I recently concluded our second game in our current campaign, and I am so proud of how my players handled themselves, I felt I should share it with all of you. Hopefully, it will serve to inspire you.
The PCs (sorcerer/dragon disciple, fighter, and paladin) all hail from the same small town, which they've had to defend from escalating waves of true devils.
Not having any idea what these horrible monsters were, where they came from, or why they were attacking the town, the PCs launched an investigation. After several dead ends they had precious few answers. However, they did pick up on a rumor of a great sage to the north who specialized in creatures from other worlds. Though the PCs didn't know what they were fighting, they knew it to be unnatural, and so they set out on a quest in hopes of finding this great sage: Paegin.
After traveling for many days (encountering a number of minor hazards along the way and finding a folding boat in one encounter) they came across a covered wagon to the side of the road. It's wheel had broken on a boulder and a hunched figure in a heavy cloak sat next to it crying in frustration at not being able to repair it.
The party's paladin approached the stranded traveler and offered to help.
When the PCs came close, they realized too late that the traveler wasn't crying in frustration, but was laughing in chaotic glee. The traveler/gnoll in disguise leaped up out of his heavy cloak and blew his battle horn. Suddenly, a quartet of dire hyenas bearing four elite gnoll warriors with guisarmes burst forth out of the nearby woods along with a pack of regular hyenas. The cover on the wagon fell away revealing no less than ten more gnoll warriors armed with spears and tanglefoot bags. From the sky came a black-furred gnoll in dark robes--the bandit leader--riding upon a flying, phantasmal, demonic dire hyena. The gnolls glued the fighter and paladin to the ground with their tanglefoot bags, while their leader surrounded the PCs in a burning hot wall of fire that would slowly roast the alive. Many of the minor gnolls taunted and cackled in glee as they readied actions to engage any enemy who might yet come through the wall of fire.
Once the tangling goo became brittle, the fighter and paladin attempted to escape the ambush by fighting their way out of the magical oven (killing many of the standard gnolls and taking lots of fire damage as they did so), but it was to no avail. The elite gnolls would charge in on their dire hyenas and bull rush them back into the flames of the ring of fire (causing them to take damage a second time).
The party sorcerer had better luck. The tanglefoot bags missed him entirely and he made his concentration checks to cast invisibility and fly despite the ongoing damage from being inside a bonfire. A moment after the sorcerer took to the air, the leader of the gnolls hit those within the circle with a lingering fireball (causing 10d6 damage to the PCs right away, and once again whenever they were bull rushed into the area by the surrounding gnolls).
Though the fighter and paladin were killing gnolls left and right, the deadly trifecta of lingering fireballs, the ring of fire, and the bullrushing enemies was wearing them down fast.
Early on in the encounter the gnoll leader kept his distance, relying on his long range lingering fireballs and his minions to decimate his enemies. When the battle was nearly won, the flying invisible sorcerer had finally caught up to the gnoll leader and opted to drop his folding boat on the enemy sorcerer below!
The moment he declared his intention, the table went quite, then suddenly everyone burst out laughing at the clever idea.
A giant sailing ship came crashing down upon the unsuspecting gnoll leader and his phantom steed, dealing relatively small amounts of damage, but destroying his steed and pinning him helplessly under hundreds of pounds of wreckage in the process.
When the other gnolls realized that their powerful spellcasting leader had fallen, many of them scattered, while others moved to defend their lord and master.
The sorcerer was moments away from coup de gracing the leader when one of its minions called Peagin's name.
The sorcerer stopped in confusion. "You're the great sage Paegin?" he asked.
"Yes! Yes! I am Paegin! Famed sage and diabolist. Spare my life and I will give you anything, tell you anything! Just allow me to live."
The sorcerer fought off a few more gnolls arriving to save their leader. He then let the wounded Paegin out from under the wreckage with the condition that he would call off his bandits.
Much too far to call off his men from slaying the fighter and paladin in time (who were both out of healing and on their last legs), Paegin instead used his last fireball to incinerate the remaining elite gnolls before they could bring further harm to the dragon disciple's allies.
When the party reconvened, Paegin again offered them his deal. However, since he could not be trusted, nor could the PCs be trusted to spare a creature they knew to be wholly evil; he conjured up a magical contract (which he typically used for getting souls on behalf of his infernal masters) which, when signed, prevented the PCs from ever again bringing harm upon Paegin. In return, Paegin would give them all that he had, tell them anything they wanted to know to the best of his (extensive) knowledge, and prevented him from betraying the party before his given intel could be put to good use. A breech of the contract would cause the offending party (even Paegin himself) to be stricken with a curse of the ages.
It was the only way such an evil abomination could trust a devout paladin not to kill him, much less live up to his word. The party sorcerer inspected the contract closely for traps (magical or scripted) and determined it to be genuine.
The three PCs (even the paladin) signed the eternally binding contract, thereby magically consigning themselves to its terms. Paegin lived up to his word: He gave the PCs all the treasure he had upon him (and upon the bodies of his deceased minions) and answered all their questions about the devils invading their town. Finally, the PCs had made some progress.
It was at that time that I turned to my paladin player and informed him that, because he signed an infernal contract and was associating himself with a being known to be evil, that he had fallen and would have to seek atonement.
"Not quite," my paladin player said, "it's not considered associating with evil if you arrest them and turn them into the proper authorities is it?"
"No, I suppose not," I responded.
"Then that leaves only the contract, which was signed only because it was the only way for my character to get the information he needed to protect his town, and as such, is considered an altruistic act, correct?"
"Yes," I told him, "that's right."
Paegin, believing himself to be smarter than he really was, began to walk away towards freedom and life--his end of the bargin having been concluded. However, the PCs (having realized the loop hole in the contract) stopped him, placed him in shackles, and took him with them to be turned into the proper authorities to be tried as a bandit (much to Paegin's protests).
I am so very proud of my players for (1) being creative enough to drop a boat on a superior enemy, and (2) for finding an "alternate ending" that not only got them what they needed, but kept the bad guy from having things his way and kept the paladin from falling from grace.
Anyways, I just wanted to share the sheer awesomeness of it.
Interesting outcome.
Paladins are more "playable" each day, Coups de Grace, Poisons, Caltrops and more important, they are allowed to use common sense instead of playing like they were borderline fanatics.
Now, being serious, I'm gonna try to remember that situation for future adventures.
Paladins ARE and should be borderline fanatics. (in some cases not so borderline:) But they can be borderline fanatics with savvy, intelligence, and good sense.Interesting outcome.
Paladins are more "playable" each day, Coups de Grace, Poisons, Caltrops and more important, they are allowed to use common sense instead of playing like they were borderline fanatics.
Now, being serious, I'm gonna try to remember that situation for future adventures.
I always thought that borderline, fanatic and intelligence were almost antonymous, specially after reading posts from some specific guys in the boards (not speaking about anyone here), well, the moar you know...
Watch some episodes of Caprica sometime. :)
I always thought that borderline, fanatic and intelligence were almost antonymous, specially after reading posts from some specific guys in the boards (not speaking about anyone here), well, the moar you know...
Funny, one of my friends has been trying to convince me to watch that show (and Battlestar Galactica) for months, but my program of pacific resistance and civil disobedience is working, for now.
I wathched FlashForward, I won't commit the same error twice :D
As far as Paladins being difficult to roleplay, I always tell my players "WWOWD"--What Would Obi-Wan Do? Alternatively, it could be WWTMCI7SD--Wath Would Toshiro Mifune's Character In Seven Samurai Do? ...But that's kind of long, heh.
As for your players, good job, although I could see some people complaining (not me though) that he still, however briefly "willingly associated with evil characters".
Toshiro Mifune's character was a raving lunatic and a drunkard. He was constantly yelling and berating people and barely had any honor at all, but his heart was in the right place. I'd say Takashi Shimura's character Kanbe Shimada was a much better representation of a paladin. As a matter of fact, between him and Captain America, I think those should be great role models for people looking for paladin inspiration.
Toshiro Mifune's character was a raving lunatic and a drunkard. He was constantly yelling and berating people and barely had any honor at all, but his heart was in the right place. I'd say Takashi Shimura's character Kanbe Shimada was a much better representation of a paladin. As a matter of fact, between him and Captain America, I think those should be great role models for people looking for paladin inspiration.As far as Paladins being difficult to roleplay, I always tell my players "WWOWD"--What Would Obi-Wan Do? Alternatively, it could be WWTMCI7SD--Wath Would Toshiro Mifune's Character In Seven Samurai Do? ...But that's kind of long, heh.
As for your players, good job, although I could see some people complaining (not me though) that he still, however briefly "willingly associated with evil characters".
You're absolutely right! I confused Toshiro Mifune's character for Takashi Simura's character...It's been a few years since I last saw the movie and i want the criterion collection of Kurosawa films but the damn thing is so expensive! *grumble grumble*
Yes, it's WWKD--what would Kanbe do?
Netflix has almost all of his films available. I've already watched Yojimbo, Seven Samurai, and Ran. I own Rashomon too.
Very cool. I'm always impressed by players who roleplay paladins well. The time or two I've tried, I've slipped into my default setting of greed and self-interest.
It's funny how any discussion about Paladins ends up as a discussion about comics, movies and TV shows.
The sage wouldn't have made a very good lawyer...I agree, that was a pretty big loophole, but I commend the DM for not writing the paladin out of the game entirely.
The sage was (1) overconfident, (2) in a panicked rush to save his life (literally flicking his fingers to will the contract to appear doesn't leave him much time to think about the wording), and (3) isn't too smart to begin with (with being a sorcerer rather than a wizard AND a gnoll what's more). His great knowledge and fame comes primarily from having a knowledge (planes) modifier of +22.
Considering all that, it makes sense that he might have overlooked something in the contract.
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How did they capture him without brining him harm?!? I'm sorry, but harm doesn't mean HP damage. If you tie or shackle somebody up in a manner they can't escape from, it WILL be painful and that is harm. If he is walking away and you tackle him or grapple him, that is harm. So I fail to see how the players didn't break the contract....
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How did they capture him without brining him harm?!? I'm sorry, but harm doesn't mean HP damage. If you tie or shackle somebody up in a manner they can't escape from, it WILL be painful and that is harm. If he is walking away and you tackle him or grapple him, that is harm. So I fail to see how the players didn't break the contract....
I’m sure that an infernal contract would have all sorts of clauses, sub-clauses, foot notes and appendices that would define (amongst other things) exactly what constitutes ‘harm’ under the terms of the contract. Suffice to say that if the GM rules that what the players did was legal under the terms of the contract, then it is legal (since the GM also came up with the contract and only he/she really knows how everything is defined).
I don’t know how it went down in game, but there are a number of spells that could have constrained the diabolist without causing ‘harm’. Shackling someone with manacles doesn’t cause someone ‘harm’ (unless they try to strain against them or get out of them). It could be interpreted that grabbing and restraining someone does not ‘harm’ them – they cause themselves harm in the act of trying to escape the restraint. Yes, this is a borderline interpretation, but I expect an infernal contract to contain all sorts of loopholes and dubious definitions such as this.
In the end the players demonstrated intelligence and ingenuity to resolve a complicated situation, a good GM should (and in this case did) reward them for that.
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Shackling someone with manacles doesn’t cause someone ‘harm’ (unless they try to strain against them or get out of them).
Umm...as somebody who has seen actualy medieval shackles...yes they DO cause harm if they are put on tight enough to prevent escape. They cause bruising and chaffing at the very least. They can cause necrosis at the worst. Hell even modern handcuff hurt when they put placed on tight enough to prevent escape. Ask anyone who's ever been arrested, those handcuffs hurt, even if your not struggling.
Shackling someone with manacles doesn’t cause someone ‘harm’ (unless they try to strain against them or get out of them).Umm...as somebody who has seen actualy medieval shackles...yes they DO cause harm if they are put on tight enough to prevent escape. They cause bruising and chaffing at the very least. They can cause necrosis at the worst. Hell even modern handcuff hurt when they put placed on tight enough to prevent escape. Ask anyone who's ever been arrested, those handcuffs hurt, even if your not struggling.
Sure if you want you can call it "harm", but I think in this case the DM did the right thing and reward the players ideas.
The DM should play with the player not against them. If the DM plays against the player each round is over in no more then 10 min, because the BBEG used "miracle" to know about the future (Wthe PCs will defeat him), so he sent all his minions to the players birthplaces and kill them... adventure over...I would advise anyone who don't understand this to read the first chapters of the GMG, especially "Play to the PC's strength" and "Don't stymie the PCs" ;)
@TC:
great story, great DMing, thats fun :)
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You know I always sort of viewed Sanjuro from Yojimbo as the ultimate NG Paladin. He sees a town tearing its self apart and does all he can to make the crime lords destroy themselves while protecting the townspeople. It was underhanded at times, more manipulation than being a valiant champion but he just got evil to do what it does best, consume its self. I didn't even think it was chaotic because he was doing it to bring about order.
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Umm...as somebody who has seen actualy medieval shackles...yes they DO cause harm if they are put on tight enough to prevent escape. They cause bruising and chaffing at the very least. They can cause necrosis at the worst. Hell even modern handcuff hurt when they put placed on tight enough to prevent escape. Ask anyone who's ever been arrested, those handcuffs hurt, even if your not struggling.
Your superior knowledge of handcuffs and restraints, along with your seemingly rather unnecessary and against the spirit of the thread assertion that the OP made a bad call is duly noted.
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You know I always sort of viewed Sanjuro from Yojimbo as the ultimate NG Paladin. He sees a town tearing its self apart and does all he can to make the crime lords destroy themselves while protecting the townspeople. It was underhanded at times, more manipulation than being a valiant champion but he just got evil to do what it does best, consume its self. I didn't even think it was chaotic because he was doing it to bring about order.
He's a great character but I would quibble a little, I don't think he's trying to create order so much as peace and freedom.
That's in the purview of CG although I too would probably go for NG.RavingDork: Great story.
ColdNapalm:
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Shackling someone with manacles doesn’t cause someone ‘harm’ (unless they try to strain against them or get out of them).Umm...as somebody who has seen actualy medieval shackles...yes they DO cause harm if they are put on tight enough to prevent escape. They cause bruising and chaffing at the very least. They can cause necrosis at the worst. Hell even modern handcuff hurt when they put placed on tight enough to prevent escape. Ask anyone who's ever been arrested, those handcuffs hurt, even if your not struggling.
By those definitions, 99% of Cold Napalm's posts cause harm.
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By those definitions, 99% of Cold Napalm's posts cause harm.Shackling someone with manacles doesn’t cause someone ‘harm’ (unless they try to strain against them or get out of them).Umm...as somebody who has seen actualy medieval shackles...yes they DO cause harm if they are put on tight enough to prevent escape. They cause bruising and chaffing at the very least. They can cause necrosis at the worst. Hell even modern handcuff hurt when they put placed on tight enough to prevent escape. Ask anyone who's ever been arrested, those handcuffs hurt, even if your not struggling.
Hey, your post just caused me harm!
revenge is sweet.
By those definitions, 99% of Cold Napalm's posts cause harm.Shackling someone with manacles doesn’t cause someone ‘harm’ (unless they try to strain against them or get out of them).Umm...as somebody who has seen actualy medieval shackles...yes they DO cause harm if they are put on tight enough to prevent escape. They cause bruising and chaffing at the very least. They can cause necrosis at the worst. Hell even modern handcuff hurt when they put placed on tight enough to prevent escape. Ask anyone who's ever been arrested, those handcuffs hurt, even if your not struggling.
*claps hands*
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He's a great character but I would quibble a little, I don't think he's trying to create order so much as peace and freedom.
That's in the purview of CG although I too would probably go for NG.
Fair enough, at that point it starts getting into semantics and a player can reason his actions either way.
And on the handcuff debate, if the players just stabbed him in the back of the head and he died without feeling pain, by the going argument, that wouldn't be harming because he didn't feel anything. That of course is a foolish assumption.
Handcuffs would be an annoyance at best unless they're actually slicing up his wrists.
Nobody said Dredd? All of this Japanese silliness and you didn't say
THE LAW?:P
All I know about Dredd I learned from the Stallone movie, but I feel that is enough to warrant the statement I am about to make.
Dredd is not a paladin. He is a Hellknight.
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Umm...as somebody who has seen actualy medieval shackles...yes they DO cause harm if they are put on tight enough to prevent escape. They cause bruising and chaffing at the very least. They can cause necrosis at the worst. Hell even modern handcuff hurt when they put placed on tight enough to prevent escape. Ask anyone who's ever been arrested, those handcuffs hurt, even if your not struggling.Your superior knowledge of handcuffs and restraints, along with your seemingly rather unnecessary and against the spirit of the thread assertion that the OP made a bad call is duly noted.
I didn't say it was a bad call. It let the paladin player continue to have fun, which makes it a perfectly fine DM call. It's not a "RAW" call however. There is a difference.
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By those definitions, 99% of Cold Napalm's posts cause harm.Shackling someone with manacles doesn’t cause someone ‘harm’ (unless they try to strain against them or get out of them).Umm...as somebody who has seen actualy medieval shackles...yes they DO cause harm if they are put on tight enough to prevent escape. They cause bruising and chaffing at the very least. They can cause necrosis at the worst. Hell even modern handcuff hurt when they put placed on tight enough to prevent escape. Ask anyone who's ever been arrested, those handcuffs hurt, even if your not struggling.
Umm no...and yes. I am causing you no physical harm. I could be causing you metal harm...but then again, since you have the option to not read what I say, it's self inflicted harm.
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Well, if you're whining about being harmed you aren't metal enough. :)
Umm no...and yes. I am causing you no physical harm. I could be causing you metal harm...but then again, since you have the option to not read what I say, it's self inflicted harm.
Opps :P . Course if you used mental, it's still funny.
Shackling someone with manacles doesn’t cause someone ‘harm’ (unless they try to strain against them or get out of them).Umm...as somebody who has seen actualy medieval shackles...yes they DO cause harm if they are put on tight enough to prevent escape. They cause bruising and chaffing at the very least. They can cause necrosis at the worst. Hell even modern handcuff hurt when they put placed on tight enough to prevent escape. Ask anyone who's ever been arrested, those handcuffs hurt, even if your not struggling.
Yes, moden handcuffs hurt. I wonder why they allowed to get away with hurting like that.
Handcuffs would be an annoyance at best unless they're actually slicing up his wrists.Which shackles did in the middle ages. Enough so that they caused necrosis from festering wounds.
Ah, but "RAW" manacles do not inflict any other game statistical penalty other than being bound / entangled - no damage (ability or hit point, not even fatigued, sickened or the like), no harm.
Necrosis from the festering wounds seems more likely to derive from the generally filthy condition of Joe Average combined with the abrasions opening the skin to infection.
Funny discussion on restraints though.
More importantly, props go to all of the players and to Ravingdork for GM'ing it wonderfully.
Yes, modern handcuffs hurt. I wonder why they allowed to get away with hurting like that.Shackling someone with manacles doesn’t cause someone ‘harm’ (unless they try to strain against them or get out of them).Umm...as somebody who has seen actually medieval shackles...yes they DO cause harm if they are put on tight enough to prevent escape. They cause bruising and chaffing at the very least. They can cause necrosis at the worst. Hell even modern handcuff hurt when they put placed on tight enough to prevent escape. Ask anyone who's ever been arrested, those handcuffs hurt, even if your not struggling.
Pain = deterrence.
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How did they capture him without brining him harm?!? I'm sorry, but harm doesn't mean HP damage. If you tie or shackle somebody up in a manner they can't escape from, it WILL be painful and that is harm. If he is walking away and you tackle him or grapple him, that is harm. So I fail to see how the players didn't break the contract....
However, if he surrenders (knowin that he is low on spells and without his minions) then tackling wouldn't be necessary would it.
It would seem you and I disagree on what "harm" is, which is fine. In the end, the only in-game justification I need for having the players outsmart Paegin is that Paegin has a 12 intelligence whereas ALL of the PCs have a 14. They also ALL have a higher wisdom as well, which means they are more likely to find a contract loophole than Paegin is to realize he's made one.
As for out-of-game justification, not screwing over the players with something as lame as chafing bindings allowed my players to have fun, to feel heroic, intelligent, and powerful (which their characters are), and even made lots of sense within the context of the story.
In the end that should be all that matters. After all Sam and Frodo could have flown the ring to Mordor on giant eagles, but then we, the readers, wouldn't have enjoyed such a great story.
There will always be those who dissent and say things like "why didn't they do [this]" or "obviously that couldn't have worked [because]." In the end, my only concern is that the story make sense and that everyone of my players (and myself) are having fun.
I didn't say it was a bad call. It let the paladin player continue to have fun, which makes it a perfectly fine DM call. It's not a "RAW" call however. There is a difference.Umm...as somebody who has seen actualy medieval shackles...yes they DO cause harm if they are put on tight enough to prevent escape. They cause bruising and chaffing at the very least. They can cause necrosis at the worst. Hell even modern handcuff hurt when they put placed on tight enough to prevent escape. Ask anyone who's ever been arrested, those handcuffs hurt, even if your not struggling.Your superior knowledge of handcuffs and restraints, along with your seemingly rather unnecessary and against the spirit of the thread assertion that the OP made a bad call is duly noted.
How does RAW factor into this in any way, shape, or form? Except for the battle itself, it's all simply story discussion between the GM and players.