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Among my current PFS groups, it often seems like the characters aren't even Pathfinder Society members. Instead they are just members of their faction along for the ride so they can complete their faction mission. The worst usually is when a player forgets details about the adventure they are playing in (because it wasn't important for their faction mission) or when a player gets so focused on completing a faction mission that they ignore the actual Pathfinder mission (or leave it for party members to complete).
There are a few PFS scenarios that have missions that exacerbate the problem by having certain faction tell their members to go off and attack the Pathfinder Society. I feel they are incredibly inappropriate for groups that don't want to piss of the Pathfinder Society.
Your mission from Cheliax: Make sure those documents get to Cheliax.
Unlike the prior adventure, there isn't a revelation that makes it reasonable for a Pathfinder Society member to do this. Just +1 PA for betraying the Pathfinder Society.
This faction mission kills the adventure for me. While it fits as something Cheliax might want, I can't see how this fits for anyone who is actually loyal to the Pathfinder Society.
Given my experiences running and playing through these adventures, if a faction mission asked for the character to shoot a Venture-Captain with a crossbow bolt, then that character would be shot a couple of sentences into the adventure preamble every time it was run.
Because of that, I really think that faction missions like the ones above should be absent from all scenarios. The characters are supposed to be members of the Pathfinder Society, not traitors trying to bring it down for their faction.
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Because of that, I really think that faction missions like the ones above should be absent from all scenarios. The characters are supposed to be members of the Pathfinder Society, not traitors trying to bring it down for their faction.
This was a very interesting situation for me at GenCon. There were two other Andorans at the table playing #51. One told me outright he didn't think he felt it was appropriate but was willing to talk first and kill second if he felt it was justified, I agreed. The other was a Paladin so we didn't even include him in the talk about killing, just about talking. :) I told him that Captain Maldris had never been anything but truthful to me and if he said 'so and so' was an enemy of Andoran and needed to be put to the sword, then the sword it shall be. In retrospect he was absolutely correct and we acted not only in the best interest of Andoran, but the Society as well!
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Because of that, I really think that faction missions like the ones above should be absent from all scenarios. The characters are supposed to be members of the Pathfinder Society, not traitors trying to bring it down for their faction.This was a very interesting situation for me at GenCon. There were two other Andorans at the table playing #51. One told me outright he didn't think he felt it was appropriate but was willing to talk first and kill second if he felt it was justified, I agreed. The other was a Paladin so we didn't even include him in the talk about killing, just about talking. :) I told him that Captain Maldris had never been anything but truthful to me and if he said 'so and so' was an enemy of Andoran and needed to be put to the sword, then the sword it shall be. In retrospect he was absolutely correct and we acted not only in the best interest of Andoran, but the Society as well!
I love moral quandaries like this. I believe it was established a while ago that characters are not intended to earn every PA. I am okay with having to walk away from some of my faction missions.
That said, the characters that choose to 'take the high road' shouldn't always be screwed. Perhaps occasionally willfully disobeying a faction mission should end up earning you bonus PA due to powerful members of your factions appreciating your free thinking.
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I didn't look at the mission in question since I'm playing that scenario in two weeks, but I had to throw in one of the faction goals that bugged me.
Spoilers for The Many Fortunes of Grandmaster Torch:
But not only was the mission too vague, the second part of the mission required the PC to frame the group he is travelling with, a band known to be Pathfinders, as foreign spies.
Not only does this damage the reputation of the Pathfinder society, but it directly frames the rest of the party for something. While there is no real repercussions for this in the scenario and no way to enforce this "continuity" once the group leaves, "in the moment" you are working against both the Pathfinder society and directly against your fellow PCs in that goal.
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In another thread I wrote:
Lastly, and slightly off topic, I have seen several faction missions (not my faction) which basically is turning the Pathfinders into an Assassins Guild. 'Go out and kill Mr. Burns'. To me that is very different from 'reports say a troll is attacking Hobbits on the East Road. Do your best to stop them.' As an Andoran, I'm not suppose to look the other way when someone is going to be assassinated. I should try to bring them to justice. But I can't because that promotes player vs player. This isn't a problem specifically with the PA system, but the missions that the authors are writing.
No Player versus Player Combat: The goal of Pathfinder Society Organized Play is to provide an enjoyable experience for as many players as possible. Player versus player conflict only sours a session.
With the several missions that I have experienced--Assassinating fellow Pathfinders, and other faction missions that appose each other--these are all elements that promote Player vs. Player conflict. It seems that is the very intent of the some of the writers.
-Swiftbrook
Just My Thoughts
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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As Mark mentioned, this has been an ongoing topic of discussion in our weekly (really more often than that, lately) PFS meetings, and it is something that we are aware of and will be taking steps to sort out.
We all like the faction system, but there is clearly some tinkering that remains to be done, and the whole thing could use a healthy dose of improvement.
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I guess I just can't request, enough times, some kind of opt-out that doesn't leave the character completely screwed. The thing I really hate most is how you have to play the faction game to get ahead. I do understand that there are players who have fun with the whole thing, but I'm not one of them and I know I'm not the only one.
I'm also going to continue to be very vocal about the fact that I feel like players are NOT encouraged to be Pathfinders first. The entire PA system works against that very assumption. There needs to be mechanical reason for the players to be loyal to the Society first.
The PA system as we know it could be shifted to something that works inside the Society with Venture-Captais asking for little favors here and there based on their own personal interests (which could be quite varied inside the Society itself) and then with a secondary faction system which might allow some purchase of a regional boon at the start of a given module.
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That said, the characters that choose to 'take the high road' shouldn't always be screwed. Perhaps occasionally willfully disobeying a faction mission should end up earning you bonus PA due to powerful members of your factions appreciating your free thinking.
The possibility of this is actually why I am most disappointed with the "against the grain" missions (Andoran's assassinating and such).
If these *didn't* exist, I could easily imagine the occasional (or one entire scenario) where the faction missions are scrambled or faked (perhaps with some clue) and they only get the PA for ignoring or countering the written mission.
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The possibility of this is actually why I am most disappointed with the "against the grain" missions (Andoran's assassinating and such).
Yeah, there have been a few "ironic" missions that I haven't liked. If you join a faction because its, say, NG, you expect that most of the missions can be accomplished by characters of that alignment without too many moral qualms.
However, even for a Neutral faction like Qadira:
(Spoilers for Many Fortunes of Grandmaster Torch)
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I actually like the factions. I think they do a good job of introducing a greater portion of the campaign setting than just the Pathfinder Society and the location of the mission would on its own. That having been said, I would have liked it if your prestige award might come 1 from the PFS for completing a goal and another 1 potential one for completing a side mission for your faction.
And I agree that some are much more of a time sink than I think people realize at first glance.
Spoilers for The Devil We Know II: Cassomir's Locker
Most people going into a building will take time to check for traps, and search around for anything else that might be important to the plot, because why would any adventure only include these abandoned buildings just to count Xs in them, and not include anything else important in them?
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Unfortunately, everyone involved in the decision making progress has been quite vocal about the fact that this won't happen, at least without permanently retiring every single scenario published up to the point where it's implemented with no conversions ever to be made.
Which is a shame, because the factions were a mistake pretty much for this reason - there's no way to make them "relevant" without turning the Society itself into a joke in the long run.
Everyone in the decision making process has been quite vocal that we like the faction system and want to see it work as well as possible, which includes allowing for people to be Pathfinders first and foremost. I am saving this quote, by the way, as your assertion that there's "no way" to make them relevant is not only extremely fatalistic, but it doesn't take into account several of the solutions we've already come up with.
I'm a huge fan of factions, I just think they haven't been handled as elegantly as they could be. We're going to be looking at ways to change that going forward. We've had more than a few discussions about factions, their role, where we've dropped the ball, and how we can make them not only relevant, but cool. We've also talked about what the Pathfinder Society (in-game) is, what it stands for, and how it's perceived (both in and out of game). In fact, I was just looking at an outline for a book I wish I could spoil the title of that will address many of the complaints brought up in this thread. :)
Hyrum.
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The title wouldn't happen to be The Pathfinder Society Field Guide would it?
I thought of that one as soon as I read Hyrum's post as well. ;)
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Creative Director
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The title wouldn't happen to be The Pathfinder Society Field Guide would it?I'm a huge fan of factions, I just think they haven't been handled as elegantly as they could be. We're going to be looking at ways to change that going forward. We've had more than a few discussions about factions, their role, where we've dropped the ball, and how we can make them not only relevant, but cool. We've also talked about what the Pathfinder Society (in-game) is, what it stands for, and how it's perceived (both in and out of game). In fact, I was just looking at an outline for a book I wish I could spoil the title of that will address many of the complaints brought up in this thread. :)
Hyrum.
Huh. What an interesting idea to use that book to address some of these issues! ;-P
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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We can't force anyone to read anything, really, but I'm confident that people will want the Field Guide (or whatever the book Hyrum was talking about) and won't have any problem with checking it out and reading it.
The Guide to Organized Play needs significant, serious revision as well, and a lot of stuff will be covered there.
Hey Erik, Hyrum, Mark, anybody at Paizo, would it be possible to have a sticky in this forum where folks can post the kinds of changes and/or additions to the Guide that they think would help the PFS grow and run smoother?
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I'm a huge fan of factions, I just think they haven't been handled as elegantly as they could be. We're going to be looking at ways to change that going forward. We've had more than a few discussions about factions, their role, where we've dropped the ball, and how we can make them not only relevant, but cool. We've also talked about what the Pathfinder Society (in-game) is, what it stands for, and how it's perceived (both in and out of game). In fact, I was just looking at an outline for a book I wish I could spoil the title of that will address many of the complaints brought up in this thread. :)
Hyrum.
Hilarious timing, Hyrum. I was reading your post and got to about the second sentence and began reflecting on how DGross took care of this whole society vs faction issue in his wonderful book. It was ELEGANT: clearly the main character is both a dedicated pathfinder as well as a true-blood in Chelaxian circles. Then you pop out the bit about another book coming along soon that will help. Must be a different book, but it's the same principle. Much like judges, we look to that which has already been done to guide our decisions for the present...I suggest we get Dave Gross into this discussion and perhaps his vision for factions can guide us.
Great thread by the way, Blazej!
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I do think that faction missions are a great addition to the game and should not be abolished. That being said, I have had a few problems with players focusing so much on their faction missions that the main goal became an afterthought.
A quick and easy fix, in my opinion, would be to go back to just one mission per scenario but make it a bit more difficult. The character then gets one point for completing the scenario successfully, and another for completing their faction mission.
This solution would keep in line with the characters being Pathfinders first, but still having loyalty to their factions.
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While a lot of folks like the factions, I for one would love the option of belonging to NO faction - in other words, putting the Pathfinder Society first. Sure, it messes with the existing PA system, but if you're making changes anyway... really, it's just adding another "faction" whose goals are more aligned with the group mission. You'd have to make sure it's not easier to be a non-aligned Pathfinder than a member of a faction, of course.
Pathfinder Society would be very cool to belong to, if only it wasn't made totally irrelevant by the factions. Of course, I guess I could just not gain any prestige... maybe if I ever get to play instead of GM I'll do that.
Hey, then the items on the Chronicle sheet will mean something, too! two birds with one stone! :)
(Yes, I know, lots of people like factions, and they won't be going away.)
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While a lot of folks like the factions, I for one would love the option of belonging to NO faction - in other words, putting the Pathfinder Society first. Sure, it messes with the existing PA system, but if you're making changes anyway... really, it's just adding another "faction" whose goals are more aligned with the group mission. You'd have to make sure it's not easier to be a non-aligned Pathfinder than a member of a faction, of course.
+1
Create 'No Faction' mission and earn a PA for extra Society stuff. You know, creating a map, retrieving something extra for the Society. It could even be a non-written mission. Maybe there is one or a few objects in the adventure that the Society would like. It's the characters responsibility to recognize their importance/value and and collect them for the society without being asked. They are rewarded for their dedication and insight with PA.
-Swiftbrook
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Perhaps making a change where no one gets ANY Prestiege Awards unless the Pathfinder mission is a success is in order. Also, make it so that NO XP is awarded if the Pathfinder mission isn't successful (instead of completing a majority of encounters). These two changes alone would go a long way towards resetting some faction-fanatics' priorities I'd guess.
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make it so that NO XP is awarded if the Pathfinder mission isn't successful (instead of completing a majority of encounters)
Not saying that I disagree with you on this, but this would be a problem at conventions. Very often scenarios don't get completed under time constraints, often as a result of short time slots or poorly playtested scenarios (in addition to GM's losing track of time). I would hate to see a group lose XP simply because of a long-running scenario.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I actually always viewed it as my character infiltrating the Pathfinders Society for my faction. Sure you need to do the Pathfinder mission to stay in the society, but you really are more loyal to your faction.
And I'm playing Gilad Halakhah, a dwarf Inquisitor who has taken the opposite stance: if his Osirion faction liason gives him a mission that suggests a likely encounter, Gilad will cue the rest of the team, keeping nothing secret if it serves the party.
"I am indeed devoted to my adopted country of Osirion, and to its greater glory, and too am I a loyal Pathfinder. But today, I am foremost your companion, dedicated to keeping all of us alive, and to meeting our objectives. If my priorities were anywhere else, I would be unworthy of your trust."
I look forward to the day where Gilad might meet your character, Atrius, and to see how they might resolve these matters.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Not giving XP isn't something I want to do unless a character dies. As it is, wealth progression is tied to the assumption that you go up a level after playing in three scenarios. If the rate of advancement slowed due to people playing scenarios and not getting XP for it, they'd have more treasure than they should for their level. I'd also worry that players would purposely throw missions so they could get more than 33 scenarios in under their PCs' belt before hitting 12th level.
All that said, we've had this same discussion in our many meetings in making PFS work better, and Erik suggested a solution that works very elegantly and should ease people's minds. We're not ready to announce any changes until everything's in place and we can roll them all out at once, though, so we ask for some patience as we get our ducks in a row. Thanks for the feedback, all.
so we ask for some patience as we get our ducks in a row.Paizo has ducks?
Half-golem ducks with the advanced template.
:D
Hyrum.
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Not giving XP isn't something I want to do unless a character dies. As it is, wealth progression is tied to the assumption that you go up a level after playing in three scenarios.
I was assuming that a failed mission meant no rewards. Failure = goose egg on your chronicle sheet.
Yeah, it would suck to fail a mission and get nothing for your time, but to my mind, it would pale in comparison to a character death and the wealth setback that can cause.
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Thanks for quacking me up...
Half-golem ducks with the advanced template.:D
Hyrum.
Yeah, those pesky ducks - they delayed Paizocon dates announcement last year too
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I actually always viewed it as my character infiltrating the Pathfinders Society for my faction. Sure you need to do the Pathfinder mission to stay in the society, but you really are more loyal to your faction.
I tend to view the factions of my characters as a form of Labor Union. It's there to protect my interests and reward my diligence so long as I meet their goals. This allows me to be as close or as distant from my faction as I need, while still being able to perform essential job functions for my 'employer' (The Society).
I know this may seem a bit odd, but ever since reading Seeker of Secrets, I have actually been less comfortable viewing myself as a member of the society. Specifically the monastic application/training/initiate process which makes me feel constrained when trying to background my affiliation with religion A / faction B, or possess any chaotic alignment C.
I understand that PFS did not desire the Society to become a mob of loose-knit adventurers out for themselves and damning all others, but the fluff made it seem like you couldn't become a member unless you were willing to drink the special kool-aid and put on a snuggie.
Preemptive Note: I am aware of the sidebar on SoS page 7, but I would rather steer myself away from snowflake syndrome.