deserves.
Fortunately, a lot of people have come up with long form solutions for the few players who actually use these skills. I think there are even a few PDF products available to that end.
Good luck!
Someone summoned me?
Linky to crafty rules... I'm currently working on a lighter versions of those rules. Not quite ready however, but my goal is to cut the word count by at least 2.
'findel
I would love to see the expression on the craftsmans face when he finally presents the m/work axe to the PC two years later and the player looks at it like it is contagious and hands it to a henchman, pointing out that he hasn't TOUCHED a mundane item since the midlevels.
"That whole mundane thing is SOOOOO low-rent E6 pedestrian magic campaign..."
The players all shake their heads.
Pro Tip: Don't craft after character creation unless you're playing in Kingmaker and have arbitrarily long lengths of time between adventures.
The item isn't supposed to take longer to make than a regular masterwork weapon. I read it somewhere and i'm trying to find it/
I think its a bit like MMO's.
By the time youhave dumped enough time, money, and grindage into getting your crafting skills up you have by far and away passed even the vaguest need for what you can produce. The gear is only good for novelty value or equipping friends of a lower level.
The item isn't supposed to take longer to make than a regular masterwork weapon. I read it somewhere and i'm trying to find it/
Dragonhide appears to have this caveat:
Dragonhide: Armorsmiths can work with the hides of dragons to produce armor or shields of masterwork quality. One dragon produces enough hide for a single suit of masterwork hide armor for a creature one size category smaller than the dragon. By selecting only choice scales and bits of hide, an armorsmith can produce one suit of masterwork banded mail for a creature two sizes smaller, one suit of masterwork half-plate for a creature three sizes smaller, or one masterwork breastplate or suit of full plate for a creature four sizes smaller. In each case, enough hide is available to produce a light or heavy masterwork shield in addition to the armor, provided that the dragon is Large or larger. If the dragonhide comes from a dragon that had immunity to an energy type, the armor is also immune to that energy type, although this does not confer any protection to the wearer. If the armor or shield is later given the ability to protect the wearer against that energy type, the cost to add such protection is reduced by 25%.
Because dragonhide armor isn't made of metal, druids can wear it without penalty.
Dragonhide armor costs twice as much as masterwork armor of that type, but it takes no longer to make than ordinary armor of that type (double all Craft results).
but I could not find one for the other materials in the core book.
Pro Tip: Don't craft after character creation unless you're playing in Kingmaker and have arbitrarily long lengths of time between adventures.
Fair enough, but even then there's got to be a better way to spend your time.
I wouldn't raise the crafting time by this amount only because of the material, I think this is a clear area for houserules.
I encourage players to use crafting skills, this create much more personal items then going into a blacksmith shop and simply buy them, so I would go with a acceptybly timeframe for it (little bit google search, experience etc.), in this case deviding the time by 10, so simply use gps instead of sp...
I've always felt that the cost of the actual dragon hide should not be included in dragon hide armor.
I mean, not only can I pay a group of epic adventurers to find and kill a Great Wyrm Red Dragon for the hide to make my Breastplate, but I can also pay a smith to make it all for only 400gp? Sweet deal!
If I pay a little extra, can I have the whole dragon? Just stuff it an put it out on the lawn.
I've always felt that the cost of the actual dragon hide should not be included in dragon hide armor.
I mean, not only can I pay a group of epic adventurers to find and kill a Great Wyrm Red Dragon for the hide to make my Breastplate, but I can also pay a smith to make it all for only 400gp? Sweet deal!
If I pay a little extra, can I have the whole dragon? Just stuff it an put it out on the lawn.
I think dragon hide armors were priced based on their utility rather than what one might suppose is their rarity. It just doesn't seem to make sense to me that there would be enough great wyrm dragons out there, or enough skilled adventurers to take them out and create a market for making breastplates out of their scales.
I read the rule the same. It is the adamantine that really gets you. At 3000 GP, it is 83 wks of work by itself. It would even take a master nearly a year to complete. Considering this is one of the best non-magical weapons in the game, I think the craft time is fair....or you could just skip through and have a magical weapon made in an afternoon and still have time to get to the pub for a dinner and a pint.
It's not the mundane item creation that is borked, its the Magical stuff that is whacky.
Making the sword magic just adds to the time as you still need the Masterwork weapon.
In our game we changed the Master Alchemist feat from the APG to Master Craftsman. So you can apply to Craft Alchemy or Craft Armor and Weapons. Not that player took this but we did have situation where Master Craftsman in the game were I bought a Mitheral Breast plate could make the the item in a few weeks instead the much longer time it worked out to.
Pretty sure that special materials costs should not be rolled up into the crafting time. I know that is how we have been playing it in our campaign, and I thought I saw a ruling to that effect.
I am not normally one for talking about a Pathfinder 2nd Edition, since I think it should be years before such a book becomes necessary — but this particular issue is something I would like to see fixed in such an edition, in the distant future where it occurs.
I am not normally one for talking about a Pathfinder 2nd Edition, since I think it should be years before such a book becomes necessary — but this particular issue is something I would like to see fixed in such an edition, in the distant future where it occurs.
Agreed. This and at least a couple other rules as well need good overhauls.
Pretty sure that special materials costs should not be rolled up into the crafting time. I know that is how we have been playing it in our campaign, and I thought I saw a ruling to that effect.
On the grand scale, you have to consider EVERY increase of market price (including special materials like adamentine) as an increase in crafting time otherwise the "economical balance" is tipped off.
While this is not concerning adventurers so much, every NPCs would be much better off to make items out of rare materials if they could if it didn't increase to crafting time. Same time to craft but +2000gp net benefit for an adamentine weapon? Screw ordinary masterwork weapons!
Therefore in order to make thing equally attractive, special materials need to result in an increase of crafting time to remained balanced.
'findel
Isn't the mere price a limitation by itself? Most low level NPC cannot even THINK about purchase adamantine...
Pretty sure that special materials costs should not be rolled up into the crafting time. I know that is how we have been playing it in our campaign, and I thought I saw a ruling to that effect.On the grand scale, you have to consider EVERY increase of market price (including special materials like adamentine) as an increase in crafting time otherwise the "economical balance" is tipped off.
While this is not concerning adventurers so much, every NPCs would be much better off to make items out of rare materials if they could if it didn't increase to crafting time. Same time to craft but +2000gp net benefit for an adamentine weapon? Screw ordinary masterwork weapons!
Therefore in order to make thing equally attractive, special materials need to result in an increase of crafting time to remained balanced.
'findel
Yes, and people do in real life. This is realistic to me. The problem is that the material is rare. Thus it is hard to get. Gold is more valuable than silver, so when there is demand for gold jewlry a jewler is going to make more gold rings, which should take roughly the same ammount of time. Its not until that demand starts to tapper is he going to bother with silver. He then sells it and takes a percentage of the cost, not a fixed ammount based off time he spent. He marks up both 20% off the cost of materials. The gold is more proffitable to him, so long as there is enough demand that they both sell.
Most crafters would not switch to adamantine weapons because A. there isn't enough demand for the increased price and B. the material is hard to get. Most craftsment will be glad to get a chance to work with adamantine in their lifetime. You don't just craft expensive items for the fun of it though.
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It's not just demand. If you've got a metal you can only get out of certain rare asteroid strikes then there's not a lot available.
Even if you can afford the adamantine you can only get enough for two axe-heads in a year: you might make those two axe-heads but you're better off making steel weapons the rest of the year, rather than sitting on your hands.
A friend had a quick houserule where special materials doubled or tripled the crafting time, regardless of the actual additional cost. Silver and cold iron weapons doubled the target GP value, while mithral and adamantine tripled it. It worked out well enough, but it still made crafting such a pain in the butt. Our campaign involved a military invasion on a huge scale, so we couldn't just wait around for a month while someone made a single sword.
"Hey, man, long time no see! What's it been, like a year?"
"Woah, hey! Yeah, at least! Man, you look good!"
"Well, you know how it is - lost a few pounds, gained a few levels, heh. The gang all says hi, by the way. You know, we really miss adventuring with you. Anyway, how's the crafting coming along?"
"Great! I'm almost done!"
"Hey, that's super... Wait, almost done what?"
"The sword, silly."
"Right, right. Uhm, which sword is that again?"
*holds up hunk of ore* "This one!"
"Wow, that.. that is just a big hunk of ore."
"Yeah, I know. Adamantine, right? What a pain."
"Ah, sure.. so, uhm.. you've been working on this one thing for a year now?"
"Over a year, yeah. Almost done!"
"Almost?"
"Yep! Just ten, maybe twenty weeks more to go and it'll be finished!"
"But.. but it's still a hunk of ore."
"Well, yeah. Duh. This cost thousands of gold."
"... and that makes it, what, slower?"
"Yep."
"So slow that you've been working on it for a year-"
"Over a year."
"-over a year, and it's still a hunk of ore?"
"Well, yeah, but it'll start looking like a sword in, like, a couple months."
"Out of curiosity, what have you actually been doing with it until now?"
"You know. Smithy stuff."
"Right."
"Yep. And once it's done, I can come adventuring with you guys again! I haven't looked at my sheet in a while, but I think I'm pretty close to 5th level. I've had a lot of time to think about which feat to take."
"I'll bet you have. You know, we're all like level 18 now."
"Is that so? Hunh, well.. that's a little awkward."
"Yeeeah."
"But I bet none of you have cool adamantine swords!"
"Actually, we pretty much all just found our own... er.. I mean, no. No we don't. You have us beat there!"
"Awesome! Well, I'd better get back to work. See you after the new year!"
Yes, and people do in real life. This is realistic to me.
Therefore in order to make thing equally attractive, special materials need to result in an increase of crafting time to remained balanced.'findel
Yes, and it is realistic to me too! Unfortunately, that's not how it currently works.
Don't get me wrong, what you say makes perfect sense and I wholly agree with it, but in its attempt to balance everything, 3rd edition made a craft system based on the market price in order to have a standard gp/day rate for everything (well, not quite since a higher DC results in a higher gp/day ratio). Nevertheless, the craft system makes sure that an optimized player does not start to mass-produce adamantine axes because their gp/day ratio is about 20 times that of a masterwork axe. By RAW, nothing prevents that because the rules do not consider demand and availability (its Dungeons & Dragons after all, not Economics & Accountants). Demand and availability are of the domain of DM fiat and the rules of 3E are careful not to tread these paths.
This means that we're left with the "golden cannonball" conundrum. The only rational way out of it is to accept that a 50 lbs cannonball of pure gold is crafted as a 5 gp item (its "normal" iron equivalent) + 50 lbs worth of gold, not a 2505 gp item even if that would be its market price. Unfortunately, this is a house rule as far as I know.
'findel
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Contributor
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When it comes to adamantine, and possibly a few other materials, I imagine it would take significantly longer to work. It does mean that having items crafted of these materials is going to involve a lot of downtime, true, but we are talking about a material with a hardness of 20, it's going to take much longer to hammer into a reasonable shape. Cold iron would be a similar challenge, due to it's brittle nature. Even mithral might be resistant to normal smithing.
If that doesn't work for your campaign, house rule it, but it really actually does make a lot of sense...
When it comes to adamantine, and possibly a few other materials, I imagine it would take significantly longer to work. It does mean that having items crafted of these materials is going to involve a lot of downtime, true, but we are talking about a material with a hardness of 20, it's going to take much longer to hammer into a reasonable shape. Cold iron would be a similar challenge, due to it's brittle nature. Even mithral might be resistant to normal smithing.
If that doesn't work for your campaign, house rule it, but it really actually does make a lot of sense...
Yes, it will. But on an order of magnitude more? We are talking a month or 2 for a masterwork sword and 20+ months for a adamantine one. A x2 or x3 multiplier that someone else mentioned is appropriate. A x10 multiplier is not.
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If someone does indeed know where there is a rule stating that the material costs of the non standard materials are not added into the crafting time of the items please point it out to me. As i see it as the rules are written the price of the rare materials are added into the crafting time commitment of the item.
Here is the thing about most crafting type stuff in real life - almost no one does it completely alone.
Add a whole bunch of helpers (level 1 experts) and spread the work around. If something takes 8o weeks, get 10 guys, and do it in 8 weeks.
There is a place for that amazing sword that takes some poor schnook a lifetime to craft, but if you want to be an adventurer, your going to have to learn to delegate.
Here is the thing about most crafting type stuff in real life - almost no one does it completely alone.
Add a whole bunch of helpers (level 1 experts) and spread the work around. If something takes 8o weeks, get 10 guys, and do it in 8 weeks.
There is a place for that amazing sword that takes some poor schnook a lifetime to craft, but if you want to be an adventurer, your going to have to learn to delegate.
True.
As a matter of fact, many products are not manufactured by one single party. Even during the low middle age, a sword's blade would be made by one craftsman (and its apprentices), hilted by another and grinded and sharpened by yet another specialist. The jewelry, etchings, decoration and scabbard would involve other distinct craftsmen, all helped by journeymen and apprentices.
But a RPG needs to represent reality only so far as to make it believable. It also needs to represent the mythical stuff of legend from which it draws its inspiration.
Unfortunately, it is my opinion that the current craft system does not succeed in representing either very well, but this is an old rambling...
'findel
On the flip side, a 9th level wizard could just fabricate it done. I'm annoyed the spell exists in that it makes most mundane crafters obsolete, but with how long crafting takes, you basically either have to accept that a lot of experts are high level or that most staffs need a 9th level wizard on call at all times so that your business doesn't go under.That 9th level wizard however would be hard put to make the crafting check if he's not specifically specced out for it. Otherwise you're talking about a lot of ruined adamantium there.
"Hard put?" Hardly.
18 base intelligence (+4)+2 headband of intelligence (+1)
+1 stat point at levels 4 and 8 into Int (+1)
1 rank in Craft: Weaponsmithing (+1) and the trained bonus (+3)
= +10
DC20 to craft it. Take a ten. 20. Bam.
Cost: 1 skill rank. If your employer wanted more elaborate items, he could just buy you a special headband with ranks in craft: ~whatever~ and get you another +8 bonus to that take ten.
On the flip side, a 9th level wizard could just fabricate it done. I'm annoyed the spell exists in that it makes most mundane crafters obsolete, but with how long crafting takes, you basically either have to accept that a lot of experts are high level or that most staffs need a 9th level wizard on call at all times so that your business doesn't go under.headband with ranks in craft: ~whatever~ and get you another +8 bonus to that take ten.
I would like to interject with some context. 9th level is the highest level caster NPC you will see in friendly towns and cities. We are talking high priests, viziers, VIP wizards. These people are generally to busy to cast fabricate (or similar rules-bending spells), but in an emergency they could. Sure you might have an occasional 15th level golem-crafting wizard in your big coastal city but he is not going to take your messages as he is too busy adventuring on the outer planes.
Another point to make here is that after 6th level, the physics of the game start to move from semi-realistic to super-heroic. So this hypothetical 9th level wizard has a SUPERHUMAN intellect that allows him to craft items of intricate complexity with only minimal training.
All in all That seems in keeping with the balance of the rest of the skills in the game. DC 20 is difficult for low level characters without max ranks. But when your character reaches 6+ levels and becomes "superhuman", the "human" challenges are less of an issue.
My preferred house rule is that special materials (as well as anything else you can argue this should apply to) are added into the item at full cost without increasing the crafting time.
In other words, a sword that costs +3000 gp because it's made of adamantine, requires 3000 gp worth of adamantine raw materials.
It doesn't take any longer than a normal masterwork sword to craft, but it also doesn't turn any more profit than a normal masterwork sword. Which means I as a weaponsmith am less likely to make special material weapons even if I can find the material, because the market for them is smaller and my profit margin is the same.
My preferred house rule is that special materials (as well as anything else you can argue this should apply to) are added into the item at full cost without increasing the crafting time.
In other words, a sword that costs +3000 gp because it's made of adamantine, requires 3000 gp worth of adamantine raw materials.
It doesn't take any longer than a normal masterwork sword to craft, but it also doesn't turn any more profit than a normal masterwork sword. Which means I as a weaponsmith am less likely to make special material weapons even if I can find the material, because the market for them is smaller and my profit margin is the same.
I like that a lot. Nicely done :D
My preferred house rule is that special materials (as well as anything else you can argue this should apply to) are added into the item at full cost without increasing the crafting time.
In other words, a sword that costs +3000 gp because it's made of adamantine, requires 3000 gp worth of adamantine raw materials.
It doesn't take any longer than a normal masterwork sword to craft, but it also doesn't turn any more profit than a normal masterwork sword. Which means I as a weaponsmith am less likely to make special material weapons even if I can find the material, because the market for them is smaller and my profit margin is the same.
That's the way I went in my houserules too (with a homebrew feat to make money out of the special materials).
That's the only way you can (logically) escape the "golden cannonball" conundrum.
'findel
One more minor contribution, a feat:
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Efficient Craftsman
By paying constant close attention to your crafting progress, you are able to eke out every ounce of productivity within your ability.
Prereqs: Skill Focus in a Craft Skill, Craft 5 ranks, Appraise 5 ranks
Benefit: Whenever you succeed a check in a Craft skill for which you meet this feat's prerequisites, the DC of the check becomes equal to your Craft check for purposes of determining your progress. For example, a Craft check result of 20 on a DC 15 Craft check would usually result in 300 sp of progress, but an Efficient Craftsman would make 400 sp of progress instead.
Does this seem too good? If so, I thought up a weaker prereq feat for it.
Running into this issue in my Kingmaker campaign as well, but with simply masterwork weapons and armor rather than special materials. The simple fact is that the players can easily accumulate enough money to buy masterwork weapons and armor (or even magic ones), quicker than they can craft them. I don't particularly have a problem with this, as I think crafting is something that really should be something done on down time between adventures rather than during the adventure. It is annoying to those who see crafting as part of their character concept, however.
My real problem is how long it takes in comparison to the relative ease and simplicity with which casters can make magic items. Seems like a pretty severe imbalance to me. I would probably lean toward fixing by making magic crafting harder and longer rather than making mundane crafting easier and quicker, though.
My group is going to evaluate all of the crafting rules based on my experience with the Kingmaker campaign, with its long breaks between adventures, and may do some significatn houseruling after that.
One more minor contribution, a feat:
.
.
.
.
Efficient Craftsman
By paying constant close attention to your crafting progress, you are able to eke out every ounce of productivity within your ability.
Prereqs: Skill Focus in a Craft Skill, Craft 5 ranks, Appraise 5 ranks
Benefit: Whenever you succeed a check in a Craft skill for which you meet this feat's prerequisites, the DC of the check becomes equal to your Craft check for purposes of determining your progress. For example, a Craft check result of 20 on a DC 15 Craft check would usually result in 300 sp of progress, but an Efficient Craftsman would make 400 sp of progress instead.Does this seem too good? If so, I thought up a weaker prereq feat for it.
Given that a PC *can't* sell an item at more than 50% of its market price even if it just got crafted, it shouldn't really get out of hand even with a result of 40+. You may end-up with surprising results (you crafted 3200 arrows in one day!) but nothing that should break the game.
However, it does make the "voluntarily add +10 to the indicated DC to craft an item faster" rule rather obsolete.
'findel