Hey, i've just ordered the first two books from this AP and i was wondering if there's been any NPCs using classes from the APG yet, or if there are plans for the classes to be used in later issues?
Thanks!
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Hey, i've just ordered the first two books from this AP and i was wondering if there's been any NPCs using classes from the APG yet, or if there are plans for the classes to be used in later issues?
Thanks!
In the second book there is a Savage Barbarian, too. I also added this subclass to the Barbarian leader in the first book.
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Not to play Devil's Advocate or commit thread necro, but, with the witch (and I suppose the savage barbarian also) is everything needed for her given, keeping to the "Core and Bestiary" are the only required books, or is the APG now also considered part of the core rules, and therefore a requirement for play?
Not to play Devil's Advocate or commit thread necro, but, with the witch (and I suppose the savage barbarian also) is everything needed for her given, keeping to the "Core and Bestiary" are the only required books, or is the APG now also considered part of the core rules, and therefore a requirement for play?
I just checked my copies, and they've added everything you need to run the NPC's in the adventures (i.e. full stat blocks with powers described). I've seen elsewhere where it has been stated that they still plan to stick with the build adventures with the core assumption of Core and Bestiary and full stat blocks for anything else.
That said, they've recently added the APG and GMG to the PRD site, so if they do miss something in a book, the information to run is still available for free here on their site to run the material.
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Not to play Devil's Advocate or commit thread necro, but, with the witch (and I suppose the savage barbarian also) is everything needed for her given, keeping to the "Core and Bestiary" are the only required books, or is the APG now also considered part of the core rules, and therefore a requirement for play?I just checked my copies, and they've added everything you need to run the NPC's in the adventures (i.e. full stat blocks with powers described). I've seen elsewhere where it has been stated that they still plan to stick with the build adventures with the core assumption of Core and Bestiary and full stat blocks for anything else.
That said, they've recently added the APG and GMG to the PRD site, so if they do miss something in a book, the information to run is still available for free here on their site to run the material.
Thanks for the update. I was checking around with some people after I posted and was told that the witch was not given full stats, or descriptions of her hexes, and that it's supposedly written somewhere in the adventure that you may have to level her up to make her an appropriate challenge if your party gets too high in level by the time you're supposed to face her. If that were so, then the APG would be a requirement, prd or not. But having been running Kingmaker for various groups since its release, this seemed very, very far off base for the people at Paizo. I felt that waiting for some further information would be better than double posting what could possibly be false assumptions and accusations based on limited and non-confirmed information.
If that makes any sense...
Creative Director
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The question I'm the most curious is that, given that APG and the other non-core books are all open content and will be on our own PRD as well as on numerous fan sites...
...how would folks feel if we did put things from the APG and Bestiary 2 and other rulebooks we've published into our adventures without reprinting all the relevant rules? The thing is that, with space at a premium, we're far LESS likely to use material from APG and other books if the perception is that we need to reprint everything.
With Carrion Crown, we'll be presenting short stat blocks for the Bestiary 2 monsters we use, and while we'll print full stat blocks for non-core base classes (because we ALWAYS do full stat blocks for classed NPCs, core or not), we're not going to give full reprints for feats, spells, magic items, and the like that show up in an adventure.
I'm eager to see how folks respond to that. If the rules weren't open content, we'd never do this, but with them being open content and effectively free to access on the internet... does that make it okay to not do full reprints of things like bunyips and witch hexes and sylph inquisitors?
And while it's great to get feedback from folks before the fact... not everyone who reads, say, Carrion Crown will see this (or similar) posts... so it'll probably be until we get into that AP's publication before we start hearing all the feedback. Here's hoping folks are mostly cool with the tradeoff of less reprinted material and more non-core support in adventures!
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I am in favor of it. Though you might want to put a little side bar note or something in each adventure that has such things. That directs people to the correct site so they can find said information. If you do that I don't think would have a grip. I mean all the information they would need would be pointed out to them. Plus it saves room for more adventure stuff.
Here is my minor concern. If the assumption is that everyone has access to the core books then there shouldn't be a problem. However, even if it seems unlikely not everyone has internet access. So with that being said, if the APG and other stats are only accessible on the internet and those people do not have internet access then are they being penalized for not having internet access?
I have both internet access and all of the core and non-core books, so it is basically a non-issue for me. It may be a very small minority that doesn't have all of the books nor internet access.
If you decide that not repeating stat blocks allows more new information in AP's and scenarios go for it. As I said I am only one small voice in vast sea of Paizo fans.
Just my 2 cp.
The question I'm the most curious is that, given that APG and the other non-core books are all open content and will be on our own PRD as well as on numerous fan sites...
...how would folks feel if we did put things from the APG and Bestiary 2 and other rulebooks we've published into our adventures without reprinting all the relevant rules? The thing is that, with space at a premium, we're far LESS likely to use material from APG and other books if the perception is that we need to reprint everything.
With Carrion Crown, we'll be presenting short stat blocks for the Bestiary 2 monsters we use, and while we'll print full stat blocks for non-core base classes (because we ALWAYS do full stat blocks for classed NPCs, core or not), we're not going to give full reprints for feats, spells, magic items, and the like that show up in an adventure.
I'm eager to see how folks respond to that. If the rules weren't open content, we'd never do this, but with them being open content and effectively free to access on the internet... does that make it okay to not do full reprints of things like bunyips and witch hexes and sylph inquisitors?
And while it's great to get feedback from folks before the fact... not everyone who reads, say, Carrion Crown will see this (or similar) posts... so it'll probably be until we get into that AP's publication before we start hearing all the feedback. Here's hoping folks are mostly cool with the tradeoff of less reprinted material and more non-core support in adventures!
I'm not a fan, and this is coming from someone likely to have most Pathfinder sources, so let me elaborate.
1. I think it sets the bar higher for new people to the system. Even if they can access everything, getting up to speed on what is and isn't assumed to be available when you run the campaign can be frustrating, and even if you can get access, I think you run the risk of creating a bit of a resentment factor for those that are late joiners.
2. Not everyone that gets RPG material has full access to computers. I know its hard to grasp in this day and age, but its true. Not everyone that has full access to computers has the desire to look at a computer that often in relation to gaming (there are tons of people that love gaming that just don't look for websites to supplement their gaming, go to message boards etc). Finally, there are some people that absolutely resent being told they must use a computer in their gaming, even if they would be willing to do so voluntarily.
3. Personally, and I really respect Paizo and I'm glad I have the chance to weigh in on things like this, I don't like moving the line in the sand. For years, even going back to Dungeon days, the Core assumption has been core, and its been stated many times. You only need to have the basics. Not the basics and the internet, or the basics plus stuff a lot of die hard fans really love. Its a slippery slope. It may not be intentional, but what is the next thing that might save space or time that you can assume that everyone can find out for themselves?
4. One of the things that really bothered me towards the end of 3.5 was the inclusion of stat blocks in Expedition to Undermountain that used Book of Nine Swords rules without explaining the rules used in the stat block. I had the book, but the inclusion without any details felt like WOTC was pushing me to include every subsystem that came along, in a way that presents a stat block that can be used on its own, without outside reference does not. Even if the material is free online, if things are not explained in the text, you have to invest time tracking down what these things in the statblock are, how they work, how a class or a spell or whatever would work . . . and if you aren't a fan, you've just be asked to make a rather hefty investment.
Not wanting to be a jerk, I'm just naturally a bit worried about the next few steps down the line, not just the very next step. I remember being a bit ticked that I had to figure out my own skeleton stat blocks in Bastards of Erebus. Not because it was that hard, but I kind of expected something not out of the box to be stated up. Is the next border to cross telling people to apply X to Y creature as well as Z simple template? Is it not giving out treasure for every encounter, but pointing out that you should make up your own?
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I guess Devil's Advocate + can of worms...:-/
The question I'm the most curious is that, given that APG and the other non-core books are all open content and will be on our own PRD as well as on numerous fan sites...
...how would folks feel if we did put things from the APG and Bestiary 2 and other rulebooks we've published into our adventures without reprinting all the relevant rules? The thing is that, with space at a premium, we're far LESS likely to use material from APG and other books if the perception is that we need to reprint everything.
With Carrion Crown, we'll be presenting short stat blocks for the Bestiary 2 monsters we use, and while we'll print full stat blocks for non-core base classes (because we ALWAYS do full stat blocks for classed NPCs, core or not), we're not going to give full reprints for feats, spells, magic items, and the like that show up in an adventure.
I'm eager to see how folks respond to that. If the rules weren't open content, we'd never do this, but with them being open content and effectively free to access on the internet... does that make it okay to not do full reprints of things like bunyips and witch hexes and sylph inquisitors?
And while it's great to get feedback from folks before the fact... not everyone who reads, say, Carrion Crown will see this (or similar) posts... so it'll probably be until we get into that AP's publication before we start hearing all the feedback. Here's hoping folks are mostly cool with the tradeoff of less reprinted material and more non-core support in adventures!
Like I said, I was trying to confirm before going off and making baseless comments, but was sharing what I heard. I'll assume from your capitalization that the witch is fully statted. I didn't expect differently, as I said, from my experiences with Kingmaker, this did not seem at all true to form for Paizo. Though I will say that doesn't clarify, or strike down, whether or not you need to level the witch, and whether or not the hex information is available in the AP.
I have the rules books also (except for Bestiary 2, but that should be arriving in the mail...yesterday) so it's not going to necessarily be an issue for me. However, I know that for myself, and from the posts I've seen all over these boards, one of the main things that endeared Paizo's fans to them was the claim that they would never assume that anyone had more than the Core Rulebook and Bestiary 1 (as Knight mentioned) and therefore, when putting out adventure material, would make sure anything not covered by those two books would be fully spelled out in the book/pdf/etc., so as no customer would ever feel they were forced to buy more books just to be able to play the game.
Using your Carrion Crown example, feats, spells, magic items, etc., contained in the core 2 books wouldn't need to be reprinted for Paizo to follow what they claimed. But to keep to what they claimed, anything from books outside that, including witch hex descriptions, would, unless Paizo decided to make APG and GMG part of the core. I can't be certain by any means, but isn't that starting down the slope that led to the fall of 3.5 and the need/desire to have Pathfinder rise from those ashes? I think it could lead to a falling out from a lot of the Pathfinder fan base, and I could see it leading to questions such as "How long until we're forced to learn/use Words of Power because x guy in AP y has them in his stat block?" There are people who won't see the question as "...does that make it okay to not do full reprints..." but instead "Why did paizo go back on what they said?".
I can see it from the other side as well, in terms on non-core support in adventures. I mean, I'd be pretty bummed/sad/pissed if I had a full book worth of new options that myself and my team put together but was unable to use them to their full potential in the place where (IMHO) Paizo truly shines brightest: its adventures. Makes you feel like why'd we bother making new material if we can't even use it.
Along with Knight's points about limited/no access to the internet/computers, or desire to have to pore through the net for something they feel they should already have, there are numerous groups who ban computers from their table, especially if the internet is available. Internet can/does provide a large distraction, even for people who are really into a game, and one video of some kids throwing bean bags in the woods yelling "Magic Missile" can devolve into hours of playtime lost.
As for the before the fact feedback, if this post/question was posted in one of the general threads, or maybe on the Paizo blog, I could see it getting much more feedback than sitting in the AP thread. And I think that'll do well to determine just how many people would cry out "Splat Book Bloat" versus those who'd be cool with it.
I really, really don't want to see Paizo or Pathfinder fail. I had a long conversation with Wes at last year's GenCon, during which I thanked him and Paizo for their work on Pathfinder and not letting the game die. Fans feeling like they're being betrayed will be a big hit to both Paizo and Pathfinder. Look what happened to WotC with the advent of 4e. That's not at all to say that you'd be actively trying to betray the fans, or that that was anywhere at all intended...but you've seen enough on these boards to know that it would come up, maybe even more because a lot of the people here may already feel betrayed by a big game company.
For my personal feedback (despite how I can interpret the tone of the rest of my post coming off) I would definitely support and enjoy some non-core love, and I've got the non-core books so I have access to those options. Unfortunately, I'm only one customer.
Not that I was asked, but I do have a suggestion that might make both parties happy, and prevent feeling of betrayal, however, it would likely eat page count like a fat kid near cake. If a character is a supposed to be a non-core class, print that, plus a "core friendly" version next to it. Sure, they won't 100% mechanically match up, but I trust the skilled Paizonians could make it work.
Anyway, that's my take. And my sincere apologies if anyone, Paizo staff or otherwise, takes offense to anything I said. That was not at all my intent. I prefer looking at things from both sides and not withholding information that could help find an amenable solution. I've found it goes a long way toward cooperative understanding. Thanks for your time.
I don't think it is a bad idea - provided it's clear when you buy the product that the "optional" rules are being used and where they can be found.
Firstly, it means that people who have bought the books (probably loyal customers) get more use out of them.
Secondly, the rules are freely available for everybody else. If getting on the internet really is that much of a big deal for some people, they could get somebody else in the group with an internet connection to print the info. Failing that then the group still has the option to club together and buy the book.
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As long as the relevant rules are up on the PRD, go ahead. So, as of now I would be very happy to see APG content without reprints, but I know some people would be irked if you dropped a B2 beastie without having it up online on the PRD.
Also, re: KEJR - the CoT statblock problem happened because the Bestiary (which was originally supposed to appear way before the first issue of CoT) got delayed so that it actually went out after CoT started. Still, there were free "Preview" packages that contained the relevant monsters.
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Personally, I'd love to see the material actually used by the guys who created it.
It always bothered me that WotC cranked out book after book (all of which I bought and still own) of material and then seemed to forget it existed. Made more of an issue since everything was closed content and no one else could use it either.
At the very least Paizo's stuff is available to be used by 3rd party guys, but since it is easily available it should be used. Not a lot, obviously. If a GM absolutely has to be restricted to core it's easy to swap a Witch out for a Wizard or maybe Druid. Whatever. Heck, you could even include a single sentence like, "This NPC can be replaced with a similarly flavored Class X, if you don't have the correct rules available". However swapping out 3 or 4+ in an AP issue would suck.
I do think it's a very rare case for someone to be totally cut off from the internet. There are the options of friends, neighbors, public libraries, internet cafe's. There may be players totally without internet options, but that's going to be a practically negligible number, I think.
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The question I'm the most curious is that, given that APG and the other non-core books are all open content and will be on our own PRD as well as on numerous fan sites...
...how would folks feel if we did put things from the APG and Bestiary 2 and other rulebooks we've published into our adventures without reprinting all the relevant rules? The thing is that, with space at a premium, we're far LESS likely to use material from APG and other books if the perception is that we need to reprint everything.
I am in favor of this. I would want some kind note in each stat block indicating where the abilities come from.
Personally, I'd love to see the material actually used by the guys who created it.
+1
... I don't have a problem with this as long as the AP in question specifically states when it is using something from an outside source (so I don't go crazy hunting through the whole book looking for rules that are not there) with a note to check the online PRD for details AND that the PRD is guaranteed to be updated with the required info BEFORE the AP in question is published.
This is, basically, how I feel about it. Clearly labeled with an up to date PRD.
I get what KEJ is saying and believe it is important to consider, but I think the chances of having someone who both cannot get, or hates the internet to get free stuff, and does not want to buy the requisite book would be an exception to the rule. Also, if they have both of those predicates, then they probably are not a DM.
Additionally, I think we would want Paizo to be both creative and rational when utilizing this method, but I think we expect that from them anyway.
I'd rather you not include APG elements without reprinting them. If you do, the APG is, in every sense that matters, "core."
If I can't pick up and play a Pathfinder AP (Paizo's flagship product!) with the *core* rulebook and the bestiary...how is that not the very definition of rules bloat?
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I'd rather you not include APG elements without reprinting them. If you do, the APG is, in every sense that matters, "core."
If I can't pick up and play a Pathfinder AP (the flagship product) with the *core* rulebook and the bestiary...how is that not the very definition of rules bloat?
You have all the APG rules available freely online. Where's the issue ? If Paizo ever gets within a mile of WotC level of rules bloat, I guess we can call it a problem, but I don't think that will happen soon, if ever.
I am with him here, if all the non core items are not in the book I will not be buying it. Sure I can download the rest of my incomplete product on line and then print out what is missing or lug 2 or 3 extra books along to a game just to use a single NPC or magic item someone got lazy with.
To me it is sloppy and not something I have any interest in paying for.Pitty I was looking forward to CC too, but if they go that route I will not be buying it.
I think anyone paying money for an incomplete product is a fool, so your point? If I am gonna have to print off all the non core items or lug extra books along just to use this adventure.If it is not usable out of the box, but needs extra books or me hunting down and printing large chunks of items to use, Why Am I paying for this product again?
I think anyone paying money for an incomplete product is a fool, so your point? If I am gonna have to print off all the non core items or lug extra books along just to use this adventure.If it is not usable out of the box, but needs extra books or me hunting down and printing large chunks of items to us, Why Am I paying for this product again?
Are you saying that no one at the table will have an APG? Not one?
One person needs to carry an extra book in order for there to be a giant wealth of great extra character options, both for PCs and NPCs. I know gamers aren't stereotypically the fittest people, but seriously? Are you gaming in a nursing home? I would be ashamed to admit I couldn't carry an extra book that probably doesn't even weigh two pounds.
I don't mean to be offensive, but what you're saying seems so ridiculous to me I almost can't believe you're serious.
Nope I do not carry 14 or 15 books with me. I carry the core, all my notes, extra items needed and so on...it comes to about 15-20 pounds, which with my limitations of lifting is really pushing it as is. We do not use labtops in one group and not everyone has all the books. Hell I may not own all the books I now need or need to print off to use something I paid for.
So your saying Everyone must have all the books to use this product? Every player needs all the core+ extra to run a published adventure? BS
If I am buying a complete adventure in book format I want a complete adventure. Not an almost complete one I need to finish. I could do that anyhow without shelling out money for something that is not complete and ready to play.
You seem to be under the impression all gamers have all the books and play at one set place always with unlimited internet access any time they need to look something up and the ablity to print something off all the time.
Nope I do not carry 14 or 15 books with me. I carry the core, all my notes, extra items needed and so on...it comes to about 15-20 pounds, which with my limitations of lifting is really pushing it as is. We do not use labtops in one group and not everyone has all the books.
I'm genuinely sorry to hear that you have difficulty lifting 20 pounds.
So your saying Everyone must have all the books to use this product? Every player needs all the core+ extra to run a published adventure? BS
No, one person. Not everyone.
If I am buying a complete adventure in book format I want a complete adventure. Not an almost complete one I need to finish. I could do that anyhow without telling out money for something that is not complete and ready to play.
The idea is that the stat blocks are complete, but if you want more information on how one of the new class features works you need the book or the PRD to look it up. That's not "an almost complete one you need to finish."
And again your assuming at lest someone owns every one core product. That is a damned high price point, on top of the incomplete product.
And yes it is incomplete, as non core feats and items were brought up as things not being reprinted. If You simply can not run it out of the box with just the 2 core books,it is not complete
And again your assuming at lest someone owns every one core product.
No, I'm not.
The idea is that the stat blocks are complete, but if you want more information on how one of the new class features works you need the book or the PRD to look it up.
You can't tell me that you don't have internet access.
And again your assuming at lest someone owns every one core product. That is a damned high price point, on top of the incomplete product.
And yes it is incomplete, as non core feats and items were brought up as things not being reprinted. If You simply can not run it out of the box with just the 2 core books,it is not complete
They don't need to buy anything - it's on the website for free
I'd rather you not include APG elements without reprinting them. If you do, the APG is, in every sense that matters, "core."
If I can't pick up and play a Pathfinder AP (Paizo's flagship product!) with the *core* rulebook and the bestiary...how is that not the very definition of rules bloat?
By extension if there are additional (non-core/bestiary) rules in the AP then that must also be rules bloat...
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A single AP volume (or module) can not just be played "out of the box" - you need at least the Core Rulebook and Bestiary (or access to the PRD) to play it. Adding a few extra books (such as the APG and Bestiary 2) doesn't make it any less playable - either you get the books you need (or look up the rules on the PRD), or you modify it to use the books you do have.
Either way, however, someone gets excluded. If we use APG or Bestiary 2 material without reprinting the rules, people without the APG or Bestiary 2 AND without internet access don't have all the rules. On the other hand, if we never use APG or Bestiary 2 material, all the people that did by those books OR who have access to the PRD never see those rules in play - so why did they buy those books? The question is which group is the larger group?
Paizo is a business, and we have to print new books to stay in business. That means people will hopefully buy those books. And it seems to me, at least, that we should try to support those books in our other products.
Some books have already gone to print using APG and/or Bestiary 2 material without reprinting the rules. And as James said, we will be looking closely at feedback to see how that is received. If it becomes clear that most people do not want to use these new rules, then we will likely revisit that decision.
Unfortunately, this is a case where we can't have our cake and eat it too. We simply cannot print both "core" and "non-core" versions of stat blocks - it simply takes too much space, and that means the adventures end up being shorter. Some stat blocks (particularly high-level stat blocks in later AP volumes) can take up a page or more. Printing two versions of those stats would then take up 2 to 4 pages, which would then be taken from the adventure.
We are putting a line on the credits page of every AP volume specifically stating which books are needed to run that adventure (you can already see this in Pathfinder #40: Vaults of Madness, which uses rules from the APG and GMG as well as the Core Rulebook and Bestiary), so you're not going to be surprised by new rules content.
And as James said, we will most definitely continue to look for feedback on using these rules in our adventures.
Rob, I understand were you are coming from. However I will not buy any product that the extra non core content it uses is not included. It is simply not a complete product.
I may be in the minority here, but none the less that is how I feel. It is a pity I had not been interested in the last few AP's but CC had me until this. Just a pity.
First off, let me apologize for posting again on this. I usually don't like to post more than once with my opinion, for fear of looking like I'm posting more often thus my opinion should count more. In this case, however, I'd like to clarify something that I probably failed to make clear in my original post.
Let's say we did something that a lot of us think is a good thing . . . we snag someone new to play Pathfinder. Someone new to tabletop RPGs in general.
They have access to the internet. The are just getting their feet wet in the game. They have enough money to buy tons of product, but remember, they have just decided to give this whole thing a whirl.
They find out what they need to do to play the game. They get a Core rulebook and a Bestiary. Okay, two fairly big books, decent price tag for people that are new to the game, but hey, they're pretty and the art is good.
What do I run? Okay, these Adventure Path things are a whole campaign where you just run the adventures from new characters on up. Cool idea, its another six books, but I get that. So I pick these up.
Now the AP has stats for witches, summoners, and oracles in it. And they have class abilities and feats I don't see in the Core rulebook. Oh, I see, the sidebar says I have to go online and reference more rules that I don't already have. Oh, and there aren't even stats for these monsters that make up this encounter. I have to go online for that as well.
After buying the Core Rulebook, the Bestiary, and the first installment of Adventure Path, and I'm fairly new to all of this, is being told to either go online to look up rules going to make more or less likely to pick up the other five installments of the Adventure Path?
On the other hand, if the AP has some monsters in it that are fully stated out and say they are from the Bestiary 2 (but I can run the adventure as is), and there are some summoners or witches that look cool, and I can run the NPC as is, but the class seems kind of cool, maybe I might start picking up the Besiary 2 or the Advanced Player's Guide, at my leisure, when I feel like it, because no one is telling me I have to look up content from them just to run the game.
I have a nice little self contained fully functional preview right in the adventure I'm running.
I think its very easy to get caught up in what your own group of players have or are willing to do, and its easy to forget about people that either do not have an online presence or that are not yet fans. We complain about the hobby not growing, but then, in the interest cramming as much neat new stuff in the books as possible without taking up extra space, we set the bar to entry that much higher.
I appreciate that its hard to juggle how much space Paizo has in these APs to tell a good story. I know they work hard, and they make good stuff. Unfortunately, I think the extra work is worth it, and an important extra step to take.
Finally, if Paizo starts to become dependent on the same customer base for all of their sales instead of keeping an eye out for new players, at what point does the temptation of simply selling an endless series of "one up" products enter the picture? Think "Really Ultimate Combat 2" which introduces the Battlelord that is what you should replace the fighter with because its just so much better . . . I'm not saying this is what Paizo is doing now, or is planning on doing, but that the above route might be one of the ways in which a gaming company that has completely laudable goals might start to go down a path that is undesirable.
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I'd say keep it in the book/AP.
It would be nice to see the new material incorporated into the new books/AP's. I'd like to see the new classes, spells, feats, magic items, and monsters put in. Yes, it would take up more space but they can be put in a little at a time. Not like 4 NPCs are all APG classes in each book. But one new class, item, feat, and/or monster in each book would be rad.
In general my group doesn't have computers, or internet, at the gaming table. I have all the hardbacks so far and a bunch of other books but we do not have a whole Pathfinder catalog between us. I also do not bring all my books with me to the game. I do print out what I will need from the AP itself so I can have all the monster/NPS stat blocks handy.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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The Divine help me... I agree with Bugley.
Either include the full stat block or, at least, reference in the Bestiary I a good substitute. (Replace Bunyip with two Giant Crabs, for example)
Yes, we can go online and get critter stats, and I thank Paizo for that! But... I'd rather you not make the assumption that everyone's going to have internet access, or be near a computer when they DM.
I'd say go for it. I think the number of people who play RPGs AND don't have the books AND don't have access to the internet AT ALL are not that large.
However, I think Paizo should prepare a little something for those without the books and access to the net during play time:
Have a support page for each product that has non-referenced material. Have the URL (or instructions on how to find it) in the book (in a side-bar). Maybe a section that branches off the PRD.
On that page, have two things:
That should make things easier for everyone who doesn't own that stuff. Only the technophobes without the books will be left behind, but you can't please everyone, and I think it's better to support the products than to ignore them, and I'd rather have the modules filled with stuff I have bought already.
Since we're talking mostly about monsters here, you might also have a side bar that gives you alternate monsters if you really can't use the Bestiary 2 monster (or whatever) at all. Stuff like spells that are from extra books should not have a big impact and can just be replaced with anything else if you really can't access that spell.
And NPCs will continue to get full stat blocks, so you don't miss out on the witch or magus goodness at all.
I'd say go for it. I think the number of people who play RPGs AND don't have the books AND don't have access to the internet AT ALL are not that large.
However, I think Paizo should prepare a little something for those without the books and access to the net during play time:
Have a support page for each product that has non-referenced material. Have the URL (or instructions on how to find it) in the book (in a side-bar). Maybe a section that branches off the PRD.
On that page, have two things:
Links to all relevant items (the archetypes in question, the monster, everything).
A PDF that compiles the stuff. Nothing fancy, just the text from the PRD so you can take this PDF and print it out if you don't have access to computers during the game. That should make things easier for everyone who doesn't own that stuff. Only the technophobes without the books will be left behind, but you can't please everyone, and I think it's better to support the products than to ignore them, and I'd rather have the modules filled with stuff I have bought already.
Since we're talking mostly about monsters here, you might also have a side bar that gives you alternate monsters if you really can't use the Bestiary 2 monster (or whatever) at all. Stuff like spells that are from extra books should not have a big impact and can just be replaced with anything else if you really can't access that spell.
And NPCs will continue to get full stat blocks, so you don't miss out on the witch or magus goodness at all.
While they might still save physical space in the books, I'm pretty sure doing those extra "helper" things would actually create more work than reprinting the full stats or explanations of class abilities.
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Unfortunately, this is a case where we can't have our cake and eat it too. We simply cannot print both "core" and "non-core" versions of stat blocks - it simply takes too much space, and that means the adventures end up being shorter. Some stat blocks (particularly high-level stat blocks in later AP volumes) can take up a page or more. Printing two versions of those stats would then take up 2 to 4 pages, which would then be taken from the adventure.
Yeah, I did figure on that being a problem and mentioned how it would eat up the page count. However,
Either include the full stat block or, at least, reference in the Bestiary I a good substitute. (Replace Bunyip with two Giant Crabs, for example)
and
Heck, you could even include a single sentence like, "This NPC can be replaced with a similarly flavored Class X, if you don't have the correct rules available".
seem like they'd do roughly the same thing and be a more viable and page-saving option. At that point, your gripes will come from GMs who have to stat out that new character if it bothers them so much.
I think anything from a non-rulebook book (companions, chronicles, etc) should have full stats/rules included. Anything from the rulebook line that has been added to the online PRD should be fair game. Yes, it might require a little more prep time for some people. As it is, I do something similar with most adventures I run. I've been converting a lot of older adventures for my game, so I build a 2-4 page cheat sheet for the night's play of stats for monsters/npcs that are likely to be encountered.
I totally understand the desire to reduce what you need to bring. I also think that it would be silly not to continue to use the expanded information in the bestiaries for adventures. What's the point of giving daemons stats if they rarely show up due to space constraints?
The Divine help me... I agree with Bugley.
Either include the full stat block or, at least, reference in the Bestiary I a good substitute. (Replace Bunyip with two Giant Crabs, for example)
Yes, we can go online and get critter stats, and I thank Paizo for that! But... I'd rather you not make the assumption that everyone's going to have internet access, or be near a computer when they DM.
I really like the idea of the replace suggestion.
Doug
I believe that in this day and age the assumption that a given group/DM will have access to the internet should be a given. Yes, some will not, but i think the products should assume so. Since the Bestiary2 and APG are open content, i feel that Paizo should freely make use of them in their products. Abbreviated stat blocks with a book/page reference frees up space for additional content in the same product, which i for one would welcome. Listing alternate creatures for any/every encounter seems a waste of space to me. I would very much not like to see that.
The Divine help me... I agree with Bugley.
Either include the full stat block or, at least, reference in the Bestiary I a good substitute. (Replace Bunyip with two Giant Crabs, for example)
I have to agree with both of these points.
I have all of the rules you have put out, but having to try and remember (or carry with me) all of them when I run is not really a welcome option.
I do enjoy when you use things from non-core sources (be they APG/B2 or a 3PP) as a flavorful NPC or beast. But only because I know the stats and rules are going to be right there in the adventure to run as is. It's nice to use variety for spice, but overuse IMO ruins the specialness of seeing them.
A single AP volume (or module) can not just be played "out of the box" - you need at least the Core Rulebook and Bestiary (or access to the PRD) to play it. Adding a few extra books (such as the APG and Bestiary 2) doesn't make it any less playable - either you get the books you need (or look up the rules on the PRD), or you modify it to use the books you do have.
Increasing the number of books required absolutely makes it "less playable" if you don't have those books! Sure, one could re-do a bunch of the work. But that kinda defeats the purpose, you know? This is a clear decrease in usability for those who lack (or do not wish to use) the supplements. Assertions to the contrary seem kinda...surreal.
Either way, however, someone gets excluded. If we use APG or Bestiary 2 material without reprinting the rules, people without the APG or Bestiary 2 AND without internet access don't have all the rules. On the other hand, if we never use APG or Bestiary 2 material, all the people that did by those books OR who have access to the PRD never see those rules in play - so why did they buy those books? The question is which group is the larger group?
Paizo is a business, and we have to print new books to stay in business. That means people will hopefully buy those books. And it seems to me, at least, that we should try to support those books in our other products.
Some books have already gone to print using APG and/or Bestiary 2 material without reprinting the rules. And as James said, we will be looking closely at feedback to see how that is received. If it becomes clear that most people do not want to use these new rules, then we will likely revisit that decision.
Unfortunately, this is a case where we can't have our cake and eat it too. We simply cannot print both "core" and "non-core" versions of stat blocks - it simply takes too much space, and that means the adventures end up being shorter. Some stat blocks (particularly high-level stat blocks in later AP volumes) can take up a page or more. Printing two versions of those stats would then take up 2 to 4 pages, which would then be taken from the adventure.
We are putting a line on the credits page of every AP volume specifically stating which books are needed to run that adventure (you can already see this in Pathfinder #40: Vaults of Madness, which uses rules from the APG and GMG as well as the Core Rulebook and Bestiary), so you're not going to be surprised by new rules content.
And as James said, we will most definitely continue to look for feedback on using these rules in our adventures.
I hate to say I told you so,* but...I told you so. As soon as I saw the Core Rulebook go crazy at Gencon I knew the bloat temptation would be difficult to resist. I suspect I'm in the minority, but I prefer to run core-only games. I was OK with bloat as long as I could largely ignore it, but the inclusion of supplementary material the Pathfinder monthly would really curtail the usability of that product for me. C'est la vie, and in any event thanks for listening.
* Almost certainly a lie. ;)
Edit: I get the "it's a business" thing -- but I don't think Paizo would be in danger of going out of business if you guys stuck mostly to setting material and adventures. You'd probably make less money, especially in the short term, but being a business seems beside the point.
Was going to write something longer, but simply I will like to see future products used in APs with proper references.
I removed a couple posts. I realize this is an issue near and dear to some people's hearts, but there is no reason to attack one another.
As Rob pointed out, we can't have our cake and eat it too. If we never use content from additional books, or always reprint it in its entirety, we upset people who want to get some use out of their new books (and use up valuable space). If we use it but only give page references, we upset people who don't want to refer to too many books.
One of the ways we try to solve this dilemma is by making content available for free online with the PRD. I understand that not everyone has internet access at the gaming table, but there is nothing stopping you from printing out a few pages from the PRD and slipping them into your GM's notes for an adventure.