Druid / Sorcerer and being a bird


Rules Questions


Okay, so I just picked up the Pathfinder books, most of them anyway, and I love, love, love some of the changes that they made. But my problem is that didn't fix wildshape

So here's a problem I had in 3.5

A buddy made a druid and leveled till he got Diminutive wildshape. He had natural spell at this point. He would then proceed to change into a bird (robin usually) and then hide someplace (+12 size bonus, he had stealthy, 18 dex, so a bonus of +18). Outdoors he would hid in a tree. Now, once he started taking levels in Sorcerer, he would sit up in the tree and pelt enemies with spells.

We never really figured out how to deal with it. He argued that unless the enemy was a spellcaster, they wouldn't know where the spells were coming from. And even then, with all the cover concealment, it made it nigh impossible to see him.

Any thoughts on how Pathfinder fixes this or just fixes in general?


First, multiclassing as a spell caster is not really the best thing to do. You will get a stringer character by going straight druid or sorcerer in PF than you will by multiclassing the two.

Second, with druids in PF, your physical stats matter. This means you have to choose between being a caster or being a wildshaper to some degree. A druid with a strength of 8 who turns into a dimunitive animal now has a strength of 4. Carrying more than 40 pounds would be a staggering load. So a caster druid can't just dump their physical stats then shift into animal for to make up for it anymore.

Third, trying to stay stealthed while making attacks is a -20 penalty(look up the rules for sniping). That makes it really hard to stay hidden while making attacks.


Casting any spell in wild shape if you have the natural spell feat is totally legal. Arguing that enemies cannot tell where spells are coming from is down to the DM.
Casting an attack spell loses you stealth meaning once the spell is cast he is no longer hidden, concealed maybe, but no-one needs a perception check to spot him anymore.
Whether spells can be traced back to their origin is down to DM decision, but rays, cones, magic missiles and so on have to originate somewhere so... I wouldn't let them get away with free stealth.
If he does have cover/concealment nothing stops him use his move action each turn to hide, but the enemies will still know he's in the tree, just not exactly where.


I just ban natural spell. You would not believe the difference that one thing can make.

Liberty's Edge

Note that natural spell assumes that you are still making noise and doing motions, just in terms that are possible in your new form. Because of this it is still only DC0* to hear you tweeting oddly and notice you "dancing."
Since DC0 is not very stealthy you can't really do this *at all* unless you silence the spell (which, since you can't wield a rod, would require you to have the feat and use higher level slots).
On top of this any offensive spell will require that you do a "sniping" stealth check unless it is a "Targets:" spell. This requires that you are at least 10 feet from the opponent to even get a check, and -20 even if you do.

This means that he should be casting and giving them a DC0 to hear the noise and pinpoint your location. If you silent the spell to give yourself a *shot* at pulling this off, you still have a -2 total stealth bonus to successfully stay hidden post-attack. Anyone who gets hit by a spell that comes from a bird (and has wisdom/int greater than a pancake) will realize it's a spellcaster.

*This is an assumption as the spellcasting section states you must speak the spell components in "a strong voice" and cannot whisper it. DC0 is the DC for hearing (and understanding) a conversation held at normal volume. It's entirely acceptable to lower this DC to -5 since you don't need to pick out the details, though a sense motive check (~DC20?) might be in order for non-spellcasters and non-nature-people (~DC15 know(nature)?)to realize its an abnormal chirping pattern. Spellcasters should know automatically.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

+1 to what Stabbity Doom said.

On top of which, he can probably be swallowed whole by a small or larger sized snake. I'm not saying you should fill your trees with hungry snakes.

But it might be funny to happen once. Remember to describe digestive juices.


Detect magic: he shows up

Stealth: you CANNOT use this skill, at all, while casting spells, even if you are going Peep peep peep.

Knowledge nature or a DC 5 wisdom check: that Robbin really should have flown off after the 1st fireball, birds tend not to stick around for earth shattering kabooms.


DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

+1 to what Stabbity Doom said.

On top of which, he can probably be swallowed whole by a small or larger sized snake. I'm not saying you should fill your trees with hungry snakes.

But it might be funny to happen once. Remember to describe digestive juices.

Or attacked by larger birds. Birds that small have a LOT of natural enemies which may not instantly know the druid is a druid and not lunch.


I did the whole attacking him with other birds/animals...the problem was he was like a 14th-15th level character, and birds only do 1D4 damage...he would just take the damage and keep casting spells. And I tried grappling...he would just shift to human form (breaking the grapple), fall out of the tree, take like 2D6 falling damage (whoop de do dah) and then shift back to being a bird. Although Stabbity brought up a good point with the stealth...sounds like this combo doesn't work as well.

Thanks guys


Why exactly is this a problem? He's an 8th level druid, 7th/8th level sorcerer, so he's only throwing around 3rd-4th level spells--nothing terribly dangerous, really, compared to what a straight 15th level druid or sorcerer can come up with. Sure, lower-level enemies are probably toast, but many CR 14ish creatures won't be bothered by many of those low-level spells--especially since he's probably trying to balance good Wis AND Cha scores, so his overall spell DCs are probably kind of low.

What exactly is the problem you're having with this situation? Is he totally dominating the encounters, or is it just tricky to challenge him directly?

If it's just a matter of nothing being able to locate him and threaten him directly, try throwing a 15th level druid or wizard at him and see how quickly he gets found out--and even without pinpointing him, he can still get caught in radius of a flame strike or somesuch if they can just get a good idea of where he is. Or heck, rangers, animal companions and familiars have a number of tracking abilities at their disposal (tracking, scent, etc), so see how well he can hide from them (assuming, of course, that they know what to look for in the first place; I wouldn't just say "Ah ha, they found you!" unless they knew to look for a spellcasting bird, either by seeing him transform or using detect magic or something to figure out what was up).


Also, the name of the game may not be dungeons and dragons, but the druid should find that trick a fair bit less useful in caves. SOME of the critters down there must have read the evil overlord list

#42 When I capture the hero, I will make sure I also get his dog, monkey, ferret, or whatever sickeningly cute little animal capable of untying ropes and filching keys happens to follow him around.


+ with a potentially low caster level how would he fare against creatures with moderate-high SR's?

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