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Yes, there is a section about fighting in water in the core rulebook, I am just uncertain of the exact page number, but it falls under the GMing section that also details other enviromental hazards like storms, deserts, and the like. It should also give you some more ideas on how to challenge your group's combat with things like low hanging stalagmites and sheer rises. Also, an antimagic field might be handy in taking down some buffs and bonuses from magic items and weapons if you find it is getting too bad but don't want to start a new game.
I'm curious.. why go to such lengths against him?From the look of it he's an underoptimized PC.
Going down this road is heading towards confrontational DMing and it's not a good trip.
-James
Wow, James your games must be tough- underoptimized. I must not be doing this right :)
But you have a great point. The GM has unlimited resources, and controls everything in the universe, except the PC's. So there is no need to have any special rules to "beat" this "problem" PC.
Look, Bazzdar, you have to really ask yourself what's the problem. Do you think he cheated? Is he so much more powerful than the other PCs, that everyone else is just standing around while he lays waste to the universe? Or is that it's not fun for you? Are the other players enjoying themselves?
I have seen PC's with terrible, awful, god-like power. I have seen PCs with stats/powers/abilities way above the ones given for NPCs in supplements.
And it never sweats me. The PCs are supposed to win. With all our god-like power every good GM should be hoping they loose every important fight and that PC's only die often enough to keep it real, and give the player the sense that through their own creativity, ingenuity, and luck they accomplished their goals and it wasn't handed to them.
So what's the problem?
I'm curious.. why go to such lengths against him?From the look of it he's an underoptimized PC.
Going down this road is heading towards confrontational DMing and it's not a good trip.
-James
Wow, James your games must be tough- underoptimized. I must not be doing this right :)
But you have a great point. The GM has unlimited resources, and controls everything in the universe, except the PC's. So there is no need to have any special rules to "beat" this "problem" PC.
Look, Bazzdar, you have to really ask yourself what's the problem. Do you think he cheated? Is he so much more powerful than the other PCs, that everyone else is just standing around while he lays waste to the universe? Or is that it's not fun for you? Are the other players enjoying themselves?
I have seen PC's with terrible, awful, god-like power. I have seen PCs with stats/powers/abilities way above the ones given for NPCs in supplements.
And it never sweats me. The PCs are supposed to win. With all our god-like power every good GM should be hoping they loose every important fight and that PC's only die often enough to keep it real, and give the player the sense that through their own creativity, ingenuity, and luck they accomplished their goals and it wasn't handed to them.
So what's the problem?
I can't speak for him, but I can easily imagine him trying to make the game interesting for all characters. When one character is cleaning up everything, suddenly everyone else is bored.
I can't speak for him, but I can easily imagine him trying to make the game interesting for all characters. When one character is cleaning up everything, suddenly everyone else is bored.
Well if the problem is my other players are texting and talking about sports during the big fight, because this guy kills everything - that is one thing.
But if the problem is- he chased off my black dragon in 1 round, and he killed my paladin in one round. And I was trying to present a good challenge and failed. Well, that's another problem entirely.
Some other character is hasting this guy in almost every important fight. That player made the decision that instead of doing something to directly effect the enemy, he is buffing his party members.
Is that guy sitting there thinking, "Damn, there he goes killing everything again, why do I even bother showing up?" or does he think, "We kick ass, when I buff up our Arcane Archer, he tears s**t up."
Depending on what the other party members are doing, that spell actually might do more damage than the AA would by himself. The DPR on extra attacks is amazing!
The real problem isn't- this AA can do 200 points of damage, in a single round. So I'd like to know what the real problem is, so I can give him good advice, because I've been in that situation before and it sucks.
I can't speak for him, but I can easily imagine him trying to make the game interesting for all characters. When one character is cleaning up everything, suddenly everyone else is bored.Well if the problem is my other players are texting and talking about sports during the big fight, because this guy kills everything - that is one thing.
But if the problem is- he chased off my black dragon in 1 round, and he killed my paladin in one round. And I was trying to present a good challenge and failed. Well, that's another problem entirely.
Some other character is hasting this guy in almost every important fight. That player made the decision that instead of doing something to directly effect the enemy, he is buffing his party members.
Is that guy sitting there thinking, "Damn, there he goes killing everything again, why do I even bother showing up?" or does he think, "We kick ass, when I buff up our Arcane Archer, he tears s**t up."
Depending on what the other party members are doing, that spell actually might do more damage than the AA would by himself. The DPR on extra attacks is amazing!
The real problem isn't- this AA can do 200 points of damage, in a single round. So I'd like to know what the real problem is, so I can give him good advice, because I've been in that situation before and it sucks.
The real problem is epic CR should last more than 2-3 rounds with party taking damage < 1/10 total hits or am I wrong? And if I am right then the problem must be me because I went over his sheet and there was no discrepency with the rules.
The real problem is epic CR should last more than 2-3 rounds with party taking damage < 1/10 total hits or am I wrong? And if I am right then the problem must be me because I went over his sheet and there was no discrepency with the rules.
Its not just about CR. Its about the circumstances of the encounter (favorable terrain, good tactics, whether the party has a chance to buff etc). Its also about the number of opponents and the action economy (single enemy encounters are a recipe for disaster).
Spread the enemies out and have 4 or 5 and this archer doesnt obliderate the encounter in a single round. Dont give the party time to buff or make sure the enemies have time to buff (and the means to do it).
The problem is managable but you have to adapt.
Ranger focus is twice per day. How many enemies is he fighting in a day?
According to the table, a CR 11 monster has 145 hp and AC 25.
With +14/+14/+9 and 23 damage per arrow doubled on the first arrow, that's 43 damage per round average -- hardly a game-changer, considering that for a really difficult fight you should have three of these guys out.
Ranger focus makes a big difference. With +18/+18/+13 and 27 damage per arrow doubled on the first arrow, that's a little over 70 damage per round average. Haste and gravity bow will juice these numbers higher.
But this guy should not be consistently one-shotting BBEG's. His to-hit is poor for his level; make sure he's honestly hitting and not fudging it.
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ok he took ranger instead of fighter but he used a ranger template from the APG which let him give up some stuff for the ability to make any single target his hunter focus 3/day. This gives him a +4 to hit that target. He definately has manyshot and rapid shot. He gets hasted and bull str which brings him to a 20 str which is the str of the composite long bow (but he says the buffs are not what make him kick ass). he uses gravity bow a lot. His weapon is +3 Icy burst and he adds flaming to that via his AA class. He crits on 19-20.
He also has boots of levitation and uses a wizard teleport 5ft + 5ft step trick to move out of full attack range and still get his full attacks. I should mention there is also a 2h PA barb and a duel wield dps fighter wich do significant damage. They seem fine because they have to engage the enemies befor they start dealing damage. The main annoyance with the archer is he gets his full attacks every single round at hundereds of feet away. He can shoot through cover with feats and abilities. He can shoot flying enemies. He can basically kill everyone in the world. On top of that he tells me he has even another trick that he hasn't shown yet.
He killed my fire giant in the first round. He almost killed (forced retreat) my adult black dragon in one round. He killed a lvl 9 paly in one round (evil campaign). What should I do to balance this out. The big bosses get one round (hopefully) to do somthing before they splat. I could negate him completely (wind walls, paralyze, etc.) but that would get old (sucks to do nothing all fight).
tnx
One word.... Wall of force... ok three words. Or better yet. If he wants to use non core books... use the Chelliax book on him
Little 4th level spell called Emergency Force Barrier.
Get a wizard with that spell... and watch all of his attacks fail utterly. If the wizard can cast it three or four times he can absolutely shut the AA down while letting loose with fireballs and better yet...a blindness/deafness or two.
If you want to mess him up core... go with mirror image...and use it alot. Or just drop Vrocks on them (Yes...even in an evil campaign Vrocks are about as chaotic and violent as they get...and get Mirror Image AT WILL.
Or better yet... invisibility or greater invisibility. A munchkin is not likely to prepare anything but damage... so a single greater invis will leave him sputtering at what to shoot at.
Mirror image is hell on arcane archers... even with lots of attacks.
Windwall does well against them too. Ring of feather falling + boots of levitation = wizard who can jump and shoot over his arcane archer screwing wall of wind...
The real problem is epic CR should last more than 2-3 rounds with party taking damage < 1/10 total hits or am I wrong? And if I am right then the problem must be me because I went over his sheet and there was no discrepency with the rules.
ok i can chime in on this one. i made the same mistake with my party. CR depends on a number of factors, 15 point buy, 4 players, and AVG magical gear. if you stray from one factor or more you have to take that into account. from the looks of it your players are well over AVG magical gear so +1 should be added to CR's so an epic encounter would be about 4 over APL not 3.
im my campaign my players have high stats (roled high and have avg 25 buy stats), i have 5 players, and they have over avg magical gear. i've found that an epic encounter for my party is 5-6 CR over APL, with 6 pushing it.
james jaccobs gave some good advice that works out well for me. if your players have over 15 point buy stats give all your monsters the advanced template=+4 to all stats. this works really good for high player stats. after that then adjust 1-2 CR for party size and high magical gear. i add the advanced template with no +1 CR as it just evens it out with the players. players shouldn't get extra XP for putting the monsters on par with there stats.. hope that helps.
Your archer is capable of some truly epic damage, this is true. But only in an optimal situation, really. Against trolls or other Big-Dumb-Critters (BDCs) across an open prairie, yeah you're right, he's a fearsome foe who will cut through them like a scythe through wheat. But against a truly matched CR-appropriate foe, not so much. You mentioned a dragon before... a CR 13 Dragon should have an armor class of roughly 28 or better, not including bonuses from spells like mage armor and shield. Your OP archer wouldn't be able to hit reliably, let alone crit. And after the archer's salvo, on an open plain the dragon's retaliatory strafing breath weapon will ruin said archer's day. True, if the dragon stood there and allowed your archer to pepper him with arrows from a goodly distance across an open field, he'd likely be killed or disabled in short order. But as a DM, your best resource is your mind... remember that all creatures have an Int and Wis score, and should respond to attacks accordingly based on their wit and resources. A high Int creature like a dragon would likely be flying high when crossing open territory, and his superior senses allow him a good chance to detect foes before they get the drop on him. He'd also likely go full defensive for an additional +4 AC until he is within range to strike back. Use his wits, spells and other resources accordingly, especially the terrain, and you'll find you have all the tools you need to make a challenging encounter for your players.
It's pretty unusual in the adventures I've played or run that characters spend a lot of time in wide open places where they get a lot of space between them and their foes, or room for unrestricted long range full attacks. It's far more common to have cover (trees, walls, ruins, etc.) or concealment, which negate or hinder long range attacks. Underground, your elf archer is pretty screwed most of the time... his Low-light vision allows him to get double the radius out of torches n' sunrods, but remember a foe in shadowy illumination has concealment and one in darkness is pretty much immune to ranged attacks, for all practical purposes. A simple thing like a corner, or smaller rooms, put an archer at a distinct disadvantage. In larger spaces, there are mundane obstacles like tree branches and bushes to offer cover or concealment, wind conditions, or even smoke or fog. Magically, there are even more possibilities: Shield, Protection from Arrows, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Tiny Hut, Fog Cloud, Stinking Cloud (pretty much any of the Cloud spells here), various Walls spells, various Illusions, and others far too numerous to count.
Another point: I notice that your OP Archer has Jungle as his favored terrain, which probably means this is a campaign in a jungle setting. How often does someone in a jungle get a big open field to shoot across? By its definition, a jungle is going to be thick with concealing terrain and cover. I would start applying cover and concealment mods to 90% of your encounters, just on general principle.
A skilled archer can be a fearsome opponent, but they are highly circumstantial. If nothing else, they are relying on ammunition... that Efficient Quiver may hold a 120 arrows, but at a rate of fire of 5 to 7 arrows per round, he's gonna run out of arrows much sooner than you think. He'll likely need to carry another few hundred arrows in a Bag of Holding or something.
Anyway, my point is that your OP Archer as you put it is tough in an optimal situation; wide open area against low AC foes that can't strike back. But at his level he's not going to be in many of those optimal situations all that often. He may be able to dish it out at a distance but if you are challenging your players appropriately, he's not really overpowered... even if his equipment is equal to a 15th level characters expected amount.
The real problem is epic CR should last more than 2-3 rounds with party taking damage < 1/10 total hits or am I wrong? And if I am right then the problem must be me because I went over his sheet and there was no discrepency with the rules.
Really I think a lot of the problem is the buffing. You need to control how the encounter unfolds.
Ambush them, make them fight in fog/darkness/thick woods, have an enemy teleport in their midst while they're having breakfast. You said you don't want to use Wind Wall to shut him down. Why not? It's cheesy if every enemy does it, but once will just highlight the importance of other characters.
There are a ton of ways to challenge your party, and the AA in specific. Other posters having some great suggestions on this thread.
I could be wrong, but I think part of the problem is that you are kind of hung up on how things should be.
According to the core rules an epic fight is a APL+3 CR.
That's really just a suggestion. And obviously it's not working. He's built on way more than a 15 point buy and has more than the WBL suggests for gear. So don't worry about throwing harder encounters at them or shutting him down in a few fights. You said they aren't even loosing 20% HP, they'll be fine. Crank it up a notch and have fun!